Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:14:46 -0800
---Crane <jack9@*********.NET> wrote:
>
> Leader of the Pack:
> Makes a ganger...a Ganger Leader.
> Is Lord Torgo a Ganger Leader or not? (prolly not, but they better
remove
> the dumb qualifier, if it never amounts to anything, next run...jeez).

Tony and I were talking about this during our games yesterday.

Leader of the Pack distintly differentiates between Ganger Runner and
Ganger Leader. The text reads:

Play on target Ganger Runner (TR) and roll D6. On X+, TR becomes a
Ganger Leader (place a +X/+X Experience token on TR). A player may not
have more than one Ganger Leader in play at a time. X= Number of
Ganger Runners TR's owner currently controls. X may vary as Runners
are trashed and deployed.

Now Lord Torgo has the keywords that state he's already a Ganger
Leader. IMHO this means he's not a valid target for LOTP which has to
be a Ganger Runner. For this same reason, he also won't count in
adding to the +X/+X of a runner with LOTP.

For once, the Big Bully players that use LT can't have everything. ;o)

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/19/98
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 2
From: Keldon Mor <Keldon@********.NET>
Subject: Re: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:53:53 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
To: SRCARD@********.ITRIBE.NET <SRCARD@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Sunday, March 22, 1998 11:21 AM
Subject: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)


>---Crane <jack9@*********.NET> wrote:
>>
>> Leader of the Pack:
>> Makes a ganger...a Ganger Leader.
>> Is Lord Torgo a Ganger Leader or not? (prolly not, but they better
>remove
>> the dumb qualifier, if it never amounts to anything, next run...jeez).
>
>Tony and I were talking about this during our games yesterday.
>
>Leader of the Pack distintly differentiates between Ganger Runner and
>Ganger Leader. The text reads:
>
>Play on target Ganger Runner (TR) and roll D6. On X+, TR becomes a
>Ganger Leader (place a +X/+X Experience token on TR). A player may not
>have more than one Ganger Leader in play at a time. X= Number of
>Ganger Runners TR's owner currently controls. X may vary as Runners
>are trashed and deployed.
>
>Now Lord Torgo has the keywords that state he's already a Ganger
>Leader. IMHO this means he's not a valid target for LOTP which has to
>be a Ganger Runner. For this same reason, he also won't count in
>adding to the +X/+X of a runner with LOTP.
>
>For once, the Big Bully players that use LT can't have everything. ;o)


Well, if you're going to take it that literaly, Lord Torgo defenatly
couldn't be counted in adding +x/+x because you couldn't play the card...It
states that you may not have more than one Ganger Leader in play at a time,
and since Lord Torgo is a Ganger Leader...

Personally, I side with Lord Torgo being just a ganger....Scatter isn't a
rat shaman and doesn't get the bonus of the totem, why would Lord Torgo be
any different?

Peace,
Lee F. Foster
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.NetNitco.net/users/keldon/
Message no. 3
From: Jon Palmer <jmp225@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:32:20 -0500
>Well, if you're going to take it that literaly, Lord Torgo defenatly
>couldn't be counted in adding +x/+x because you couldn't play the card...It
>states that you may not have more than one Ganger Leader in play at a time,
>and since Lord Torgo is a Ganger Leader...
>
>Personally, I side with Lord Torgo being just a ganger....Scatter isn't a
>rat shaman and doesn't get the bonus of the totem, why would Lord Torgo be
>any different?

There's no "foo rule" in Shadowrun, is there? If there were, Torgo would
be a ganger, and a leader, and a ganger leader. But since he's not, he's
JUST a ganger leader, not a ganger. TECHNICALLY (and this is nitpicky, but
true, assuming I'm correct about the lack of a foo rule) he doesn't count
even for the gang HQ cards, or any card that requires a ganger. Obviously,
rules mavens can change this, but they way the rules of this game are (as I
interpret them) Torgo is NOT, by any stretch of the GAME MECHANICS, a
'ganger'. Whether or not he should be is another matter entirely :-)
Hopefully FASA will just make him be a Ganger in 2nd run, clearing up all
this confusion.

As for Scatter, he IS a Rat Shaman. He just doesn't get any benefits, as
the benefits of the Rat Totem are given by the CARD Rat Totem, not by the
mere fact that he IS a Rat Shaman.

Jon Palmer
Message no. 4
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:11:02 -0800
---Keldon Mor <Keldon@********.NET> wrote:
>
> Well, if you're going to take it that literaly, Lord Torgo defenatly
> couldn't be counted in adding +x/+x because you couldn't play the
card...It
> states that you may not have more than one Ganger Leader in play at
a time,
> and since Lord Torgo is a Ganger Leader...
>
> Personally, I side with Lord Torgo being just a ganger....Scatter
isn't a
> rat shaman and doesn't get the bonus of the totem, why would Lord
Torgo be
> any different?

Interesting idea. Under the wording of the card, I could in theory
play LotP on an opponent's Stomper to make him a GL and thus keep my
opponent from bringing out Torgo until Stomper gets killed off.
Hmmm... ;o)

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/19/98
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 5
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:15:56 -0800
---Jon Palmer <jmp225@***.EDU> wrote:
>
> >Well, if you're going to take it that literaly, Lord Torgo defenatly
> >couldn't be counted in adding +x/+x because you couldn't play the
card...It
> >states that you may not have more than one Ganger Leader in play at
a time,
> >and since Lord Torgo is a Ganger Leader...
> >
> >Personally, I side with Lord Torgo being just a ganger....Scatter
isn't a
> >rat shaman and doesn't get the bonus of the totem, why would Lord
Torgo be
> >any different?
>
> There's no "foo rule" in Shadowrun, is there? If there were, Torgo
would
> be a ganger, and a leader, and a ganger leader. But since he's not,
he's
> JUST a ganger leader, not a ganger. TECHNICALLY (and this is
nitpicky, but
> true, assuming I'm correct about the lack of a foo rule) he doesn't
count
> even for the gang HQ cards, or any card that requires a ganger.
Obviously,
> rules mavens can change this, but they way the rules of this game
are (as I
> interpret them) Torgo is NOT, by any stretch of the GAME MECHANICS, a
> 'ganger'. Whether or not he should be is another matter entirely :-)
> Hopefully FASA will just make him be a Ganger in 2nd run, clearing
up all
> this confusion.

Actually the way it's been understood before is that all A's are B's,
but not all B's are A's.

For example, all Combat Mages are Mages, but not all Mages are Combat
Mages.

Thus all Gang Leaders are Gangers, but not all Gangers are Gang Leaders.

Thus Torgo is affected by Trogs and the Gang Leader contact as he is a
Ganger. However, LotP differentiates specifically between the Gangers
that are Leaders and the Gangers that aren't.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/19/98
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 6
From: Jon Palmer <jmp225@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:50:59 -0500
>Actually the way it's been understood before is that all A's are B's,
>but not all B's are A's.
>
>For example, all Combat Mages are Mages, but not all Mages are Combat
>Mages.
>
>Thus all Gang Leaders are Gangers, but not all Gangers are Gang Leaders.
>
>Thus Torgo is affected by Trogs and the Gang Leader contact as he is a
>Ganger. However, LotP differentiates specifically between the Gangers
>that are Leaders and the Gangers that aren't.

My bad, I totally disregarded the compromise possibility. D'oh. Yes, I
suppose that makes sense as well. I guess sometimes I think too much in
absolutes, a "Summon Green Wood Elf" in Magic is ONLY a Green Wood Elf, not
an Elf or Wood Elf; in L5R, it's a Green, a Wood and an Elf. I guess we
can have a happy medium here.

I'd also like to suggest to the Powers That Be the introduction of what L5R
calls the wanker rule. Basically, this is a way for judges and ruling
bodies to say "I don't care if you can twist the english language to make
Card X do A, it is SUPPOSED to do B, so it does B. Period." A very useful
rule when people start arguing that Torgo is a Ganger so you can make him a
Gang Leader squared, or Scatter automatically has the powers of the Rat
Totem, or that sending Skwaaaaark! and Foxy Roxy together to run on a
Halloweener Hell results in an existential crisis of logic (the challenge
is both automatically sleazed and automatically NOT sleazed) and thus not
only does the game end in a draw, but all cards in both decks must be
burned to remove the taint. :-)

Jon Palmer
Message no. 7
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:18:27 -0600
>
>As for Scatter, he IS a Rat Shaman. He just doesn't get any benefits,
as
>the benefits of the Rat Totem are given by the CARD Rat Totem, not by
the
>mere fact that he IS a Rat Shaman.
>


OK, by that logic, Lord Torgo IS a Ganger Leader, he just doesn't get
any of the benefits of being a Ganger Leader as given by the LotP card.

Like you said, just errata it to say he is treated like a ganger, most
simple way to go...

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 8
From: "(No Name Available)" <mothman@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:05:40 -0600
>>>Personally, I side with Lord Torgo being just a ganger....Scatter isn't a rat
shaman and doesn't get the bonus of the totem, why would Lord Torgo be any
different?<<<

Don't forget that as Prime Runners they already have special abilities
and cool stats! Maybe Torgo is a Ganger Laeder because a.) it says so in
the fiction and b.) he kicks elf ass.

Just because he's a Ganger Leader doesn't mean that Torgo has to have
the same benefits to reflect his status as Ganger Leaders who have that
status bestowed on them by Leader of the Pack (terrible sentence—did
that make sense?).

In other words, all fish live in the sea, but not everything that lives
in the sea is a fish. Ganger Leaders (and rat shamen) don't all have to
be the same!
--
mothman@**********.com

"It's more fun to compute"
—Kraftwerk

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about LT and LOTP( was Re: My Take on Question, and more Questions), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.