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From:	">>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<<" <axlrose@**********.COM>
Subject:	Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:53:49 -0400

Message no. 1 As some of you people might know, it seems Richard Garfield patented the
term and usage of "collectable card game". From what I have gathered, any
card game that has the aspects of card selection, collectable aspect, and
turn based play falls under this term. According to the following web page :

http://www.wizards.com/Corporate_Info/News_Releases/WotC/Patent_Info.html

it seems that present companies that use such a set-up will have to pay
royalties to WotC and/or have Wizards have underlining control. Using our
beloved Shadowrun as an example, FASA would have the rights to the subject,
but WotC would have all other aspects to the game and game play. Similar
to when WotC bought out the company doing Legends of the Five Rings - they
could not alter the aspect of the subject matter, but had control in other
ways.

I will admit I do not have all the facts present. My opinion for what it
is worth - I see how WotC has flooded the market with expansion upon
expansion with apparent disregard for past cards. When Magic first
appeared, it was a thinking game within means of most people. Yet now with
the money machine churning away, making past cards null and void for play
while wanting to remain competitive costs hundreds of dollars it seems, the
game almost has become something for the elitist few. I would not like to
see Shadowrun become such a pawn. I would not want to have buy expansion
upon expansion with a whole new 'world' heaped upon me every few months
just to remain competitive. For me, I collect Shadowrun because I like the
universe of it. Whoa if I'll find anybody near me soon to play against.
But I do not want to be driven out of that universe just because FASA has
to bend to the whims of one company trying to monopolize the market by
dictating how collectable card games will be. Especially if the fun factor
is placed a far second to the almighty dollar.

Thank you for my rant,
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<

From:	Andrew Herington <andrewhe@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:55:13 PDT

Message no. 2 >But I do not want to be driven out of that
>universe just because FASA has to bend to the >whims of one company
trying to monopolize
>the market by dictating how collectable card
>games will be. Especially if the fun factor
>is placed a far second to the almighty dollar.

Well you may not have much choice since WOTC has been looking at buying
FASA for a while now. It should only be a matter of time before they do.
Now the million dollar question is will they leave FASA an independent
entity (ala Five Rings) or will the merge companies and retain the name
only as they did with TSR?

Andrew

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From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:19:22 +1000

Message no. 3 > Well you may not have much choice since WOTC has been looking at buying
> FASA for a while now. It should only be a matter of time before they do.
> Now the million dollar question is will they leave FASA an independent
> entity (ala Five Rings) or will the merge companies and retain the name
> only as they did with TSR?

Here we go again.

Direct from the mouth of Lou Prosperi, Earthdawn Line Thingummy and
all-around-good-guy, yes, FASA have been having talks with WOTC -
apparently just about every gaming company has been having talks with
WOTC. No, WOTC are *not* buying FASA. FASA is a *private* company (I
know; my folks gave me an investment thingy for my 21st birthday and I
wanted FASA shares :) and unless the owners of FASA *want* to sell, WOTC
doesn't have a prayer. And apparently, the owners don't want to sell.

Please, let's leave the nasty rumormongering aside and talk about the
game.

(I *am* still worried about the effect of Richard Garfield's patent,
though. Wonder how challengeable it would be?)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"No more drugs for that man!" - Dietrich, Face/Off
-------------------------------------------------------------
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http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
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From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:36:37 EST

Message no. 4 > Well you may not have much choice since WOTC has been looking at
> buying FASA for a while now. It should only be a matter of time
> before they do. Now the million dollar question is will they leave
> FASA an independent entity (ala Five Rings) or will the merge
> companies and retain the name only as they did with TSR?

Dream on. FASA is owned by three persons who are wonderfully happy
eith the company as it is, and have absolutely no desire to cease to
get the profits, or even to simply not have the responsibility.
They're enjoying FASA's success on both a financial and personal
level.

This rumor has circulated about just about EVERY gaming company since
WOTC started buying things up. Forget it. WOTC is done buying for a
while, and FASA would be far down on the list as the owners aren't
interested.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:35:45 -0700

Message no. 5 ---Andrew Herington wrote:
>
> Well you may not have much choice since WOTC has been looking at
buying
> FASA for a while now. It should only be a matter of time before they
do.
> Now the million dollar question is will they leave FASA an
independent
> entity (ala Five Rings) or will the merge companies and retain the
name
> only as they did with TSR?

OK, let's nip the rumormill in the bud before in turns into some wild
threads.

From Mike Mulvihill and Lou Prosperi at Gen Con:

Yes, FASA has had a few talks with WOTC, as has plenty of other gaming
companies. However, FASA is not interested in offers or selling.
They're also not publicly owned, so hostile take over bids aren't an
option.

On another note, I'm going to see what info Jim or Skuzzy can give on
the affect of Garfield's patent.

-== Loki ==-
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
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From:	Nemein <nemein@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:19:18 -0700

Message no. 6 ---Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> wrote:
>
[snip]

>
> (I *am* still worried about the effect of Richard Garfield's patent,
> though. Wonder how challengeable it would be?)
>
> Lady Jestyr

I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine it wouldn't be very challengeable
directly. It seems that Richard started the process when Magic first
came out and it was finally awarded earlier this year so I imagine he
has that pretty "locked down".

For those that want to read the actual patent check out:
http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_numberV62332, the US
patent office web site is out there as well
(http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html use #5662332).

I read through it once and I'm glad the game is more fun in reality
than it reads there :-) Given what is there though I think you might
(MIGHT) be able to make a statement that SR:TCG doesn't really fit
into the scheme that is mentioned there:

- If nothing nothing else the abstract states: "The goal of the game
is to reduce the life points of other players to a level below one."
Doesn't really apply to SR now does it ;-)

- The first 3 claims of the patent are generic enough for any card
game to fit into. However, the last 3 claims seem to be more geared
toward the way magic works (tapping/untapping cards)

In fact I wonder if they are violating their own patent with the
Stasis card :-) Claim 6 reads:
"6. The method of claim 3 (describes how to play the game),
wherein said step of executing a turn comprises the initial step of
rotating the player's cards previously designated in a prior turn from
the second orientation (tapped, explained in claim 4) to the original
orientation. (untapping, explained in claim 5)"

I'll state again I'm not a lawyer, I'm just trying to apply common
sense (oh, damn, well considering we are talking about patent law here
I see I'm doomed from the beginning ;-) )

As usual, just my $0.02, we shall see what actually becomes of it.
==
-----------------------------------------------------------
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aka Nemein Best when both are used freely :-)

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From:	Gary Crane <jack9@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:24:49 -0700

Message no. 7 Since a guy patented the idea of storing/replaying video images of games he
has not recieved a dime yet from the NFL, Sega, etc. and Washington is
thought to soon pass an anti-'junk patent' law. I think Patenting
collectible card games would fall under this category since...wait! Yes!
I'll patent collectable sports cards! I'll be rich!

Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, '227, any and all
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From:	David Taylor <Harvester@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:32:38 +0100

Message no. 8 >But I do not want to be driven out of that universe just because FASA =
has
>to bend to the whims of one company trying to monopolize the market by
>dictating how collectable card games will be. Especially if the fun fac=
tor
>is placed a far second to the almighty dollar.

Don't want to be alarmist, but these worried tones, seemed to be echoed
on Target's mailing list for doomtrooper.

David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------
I understand war, I understand rules, and regulations, but I don't
understand sorry !! - Charles Manson
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------
Harvester@**********.com

From:	David Taylor <Harvester@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:37:42 +0100

Message no. 9 >Well you may not have much choice since WOTC has been looking at buying
>FASA for a while now. It should only be a matter of time before they do.
>Now the million dollar question is will they leave FASA an independent
>entity (ala Five Rings) or will the merge companies and retain the name
>only as they did with TSR?

I for all our sakes this doesn't happen, as a SLA Industries player, I =
watched
what WotC could do to truly butcher a game that I enjoyed. So as a
now rather nervous follower of all FASA's work I pray that FASA can
keep going alone, or keep their independent status.

David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------
I understand war, I understand rules, and regulations, but I don't
understand sorry !! - Charles Manson
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------
Harvester@**********.com

From:	Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:52:05 -0400

Message no. 10 On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Andrew Herington wrote:

> >But I do not want to be driven out of that
> >universe just because FASA has to bend to the >whims of one company
> trying to monopolize
> >the market by dictating how collectable card
> >games will be. Especially if the fun factor
> >is placed a far second to the almighty dollar.
>
> Well you may not have much choice since WOTC has been looking at buying
> FASA for a while now. It should only be a matter of time before they do.
> Now the million dollar question is will they leave FASA an independent
> entity (ala Five Rings) or will the merge companies and retain the name
> only as they did with TSR?
>
> Andrew

Where's this come from?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:03:53 -0600

Message no. 11 At 21:52 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Where's this come from?

A bunch of alarmists <g>
Read the later posts, it has some quotes from several highish up FASA
people about it, and it's been thoroughly debunked.. IOW, FASA ain't going
anywhere.

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/jurybench

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:22:43 -0700

Message no. 12 David Taylor wrote:

>Well you may not have much choice since WOTC has been looking at buying
> >FASA for a while now. It should only be a matter of time before they do. Now the
million dollar question is will they leave FASA an independent entity (ala Five Rings) or
will the merge companies and retain the name only as they did with TSR?

> I for all our sakes this doesn't happen, as a SLA Industries player, I watched what
WotC could do to truly butcher a game that I enjoyed. So as a now rather nervous follower
of all FASA's work I pray that FASA can
keep going alone, or keep their independent status.

As mentioned before, FASA is strong and independently owned. (And
probably strongly independent, too.) Three strong game lines, with a
decent interactive division, novels, and so forth. Not much to worry
about.

It's funny to hear about people wondering if WotC will gut and pillage
(you know what I meant to say instead of "gut") TSR, since I can
remember TSR putting a real heavy hand on some smaller gaming companies
in the early eighties. DragonQuest, anyone?

-Mb

From:	"Logan Graves <Fenris>" <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:01:28 -0400

Message no. 13 In our last episode, Matb wrote:
>
> It's funny to hear about people wondering if WotC will gut and pillage
> (you know what I meant to say instead of "gut") TSR, since I can
> remember TSR putting a real heavy hand on some smaller gaming companies
> in the early eighties. DragonQuest, anyone?

Can you say S.P.I. ? I knew you could.

--Fenris (who still has a bookcase full of bookcase-style wargames ;-)

_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) "And now, students, I will demonstrate my new
breakthrough in anaesthesia. Nurse, hand me my garrote."
(>) --Professor Oscar Schneiderbunk, M.D.

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:07:13 -0700

Message no. 14 >>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<< wrote:

> As some of you people might know, it seems Richard Garfield patented the
> term and usage of "collectable card game". From what I have gathered, any
> card game that has the aspects of card selection, collectable aspect, and
> turn based play falls under this term. According to the following web page :

> http://www.wizards.com/Corporate_Info/News_Releases/WotC/Patent_Info.html

> it seems that present companies that use such a set-up will have to pay
> royalties to WotC and/or have Wizards have underlining control. Using our
> beloved Shadowrun as an example, FASA would have the rights to the subject,
> but WotC would have all other aspects to the game and game play. Similar
> to when WotC bought out the company doing Legends of the Five Rings - they
> could not alter the aspect of the subject matter, but had control in other
> ways.

Actually, having looked at the patent with some lawyerly friends, you'd
be hard-pressed to get sued by Garfield's patent. Several of the terms
are notoriously ambiguous ('collectible' being the biggest: I know
people who collect Tarot, as well as regular (52-card) playing cards)
and many of the terms are very specific to Magic.

Note that copying one or two of the features is fine and dandy, as it's
impossible to escape in the mechanical world (which is the basis of all
patent design). Can't really patent a nail, can't patent 'tapping' (or
as the patent says, rotating 90-degrees about the center). The patent
holds mostly in the sum of all these elements.

What the net effect may be is that other gaming companies are forced to
patent their games as well, which is a fairly small fee (less than $100,
last I checked). Or go international since, iirc, the US doesn't follow
international patenting agreements. (Guess Carte Mundi is good for
something else, too.

I can't really think of any game that's been so blatant a rip-off of
Magic that it would be affected by this lawsuit. And I've played a
number.

-Mb

From:	Gary Crane <jack9@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:31:50 -0700

Message no. 15 At 12:07 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<< wrote:
>
>> As some of you people might know, it seems Richard Garfield patented the
>> term and usage of "collectable card game". From what I have gathered,
any
>> card game that has the aspects of card selection, collectable aspect, and
>> turn based play falls under this term. According to the following web
page :
>
>> http://www.wizards.com/Corporate_Info/News_Releases/WotC/Patent_Info.html
>
>> it seems that present companies that use such a set-up will have to pay
>> royalties to WotC and/or have Wizards have underlining control. Using our
>> beloved Shadowrun as an example, FASA would have the rights to the subject,
>> but WotC would have all other aspects to the game and game play. Similar
>> to when WotC bought out the company doing Legends of the Five Rings - they
>> could not alter the aspect of the subject matter, but had control in other
>> ways.
>
>Actually, having looked at the patent with some lawyerly friends, you'd
>be hard-pressed to get sued by Garfield's patent. Several of the terms
>are notoriously ambiguous ('collectible' being the biggest: I know
>people who collect Tarot, as well as regular (52-card) playing cards)
>and many of the terms are very specific to Magic.
>
>Note that copying one or two of the features is fine and dandy, as it's
>impossible to escape in the mechanical world (which is the basis of all
>patent design). Can't really patent a nail, can't patent 'tapping' (or
>as the patent says, rotating 90-degrees about the center). The patent
>holds mostly in the sum of all these elements.
>
>What the net effect may be is that other gaming companies are forced to
>patent their games as well, which is a fairly small fee (less than $100,
>last I checked). Or go international since, iirc, the US doesn't follow
>international patenting agreements. (Guess Carte Mundi is good for
>something else, too.
>
>I can't really think of any game that's been so blatant a rip-off of
>Magic that it would be affected by this lawsuit. And I've played a
>number.
>
>
>-Mb

Howabout if FASA just coallates cards without official rulebooks, and says
they're just plain collectable cards, but if people wish to play it as a
game then.....
<sarcasm off>

Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, '227, any and all
unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download
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From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Most disturbing news...
Date:	Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:26:43 -0700

Message no. 16 > Howabout if FASA just coallates cards without official rulebooks, and says
> they're just plain collectable cards, but if people wish to play it as a
> game then.....
> <sarcasm off>

Actually, there are a number of games where this principle holds up.

For example, I enjoy playing Cosmic Encounter (a card and board game).
There are a few expansion sets out, and, in building the "playing deck",
I like to put in Moons and leave out Comets. In a word, I'm customizing
it.

Of course, it differs from MtG greatly; there's one communal pile of
cards, instead of dueling decks, but it helps prove that the
"customizable library" is/was a pre-existing work, not an innovation of
Garfield's. I forget the original Cosmic release (or, more
pertinnently, its first expansion), but it was before MtG.

-Mb

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