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Message no. 1
From: >>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<< axlrose@**********.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 09:56:07 -0400 (EDT)
Interesting, to say the least...

After reading some of the comments, especially the panic to have whatever
web site that has a listing to remove it, all I can do is laugh. Let's
look at a broader picture to see a parallel view of this situation.
Computer games are popular and in much more demand than cardboard cards
from a defunked game. Also, companies that deal with such games I would
pretty much accept have a larger amount of revenue to play around with than
FASA. If money was not an issue, Corp Wars would have been released.

Now a company releases a new computer game and within hours, there are
numerous warez sites across the Internet with illegal copies of the full
game. And countless number of people download the full game without just
compensation for the creator(s) of said game, much less the company
fronting the whole package. As hard as creators program games to have
anti-theft and copyright requirements to play the game, people out there
create hacks to by-pass those ~annoyances~. Even if the companies went
after the major warez sites, there would be no way to stop them all with
new ones popping up to replace those shut down for whatever reason.

So some site has a listing of the unreleased cards. I would not doubt
there are more than one out there in virtual reality. How the sites got
the cards can be anyone's wild guess. Perhaps someone broke the NDA - FASA
would then probably return to in-house test playing and all of you people
that do test for them now would be SOL. Or perhaps FASA is secretly
releasing the cards in various places to see if there is still an appeal
for the cards. From what I have seen for reactions to FASA products in
general in _my_ area on this planet is not a positive one. The same number
of cards collect dust on the shelf at the one hobby shop while the older
Shadowrun books collect even more dust. Even the latest books for the game
seem a rehash of older materials... drifting from the point a moment.

I would like to see a listing of the cards for Corp Wars. Partially to see
how many ideas from past card ideas people posted here over the years are
'lifted' for the game. Before anyone flies off the handle, what would stop
FASA from doing such a thing? How could we stop them from taking something
like the collected card ideas of many people that create the Amerindian
Expansion set and run with it, altering a name here and there to appear as
fresh and new? After Underworld was released, I saw similar card ideas
from previous posting - nothing exact, but very similar. Something to
think about...

So someone released a deck with Corp Wars cards listed. Granted a good
many of us have no idea what the cards say (I would love to see 'Delta
Clinic' since I have a card idea offline to compare and contrast).
Whatever web site has/had the listing is not worried about FASA. Brak -
the only reason I can think of (not a lawyer mind you) is you signed an
agreement, thus making it a legal document. I highly doubt FASA would put
out the expense to hunt down the parties involved and attempt to prosecute
them in a court of law. Especially if said party is overseas to America.

Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.com> wrote :
>Not to mention, do you really think that Fasa folks don't subscribe to the
>list? I can't imagine that they don't (or didn't, when there was actually
>something to be concerned about....)

If they did, then why didn't they answer questions in the past on the list,
instead of us collecting questions and having Loki send them a mass e-mail?

Just various thoughts,
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<
Message no. 2
From: Matt Breton mrbreton@*******.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 12:55:09 PDT
>After reading some of the comments, especially the panic to have
>whatever web site that has a listing to remove it, all I can do is >laugh.
>Let's look at a broader picture to see a parallel view of >this situation.
>[...] Now a company releases a new computer game and >within hours, there
>are numerous warez sites across the Internet with
>illegal copies of the full game. And countless number of people >download
>the full game without just compensation for the creator(s)
>of said game, much less the company fronting the whole package.

But also note: These are illegal sites, and usually shut down with the same
speed they've been opened up. Moreover (all piracy issues aside), there's
something more _fragile_ about a set of card text. It's difficult to "copy"
a computer program -- a fairly complicated algorithm with graphics and sound
attached. Words, on the other hand, are very easy to disperse. I *like*
the game, and I'd like to see -- however unlikely it is -- Corp War
published. Undergrounding it completely negates that possibility.
Completely.

>Even the latest books for the game seem a rehash of older >materials...
>drifting from the point a moment.

I was really disappointed with Seattle 2 (which I thought had _serious_
potential in the way Bug City did). I haven't looked at MitS long enough to
judge it, but it seems like there's too much pre-existing material to _not_
be mentioned (sadly). At least they seem to have tried to rectify some of
the more munchkin stuff (the paths from Tir na Nog, for instance), but I've
skimmed it, rather than read it.

>I would like to see a listing of the cards for Corp Wars. Partially
>to see how many ideas from past card ideas people posted here over
>the years are 'lifted' for the game.

None of the Corp War ideas were lifted. Some of the ideas have since
appeared on the list, however (I think I've mentioned one or two, here and
there). As to how we could stop them -- why are we supposed to stop them?

I'm happy to discuss Corp War with anyone, so long as you realize I'm not
going to tell you anything very particular. :)

>I highly doubt FASA would put out the expense to hunt down the
>parties involved and attempt to prosecute them in a court of law.

Actually, the cost of _filing_ a law suit is pretty low. The cost of
maintaining one (prosecution and defense) is different, and, simply put,
FASA has deeper pockets than any of us (especially with the sale of FIT).
FASA might (*might*) be willing to toss a thousand bucks into the air to
shut down a number of websites. I, on the other hand, can't afford a day
out of work, let alone a few hundred bucks on my part, to mount a defense.
That assumes that I'm willing to support a website after they show me an
injunction. Usually the threat is enough. FASA's been cool about web-stuff
(as opposed to, say, TSR); I don't see a reason to provoke anyone.


- Matt


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Message no. 3
From: >>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<< axlrose@**********.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:24:29 -0400 (EDT)
Matt wrote:

<Snipped...>

>But also note: These are illegal sites, and usually shut down with the same
>speed they've been opened up.

Usually... without going into further details, many times these sites are
located overseas to America and are very difficult to track down the
originating point. The better sites have numerous server jumps while
masking itself along the way. Plus if a site feels the heat approaching,
they'll shut themselves down and just 'move'. Hmmm, a card idea I feel
brooding.


>Moreover (all piracy issues aside), there's something more _fragile_ about
a set of >card text.

The only definition of _fragile_ I could gather, when compared to a
computer program, is how much easier it would be for a user to alter and
manipulate the whole. Unless I am wrong in this regards, can you elaborate
a bit more please?


>It's difficult to "copy" a computer program -- a fairly complicated
algorithm with >graphics and sound attached.

Actually, with the advancement of fiber optics, modem speeds (T-series
anyone?), and overall processing speed for computers, a computer program is
much easier to copy now than in the past. Granted compared to a small text
program, it is a greater challenge, but not impossible. Look at the
proliferation of online gaming as but an example as to how advancement has
brought computer programming.


>Undergrounding it completely negates that possibility. Completely.

Yet at the same time, an underground dispersion might be a route that saves
the game as a whole. A year ago this list was much more active - I believe
Underworld was released at the time, so talk was going on about that. Two
years before today, the list was even more active with talk of the First
Edition and the potential of card ideas. Side note - look at our card
ideas then and compare that to now - talk about improvement! So at this
point, yes there are people that play the game still, but how many? It is
very hard now to gauge just how many people are on this list due to the
lack of responses overall. Almost as if the caring for the game is gone.
I would not doubt a good many people feel 'burnt' by FASA for them talking
about Corp Wars, but then just letting it slide into obscurity. Hell,
unless I am mistaken, FASA could not properly announce the game is canceled
- they let it fall our of sight. But I feel there are people that still
play the game on a (semi)-regular basis. An influx of new cards would
solidify these people while potentially drawing in more. Come now, if Corp
Wars were released in any form, don't you think this list would liven again
with talk and new card ideas? I know I would be interested.


>>Even the latest books for the game seem a rehash of older materials...
>>drifting from the point a moment.

>I was really disappointed with Seattle 2 (which I thought had _serious_
>potential in the way Bug City did). I haven't looked at MitS long enough to
>judge it, but it seems like there's too much pre-existing material to _not_
>be mentioned (sadly). At least they seem to have tried to rectify some of
>the more munchkin stuff (the paths from Tir na Nog, for instance), but I've
>skimmed it, rather than read it.

At the moment, MitS (???) does not ring a bell for me *ponder*. Seattle 2
does seem weak - hell, go on a simple route and compare the page count of
the original to the newest. It seems that what FASA did was to give the
basics for the game without fleshing anything out, letting the player
decide. Also, much of the information seems interlocked with other books
being released in the same time frame. The governor of Seattle is located
where - in the Renraku Shutdown module. What will eventually happen to
her? Probably the same fate in resolving what really did happen to the Big
D - left open-ended. Yet each new book seems to push the year along. What
year is it now - 2062?


>None of the Corp War ideas were lifted. Some of the ideas have since
>appeared on the list, however (I think I've mentioned one or two, here and
>there). As to how we could stop them -- why are we supposed to stop them?

It is the same arguement as to why one should not 'pirate' their cards.
Just because they created a game and then let it float into a void does not
automatically give them the right to take our ideas and potentially make a
profit from it. That is saying _I_ could take the Amerindian Expansion,
print the cards up, and sell them outright, claiming all credit and rights
without regard to the original contributors.


>Actually, the cost of _filing_ a law suit is pretty low. The cost of
>maintaining one (prosecution and defense) is different, and, simply put,
>FASA has deeper pockets than any of us (especially with the sale of FIT).

Much of the costs would involve whether or not the offending site is
located on American soil. Would a company be willing to spend a good
amount to try and prosecute some site they might not even locate? Plus
unless they were 110% sure, a false law suit might spell trouble for them
in the long run. All this trouble for a small text file?

And be wary about saying FASA has the revenue from the sale of FIT. When
Corp Wars was put on hiatus, someone mentioned this point as to why FASA
could not continue the printing. Another replied that the sale was to
certain individuals within FASA, not the company proper. Thus the company
could not afford it, but these individuals could.

<Snipped...>

>- Matt
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<
Message no. 4
From: Eugene Axe eugeneaxe@******.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:57:17 PDT
I have been thinking about the responses. These are some statements of my
position.

1) I am not a playtester. I did not sign any non-disclosure form of any
kind.

2) I am not going to try and make money on this; it's not mine! I just enjoy
the game and want to see it continue on the net.

3) I have no interest in damaging FASA in any way. They don't seem to care
about the SRTCG, so why would they care about me reposting a spoiler list
that I got before the set was going to be printed. I was able to get the
spoiler list for Underworld in the same manner before it was released.

Not wanting to be ignorant, I would like to find out what the copywrite laws
say for something like this. Could someone send me or direct me somewhere to
find out this info?

Eugene Axe
Careful with that, you might hurt someone!




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Message no. 5
From: Matt Breton mrbreton@*******.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:57:16 PDT
> >Moreover (all piracy issues aside), there's something more >_fragile_
>about >a set of >card text.

>The only definition of _fragile_ I could gather, when compared to a
>computer program, is how much easier it would be for a user to alter >and
>manipulate the whole. Unless I am wrong in this regards, can you
>elaborate a bit more please?

Sure. Unless you have the source code, or are an excellent programmer in
your own right, you're not going to have much luck in making a duplicate of
that program. For a card game, all you _really_ need is a pad and paper
(okay, a word processor and hard drive space); graphics are nice but not
necessary. Try copying, say, Descent with just a No. 2.

The difference might lie in systems like id's Doom and descendants, where
players are invited to make up their own expansions (.WADs, actually) --
I've played Simpson's Doom and X-Men Doom (although the second was kinda
lame). See the parallel to the situation at hand? Cool if you want to add
onto it. Uncool if you want to suddenly start distributing the game for
free. If id said (hypothetically) we've got Quake III (or whatever)
beta-tested, but don't want to stamp it onto CD-ROM just yet, it's only pure
arrogance that says, Hey, let's hack into the company and upload it to the
Internet for everybody -- or, moreso, that it's _right_ to do so.

> >It's difficult to "copy" a computer program -- a fairly complicated
>algorithm with >graphics and sound attached.

>Actually, with the advancement of fiber optics, modem speeds (T-
>series anyone?), and overall processing speed for computers, a computer
>program is much easier to copy now than in the past. Granted compared to a
>small text program, it is a greater challenge, >but not impossible. Look
>at the proliferation of online gaming as but an example as to how
>advancement has brought computer programming.

You mean copy as in, "I've got a fully functional version here, let me pipe
it over the modem to you" rather than, "I've looked at the program and know
what it does, let me try and design the code myself."
One is a lax activity; the other involves creativity on your own -- even if
it's driven by an existing goal.

> >Undergrounding it completely negates that possibility. Completely.

>Yet at the same time, an underground dispersion might be a route that saves
>the game as a whole.

Somehow I doubt it. What does releasing a product that is _owned_ by
someone else do, that designing cards on our own doesn't?

>A year ago this list was much more active - I believe Underworld was
> >released at the time, so talk was going on about that. Two
>years before today, the list was even more active with talk of the First
>Edition and the potential of card ideas.

>Side note - look at our card ideas then and compare that to now - talk
>about improvement!

Tell me about it :)

>So at this point, yes there are people that play the game still, but >how
>many? It is very hard now to gauge just how many people are on this list
>due to the lack of responses overall. Almost as if the caring for the game
>is gone.

Well, yes -- so?

>I would not doubt a good many people feel 'burnt' by FASA for them talking
>about Corp Wars, but then just letting it slide into obscurity. Hell,
>unless I am mistaken, FASA could not properly announce the game is canceled
>- they let it fall our of sight.

As one of the people who should have been on the inside loop, I feel just as
"burnt", Ax.

>But I feel there are people that still play the game on a (semi)-
>regular basis. An influx of new cards would solidify these people while
>potentially drawing in more. Come now, if Corp Wars were released in any
>form, don't you think this list would liven again
>with talk and new card ideas? I know I would be interested.

But then -- the version that most people have seen (speaking of the illicit
copy that was passed around at GenCon) isn't the "real" Corp War. And if
(say) Eugene posts one version (one that I know is wrong, btw) and (say) I
post a version -- who's to say which one is right? Isn't releasing a
product _neither one_ of us owns just as likely to divide as to unite?
That's why I push for the net.releases: Even the cards that I've designed
aren't "mine"; if you think one's too weak or too strong, go ahead and tweak
them.

That's a necessarily different attitude than that which "official" cards
should carry -- that at the very least in tournament settings, these cards
more or less define the way the game should be played.

>At the moment, MitS (???) does not ring a bell for me *ponder*.

Magic in the Shadows; what used to be the Grimoire.

>Seattle 2 does seem weak - hell, go on a simple route and compare the >page
>count of the original to the newest. It seems that what FASA did was to
>give the basics for the game without fleshing anything out, letting the
>player decide.

To some degree, I like this; in a game world, I don;t like having things
written in stone, wince it just leads to Librarian Weenies -- ie, Mistuh GM,
you can't do that cuz it says on paage 94 of Inaccessible Manual that the
mayor of Seattle is purple, not pink. But I've always played SR in a very
different style than the rest of the world.

What I didn't like about Seattle 2 was that after a number of interesting
descriptions of various establishments, they had two or three pages of just
name and type of building -- a phone book, really. I would've preferred a
few more in-detail descriptions.

I wasn't too pleased with the "new" descriptions, since a lot of them just
seemed to repeat information from the original Seattle Sourcebook. You'da
think in ten years a lot more would've changed, neh? And I thought it
would've been a great place to start touching on upcoming plotlines, as well
as resolutions to old ones -- in other words, a real live world! -- but it
wasn't all that inventive, that I saw.

>Also, much of the information seems interlocked with other books
>being released in the same time frame. The governor of Seattle is located
>where - in the Renraku Shutdown module. What will eventually
>happen to her? Probably the same fate in resolving what really did happen
>to the Big D - left open-ended. Yet each new book seems to push the year
>along. What year is it now - 2062?

The year thing has been a staple of SR since it began -- it was meant to
always stay 60-odd years in the future. Much better than, say, Cyberpunk
2020, which will soon be obsolete (if just because we're nowhere near in
spitting distance of the tech described within. Of course, FASA's food
riots of 1999 are also obviously fake....)

Referring to other books is a pain, yes, but something every hobby company
has done since time began (in, what, 1975?). As far as open-ended plots?
Again, I like those, since it means the world isn't absolutely fixed for a
GM -- there's enough structure that you can easily convert players from one
campaign to another, enough freedom that the two won't be absolutely
identical.

> >None of the Corp War ideas were lifted. Some of the ideas have >since
>appeared on the list, however (I think I've mentioned one or
> >two, here and there). As to how we could stop them -- why are we
> >supposed to stop them?

>It is the same arguement as to why one should not 'pirate' their cards.
>Just because they created a game and then let it float into a void does not
>automatically give them the right to take our ideas and
>potentially make a profit from it. That is saying _I_ could take the
>Amerindian Expansion, print the cards up, and sell them outright, claiming
>all credit and rights without regard to the original contributors.

No, there's a *slight* difference. The very least of which is that on the
page I have the Amerindian cards listed on, the copyright is given to FASA.
Why? Because without them, I wouldn't have the "engine" to write the cards.
A simple description -- "Ham The Sam / Street Samurai / 6Y" -- is
automatically borrowing off of their work.

_You_ (or me, or Brak, or Loki, or Eugene) shouldn't take the cards, print
'em up and sell 'em off because the copyright is really FASA's. Yes, it
sucks that they're such evil people and don't deserve a dote or compassion
-- but that's life.

> >Actually, the cost of _filing_ a law suit is pretty low. The cost >of
>maintaining one (prosecution and defense) is different, and, >simply put,
>FASA has deeper pockets than any of us (especially with > >the sale of
>FIT).

>Much of the costs would involve whether or not the offending site is
>located on American soil. Would a company be willing to spend a good
>amount to try and prosecute some site they might not even locate? Plus
>unless they were 110% sure, a false law suit might spell trouble
>for them in the long run. All this trouble for a small text file?

If that "small text file" were, say, Shadowrun, Third Edition, certainly.
The obvious difference is that one is making money, the other's not; but if
they felt that there was a significant loss of face -- ie, "You can post any
of FASA's stuff on the website and it's all right" -- they might reconsider.

I'm *not* trying to use the threat of a lawsuit as a stick. Just that I'd
rather have on my resume that I created an expansion set than that I pirated
one.


- Matt


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Message no. 6
From: Matt Breton mrbreton@*******.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:00:58 PDT
Yevgeny of the Axe sayeth:

>2) I am not going to try and make money on this; it's not mine! I just
>enjoy the game and want to see it continue on the net.

I'll offer you a concession of sorts.

I have (on ZIP disk at work) a more-or-less complete net.expansion set,
Seattle in the Gaslight, which I've mentioned on occasion. Now, it _still_
needs a little tweaking -- six more Objectives, eight new Challenges, a few
cards that aren't where I would like them yet. But, I'll post it next
weekend (not this upcoming one -- won't be within eye-glzing distance of a
computer).

Give it a look-over. Tell me what you think. Show me you've read the
cards. :) It's got a few interesting ideas, and a number of different
lifting-off spots than Underworld and Corp War did.




- Matt


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Message no. 7
From: David Reis david.reis@*****.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:47:25 -0700
At 09:39 AM 5/28/99 -0700, Matt Breton <mrbreton@*******.com> wrote:
>I have (on ZIP disk at work) a more-or-less complete net.expansion set,
>Seattle in the Gaslight, which I've mentioned on occasion. Now, it _still_
>needs a little tweaking -- six more Objectives, eight new Challenges, a few
>cards that aren't where I would like them yet. But, I'll post it next
>weekend (not this upcoming one -- won't be within eye-glzing distance of a
>computer).

Please do post this one soon. I've been waiting for it since I saw it
mentioned on your web site. AEX is good, but just doesn't have the focus
I'm looking for (life on the streets in the shadows).

>Give it a look-over. Tell me what you think. Show me you've read the
>cards. :) It's got a few interesting ideas, and a number of different
>lifting-off spots than Underworld and Corp War did.

I'll do my best given the limited amount of time I have to spend on such
things.

David
Message no. 8
From: >>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<< axlrose@**********.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
Matt scribed:

>Sure. Unless you have the source code, or are an excellent programmer in
>your own right, you're not going to have much luck in making a duplicate of
>that program. For a card game, all you _really_ need is a pad and paper
>(okay, a word processor and hard drive space); graphics are nice but not
>necessary. Try copying, say, Descent with just a No. 2.

I was looking at the situation as taking something another created without
compensation to the creator. Yes, it is much, much easier creating cards
to a card game than programming a computer game from scratch. But then
we're comparing apples to oranges here, to use that old phrase. But in
making a duplicate of either, a text file is much easier to copy due to
size. Yet copying a program is not impossible either.


>The difference might lie in systems like id's Doom and descendants, where
>players are invited to make up their own expansions (.WADs, actually) --
<Snipped...> See the parallel to the situation at hand? Cool if you want
to add
>onto it. Uncool if you want to suddenly start distributing the game for
free.

Actually, the proliferation of wads and player-creator expansions seem to
be encouraged. How many of the 4x games (Civilization and their kind...)
have editors to create maps and new icons? Diablo has started to gain a
fair number of 'mods' that people have ~broken~ the executable file to
alter the original. But yes, giving the original game away for free is not
good. Yet it does happen, no matter the off-sets and protections that are
added to restrict such activities.


>If id said (hypothetically) we've got Quake III (or whatever)
>beta-tested, but don't want to stamp it onto CD-ROM just yet, it's only pure
>arrogance that says, Hey, let's hack into the company and upload it to the
>Internet for everybody -- or, moreso, that it's _right_ to do so.

Yet it does happen... much of the desire seems to be with the hype
surrounding the thing in question. "Star Wars - The Phantom Menace" is
already on bootleg tapes in Hong Kong and probably selling fast. The
desire is there for a product that people do not want to wait for. Or to
have bragging rights to be the first to possess such a thing. Perhaps the
same can be said for Corp Wars - the desire for new cards is there and
could help jump start the game, so people will go out of their way to
fulfill that desire. Or go an extra mile to have that desire fulfilled.
Everyone seems to have a price they say, so what would it cost someone to
upload another's work without having a guilty conscious later?

<Snipped...>


>>Yet at the same time, an underground dispersion might be a route that saves
>>the game as a whole.

>Somehow I doubt it. What does releasing a product that is _owned_ by
>someone else do, that designing cards on our own doesn't?

There is something about Corp Wars cards being 'official' because they were
created by FASA themselves. Whereas the Amerindian Expansion is excellent
in its own right (hell I have a few card ideas in there so I'll toot my own
horn *grin*), the average player that is not on the list here might not
consider such an expansion as proper. Nor the person might not even
attempt to use the cards because they might feel that though we have tested
and retested, edited, ad nauseum, the cards, that person might find the set
broken. Yet the same person probably thinks the Remington 750 is an
excellent card.

<Snipped...>


>>So at this point, yes there are people that play the game still, but how
>>many? It is very hard now to gauge just how many people are on this list
>>due to the lack of responses overall. Almost as if the caring for the game
>>is gone.

>Well, yes -- so?

Saving personal pride, _I_ for one would appreciate if/when someone reviews
and rips my ideas apart (using fairly logical arguement, of course). I
feel bad because I have been meaning to get to Don's latest edition to the
list, but time constraint has been a major hinderance. Yet if I have no
drive from the list to complete my card ideas, then other pursuits will
take over - thus a potential loss to the expansion of the game.

<Snipped...>


>As one of the people who should have been on the inside loop, I feel just as
>"burnt", Ax.

Hmmm, without sounding like an idiot, the only two possibilities I can
think of here is that you asked to be a tester and were rejected or you
were given the responsibility, but FASA later revoked your privileges
*shrug*. If you wish, elaborate please.

<Snipped...>


>But then -- the version that most people have seen (speaking of the illicit
>copy that was passed around at GenCon) isn't the "real" Corp War. And if
>(say) Eugene posts one version (one that I know is wrong, btw)...

*boggle* I was under the impression that Eugene found a listing from the
same place on the internet where he retrieved Underworld before they were
released. Also, I assume that unless the first expansion was later wrong
to him, he would not have put much faith in a listing for the second
expansion. So unless there are NOT cards with the names he used in his
deck idea, it seems fairly logical the card names are correct. Of course
there was not an explanation for those cards, so I can see various versions
being right and wrong.


>...and (say) I post a version -- who's to say which one is right? Isn't
>releasing a product _neither one_ of us owns just as likely to divide as
>to unite? That's why I push for the net.releases: Even the cards that
>I've designed aren't "mine"; if you think one's too weak or too strong,
>go ahead and tweak them.

But until there is (ever) an official release from FASA, two versions of
the same cards could benefit a player to suit his/her/its playing style.
For example, two of my card ideas - "Bloodlust" and "Pacifism" : both
of us
have different views on how the card should be played. Which version is
right and which is wrong - or are they both correct in their own ways? Yet
with a bootleg release of official cards from FASA, if Eugene posted a list
claiming they were correct because they were derived from them, how much
validity would you have Matt if you claimed they are wrong because you
know, but really could not prove it without revealing another version?
Damned if you do and damned if you don't...

<Snipped...>


>>At the moment, MitS (???) does not ring a bell for me *ponder*.

>Magic in the Shadows; what used to be the Grimoire.

Ahh yes, and I have that book. Just shows how much of an impression it
left me.


>>Seattle 2 does seem weak - hell, go on a simple route and compare the >page
>>count of the original to the newest. It seems that what FASA did was to
>>give the basics for the game without fleshing anything out, letting the
>>player decide.

>To some degree, I like this; in a game world, I don;t like having things
>written in stone, wince it just leads to Librarian Weenies -- ie, Mistuh GM,
>you can't do that cuz it says on page 94 of Inaccessible Manual that the
>mayor of Seattle is purple, not pink. But I've always played SR in a very
>different style than the rest of the world.

What I was pushing for was not the minor details, but some resolution, or
expansion upon past threads. Having the Big D get wasted on his election
night was a major event to the whole Shadowrun universe. Yet now it seems
to be insignificant, even though his 'death' caused some major events in
the Corporations themselves. Chi-town a.k.a Bug City suddenly is cleared
out... is Chicago now back to normal? You mean the people that were locked
inside are not out causing trouble to a government that rejected them? The
corps that had gear and goods locked in there are not attempting to
retrieve them from the ones that might have stolen them? And why the
change from having the Nexus an open forum for people to post comments
(with the date and time stamps to boot!) to what you mentioned below - a
telephone book? The flavor is missing.


>What I didn't like about Seattle 2 was that after a number of interesting
>descriptions of various establishments, they had two or three pages of just
>name and type of building -- a phone book, really. I would've preferred a
>few more in-detail descriptions.

>I wasn't too pleased with the "new" descriptions, since a lot of them just
>seemed to repeat information from the original Seattle Sourcebook. You'da
>think in ten years a lot more would've changed, neh? And I thought it
>would've been a great place to start touching on upcoming plotlines, as well
>as resolutions to old ones -- in other words, a real live world! -- but it
>wasn't all that inventive, that I saw.

Without this thread getting into a FASA bashing event, could it be possible
that they are running out of ideas and spinning their wheels? Instead of
concentrating their efforts to expand in new directions, a rehash of the
old with a new coat of paint to appease the masses (us players/readers)
while FASA works upon their newest games and toys - that one airplane game
or whatever it was called, is becoming the norm? Will it be a matter of
time before FASA sees the Shadowrun universe as they saw the card game - a
quick one-shot gimmick that needs no more attention except for the
occasional release of such rehashes?

<Snipped...>


>The year thing has been a staple of SR since it began -- it was meant to
>always stay 60-odd years in the future. Much better than, say, Cyberpunk
>2020, which will soon be obsolete (if just because we're nowhere near in
>spitting distance of the tech described within. Of course, FASA's food
>riots of 1999 are also obviously fake....)

I know about the desire to stay a good pace ahead of reality. Perhaps it
is just the lack of events that occur during a normal Shadowrun year before
everything seems to happen all at once that seems unrealistic.

<Snipped...>


>>It is the same arguement as to why one should not 'pirate' their cards.
>>Just because they created a game and then let it float into a void does not
>>automatically give them the right to take our ideas and
>>potentially make a profit from it. That is saying _I_ could take the
>>Amerindian Expansion, print the cards up, and sell them outright, claiming
>>all credit and rights without regard to the original contributors.

>No, there's a *slight* difference. The very least of which is that on the
>page I have the Amerindian cards listed on, the copyright is given to FASA.
>Why? Because without them, I wouldn't have the "engine" to write the cards.

> A simple description -- "Ham The Sam / Street Samurai / 6Y" -- is
>automatically borrowing off of their work.

That seems to be a dangerous path - giving the copyright to FASA without
compensation. What could stop them from using such a right and restricting
all of us to NOT use the cards now until they release them? Just because
we borrowed their engine does not grant them automatic rights to our
creations. Using the Diablo example above, Blizzard can not claim rights
to the mods other people have created ~just~ because it uses their Diablo
execution file. Blizzard, like FASA, can attempt restrict us from using
it, but with us purchasing the original cards, we can privately alter them
as we see fit. Once we attempt to sell those alterations will the fine
lines be drawn. Without going into another thread, wasn't this was WotC
was pushing for with their exclusive clause they had a while back - that
all card games of this variety originated in part from their original idea?
Except the other companies were making money from it...


>_You_ (or me, or Brak, or Loki, or Eugene) shouldn't take the cards, print
>'em up and sell 'em off because the copyright is really FASA's. Yes, it
>sucks that they're such evil people and don't deserve a dote or compassion
>-- but that's life.

My point is if we sell our card ideas using their engine, yes we are
infringing upon their copyright. But they have no claim upon our creation
of said cards.

<Snipped...>


>I'm *not* trying to use the threat of a lawsuit as a stick. Just that I'd
>rather have on my resume that I created an expansion set than that I pirated
>one.

Ahh, but would be so bold to actually claim to do such a deed? *grin* It
would be very detrimental to list ~all~ the illegal things I have done
without quickly feeling the heat from all around..... So I mute up.

>- Matt

>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<
Message no. 9
From: >>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<< axlrose@**********.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 09:56:07 -0400 (EDT)
Interesting, to say the least...

After reading some of the comments, especially the panic to have whatever
web site that has a listing to remove it, all I can do is laugh. Let's
look at a broader picture to see a parallel view of this situation.
Computer games are popular and in much more demand than cardboard cards
from a defunked game. Also, companies that deal with such games I would
pretty much accept have a larger amount of revenue to play around with than
FASA. If money was not an issue, Corp Wars would have been released.

Now a company releases a new computer game and within hours, there are
numerous warez sites across the Internet with illegal copies of the full
game. And countless number of people download the full game without just
compensation for the creator(s) of said game, much less the company
fronting the whole package. As hard as creators program games to have
anti-theft and copyright requirements to play the game, people out there
create hacks to by-pass those ~annoyances~. Even if the companies went
after the major warez sites, there would be no way to stop them all with
new ones popping up to replace those shut down for whatever reason.

So some site has a listing of the unreleased cards. I would not doubt
there are more than one out there in virtual reality. How the sites got
the cards can be anyone's wild guess. Perhaps someone broke the NDA - FASA
would then probably return to in-house test playing and all of you people
that do test for them now would be SOL. Or perhaps FASA is secretly
releasing the cards in various places to see if there is still an appeal
for the cards. From what I have seen for reactions to FASA products in
general in _my_ area on this planet is not a positive one. The same number
of cards collect dust on the shelf at the one hobby shop while the older
Shadowrun books collect even more dust. Even the latest books for the game
seem a rehash of older materials... drifting from the point a moment.

I would like to see a listing of the cards for Corp Wars. Partially to see
how many ideas from past card ideas people posted here over the years are
'lifted' for the game. Before anyone flies off the handle, what would stop
FASA from doing such a thing? How could we stop them from taking something
like the collected card ideas of many people that create the Amerindian
Expansion set and run with it, altering a name here and there to appear as
fresh and new? After Underworld was released, I saw similar card ideas
from previous posting - nothing exact, but very similar. Something to
think about...

So someone released a deck with Corp Wars cards listed. Granted a good
many of us have no idea what the cards say (I would love to see 'Delta
Clinic' since I have a card idea offline to compare and contrast).
Whatever web site has/had the listing is not worried about FASA. Brak -
the only reason I can think of (not a lawyer mind you) is you signed an
agreement, thus making it a legal document. I highly doubt FASA would put
out the expense to hunt down the parties involved and attempt to prosecute
them in a court of law. Especially if said party is overseas to America.

Jon Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.com> wrote :
>Not to mention, do you really think that Fasa folks don't subscribe to the
>list? I can't imagine that they don't (or didn't, when there was actually
>something to be concerned about....)

If they did, then why didn't they answer questions in the past on the list,
instead of us collecting questions and having Loki send them a mass e-mail?

Just various thoughts,
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<
Message no. 10
From: Matt Breton mrbreton@*******.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 12:55:09 PDT
>After reading some of the comments, especially the panic to have
>whatever web site that has a listing to remove it, all I can do is >laugh.
>Let's look at a broader picture to see a parallel view of >this situation.
>[...] Now a company releases a new computer game and >within hours, there
>are numerous warez sites across the Internet with
>illegal copies of the full game. And countless number of people >download
>the full game without just compensation for the creator(s)
>of said game, much less the company fronting the whole package.

But also note: These are illegal sites, and usually shut down with the same
speed they've been opened up. Moreover (all piracy issues aside), there's
something more _fragile_ about a set of card text. It's difficult to "copy"
a computer program -- a fairly complicated algorithm with graphics and sound
attached. Words, on the other hand, are very easy to disperse. I *like*
the game, and I'd like to see -- however unlikely it is -- Corp War
published. Undergrounding it completely negates that possibility.
Completely.

>Even the latest books for the game seem a rehash of older >materials...
>drifting from the point a moment.

I was really disappointed with Seattle 2 (which I thought had _serious_
potential in the way Bug City did). I haven't looked at MitS long enough to
judge it, but it seems like there's too much pre-existing material to _not_
be mentioned (sadly). At least they seem to have tried to rectify some of
the more munchkin stuff (the paths from Tir na Nog, for instance), but I've
skimmed it, rather than read it.

>I would like to see a listing of the cards for Corp Wars. Partially
>to see how many ideas from past card ideas people posted here over
>the years are 'lifted' for the game.

None of the Corp War ideas were lifted. Some of the ideas have since
appeared on the list, however (I think I've mentioned one or two, here and
there). As to how we could stop them -- why are we supposed to stop them?

I'm happy to discuss Corp War with anyone, so long as you realize I'm not
going to tell you anything very particular. :)

>I highly doubt FASA would put out the expense to hunt down the
>parties involved and attempt to prosecute them in a court of law.

Actually, the cost of _filing_ a law suit is pretty low. The cost of
maintaining one (prosecution and defense) is different, and, simply put,
FASA has deeper pockets than any of us (especially with the sale of FIT).
FASA might (*might*) be willing to toss a thousand bucks into the air to
shut down a number of websites. I, on the other hand, can't afford a day
out of work, let alone a few hundred bucks on my part, to mount a defense.
That assumes that I'm willing to support a website after they show me an
injunction. Usually the threat is enough. FASA's been cool about web-stuff
(as opposed to, say, TSR); I don't see a reason to provoke anyone.


- Matt


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Message no. 11
From: >>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<< axlrose@**********.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:24:29 -0400 (EDT)
Matt wrote:

<Snipped...>

>But also note: These are illegal sites, and usually shut down with the same
>speed they've been opened up.

Usually... without going into further details, many times these sites are
located overseas to America and are very difficult to track down the
originating point. The better sites have numerous server jumps while
masking itself along the way. Plus if a site feels the heat approaching,
they'll shut themselves down and just 'move'. Hmmm, a card idea I feel
brooding.


>Moreover (all piracy issues aside), there's something more _fragile_ about
a set of >card text.

The only definition of _fragile_ I could gather, when compared to a
computer program, is how much easier it would be for a user to alter and
manipulate the whole. Unless I am wrong in this regards, can you elaborate
a bit more please?


>It's difficult to "copy" a computer program -- a fairly complicated
algorithm with >graphics and sound attached.

Actually, with the advancement of fiber optics, modem speeds (T-series
anyone?), and overall processing speed for computers, a computer program is
much easier to copy now than in the past. Granted compared to a small text
program, it is a greater challenge, but not impossible. Look at the
proliferation of online gaming as but an example as to how advancement has
brought computer programming.


>Undergrounding it completely negates that possibility. Completely.

Yet at the same time, an underground dispersion might be a route that saves
the game as a whole. A year ago this list was much more active - I believe
Underworld was released at the time, so talk was going on about that. Two
years before today, the list was even more active with talk of the First
Edition and the potential of card ideas. Side note - look at our card
ideas then and compare that to now - talk about improvement! So at this
point, yes there are people that play the game still, but how many? It is
very hard now to gauge just how many people are on this list due to the
lack of responses overall. Almost as if the caring for the game is gone.
I would not doubt a good many people feel 'burnt' by FASA for them talking
about Corp Wars, but then just letting it slide into obscurity. Hell,
unless I am mistaken, FASA could not properly announce the game is canceled
- they let it fall our of sight. But I feel there are people that still
play the game on a (semi)-regular basis. An influx of new cards would
solidify these people while potentially drawing in more. Come now, if Corp
Wars were released in any form, don't you think this list would liven again
with talk and new card ideas? I know I would be interested.


>>Even the latest books for the game seem a rehash of older materials...
>>drifting from the point a moment.

>I was really disappointed with Seattle 2 (which I thought had _serious_
>potential in the way Bug City did). I haven't looked at MitS long enough to
>judge it, but it seems like there's too much pre-existing material to _not_
>be mentioned (sadly). At least they seem to have tried to rectify some of
>the more munchkin stuff (the paths from Tir na Nog, for instance), but I've
>skimmed it, rather than read it.

At the moment, MitS (???) does not ring a bell for me *ponder*. Seattle 2
does seem weak - hell, go on a simple route and compare the page count of
the original to the newest. It seems that what FASA did was to give the
basics for the game without fleshing anything out, letting the player
decide. Also, much of the information seems interlocked with other books
being released in the same time frame. The governor of Seattle is located
where - in the Renraku Shutdown module. What will eventually happen to
her? Probably the same fate in resolving what really did happen to the Big
D - left open-ended. Yet each new book seems to push the year along. What
year is it now - 2062?


>None of the Corp War ideas were lifted. Some of the ideas have since
>appeared on the list, however (I think I've mentioned one or two, here and
>there). As to how we could stop them -- why are we supposed to stop them?

It is the same arguement as to why one should not 'pirate' their cards.
Just because they created a game and then let it float into a void does not
automatically give them the right to take our ideas and potentially make a
profit from it. That is saying _I_ could take the Amerindian Expansion,
print the cards up, and sell them outright, claiming all credit and rights
without regard to the original contributors.


>Actually, the cost of _filing_ a law suit is pretty low. The cost of
>maintaining one (prosecution and defense) is different, and, simply put,
>FASA has deeper pockets than any of us (especially with the sale of FIT).

Much of the costs would involve whether or not the offending site is
located on American soil. Would a company be willing to spend a good
amount to try and prosecute some site they might not even locate? Plus
unless they were 110% sure, a false law suit might spell trouble for them
in the long run. All this trouble for a small text file?

And be wary about saying FASA has the revenue from the sale of FIT. When
Corp Wars was put on hiatus, someone mentioned this point as to why FASA
could not continue the printing. Another replied that the sale was to
certain individuals within FASA, not the company proper. Thus the company
could not afford it, but these individuals could.

<Snipped...>

>- Matt
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<
Message no. 12
From: Eugene Axe eugeneaxe@******.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:57:17 PDT
I have been thinking about the responses. These are some statements of my
position.

1) I am not a playtester. I did not sign any non-disclosure form of any
kind.

2) I am not going to try and make money on this; it's not mine! I just enjoy
the game and want to see it continue on the net.

3) I have no interest in damaging FASA in any way. They don't seem to care
about the SRTCG, so why would they care about me reposting a spoiler list
that I got before the set was going to be printed. I was able to get the
spoiler list for Underworld in the same manner before it was released.

Not wanting to be ignorant, I would like to find out what the copywrite laws
say for something like this. Could someone send me or direct me somewhere to
find out this info?

Eugene Axe
Careful with that, you might hurt someone!




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Message no. 13
From: Matt Breton mrbreton@*******.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:57:16 PDT
> >Moreover (all piracy issues aside), there's something more >_fragile_
>about >a set of >card text.

>The only definition of _fragile_ I could gather, when compared to a
>computer program, is how much easier it would be for a user to alter >and
>manipulate the whole. Unless I am wrong in this regards, can you
>elaborate a bit more please?

Sure. Unless you have the source code, or are an excellent programmer in
your own right, you're not going to have much luck in making a duplicate of
that program. For a card game, all you _really_ need is a pad and paper
(okay, a word processor and hard drive space); graphics are nice but not
necessary. Try copying, say, Descent with just a No. 2.

The difference might lie in systems like id's Doom and descendants, where
players are invited to make up their own expansions (.WADs, actually) --
I've played Simpson's Doom and X-Men Doom (although the second was kinda
lame). See the parallel to the situation at hand? Cool if you want to add
onto it. Uncool if you want to suddenly start distributing the game for
free. If id said (hypothetically) we've got Quake III (or whatever)
beta-tested, but don't want to stamp it onto CD-ROM just yet, it's only pure
arrogance that says, Hey, let's hack into the company and upload it to the
Internet for everybody -- or, moreso, that it's _right_ to do so.

> >It's difficult to "copy" a computer program -- a fairly complicated
>algorithm with >graphics and sound attached.

>Actually, with the advancement of fiber optics, modem speeds (T-
>series anyone?), and overall processing speed for computers, a computer
>program is much easier to copy now than in the past. Granted compared to a
>small text program, it is a greater challenge, >but not impossible. Look
>at the proliferation of online gaming as but an example as to how
>advancement has brought computer programming.

You mean copy as in, "I've got a fully functional version here, let me pipe
it over the modem to you" rather than, "I've looked at the program and know
what it does, let me try and design the code myself."
One is a lax activity; the other involves creativity on your own -- even if
it's driven by an existing goal.

> >Undergrounding it completely negates that possibility. Completely.

>Yet at the same time, an underground dispersion might be a route that saves
>the game as a whole.

Somehow I doubt it. What does releasing a product that is _owned_ by
someone else do, that designing cards on our own doesn't?

>A year ago this list was much more active - I believe Underworld was
> >released at the time, so talk was going on about that. Two
>years before today, the list was even more active with talk of the First
>Edition and the potential of card ideas.

>Side note - look at our card ideas then and compare that to now - talk
>about improvement!

Tell me about it :)

>So at this point, yes there are people that play the game still, but >how
>many? It is very hard now to gauge just how many people are on this list
>due to the lack of responses overall. Almost as if the caring for the game
>is gone.

Well, yes -- so?

>I would not doubt a good many people feel 'burnt' by FASA for them talking
>about Corp Wars, but then just letting it slide into obscurity. Hell,
>unless I am mistaken, FASA could not properly announce the game is canceled
>- they let it fall our of sight.

As one of the people who should have been on the inside loop, I feel just as
"burnt", Ax.

>But I feel there are people that still play the game on a (semi)-
>regular basis. An influx of new cards would solidify these people while
>potentially drawing in more. Come now, if Corp Wars were released in any
>form, don't you think this list would liven again
>with talk and new card ideas? I know I would be interested.

But then -- the version that most people have seen (speaking of the illicit
copy that was passed around at GenCon) isn't the "real" Corp War. And if
(say) Eugene posts one version (one that I know is wrong, btw) and (say) I
post a version -- who's to say which one is right? Isn't releasing a
product _neither one_ of us owns just as likely to divide as to unite?
That's why I push for the net.releases: Even the cards that I've designed
aren't "mine"; if you think one's too weak or too strong, go ahead and tweak
them.

That's a necessarily different attitude than that which "official" cards
should carry -- that at the very least in tournament settings, these cards
more or less define the way the game should be played.

>At the moment, MitS (???) does not ring a bell for me *ponder*.

Magic in the Shadows; what used to be the Grimoire.

>Seattle 2 does seem weak - hell, go on a simple route and compare the >page
>count of the original to the newest. It seems that what FASA did was to
>give the basics for the game without fleshing anything out, letting the
>player decide.

To some degree, I like this; in a game world, I don;t like having things
written in stone, wince it just leads to Librarian Weenies -- ie, Mistuh GM,
you can't do that cuz it says on paage 94 of Inaccessible Manual that the
mayor of Seattle is purple, not pink. But I've always played SR in a very
different style than the rest of the world.

What I didn't like about Seattle 2 was that after a number of interesting
descriptions of various establishments, they had two or three pages of just
name and type of building -- a phone book, really. I would've preferred a
few more in-detail descriptions.

I wasn't too pleased with the "new" descriptions, since a lot of them just
seemed to repeat information from the original Seattle Sourcebook. You'da
think in ten years a lot more would've changed, neh? And I thought it
would've been a great place to start touching on upcoming plotlines, as well
as resolutions to old ones -- in other words, a real live world! -- but it
wasn't all that inventive, that I saw.

>Also, much of the information seems interlocked with other books
>being released in the same time frame. The governor of Seattle is located
>where - in the Renraku Shutdown module. What will eventually
>happen to her? Probably the same fate in resolving what really did happen
>to the Big D - left open-ended. Yet each new book seems to push the year
>along. What year is it now - 2062?

The year thing has been a staple of SR since it began -- it was meant to
always stay 60-odd years in the future. Much better than, say, Cyberpunk
2020, which will soon be obsolete (if just because we're nowhere near in
spitting distance of the tech described within. Of course, FASA's food
riots of 1999 are also obviously fake....)

Referring to other books is a pain, yes, but something every hobby company
has done since time began (in, what, 1975?). As far as open-ended plots?
Again, I like those, since it means the world isn't absolutely fixed for a
GM -- there's enough structure that you can easily convert players from one
campaign to another, enough freedom that the two won't be absolutely
identical.

> >None of the Corp War ideas were lifted. Some of the ideas have >since
>appeared on the list, however (I think I've mentioned one or
> >two, here and there). As to how we could stop them -- why are we
> >supposed to stop them?

>It is the same arguement as to why one should not 'pirate' their cards.
>Just because they created a game and then let it float into a void does not
>automatically give them the right to take our ideas and
>potentially make a profit from it. That is saying _I_ could take the
>Amerindian Expansion, print the cards up, and sell them outright, claiming
>all credit and rights without regard to the original contributors.

No, there's a *slight* difference. The very least of which is that on the
page I have the Amerindian cards listed on, the copyright is given to FASA.
Why? Because without them, I wouldn't have the "engine" to write the cards.
A simple description -- "Ham The Sam / Street Samurai / 6Y" -- is
automatically borrowing off of their work.

_You_ (or me, or Brak, or Loki, or Eugene) shouldn't take the cards, print
'em up and sell 'em off because the copyright is really FASA's. Yes, it
sucks that they're such evil people and don't deserve a dote or compassion
-- but that's life.

> >Actually, the cost of _filing_ a law suit is pretty low. The cost >of
>maintaining one (prosecution and defense) is different, and, >simply put,
>FASA has deeper pockets than any of us (especially with > >the sale of
>FIT).

>Much of the costs would involve whether or not the offending site is
>located on American soil. Would a company be willing to spend a good
>amount to try and prosecute some site they might not even locate? Plus
>unless they were 110% sure, a false law suit might spell trouble
>for them in the long run. All this trouble for a small text file?

If that "small text file" were, say, Shadowrun, Third Edition, certainly.
The obvious difference is that one is making money, the other's not; but if
they felt that there was a significant loss of face -- ie, "You can post any
of FASA's stuff on the website and it's all right" -- they might reconsider.

I'm *not* trying to use the threat of a lawsuit as a stick. Just that I'd
rather have on my resume that I created an expansion set than that I pirated
one.


- Matt


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Message no. 14
From: Matt Breton mrbreton@*******.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:00:58 PDT
Yevgeny of the Axe sayeth:

>2) I am not going to try and make money on this; it's not mine! I just
>enjoy the game and want to see it continue on the net.

I'll offer you a concession of sorts.

I have (on ZIP disk at work) a more-or-less complete net.expansion set,
Seattle in the Gaslight, which I've mentioned on occasion. Now, it _still_
needs a little tweaking -- six more Objectives, eight new Challenges, a few
cards that aren't where I would like them yet. But, I'll post it next
weekend (not this upcoming one -- won't be within eye-glzing distance of a
computer).

Give it a look-over. Tell me what you think. Show me you've read the
cards. :) It's got a few interesting ideas, and a number of different
lifting-off spots than Underworld and Corp War did.




- Matt


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Message no. 15
From: David Reis david.reis@*****.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:47:25 -0700
At 09:39 AM 5/28/99 -0700, Matt Breton <mrbreton@*******.com> wrote:
>I have (on ZIP disk at work) a more-or-less complete net.expansion set,
>Seattle in the Gaslight, which I've mentioned on occasion. Now, it _still_
>needs a little tweaking -- six more Objectives, eight new Challenges, a few
>cards that aren't where I would like them yet. But, I'll post it next
>weekend (not this upcoming one -- won't be within eye-glzing distance of a
>computer).

Please do post this one soon. I've been waiting for it since I saw it
mentioned on your web site. AEX is good, but just doesn't have the focus
I'm looking for (life on the streets in the shadows).

>Give it a look-over. Tell me what you think. Show me you've read the
>cards. :) It's got a few interesting ideas, and a number of different
>lifting-off spots than Underworld and Corp War did.

I'll do my best given the limited amount of time I have to spend on such
things.

David
Message no. 16
From: >>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<< axlrose@**********.com
Subject: More on that Corp War deck...
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
Matt scribed:

>Sure. Unless you have the source code, or are an excellent programmer in
>your own right, you're not going to have much luck in making a duplicate of
>that program. For a card game, all you _really_ need is a pad and paper
>(okay, a word processor and hard drive space); graphics are nice but not
>necessary. Try copying, say, Descent with just a No. 2.

I was looking at the situation as taking something another created without
compensation to the creator. Yes, it is much, much easier creating cards
to a card game than programming a computer game from scratch. But then
we're comparing apples to oranges here, to use that old phrase. But in
making a duplicate of either, a text file is much easier to copy due to
size. Yet copying a program is not impossible either.


>The difference might lie in systems like id's Doom and descendants, where
>players are invited to make up their own expansions (.WADs, actually) --
<Snipped...> See the parallel to the situation at hand? Cool if you want
to add
>onto it. Uncool if you want to suddenly start distributing the game for
free.

Actually, the proliferation of wads and player-creator expansions seem to
be encouraged. How many of the 4x games (Civilization and their kind...)
have editors to create maps and new icons? Diablo has started to gain a
fair number of 'mods' that people have ~broken~ the executable file to
alter the original. But yes, giving the original game away for free is not
good. Yet it does happen, no matter the off-sets and protections that are
added to restrict such activities.


>If id said (hypothetically) we've got Quake III (or whatever)
>beta-tested, but don't want to stamp it onto CD-ROM just yet, it's only pure
>arrogance that says, Hey, let's hack into the company and upload it to the
>Internet for everybody -- or, moreso, that it's _right_ to do so.

Yet it does happen... much of the desire seems to be with the hype
surrounding the thing in question. "Star Wars - The Phantom Menace" is
already on bootleg tapes in Hong Kong and probably selling fast. The
desire is there for a product that people do not want to wait for. Or to
have bragging rights to be the first to possess such a thing. Perhaps the
same can be said for Corp Wars - the desire for new cards is there and
could help jump start the game, so people will go out of their way to
fulfill that desire. Or go an extra mile to have that desire fulfilled.
Everyone seems to have a price they say, so what would it cost someone to
upload another's work without having a guilty conscious later?

<Snipped...>


>>Yet at the same time, an underground dispersion might be a route that saves
>>the game as a whole.

>Somehow I doubt it. What does releasing a product that is _owned_ by
>someone else do, that designing cards on our own doesn't?

There is something about Corp Wars cards being 'official' because they were
created by FASA themselves. Whereas the Amerindian Expansion is excellent
in its own right (hell I have a few card ideas in there so I'll toot my own
horn *grin*), the average player that is not on the list here might not
consider such an expansion as proper. Nor the person might not even
attempt to use the cards because they might feel that though we have tested
and retested, edited, ad nauseum, the cards, that person might find the set
broken. Yet the same person probably thinks the Remington 750 is an
excellent card.

<Snipped...>


>>So at this point, yes there are people that play the game still, but how
>>many? It is very hard now to gauge just how many people are on this list
>>due to the lack of responses overall. Almost as if the caring for the game
>>is gone.

>Well, yes -- so?

Saving personal pride, _I_ for one would appreciate if/when someone reviews
and rips my ideas apart (using fairly logical arguement, of course). I
feel bad because I have been meaning to get to Don's latest edition to the
list, but time constraint has been a major hinderance. Yet if I have no
drive from the list to complete my card ideas, then other pursuits will
take over - thus a potential loss to the expansion of the game.

<Snipped...>


>As one of the people who should have been on the inside loop, I feel just as
>"burnt", Ax.

Hmmm, without sounding like an idiot, the only two possibilities I can
think of here is that you asked to be a tester and were rejected or you
were given the responsibility, but FASA later revoked your privileges
*shrug*. If you wish, elaborate please.

<Snipped...>


>But then -- the version that most people have seen (speaking of the illicit
>copy that was passed around at GenCon) isn't the "real" Corp War. And if
>(say) Eugene posts one version (one that I know is wrong, btw)...

*boggle* I was under the impression that Eugene found a listing from the
same place on the internet where he retrieved Underworld before they were
released. Also, I assume that unless the first expansion was later wrong
to him, he would not have put much faith in a listing for the second
expansion. So unless there are NOT cards with the names he used in his
deck idea, it seems fairly logical the card names are correct. Of course
there was not an explanation for those cards, so I can see various versions
being right and wrong.


>...and (say) I post a version -- who's to say which one is right? Isn't
>releasing a product _neither one_ of us owns just as likely to divide as
>to unite? That's why I push for the net.releases: Even the cards that
>I've designed aren't "mine"; if you think one's too weak or too strong,
>go ahead and tweak them.

But until there is (ever) an official release from FASA, two versions of
the same cards could benefit a player to suit his/her/its playing style.
For example, two of my card ideas - "Bloodlust" and "Pacifism" : both
of us
have different views on how the card should be played. Which version is
right and which is wrong - or are they both correct in their own ways? Yet
with a bootleg release of official cards from FASA, if Eugene posted a list
claiming they were correct because they were derived from them, how much
validity would you have Matt if you claimed they are wrong because you
know, but really could not prove it without revealing another version?
Damned if you do and damned if you don't...

<Snipped...>


>>At the moment, MitS (???) does not ring a bell for me *ponder*.

>Magic in the Shadows; what used to be the Grimoire.

Ahh yes, and I have that book. Just shows how much of an impression it
left me.


>>Seattle 2 does seem weak - hell, go on a simple route and compare the >page
>>count of the original to the newest. It seems that what FASA did was to
>>give the basics for the game without fleshing anything out, letting the
>>player decide.

>To some degree, I like this; in a game world, I don;t like having things
>written in stone, wince it just leads to Librarian Weenies -- ie, Mistuh GM,
>you can't do that cuz it says on page 94 of Inaccessible Manual that the
>mayor of Seattle is purple, not pink. But I've always played SR in a very
>different style than the rest of the world.

What I was pushing for was not the minor details, but some resolution, or
expansion upon past threads. Having the Big D get wasted on his election
night was a major event to the whole Shadowrun universe. Yet now it seems
to be insignificant, even though his 'death' caused some major events in
the Corporations themselves. Chi-town a.k.a Bug City suddenly is cleared
out... is Chicago now back to normal? You mean the people that were locked
inside are not out causing trouble to a government that rejected them? The
corps that had gear and goods locked in there are not attempting to
retrieve them from the ones that might have stolen them? And why the
change from having the Nexus an open forum for people to post comments
(with the date and time stamps to boot!) to what you mentioned below - a
telephone book? The flavor is missing.


>What I didn't like about Seattle 2 was that after a number of interesting
>descriptions of various establishments, they had two or three pages of just
>name and type of building -- a phone book, really. I would've preferred a
>few more in-detail descriptions.

>I wasn't too pleased with the "new" descriptions, since a lot of them just
>seemed to repeat information from the original Seattle Sourcebook. You'da
>think in ten years a lot more would've changed, neh? And I thought it
>would've been a great place to start touching on upcoming plotlines, as well
>as resolutions to old ones -- in other words, a real live world! -- but it
>wasn't all that inventive, that I saw.

Without this thread getting into a FASA bashing event, could it be possible
that they are running out of ideas and spinning their wheels? Instead of
concentrating their efforts to expand in new directions, a rehash of the
old with a new coat of paint to appease the masses (us players/readers)
while FASA works upon their newest games and toys - that one airplane game
or whatever it was called, is becoming the norm? Will it be a matter of
time before FASA sees the Shadowrun universe as they saw the card game - a
quick one-shot gimmick that needs no more attention except for the
occasional release of such rehashes?

<Snipped...>


>The year thing has been a staple of SR since it began -- it was meant to
>always stay 60-odd years in the future. Much better than, say, Cyberpunk
>2020, which will soon be obsolete (if just because we're nowhere near in
>spitting distance of the tech described within. Of course, FASA's food
>riots of 1999 are also obviously fake....)

I know about the desire to stay a good pace ahead of reality. Perhaps it
is just the lack of events that occur during a normal Shadowrun year before
everything seems to happen all at once that seems unrealistic.

<Snipped...>


>>It is the same arguement as to why one should not 'pirate' their cards.
>>Just because they created a game and then let it float into a void does not
>>automatically give them the right to take our ideas and
>>potentially make a profit from it. That is saying _I_ could take the
>>Amerindian Expansion, print the cards up, and sell them outright, claiming
>>all credit and rights without regard to the original contributors.

>No, there's a *slight* difference. The very least of which is that on the
>page I have the Amerindian cards listed on, the copyright is given to FASA.
>Why? Because without them, I wouldn't have the "engine" to write the cards.

> A simple description -- "Ham The Sam / Street Samurai / 6Y" -- is
>automatically borrowing off of their work.

That seems to be a dangerous path - giving the copyright to FASA without
compensation. What could stop them from using such a right and restricting
all of us to NOT use the cards now until they release them? Just because
we borrowed their engine does not grant them automatic rights to our
creations. Using the Diablo example above, Blizzard can not claim rights
to the mods other people have created ~just~ because it uses their Diablo
execution file. Blizzard, like FASA, can attempt restrict us from using
it, but with us purchasing the original cards, we can privately alter them
as we see fit. Once we attempt to sell those alterations will the fine
lines be drawn. Without going into another thread, wasn't this was WotC
was pushing for with their exclusive clause they had a while back - that
all card games of this variety originated in part from their original idea?
Except the other companies were making money from it...


>_You_ (or me, or Brak, or Loki, or Eugene) shouldn't take the cards, print
>'em up and sell 'em off because the copyright is really FASA's. Yes, it
>sucks that they're such evil people and don't deserve a dote or compassion
>-- but that's life.

My point is if we sell our card ideas using their engine, yes we are
infringing upon their copyright. But they have no claim upon our creation
of said cards.

<Snipped...>


>I'm *not* trying to use the threat of a lawsuit as a stick. Just that I'd
>rather have on my resume that I created an expansion set than that I pirated
>one.

Ahh, but would be so bold to actually claim to do such a deed? *grin* It
would be very detrimental to list ~all~ the illegal things I have done
without quickly feeling the heat from all around..... So I mute up.

>- Matt

>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<

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