Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "Abadia, Teos" <Teos.Abadia@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:01:35 -0400
> ----------
> I've read through so much card text in the last week (finishing Second
> Run) that my head is a mess.
> Jim N.
> ~!~!~!~!~!
>
Then you probably don't want to hear this, but I have some concerns
about the changes being made to some spell cards in second run. I would
love to talk to you about the perception you have about the role of
mages in the game. I realize you are busy, but if you get the time, I
would love a reply, however short it might be. I am cc-ing this to the
list as well, to see how everyone else feels.

I keep hearing that spell cards that don't rely on a die roll will be
changed to use a die roll. I really am against this, as I strongly
believe that more consistancy is needed to make magical decks
attractive. Right now, odds are against mage decks winning. Below I
rant on some of the reasons I think mage/shamen decks don't consistantly
measure up to "big thug" decks. i would love to hear your feelings on
the perceptions I have, even if you strongly disagree.

I have been trying to build a mage deck for quite some time. I have one
that favors shamans, one that favors hermetics, and one that mixes both
types of magicians. In all cases, I have real trouble building a deck
that can be a clear winner. The decks are good, but I just can't count
on them to win, even after considerable time spent on the deck strategy.

I see four main reasons for this:

1. Awakened runners are cheap, but require gear to become powerful and
form a capable runner team. When you factor in the gear, their cost can
match some other non-magical runners, but the final stats (mage plus
gear) aren't much better. This shouldn't be the case, since it is
harder to match up cards than to just deploy a non-magical runner.

2. Sleazing can't be relied upon, since there are too many skills that
mages are lacking. If mages/shamen had a wider selection of skills, and
had more skilss per runner, sleazing alone could bring magical decks up
to a competitive level with big thug decks. As it stands, sleazing can
help, but it is rare that you can get past more than one challenge if
your runner plays the typical "hard to beat challenges" that rely on
piloting, demolitions, technical, and gunnery (highway showdown, big
chase, fusion gate, mine field, maglocks, etc.). Sleazing
opportuinities come mostly from the spell cards.

3. Spells often are fate-controlled. Spells often work only on a
certain die roll, like Sleep. The problem is, a mage/shaman deck can't
absorb that much damage, and often faces formidable challenges. These
challenges are the same ones that might take out a Torgo,
Skwraaaaaaark!, and two other support runners! When a mage/shaman team
runs, the player has often spent many turns collecting the right spell
gear. When that gear fails, the team often perishes, and recovery time
is to great, allowing a muscle deck to quickly win the game.

4. Healing spirits takes too long. Riggers share the same problem, but
riggers often have better defensive stats. Shamen often have a low
threat rating. They need spirits for offense, and also for defense.
Even so, it is quite common that both the runner and spirit will take
damage. As I understand it, when the next legwork phase begins, the
runner may turn to heal, or may turn to heal the spirit, but may not do
both. This means that the runner must spend one round to heal, plus an
additional round for each spirit. Even with biotech, this becomes a
real problem. When you pay 4 for a shaman and 4 for a spirit, your
stats match those of other equally expensive runners. However, you
usually don't have armor, have to turn to heal your gear, and have to
match the cards in the first place. These disadvantages again favor
muscle decks. Add in the way any cards that target a runner affect the
runner but not the spirit, and the usefulness of spirits in comparison
to "big thug" runners becomes even more reduced.

In the RPG, mages usually add a crucial set of powers to a muscle team.
In the CCG, a deck can't afford to throw in a couple of mages/shamen and
a couple of magical gear cards, since the odds are that the right
combination won't be drawn. Because of this, decks that use mages,
shamen, and magical gear must use those cards in significant portions.
Even then, these decks don't measure up against "big thug" attack decks.
They can and do win, but if you were playing to win, the odds are
against magical decks.

Thanks for reading. I look forward to your take on this, and the ideas
of the list as well. I really like the awakened cards, and really do use
my awakened decks often. I just would like to see them win more often!

Teos Abadia
http://www.duke.edu/~tsa1/Shadowrun/index.html
http://www.duke.edu/~tsa1/pers/roleplay.html
Message no. 2
From: "Ken Dirk (DrugDoc)" <dirkkenn@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:24:57 -0700
Abadia, Teos wrote:
<snip>

> 4. Healing spirits takes too long. Riggers share the same problem, but
> riggers often have better defensive stats. Shamen often have a low
> threat rating. They need spirits for offense, and also for defense.
> Even so, it is quite common that both the runner and spirit will take
> damage. As I understand it, when the next legwork phase begins, the
> runner may turn to heal, or may turn to heal the spirit, but may not do
> both.

Actually, I think that the runner technically has to turn to heal BEFORE
the legwork phase begins. Page 50 of the itty bitty rulebook puts
healing runners under step 3 (the refresh phase). The timing could be
important.

Ken Dirk (DrugDoc)
Message no. 3
From: JD <germany@*****************.COM>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:24:47 -0600
>I keep hearing that spell cards that don't rely on a die roll will be
>changed to use a die roll. I really am against this, as I strongly
>believe that more consistancy is needed to make magical decks
>attractive. Right now, odds are against mage decks winning.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is too difficult to get the cards out to do
anything.
<snip>

>I have been trying to build a mage deck for quite some time. I have
one
>that favors shamans, one that favors hermetics, and one that mixes both
>types of magicians. In all cases, I have real trouble building a deck
>that can be a clear winner. The decks are good, but I just can't count
>on them to win, even after considerable time spent on the deck
strategy.

I once built a mage/shaman deck that was retired undefeted, but since
then I have not been able to build one that can win even half of the
time. (and unfortunately, I have taken apart the killer deck.)

<snip>

>2. Sleazing can't be relied upon, since there are too many skills that
>mages are lacking. If mages/shamen had a wider selection of skills,
and
>had more skilss per runner, sleazing alone could bring magical decks up
>to a competitive level with big thug decks. As it stands, sleazing can
>help, but it is rare that you can get past more than one challenge if
>your runner plays the typical "hard to beat challenges" that rely on
>piloting, demolitions, technical, and gunnery (highway showdown, big
>chase, fusion gate, mine field, maglocks, etc.). Sleazing
>opportuinities come mostly from the spell cards.
>
I think that in my killer mage deck I had a couple of deckers to
recon(Static/Kracker Jack) to help with the sleazing, but I agree that a
well equipped mage team will not come home well equipped most of the
time.

>3. Spells often are fate-controlled. Spells often work only on a
>certain die roll, like Sleep. The problem is, a mage/shaman deck can't
>absorb that much damage, and often faces formidable challenges. These
>challenges are the same ones that might take out a Torgo,
>Skwraaaaaaark!, and two other support runners! When a mage/shaman team
>runs, the player has often spent many turns collecting the right spell
>gear. When that gear fails, the team often perishes, and recovery time
>is to great, allowing a muscle deck to quickly win the game.
>
Drawing the right spells out with Hermetic Library or other cards are
just as chancey. You never know if the location will come out of your
deck. Also, adding too many "helper" cards (locations, LoTI, DejaVu)
makes the deck too big and unplayable.

<snip>
>In the RPG, mages usually add a crucial set of powers to a muscle team.
>In the CCG, a deck can't afford to throw in a couple of mages/shamen
and
>a couple of magical gear cards, since the odds are that the right
>combination won't be drawn. Because of this, decks that use mages,
>shamen, and magical gear must use those cards in significant portions.
>Even then, these decks don't measure up against "big thug" attack
decks.
>They can and do win, but if you were playing to win, the odds are
>against magical decks.


Again, I agree wholeheartedly. The reason I like this card game is
because of how much it resembles (resembled?) the RPG. Other card games
are not as interesting because they don't have that second level.
Making mages/shamen less powerful is contrary to the whole direction
that the RPG is going. If anything, mages/shamen should get some kind
of expansion specifically for them with insect totems, odd spellcasting
abilities, drain rules, foci, etc. (Ala Awakenings, Grimoire and SRII).

I hope that the card game doesn't move too far from the RPG. I may have
to stop playing.

Jon Doud
germany@*****************.com
Message no. 4
From: David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:47:33 -0700
Teos Abadia wrote:
>I have been trying to build a mage deck for quite some time. I have one
>that favors shamans, one that favors hermetics, and one that mixes both
>types of magicians. In all cases, I have real trouble building a deck
>that can be a clear winner. The decks are good, but I just can't count
>on them to win, even after considerable time spent on the deck strategy.
>
>I see four main reasons for this:
>
>1. Awakened runners are cheap, but require gear to become powerful and
>form a capable runner team. When you factor in the gear, their cost can
>match some other non-magical runners, but the final stats (mage plus
>gear) aren't much better. This shouldn't be the case, since it is
>harder to match up cards than to just deploy a non-magical runner.
>
>2. Sleazing can't be relied upon, since there are too many skills that
>mages are lacking. If mages/shamen had a wider selection of skills, and
>had more skilss per runner, sleazing alone could bring magical decks up
>to a competitive level with big thug decks. As it stands, sleazing can
>help, but it is rare that you can get past more than one challenge if
>your runner plays the typical "hard to beat challenges" that rely on
>piloting, demolitions, technical, and gunnery (highway showdown, big
>chase, fusion gate, mine field, maglocks, etc.). Sleazing
>opportuinities come mostly from the spell cards.
>
>3. Spells often are fate-controlled. Spells often work only on a
>certain die roll, like Sleep. The problem is, a mage/shaman deck can't
>absorb that much damage, and often faces formidable challenges. These
>challenges are the same ones that might take out a Torgo,
>Skwraaaaaaark!, and two other support runners! When a mage/shaman team
>runs, the player has often spent many turns collecting the right spell
>gear. When that gear fails, the team often perishes, and recovery time
>is to great, allowing a muscle deck to quickly win the game.
>
>4. Healing spirits takes too long. Riggers share the same problem, but
>riggers often have better defensive stats. Shamen often have a low
>threat rating. They need spirits for offense, and also for defense.
>Even so, it is quite common that both the runner and spirit will take
>damage. As I understand it, when the next legwork phase begins, the
>runner may turn to heal, or may turn to heal the spirit, but may not do
>both. This means that the runner must spend one round to heal, plus an
>additional round for each spirit. Even with biotech, this becomes a
>real problem. When you pay 4 for a shaman and 4 for a spirit, your
>stats match those of other equally expensive runners. However, you
>usually don't have armor, have to turn to heal your gear, and have to
>match the cards in the first place. These disadvantages again favor
>muscle decks. Add in the way any cards that target a runner affect the
>runner but not the spirit, and the usefulness of spirits in comparison
>to "big thug" runners becomes even more reduced.
>
I've never built a mage deck (they have the offense but not the defense),
but before Underworld came out I had a shaman deck that was quite effective
(I haven't played it since Underworld came out, so I can't comment on its
play with respect to the new cards). It generally came out quickly due to
the inclusion of Shade, who gets his first spirit free. It did well on
runs because the spirits could absorb a lot of damage for the runners, and
even if I lost some spirits/runners, they were cheap to replace. As for
healing, the inclusion of Hawkwind and Moon Shadow allowed me to heal
runners between challenges to extend runs and also allowed runners to focus
their healing on their spirits and not themselves. Most times, I had taken
two objectives before my opponents were ready to start their first run. It
was just a matter of holding them off a while longer until I could put the
game away.

David
Message no. 5
From: hansen <hansen@********.COM.SG>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:17:57 +0800
>Teos Abadia wrote:
>>I have been trying to build a mage deck for quite some time. I have one
>>that favors shamans, one that favors hermetics, and one that mixes both
>>types of magicians. In all cases, I have real trouble building a deck
>>that can be a clear winner. The decks are good, but I just can't count
>>on them to win, even after considerable time spent on the deck strategy.
>>
>>I see four main reasons for this:
>>
>>1. Awakened runners are cheap, but require gear to become powerful and
>>form a capable runner team. When you factor in the gear, their cost can
>>match some other non-magical runners, but the final stats (mage plus
>>gear) aren't much better. This shouldn't be the case, since it is
>>harder to match up cards than to just deploy a non-magical runner.

Most make are cheap but together they have no fixed purpose but try to just
bash through challenges which huge thugs are the best at.

>>2. Sleazing can't be relied upon, since there are too many skills that
>>mages are lacking. If mages/shamen had a wider selection of skills, and
>>had more skilss per runner, sleazing alone could bring magical decks up
>>to a competitive level with big thug decks. As it stands, sleazing can
>>help, but it is rare that you can get past more than one challenge if
>>your runner plays the typical "hard to beat challenges" that rely on
>>piloting, demolitions, technical, and gunnery (highway showdown, big
>>chase, fusion gate, mine field, maglocks, etc.). Sleazing
>>opportuinities come mostly from the spell cards.

The best sleazers are not magicians, most don't have more than 2 skills and
they are very lacking in Tech, Demo, Gunnery and Piloting.

>>3. Spells often are fate-controlled. Spells often work only on a
>>certain die roll, like Sleep. The problem is, a mage/shaman deck can't
>>absorb that much damage, and often faces formidable challenges. These
>>challenges are the same ones that might take out a Torgo,
>>Skwraaaaaaark!, and two other support runners! When a mage/shaman team
>>runs, the player has often spent many turns collecting the right spell
>>gear. When that gear fails, the team often perishes, and recovery time
>>is to great, allowing a muscle deck to quickly win the game.

Most spells require dice. Sigh...

>>4. Healing spirits takes too long. Riggers share the same problem, but
>>riggers often have better defensive stats. Shamen often have a low
>>threat rating. They need spirits for offense, and also for defense.
>>Even so, it is quite common that both the runner and spirit will take
>>damage. As I understand it, when the next legwork phase begins, the
>>runner may turn to heal, or may turn to heal the spirit, but may not do
>>both. This means that the runner must spend one round to heal, plus an
>>additional round for each spirit. Even with biotech, this becomes a
>>real problem. When you pay 4 for a shaman and 4 for a spirit, your
>>stats match those of other equally expensive runners. However, you
>>usually don't have armor, have to turn to heal your gear, and have to
>>match the cards in the first place. These disadvantages again favor
>>muscle decks. Add in the way any cards that target a runner affect the
>>runner but not the spirit, and the usefulness of spirits in comparison
>>to "big thug" runners becomes even more reduced.

Yup... Tempest is about the only magician I can think of that can go with
almost any deck as he? has a cool inbuilt ability...

>I've never built a mage deck (they have the offense but not the defense),
>but before Underworld came out I had a shaman deck that was quite effective
>(I haven't played it since Underworld came out, so I can't comment on its
>play with respect to the new cards). It generally came out quickly due to
>the inclusion of Shade, who gets his first spirit free. It did well on
>runs because the spirits could absorb a lot of damage for the runners, and
>even if I lost some spirits/runners, they were cheap to replace. As for
>healing, the inclusion of Hawkwind and Moon Shadow allowed me to heal
>runners between challenges to extend runs and also allowed runners to focus
>their healing on their spirits and not themselves. Most times, I had taken
>two objectives before my opponents were ready to start their first run. It
>was just a matter of holding them off a while longer until I could put the
>game away.
>
Shade is good especially if you play offensively with lots of spirits.
However.... It still requires 2 cards to do what one could do.....

None of the Magic runners and gear really click.

Big Decks have Torgo, Tinman, Skwraaaaaark!, Gore Tusk and Stomper.
Matrix Decks have Fuchi Industries, Static, Icequeen, Hollywood, Sticky
Fingers.
Sleaze Decks have Drake, Foxy Roxy,Macabre,Reaper, Tinkerbell, Tempest.
Affiliation Decks are so obvious...
Magic Decks have squat...

At the moment there's not much reason to play mages or shamans.....yet....
maybe something new will turn up in corp wars....
Message no. 6
From: Michael Niederkofler <hibou@****.TU-GRAZ.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:50:50 +0200
Abadia, Teos wrote:

> > ----------
> > I've read through so much card text in the last week (finishing
> Second
> > Run) that my head is a mess.
> > Jim N.
> > ~!~!~!~!~!
> >
> Then you probably don't want to hear this, but I have some concerns
> about the changes being made to some spell cards in second run. I
> would
> love to talk to you about the perception you have about the role of
> mages in the game. I realize you are busy, but if you get the time, I
> would love a reply, however short it might be. I am cc-ing this to
> the
> list as well, to see how everyone else feels.
>
> I keep hearing that spell cards that don't rely on a die roll will be
> changed to use a die roll. I really am against this, as I strongly
> believe that more consistancy is needed to make magical decks
> attractive. Right now, odds are against mage decks winning. Below I
> rant on some of the reasons I think mage/shamen decks don't
> consistantly
> measure up to "big thug" decks. i would love to hear your feelings on
>
> the perceptions I have, even if you strongly disagree.

<big snip>

Hi there !

I agree to most of what you say about the role of mages and shamans and
I even want to say that most (if not all) other decks don´t have the
edge to win consistently agaínst "big bully"-decks.

Just imagine the following scenario :

You have the following on the table :

Tempest with two spells, Hawkwind, Tinkerbell, Static, Ajax, Macabre and
Shasta. This gives you a wide range of skills and you´re ready to sleaze
challenges either with your skills or spells your mages are holding.

You´re opponent has two Stompers with Katanas. It looks as he´s behind
and you´re doing faster and better. Then he plays two "Riots" in one
turn. Pray that at least one LotI gets through. Otherwise ALL you´re
runners are trashed. Youre drones or spirits (except Ally Spirit or
Protective Spirit) will not help you as Riots states explicitly all
RUNNERs take two damage.

What now? He needs only a third big troll and will go through almost all
challenges (and with "Cleanse the Hive" or "Cermak Blast" he ignores
your challenges that require "social").

What I´m looking for in the coming expansions are cards that give trolls
are real drawback. "Infighting" is a step in the right direction, but it
seem a little bit expensive compared to cards like "Riots" and
"Wanted".

Greetings,
Michael

PS.: This is a similar complaint as in my post about "Wanted", but this
is because I consistently loose against the troll-deck of a friend. Hi
Bernhard :-)!
--
************************
Michael Niederkofler
hibou@****.tu-graz.ac.at
************************

Conway´s Gesetz: In jeder Organisation gibt es immer nur eine Person,
die weiß was los ist. Diese Person muß entlassen werden.
Message no. 7
From: Norman McLeod <mcleodn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:58:59 -0400
I've found that the key to using mages is to use them in combination with
other types of runners. I will certainly agree that they lack what the mscle
decks have, in that I think it is easy t make a deck of al muscle, but when
making a mage deck, I found that it was not effective untill I had as few
Mages as I did any other type of runner. Right now my deck has:
5 Mages
4 Riggers
5 Rockers
3 Deckers
4 Muscle
4 Other
Message no. 8
From: Felix Hoefert <FHoefert@********.DE>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:01:33 +0200
Norman McLeod wrote:
>
> I've found that the key to using mages is to use them in combination with
> other types of runners. I will certainly agree that they lack what the mscle
> decks have, in that I think it is easy t make a deck of al muscle, but when
> making a mage deck, I found that it was not effective untill I had as few
> Mages as I did any other type of runner. Right now my deck has:
> 5 Mages
> 4 Riggers
> 5 Rockers
> 3 Deckers
> 4 Muscle
> 4 Other

Have You played this a lot? It looks as if it were very difficult to get
a quick and successful combination of Runners and Gear out, since there
are so many different Runner types. I´m very interested in decks that
work well in tourneys because I don´t want to start using a cheesy Brute
or Money-stealer deck that doesn´t even go on a run to win. ---Felix
Message no. 9
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:09:31 -0500
>
>In the RPG, mages usually add a crucial set of powers to a muscle team.
>In the CCG, a deck can't afford to throw in a couple of mages/shamen
and
>a couple of magical gear cards, since the odds are that the right
>combination won't be drawn. Because of this, decks that use mages,
>shamen, and magical gear must use those cards in significant portions.
>Even then, these decks don't measure up against "big thug" attack
decks.
>They can and do win, but if you were playing to win, the odds are
>against magical decks.
>


This is all in line to bring things back into karmic balance for those
fine folks at FASA. In the role-playing game, magic IS power, so it had
to be curtailed somewhat for the card game to make things right with the
world...

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 10
From: Norman McLeod <mcleodn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: [FASA] Second Run comments
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:04:37 -0400
>> 5 Mages
>> 4 Riggers
>> 5 Rockers
>> 3 Deckers
>> 4 Muscle
>> 4 Other
>
>Have You played this a lot? It looks as if it were very difficult to get
>a quick and successful combination of Runners and Gear out, since there
>are so many different Runner types. I´m very interested in decks that
>work well in tourneys because I don´t want to start using a cheesy Brute
>or Money-stealer deck that doesn´t even go on a run to win. ---Felix


I've played this quite a bit, and it has worked fairly well, the deck is
going through a bit of a metamorphosis right now, and it looks like it's
going to turn out with strong simmilarities to Poisoned Elves.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about [FASA] Second Run comments, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!