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Message no. 1
From: Olaf kramer <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:02:14 +0200
HI,

can i use Fuchi or the Z-Zone in my legwork phase or just in the Shadowrun phase?

OLAF
Message no. 2
From: Jonathan Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:07:53 +0100
At 12:02 PM 8/20/98 , you wrote:
>HI,
>
>can i use Fuchi or the Z-Zone in my legwork phase or just in the Shadowrun
phase?
>
>OLAF


Fuchi must be used in place of a Shadowrun, as does Z-Zone.


Cheers,

Jon
Message no. 3
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:14:51 -0400
From: Jonathan Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE

> >can i use Fuchi or the Z-Zone in my legwork phase or just in the
> >Shadowrun
> phase?

> Fuchi must be used in place of a Shadowrun, as does Z-Zone.

That doesn't exactly anser the man's question. It is in place of a
shadowrun, meaning you give up the option to run. But the
location should still used during your legwork phase. There is an
important difference.


--Droopy
Message no. 4
From: Jonathan Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:34:19 +0100
>> >can i use Fuchi or the Z-Zone in my legwork phase or just in the
>> >Shadowrun
>> phase?
>
>> Fuchi must be used in place of a Shadowrun, as does Z-Zone.
>
>That doesn't exactly anser the man's question. It is in place of a
>shadowrun, meaning you give up the option to run. But the
>location should still used during your legwork phase. There is an
>important difference.

Okaaaaaay.....


<snip Card Text>
Fuchi Industries
Type: Location
Rarity: Promo
Description: 4¥. Corporate (HQ). One or more Deckers (including Hermit
Deckers)
may visit Fuchi Industries instead of going on a shadowrun. Turn visiting
Deckers and roll D6 (+1 for each point of Decking). 1-6: Nothing, nada,
zip! 7-
9: Add 2¥ to Credstick 10-12: Add 4¥ to Credstick 13+: Jackpot! Add 5¥=
to
Credstick OR 5 points to Reputation pile.

The Z-Zone
Type: Location
Rarity: Rare
Description: 6¥. Street (Barrens). Use in place of a shadowrun. Select a
team of
Runners and roll D6. On 1 or 6, pay an "air tax" of 1¥ for each Runner
present or one of your Runners (randomly chosen) is trashed. 2-5: Attack
another player!
All Runners on both sides must be committed to the fight. Resolve combat as
normal.
<end Snip of Card Text>

Let's look at this for a sec....

Fuchi says that you can go there instead of a shadowrun. Maybe you COULD
go there during your legwork phase, but then you'd pretty much pass over
your shadowrun phase, so if argued that way, it would be POSSIBLE, by that
argument, to take some other actions (i.e., purchase runners, gear, etc.,
trade gear, play specials, etc., etc.) after the Deckers visit Fuchi. I
suppose that's a matter of personal or house rules.

Z-Zone. Again, if you follow that same argument, you could do the same as
above. And again it would fall under house rules or personal determination.=


This is just my opinion, but if something is to be used IN PLACE of a
Shadowrun, then it takes place DURING the Shadowrun phase, not the legwork
phase. I'm sure there's different ways of playing it, but this is what I
would assume that is what is meant by the card text.

J
Message no. 5
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:54:09 -0700
---Jonathan Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM> wrote:
>
> This is just my opinion, but if something is to be used IN PLACE of a
> Shadowrun, then it takes place DURING the Shadowrun phase, not the legwork
> phase. I'm sure there's different ways of playing it, but this is what I
> would assume that is what is meant by the card text.

I agree with Jon. IMHO if you can only go on a shadowrun during the SR phase,
then you could only use something in place of the run during the same phase.
Thus once Z-Zone or Fuchi has been used, the only part of your turn left is
end phase to discard cards and such, no other Legwork phase activities would
be valid.

This is the important distinction that should be noted.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Shadowrun RPG 3rd Edition Playtester. SRTCG Playtester.
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

_________________________________________________________
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Message no. 6
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:06:23 -0400
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE

> I agree with Jon. IMHO if you can only go on a shadowrun during the SR
> phase, then you could only use something in place of the run during the
> same phase. Thus once Z-Zone or Fuchi has been used, the only part of your
> turn left is end phase to discard cards and such, no other Legwork phase
> activities would be valid.
>
> This is the important distinction that should be noted.

I was in that camp till this came up. In magic, theres a card that
allows you to gain something in place of your draw phase. It is not
done during the draw phase though.

By the same note, the question becomes, does Fuchi replace a
shadowrun or the shadowrun phase? It is an important distinction.

If it replaces the shadowrun itself, then the card should reflect that
by saying visit during your shadowrun phase instead of making a
run. Otherwise, it is a location and would be visited during the
legwork phase.

Now, we all have to take into account that the wording on a lot of
cards (not just in this game either) can be clearer. I don't have a
preference or reason to argue the point, but it is significant
stratigecly.

Just my humble opinion.


--Droopy
Message no. 7
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:06:23 -0400
From: Jonathan Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
To: SRCARD@********.ITRIBE.NET

> This is just my opinion, but if something is to be used IN PLACE of a
> Shadowrun, then it takes place DURING the Shadowrun phase, not the legwork
> phase. I'm sure there's different ways of playing it, but this is what I
> would assume that is what is meant by the card text.

Where on the card did it say that you do not visit these locations
during the legwork phase?

I understand where you are coming from, but that requires a leap in
logic that isn't outlined in the rules or on the cards. I didn't intend
to start a discussion on how these cards work (I can accept either
way and quite frankly play their usage during the SR phase cause
I've never thought about it before) but more to point out that saying
to read the card on something that isn't quite clear (the reason for
the question) isn't exactly productive.


--Droopy
Message no. 8
From: Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:48:23 -0700
>If it replaces the shadowrun itself, then the card should reflect that
>by saying visit during your shadowrun phase instead of making a
>run. Otherwise, it is a location and would be visited during the
>legwork phase.
>
>Now, we all have to take into account that the wording on a lot of
>cards (not just in this game either) can be clearer. I don't have a
>preference or reason to argue the point, but it is significant
>stratigecly
<snip>

If something is replacing the Shadowrun, which, by definition takes place
only in the Shadowrun phase, then by default, the assumption can be made
that it either takes place during the Shadowrun phase, or it circumvents it
and you lose your Shadowrun phase for that turn....

I don't much like that latter alternative (although, really, there isn't
much difference than the first) but the one thing I think we all agree on
is, regardless when a team goes to Fuchi, there is no Shadowrun for that
player that turn.

Cheers,

Jon
Message no. 9
From: Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:52:14 -0700
>Where on the card did it say that you do not visit these locations
>during the legwork phase?
>
>I understand where you are coming from, but that requires a leap in
>logic that isn't outlined in the rules or on the cards. I didn't intend
>to start a discussion on how these cards work (I can accept either
>way and quite frankly play their usage during the SR phase cause
>I've never thought about it before) but more to point out that saying
>to read the card on something that isn't quite clear (the reason for
>the question) isn't exactly productive.

I think in my previous message (the one you responded to) addressed that, I
suppose there is the possibility of players choosing to play the card in
that fashion, and why a player might choose to do that....however, it also
seems that, as I stuck in my last reply, that if something goes in place of
a Shadowrun, which only takes place in the Shadowrun phase, then it seems
logical that the action must take place in the same phase.

Again, ultimately it doesn't matter, because then the player forfeits
his/her Shadowrun phase for that turn anyway, and with the exception of
spending money on extra gear in your hand (money that the Deckers got from
Fuchi, let's say...) then there's really no reason to continue on with the
Legwork Phase (Hawkwind doesn't need to heal anyone...no Deckers get hurt @
Fuchi....)

Cheers,

Jon
Message no. 10
From: Bolton Sara <pin12962@*******.PING.BE>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:01:41 +0200
>I don't much like that latter alternative (although, really, there isn't
>much difference than the first) but the one thing I think we all agree on
>is, regardless when a team goes to Fuchi, there is no Shadowrun for that
>player that turn.
>
The problem is: if you can go to "Fuchi" during your legwork phase, you can
use any nuyens obtained to play runners or gear cards (you are stiil in
legwork phase). That can't be done if you can only use "Fuchi" during your
shadowrun phase. (I personnaly think that the later option was FASA's idea,
but i am afraid we are going to need their ruling to settle this.)

Vincent.
Message no. 11
From: Gunnar Lundquist <OneWay919@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:20:50 EDT
In a message dated 98-08-23 16:06:38 EDT, you write:

<<
I was in that camp till this came up. In magic, theres a card that
allows you to gain something in place of your draw phase. It is not
done during the draw phase though.

By the same note, the question becomes, does Fuchi replace a
shadowrun or the shadowrun phase? It is an important distinction.
>>
FIRST thing ...I personally don't care about what is, or what does in Magic,
we're not playing magic, if it was I wouldn't be playing it, and I for one
hate
the way everyone always reflects back to it...nuff said on my personal dislike
of that game...

Now on to my thoughts of the Fuchi/Z-Zone discussion :
think of it this way if you could use Fuchi in the legwork phase it would
..IMHO..
brek the card making it way to powerful ( and I do use a Fuchi deck ) in that
you could go there and then gain the extra cash and then deploy that new
runner or good piece of gear, not that these are bad things, but it just seems
to
me that if it is used in place of a RUN then in must be used in the SR phase,
this only makes the most sense

My 2 Nuyens worth of comments

OneWay
OneWay919@***.com
Message no. 12
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:53:47 -0400
From: Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE

> Again, ultimately it doesn't matter, because then the player forfeits
> his/her Shadowrun phase for that turn anyway, and with the exception of
> spending money on extra gear in your hand (money that the Deckers got from
> Fuchi, let's say...) then there's really no reason to continue on with the
> Legwork Phase (Hawkwind doesn't need to heal anyone...no Deckers get hurt
> @ Fuchi....)

Sure it does...that extra nuyen I get from fuchi could allow me to
play another runner to intercept you on your turn.

Or, in the case of zzone, I can make it look like I'm going to
commit all of my runners and then play one after you commit and
everything falls out.

Never underestimate the advantage of something that seems so
trivial. By withholding information about what you can do, your
opponent will make an uninformed decision. Could cause him or
her to make a mistake.


--Droopy
Message no. 13
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:53:46 -0400
From: Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE

> If something is replacing the Shadowrun, which, by definition takes place
> only in the Shadowrun phase, then by default, the assumption can be made
> that it either takes place during the Shadowrun phase, or it circumvents
> it and you lose your Shadowrun phase for that turn....
>
> I don't much like that latter alternative (although, really, there isn't
> much difference than the first) but the one thing I think we all agree on
> is, regardless when a team goes to Fuchi, there is no Shadowrun for that
> player that turn.

Actually, it can make a lot of difference. But it still comes down to
does it replace the phase (ie, if you do that, you do not get a
shadowrun phase) or does it replace the shadowrun itself (ie do
this when you would normally be shadowrunning.)

I don't feel it is completely clear from the cards, which do not
directly override the rule that locations are visited during the
legwork phase.


--Droopy
Message no. 14
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:53:47 -0400
From: Gunnar Lundquist <OneWay919@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE

> FIRST thing ...I personally don't care about what is, or what does in
> Magic, we're not playing magic, if it was I wouldn't be playing it, and I
> for one hate the way everyone always reflects back to it...nuff said on my
> personal dislike of that game...

Welp, like it or not, it is the only way to show parrallel logic for
game mechanics in a format that most people are familiar with. If
there was a real life way to explain phases (the dinner phase) then
I would've used it.

> Now on to my thoughts of the Fuchi/Z-Zone discussion :
> think of it this way if you could use Fuchi in the legwork phase it would
> ..IMHO.. brek the card making it way to powerful ( and I do use a Fuchi
> deck ) in that you could go there and then gain the extra cash and then
> deploy that new runner or good piece of gear, not that these are bad
> things, but it just seems to me that if it is used in place of a RUN then
> in must be used in the SR phase, this only makes the most sense

I disagree that it would make the card too powerfull. It would just
allow a different strategy (actually, it would allow more strategy.) I
have no problems with it going either way in a ruling. Both are
equally suitable as far as I'm concerned.

My problem is with the way people assume that everyone will
interperet a card the same way they do, especially when there is
nothing to reinforce their interpretation. We saw this with Uncle
Joe, which seemed to me at least to be self evident. If the card
meant something against the rules, it would've said it.


--Droopy
Message no. 15
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:53:46 -0400
From: Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE

> If something is replacing the Shadowrun, which, by definition takes place
> only in the Shadowrun phase, then by default, the assumption can be made
> that it either takes place during the Shadowrun phase, or it circumvents
> it and you lose your Shadowrun phase for that turn....
>
> I don't much like that latter alternative (although, really, there isn't
> much difference than the first) but the one thing I think we all agree on
> is, regardless when a team goes to Fuchi, there is no Shadowrun for that
> player that turn.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jon
>
Message no. 16
From: Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:07:28 -0700
<snip>
>My problem is with the way people assume that everyone will
>interperet a card the same way they do, especially when there is
>nothing to reinforce their interpretation. We saw this with Uncle
>Joe, which seemed to me at least to be self evident. If the card
>meant something against the rules, it would've said it.
>
<snip>

I think the Uncle Joe debate had a little more merit than this, although
they're both along the same lines, where it's an argument against the
spirit of the wording.

Most people I know would just Cherry Bomb a Fuchi when it comes into play
anyway, so I don't have to worry about it (although, for some reason, mine
always stay alive :-)

As far as the card text, by using something in place of a phase, I thought
it was self-explanatory, or at least phrased so that "in place" meant
during that time...that's the way my group plays it, at least....

If that doesn't work for anyone, I say develop a house rule and play it how
you see fit.

J
Message no. 17
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:29:29 -0400
From: Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE

> I think the Uncle Joe debate had a little more merit than this, although
> they're both along the same lines, where it's an argument against the
> spirit of the wording.

Actually, I don't think the Uncle Joe debate had any merit at all,
from the POV of someone who has played a lot of games for a long
time. Not meant to belittle anyone involved in it.

As for this debate. What is the spirit of the wording? I don't think
anyone here is qualified to answer that question. The wording itself
points to my devil's advocate role being correct. Sure it may not be
the spirit of the card, but that just backs up my original comment
about assuming everyone else interprets things the same way.


--Droopy
Message no. 18
From: Jonathan Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FUCHI / ZZONE
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:44:32 +0100
>As for this debate. What is the spirit of the wording? I don't think
>anyone here is qualified to answer that question. The wording itself
>points to my devil's advocate role being correct. Sure it may not be
>the spirit of the card, but that just backs up my original comment
>about assuming everyone else interprets things the same way.


I suppose it depends on who you play....I see Fuchi come out, it goes BOOM.
So does Z-zone...unless I'm playing my Skwaaaaaaark! deck, in which case I
eat your runners, THEN blow it up. ;-)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about FUCHI / ZZONE, you may also be interested in:

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