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Message no. 1
From: Andrew Payne III <smiling_bandit@**********.COM>
Subject: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:13:48 -0700
What kind of legal issues would FASA have to deal with if they wanted
to publish a card that was posted on this list? I have seen a few
cards that I would really like to see come out in an expansion. Maybe
something should be put in our list FAQ that makes any card posted to
the list to become usable by FASA at their discression. I do not want
to limit FASA by coming up with cool cards, posting them to the list
and
then thinking that FASA may not publish any thing like it because it
was posted here. Personally I would not mind if FASA took any of my
card ideas and used them in an expansion. Does any one else have any
issues that should be discussed on this topic?

Maybe, in the tradition of the ShadowRN list, a survey should be taken
off the list.

===
Andrew Payne III
smiling_bandit@**********.com
http://www.oakland.edu/~ddmccoll/sr






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Message no. 2
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:35:56 -0500
You wrote:
>
>What kind of legal issues would FASA have to deal with if they wanted
>to publish a card that was posted on this list? I have seen a few
>cards that I would really like to see come out in an expansion. Maybe
>something should be put in our list FAQ that makes any card posted to
>the list to become usable by FASA at their discression. I do not want
>to limit FASA by coming up with cool cards, posting them to the list
>and
>then thinking that FASA may not publish any thing like it because it
>was posted here. Personally I would not mind if FASA took any of my
>card ideas and used them in an expansion. Does any one else have any
>issues that should be discussed on this topic?
>
>Maybe, in the tradition of the ShadowRN list, a survey should be taken
>off the list.
>
I, too, was wondering if we were tying FASA's hands by posting them
here first, or is we posted a similar idea to what they had already
planned, would that leave them open for lawsuits or that. Maybe they
could not even consider outside submissions for this very reason. I'm
no lawyer, just going by past complications...

Argent
Message no. 3
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:04:40 -0700
---Andrew Payne III wrote:
>
> What kind of legal issues would FASA have to deal with if they wanted
> to publish a card that was posted on this list?

Good question. I'll ask Skuzzy or Jim about that when they get back.

-== Loki ==-
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
SRTCG trade lists last updated 9/24/97


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Message no. 4
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:09:34 -0400
>> What kind of legal issues would FASA have to deal with if they wanted
>> to publish a card that was posted on this list?
>
>Good question. I'll ask Skuzzy or Jim about that when they get back.

If current state of the TCG industry says anything, then you really don't
have much to worry about.
Look at Magic the Gathering. Fans make up TONS of their own cards. Scrye
Magazine even publishes the things in every issue.

AFAIK - FASA would need to ask for permission if the card were not already
their "intellectual property"
For example - just because I make an Ares MP Laser card, does NOT mean that
FASA needs my permission to make one too.
Even if theirs has the same benefits as the one I came up with, the original
Ares MP was their "Intellectual Property" and as such, I had no legal basis
for making the card for anything other than fun.

Now, if I make a runner card named Bull, and give him some really neat
special ability like "Turn Bull to destroy any gear or location, then the
issue becomes trickier.
I would assume that to produce an exact duplicate of this card, FASA would
need my permission IF I marked the material as being copyright me.

Overall, I don't expect to see this as a major issue.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"My ex-girlfriends, they don't like me, but they should/'Cause I'm the
reason that the new guy looks so good." - "Get It Right Someday" by the
Gear
Daddies
Message no. 5
From: Andrew Payne III <smiling_bandit@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:19:11 -0700
---"Steven A. Tinner" wrote:
>
> >> What kind of legal issues would FASA have to deal with if they
> >> wanted to publish a card that was posted on this list?
> >
> >Good question. I'll ask Skuzzy or Jim about that when they get back.
>
> If current state of the TCG industry says anything, then you really
> don't have much to worry about. Look at Magic the Gathering. Fans
> make up TONS of their own cards. Scrye Magazine even publishes the
> things in every issue.
>
> AFAIK - FASA would need to ask for permission if the card were not
> already their "intellectual property" For example - just because I
> make an Ares MP Laser card, does NOT mean that FASA needs my
> permission to make one too. Even if theirs has the same benefits as
> the one I came up with, the original Ares MP was their "Intellectual
> Property" and as such, I had no legal basis for making the card for
> anything other than fun.
>
> Now, if I make a runner card named Bull, and give him some really
neat
> special ability like "Turn Bull to destroy any gear or location,
then
> the issue becomes trickier. I would assume that to produce an exact
> duplicate of this card, FASA would need my permission IF I marked
the
> material as being copyright me.

Very good points, makes me feel a little better. Here is another
point about your point after AFAIK, that relates to the Bull card.
Since the card game and mechanics are most likly considered FASA's
"intellectual property", could it not be said that any card that uses
the same game mechanics fall under FASA's "intellectual property"?

Come to think of it didn't Wizards of the Coast win a lawsuit against
a
start-up company that was producing "Magic" like stickers to put on
Magic cards.

>
> Overall, I don't expect to see this as a major issue.
>

I did not think it would be, I thought of it as I was checking out
Nemien/forrest's web page with cards thought up on this list.

===
Andrew Payne III
smiling_bandit@**********.com
http://www.oakland.edu/~ddmccoll/sr






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Message no. 6
From: Nemein <eness@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:42:21 -0700
---Andrew Payne III <smiling_bandit@**********.COM> wrote:
[snip]
> >
> > Overall, I don't expect to see this as a major issue.
> >
>
> I did not think it would be, I thought of it as I was checking out
> Nemien/forrest's web page with cards thought up on this list.
>

Yeah I hadn't really thought of it either. The only other game where
I got involved in the design phase of it I'm pretty sure (can't really
recall it was a couple of years ago) that the person asked me if he
could use the cards, or I told him to use them if he liked them. I
guess the major thing would be if anyone wanted to make an issue of
it. I have a feeling that most people here would be more excited over
having a card used than trying to get "their share" of the profit.

Just my feelings.

If people would prefer, I'll take the "list idea page" down until we
get an answer. Actually since I don't have a counter or access to the
logs I'm not even sure if anyone has looked at it yet :-)

Later!
Forrest
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Message no. 7
From: Andrew Payne III <smiling_bandit@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:58:15 -0700
---Nemein wrote:
>
> ---Andrew Payne III <smiling_bandit@**********.COM> wrote:
> [snip]
> > >
> > > Overall, I don't expect to see this as a major issue.
> > >
> >
> > I did not think it would be, I thought of it as I was checking out
> > Nemien/forrest's web page with cards thought up on this list.
> >
>
> Yeah I hadn't really thought of it either. The only other game where
> I got involved in the design phase of it I'm pretty sure (can't
really
> recall it was a couple of years ago) that the person asked me if he
> could use the cards, or I told him to use them if he liked them. I
> guess the major thing would be if anyone wanted to make an issue of
> it. I have a feeling that most people here would be more excited
over
> having a card used than trying to get "their share" of the profit.
>

I would be excited but, I wouldn't mind (a) signed copy(ies) of the
card(s) used. Z:o)

>
> Just my feelings.
>
> If people would prefer, I'll take the "list idea page" down until we
> get an answer. Actually since I don't have a counter or access to
the
> logs I'm not even sure if anyone has looked at it yet :-)
>

I have looked at it at added all the card I did not have in my
database in my database. I do not think you should take it down until
we find out one way or the other how FASA feels about it.

===
Andrew Payne III
smiling_bandit@**********.com
http://www.oakland.edu/~ddmccoll/sr






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Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:13:35 -0400
At 11:19 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Andrew Payne III wrote these timeless words:
[SNIP Tinner stuff]

>Very good points, makes me feel a little better. Here is another
>point about your point after AFAIK, that relates to the Bull card.
>Since the card game and mechanics are most likly considered FASA's
>"intellectual property", could it not be said that any card that uses
>the same game mechanics fall under FASA's "intellectual property"?
>
No. They can say that you're infringing upon their Intellectual property
by making cards using their rules, and can sue you. TSR had been using
these atctics to shut down websites with AD&D related info on them.

Otherwise, if what you were saying was true, then every piece of I-Net
material for SR that's been created could and would be owned by FASA. that
would be rather disgusting...:]

However, there should be no problems... FASA is REALLY cool about the
Internet stuff relating to their games. As long as you aren't posting
scanned copies of their books, or making money off the Shadowrun name, they
really leave you alone and let you have fun...;]

>Come to think of it didn't Wizards of the Coast win a lawsuit against
>a
>start-up company that was producing "Magic" like stickers to put on
>Magic cards.
>
This is a little different. This was making money off of WOTC's game.
Same thing would happen if you tried to Publish and Sell as set of SR cards
that you made yourself, especially ones that were compatible with the Card
Game.

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

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Message no. 9
From: "Joshua M. Kanapkey" <Wakabout@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:27:01 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-25 14:44:31 EDT, Forrest wrote:

<< I have a feeling that most people here would be more excited over
having a card used than trying to get "their share" of the profit. >>

I'd be perfectly happy knowing I'd contributed to such an awesome game!
Although, as Andrew said, a signed copy of any card I subbed would be cool!

<< Actually since I don't have a counter or access to the
logs I'm not even sure if anyone has looked at it yet :-) >>

I have, good work! Keep it up! FASA is pretty lenient when it comes to such
things, IIRC, so don't sweat it.

Adieu,
Wakabout {{@***.com}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"ROUS'es? I don't think they exist."
--Wesley, 'The Princess Bride'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 10
From: Logan Graves <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:20:21 -0400
(>) In our late one kiddies, Joshua M. Kanapkey wrote:

>F> In a responce to Forrest's 97-09-25 post:
>F>
>F> I have a feeling that most people here would be more excited over
>F> having a card used than trying to get "their share" of the profit.
>
> I'd be perfectly happy knowing I'd contributed to such an awesome
> game! Although, as Andrew said, a signed copy of any card I subbed
> would be cool!

Ya, got that one right, chummer. That's exactly why I posted my
"custom cards" on our website -- not as a challenge to FASA's (c)'s.

IMNTBHO, it would be too-cool to have the B.K.K. or any of my 'runners
used as an official SRTCG Card! (Now *that* would be trade fodder!)


>F> Actually since I don't have a counter or access to the
>F> logs I'm not even sure if anyone has looked at it yet :-)
>
> I have, good work! Keep it up! FASA is pretty lenient when it comes to
> such things, IIRC, so don't sweat it.

They are, and that's straight from FASATomD's mouth. They want us to
have fun & spread the word about their awesome gaming products

(>) --Fenris

_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) An Ares tee-shirt?

ARES MACROTECH
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Message no. 11
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:34:59 -0700
> What kind of legal issues would FASA have to deal with if they wanted
> to publish a card that was posted on this list?

Same as any use of intellectual property: they *could* sue you butt off,
since posting to a webpage is a form of publishing (Someone v. Someone
else -- it was a New York case, I think.)

But you have hope! Look at the Shadowrun Webring - 132-odd pages of
"illegally" written Shadowrun stuff! I think the Folks at FASA wouldn't
mind an unofficial expansion set anymore than they protest the Plastic
Warriors site or Paolo's Shadowrun Archive. So long as you post the
Lawyer Chant, however:

"Original Shadowrun: The Card Game material (c) 1997, FASA, Inc. Used
without permision. No infringement, is intended. No exfringement
intended. No nothin' intended. I LOVE YOU GUYS!
Original material this page (c) 1997, Matt Breton. Don't you DARE steal
my ideas! I can see you scribbling down the HTML code, damnit!"

Only, y'know, a little more cool-headed.

And, oh yeah -- the important part is to copyright everything in my
name. :)

> I have seen a few
> cards that I would really like to see come out in an expansion. Maybe
> something should be put in our list FAQ that makes any card posted to
> the list to become usable by FASA at their discression. I do not want
> to limit FASA by coming up with cool cards, posting them to the list
> and then thinking that FASA may not publish any thing like it because it was posted
here.

Cf. The Shadowrun Companion. A *lot* of the ideas therein appeared on
the 'net first.

> Personally I would not mind if FASA took any of my
> card ideas and used them in an expansion. Does any one else have any
> issues that should be discussed on this topic?

If you're really, really, really eager, type up a proposal and send it
in. I should very shortly have a copy of my subby up to crib off of. :)

> Maybe, in the tradition of the ShadowRN list, a survey should be taken
> off the list.

I say don't post em. That way *I* can swipe your ideas!

That means go ahead.

I apologize, I'm really giddy tonight. Long story.


-Matt
Message no. 12
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:17:02 +1000
> >
> I, too, was wondering if we were tying FASA's hands by posting them
> here first, or is we posted a similar idea to what they had already
> planned, would that leave them open for lawsuits or that. Maybe they
> could not even consider outside submissions for this very reason. I'm
> no lawyer, just going by past complications...

FASA's web page states that unsolicited submissions (this is for the
writers' guide) will be returned unopened. I assume this is so that
someone can't submit a manuscript, have it rejected, and then later
claim that something of FASA's is plagiarising their work. If FASA's
policy proves that they haven't ever even seen the manuscript the legal
hassles would be much reduced or even eliminated.

I don't know what bearing it has on the card game.

What we may want to do (pointing this mostly at Loki and Dvixen) is cut
down a mini-FAQ and configure the list so that all new subscribers are
automatically sent the mini-FAQ (I know you can do this in Majordomo;
don't know about listserv). Then, we can put a big signposted message in
the mini-FAQ (and the regular FAQ) to the effect that: any "dream cards"
or suggestions/revisions for "dream cards" that are posted on this list
become public domain and FASA is free to use these cards in any future
releases (provided the card author is given credit).

How does this sound?

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"No more drugs for that man!" - Dietrich, Face/Off
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:28:38 +1000
> > If current state of the TCG industry says anything, then you really
> > don't have much to worry about. Look at Magic the Gathering. Fans

I think the point is that the card creators don't want to prevent the
possibility of their cards appearing in an official set, not that
they're worried about getting their asses sued off. FASA's notably good
like that.

> > make up TONS of their own cards. Scrye Magazine even publishes the
> > things in every issue.

*cough* Just for those of you who aren't aware, Richard Garfield has
just patented the Collectible Card Game. No, I don't know what this
means. Neither does anyone else. There's a raging argument on
rec.games.trading-cards.misc about it.

Back to the Dream Cards thing, Decipher (who make the ST:TNG and Star
Wars CCGs) have a Dream Cards archive on their website.

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"No more drugs for that man!" - Dietrich, Face/Off
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:37:32 +0000
> or suggestions/revisions for "dream cards" that are posted on this list
> become public domain and FASA is free to use these cards in any future
> releases (provided the card author is given credit).

sounds good, but I'd
1) bounce this off Mike and Jim to verify
2) Change the "card author is given credit" to "a reasonable attempt
is made to give the card author credit" and a disclaimer about
similar cards not counting. (Since we are going off of the RPG, I'm
sure lots of ideas (physAds, for one) will be duplicated between
players and FASA.) Plus, we better determine what "credit" means,
since they won't be printing it on the cards.....

All the annoying lawyer bits.


Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 15
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:21:11 -0700
---Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> FASA's web page states that unsolicited submissions (this is for the
> writers' guide) will be returned unopened. I assume this is so that
> someone can't submit a manuscript, have it rejected, and then later
> claim that something of FASA's is plagiarising their work. If FASA's
> policy proves that they haven't ever even seen the manuscript the
legal
> hassles would be much reduced or even eliminated.
>
> I don't know what bearing it has on the card game.
>
> What we may want to do (pointing this mostly at Loki and Dvixen) is
cut
> down a mini-FAQ and configure the list so that all new subscribers
are
> automatically sent the mini-FAQ (I know you can do this in Majordomo;
> don't know about listserv). Then, we can put a big signposted
message in
> the mini-FAQ (and the regular FAQ) to the effect that: any "dream
cards"
> or suggestions/revisions for "dream cards" that are posted on this
list
> become public domain and FASA is free to use these cards in any
future
> releases (provided the card author is given credit).
>
> How does this sound?

I'll ask Adam/Mark if there's a way to have Listserv do that.

-== Loki ==-
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
SRTCG trade lists last updated 9/25/97
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Message no. 16
From: Daniel Casquilho <casquild@***********.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:39:09 -0800
>...to the effect that: any "dream cards"
>or suggestions/revisions for "dream cards" that are posted on this list
>become public domain and FASA is free to use these cards in any future
>releases (provided the card author is given credit).

Lady Jestyr,

If you make something public domain then the creater has NO rights at all.
Not even to ask for credit. Also not that without a statement from the creater
FASA could not assume any protection dispite what you may post in a FAQ. Why?
Because the author could claim to not have seen or understood your FAQ message.
Copyright law here in the US is quite messy and tends to favor the person who
held the right first.
What we all should do is place our own statements offering FASA the free use
of our ideas. That way each "Dream Card" post would include an explisit release
for FASA.

Daniel
Message no. 17
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:36:07 -0700
> *cough* Just for those of you who aren't aware, Richard Garfield has
> just patented the Collectible Card Game. No, I don't know what this
> means. Neither does anyone else. There's a raging argument on
> rec.games.trading-cards.misc about it.

Actually, I've fondled his patent a bit, and -- for the most part --
it's protecting some of the key Magic 'devices' (which is strange,
because I thought he'd servicemarked 'Tap' in context.) It's fairly
ambiguous (define 'collectible') and, from what I understand from the
lawyer types, a bit too late as well.

Interesting stuff, though. I wonder what he's afraid of?

-M
Message no. 18
From: James Poppe <azweepay@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [Legal] Card ideas
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:14:26 -0500
>Interesting stuff, though. I wonder what he's afraid of?

Maybe WotC might decide to freeze him out? They do have a history of
"dealing" with employee's (I'm referring to the artists revolt, when they
lost their percentages).

My best guess would be that WotC has been making some sounds about a "new
direction", especially after their acquistion of T$R and L5R's publisher
(can't remember that name). Garfield is probably protecting his own butt.
James Poppe
azweepay@********.com

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