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From:	">>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<<" <axlrose@**********.COM>
Subject:	New Thread - What is broken/what needs revising?
Date:	Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:13:17 -0500

Message no. 1 With the potential of new net expansions on the horizons, if you were able
to change something about the game, what would it be? I am not looking for
such things as 'make <fill-in a name here> stronger', but more along the
lines of game mechanics. What have you seen in other card games that you
would like to see in this game? Or what aspect of the game do you feel
needs expanding? For me, I would like to (have) see(n) two attack values
for runners : one based on hand-to-hand weapons and the other based on
weaponry. How different decks would appear if Stomper could only
specialize in pistols while someone like Lord Torgo, being a ganger,
specialized in knives.

I have some others, but I'll wait and see what others have to say first.
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<

From:	Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Thread - What is broken/what needs revising?
Date:	Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:19:47 PST

Message no. 2 Hoi,

>With the potential of new net expansions on the horizons, if you >were
able to change something about the game, what would it be? I >am not
looking for such things as 'make <fill-in a name here> >stronger', but
more along the lines of game mechanics. What have >you seen in other
card games that you would like to see in this >game? Or what aspect of
the game do you feel needs expanding? For >me, I would like to (have)
see(n) two attack values for runners : >one based on hand-to-hand
weapons and the other based on weaponry. >How different decks would
appear if Stomper could only specialize in >pistols while someone like
Lord Torgo, being a ganger, specialized >in knives.
>
>I have some others, but I'll wait and see what others have to say
>first.
>>>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<

Some of the stuff that I would really like to see changed go as follows.

- Limit the use of Media Chick. Right now it has been stated that she
was originally going to be limited to 3¥ when 2 run comes around. I can
live with that.
- Rework Torgo's special ability. Its entirly too tough as it is right
now. I like the idea of 1AP damage per nuyen spent, spread out any way
you choose.
- Alternitive methods of winning other than rep gathering. It just
doesn't make sence for the Lone Star to go around gathering rep. I like
the AEX idea of the Kivas for winning, but I think some other methods
should be available... it allows for completely new stradiges.
- Indirect Fire. Needs lots of work to make it a functioning part of
the game. I'm not sure how to go about doing this, but more weapons
with its trait would be nice.
- Clarification on what it sleazing vs. trashing a challenge on gear
cards and special abilities. It has been proposed that in second run
that all text on gear and special abilities will read trash challenge
and not sleaze. This will clear up lots of confusion and I think that
they should go with it.
- Silenced damage. This needs alot of work. As it is right now the
only way you can do this is with putting silencers on guns. Thats it.
The way to fix this is to give runners the ability of silenced melee
damage or allow more than just 4 silencers in a deck. There may be
other methods and they will be happily entertained.
- Melee damge and ranged damage. I don't like the fact that a gun adds
to the runners current attack value. That attack value is ROUGHLY based
on the muscle of the runner... something that firing a gun has nothing
to do with. I think that a solution would be to double the attack value
of all guns and just say that if you are using a gun that is the value
that you would use. some examples would be.

Ares Preditor - 6
Defiance Shotgun - 8
Vindacatior minigun - 8 + 6 burst
HK227 - 6 + 4 burst
Panther assault - 12 + 18 trashed

These sort of values would replace the users attack value, after all it
is the gun doing the work. I would leave melee weapons the same...
after all they do use the users muscle for their effectiveness. I can
see how stomper would do more damage with a katana than Foxy Roxy with a
katana... but if they both have Ares Preditors and are shooting across
the room, the damage should be the same.

- fame. I really like fame, I think it is a cool thing... I just think
it sucks that all of the runners have weak bodyies, and are easy to kill
off... where are the Troll thrash rock bands and the like. Also I would
like to see that if you refresh your hand you still get the bonus fame
nuyen added to your cred stick. What happens here... your rockers take
the night off because you refresh your hand... I don't think so. On the
"I'm being real picky here and don't give a damn" wave length is it fair
that 1 guy with no rockers only has to sacrafice 4¥ to refresh his hand
while the guy who has spent 9¥ on three thrashes sacrafices 7¥ to
refresh his hand... whats fair about that... Rockers actually cost you
more money... from a certain point of view.

Anyway... these are just a few things that bug me about the game... some
are pointless and nit-picky... but I think others have real merrit.

*** Knife Sharpens on Stone... Man Sharpens on Man ***
*** - Tao ***

Jayden Stormwalker
Donald Arganbright

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Thread - What is broken/what needs revising?
Date:	Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:16:16 -0800

Message no. 3 Donald Arganbright wrote:

> Some of the stuff that I would really like to see changed go as follows=
.

> - Limit the use of Media Chick.
> - Rework Torgo's special ability.

What really should be done (and may just happen after the next
net.expansion) is that a list version of errata or revisions to cards be
compiled and posted on someone's website. I'm of the mind that the name
'Second Run' should be reserved for FASA's (not-released) second core
set; I'll volunteer calling the set "Shadowrun 2060" and take things
from there.

> - Alternitive methods of winning other than rep gathering. It just
> doesn't make sence for the Lone Star to go around gathering rep. I lik=
e
> the AEX idea of the Kivas for winning, but I think some other methods
> should be available... it allows for completely new stradiges.

The upcoming (?) Street Life net.expansion contains an alternate win
that will probably offend most players: it's cheap. I could see an
alternate win for Mafia, Yakuza, and Lone Star decks; probably specials
running 4-6Y in cost, and requiring soem absurd condition to be met to
win the game.

LAW ON THE STREETS / Special / 5¥
Play only when all your Runners are Lone Star Runners, and when no other
player has Runners in play. Roll D6 (+1 for each Runner you arrested
this turn). On a 6+, you win the game. Frag Law on the Streets after
playing.
[A street-mall in downtown Seattle; the streets are barren except for
uniformed policemen and patrol cars.]
"There is nothing to see here. Move along."

Okay, that might actually create a first turn win (although, as the
cheapest 'Star is Sisko, at 4Y, you need to somehow gain 1Y on your
first turn without playing another Runner and using Moonlighting; that's
actually possible using AEX cards). But with a heavy-arrest deck, or
lots of Loaded Dice, it *is* possible to pull off an early win.

> - Indirect Fire. Needs lots of work to make it a functioning part of
> the game. I'm not sure how to go about doing this, but more weapons
> with its trait would be nice.

I dunno. This just seems like an alternate form of the bully deck;
Runners with Indirect Fire don't take any damage, so the damage they
deal remains constant; all you need is one or two Runners with, say, a 6
Body each, and then a bunch of munchkins with Ranger Arms or
what-have-you, and the run's yours.

Same goes for Silenced damage: I don't think, so much, that there need
to be more cards with the trait (although maybe *one* other card each
might help), but, rather, than the 'core' idea behind each (help on run
dfrom safehouse / tickle Challenge without mucking up next Challenge)
could use some interesting twists.

> - Melee damge and ranged damage. I don't like the fact that a gun adds=

> to the runners current attack value. That attack value is ROUGHLY base=
d
> on the muscle of the runner.

This really isn't true.

In Shadowrun (the role-playing game), each character has what's termed a
'Combat Pool': basically, how proficient a character is in combat, and
it deals both with defense and attack, but, pretty much, a character
with a high Combat Pool is more dangerous than one with a lower one.

So, Stomper isn't a 6/7 because he has big bones; he's got an Attack of
6 because he's a bad-ass who grew up brawling on the streets. He
_should_ be better with Stilettos than, say, a ex-military merc -- and
he *is*, and the cards show that. (I suppose it could also be argued
that, just as guns "shoot bullets" and should do damage regardless of
the person holding it, hand weapons just "push blades in": the
combat/threat rating shows how _adept_ a character is at putting the
bullet, knifetip, or back of his hand into a particular spot, however,
and that is why Ranged Weapons add to the Threat Rating: to show that a
Ganger is deadlier with weapons than a Legendary Flirt who doesn't even
_believe_ in guns, yet alone have any ability with them.)

At least that's my understanding of it. Ranged Weapons really need to
be made better in the game, because (right now) every one uses
Melee-Katana-Hand Razors, which would _rarely_ show up on a real
shadowrun (except maybe for style points).

> - fame. I really like fame, I think it is a cool thing... I just think=

> it sucks that all of the runners have weak bodyies, and are easy to kil=
l
> off...

That's game balance for ya.

- Matt

From:	Kevin P Dargis <NEORAZORBOY@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New Thread - What is broken/what needs revising?
Date:	Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:07:59 -0800

Message no. 4 >With the potential of new net expansions on the horizons, if you were able
>to change something about the game, what would it be? I am not looking for
>such things as 'make <fill-in a name here> stronger', but more along the
>lines of game mechanics. What have you seen in other card games that you
>would like to see in this game? Or what aspect of the game do you feel
>needs expanding? For me, I would like to (have) see(n) two attack values
>for runners : one based on hand-to-hand weapons and the other based on
>weaponry. How different decks would appear if Stomper could only
>specialize in pistols while someone like Lord Torgo, being a ganger,
>specialized in knives.
>
>I have some others, but I'll wait and see what others have to say first.
>>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<

Me and my chums have been working on alternative ways to play faster while
keeping the feel of the game genuine and not helping or hindering any decks.
This is the point we are currently at..........

Credstick Phase
Each player starts the game with 6¥ and 7 cards in hand. Determine which
player plays first as usual and that person draws their 8th card. This ¥ can
only be spent to deploy Runners (& their upkeep), Gear, Locations (&
visiting them) & Contacts (& using them). If you do not spend the 6¥ you
start off with, the remaining ¥ is carried over until the beginning of your
next turn. You now have two options, draw your hand back up to 7 (+1 in Draw
Phase) and keep what cred (¥) you had remaining OR refresh your cred to 6¥,
thereby losing what you had left over. You no longer cumulate cred. If you
do not spend it all from the beginning of your previous turn, it is lost and
refreshed back to 6. Current Runners receiving Fame alter this number as
usual. Cred given from any other source (Moonlighting/Bonus from Objectives)
is kept seperate, for use at any time you wish. This will make the "Mafia
Goons" & "Yakuza Street Thugs" Challenges useless, but an alternative
to
that is that those cards target Cred given from outside sources
(Moonlighting, etc.) and if they don't have it they would face the
consequences.

Karma Pool
This is also non-cumulative and kept track of seperate from your cred. As
with your Credstick, you also receive 6 to start the game with and all the
same rules stated above with cred apply to karma. Karma is spent on all the
other aspects in the game. Stingers, Specials (& their upkeep), pumping
challenges & Runners, Runner's Bonus abilities & burst-fire.

Swapping Cred & Karma
At any time outside of combat, you may take 2 points of cred away to give
you 1 in your Karma Pool, and vice-versa. You may use this 2 for 1 exchange
multiple times either way, until you cannot exchange any further.

Karma Pool Alterations
Karma can be adjusted permanently in one fashion: facing Challenges! An
owner adds 1 to their Karma Pool for each Challenge their Runners confront
and defeat in any manner. An owner also subtracts 1 point permanently for
each Challenge their Runners face in which they fail to remove from an
Objective.

Faster Reputation
No one on the streets or in the biz respects Runners who just sit in the
safehouse. True, dead men tell no tales, but the good folk on the streets
don't brag about Runners who sit around the safehouse all the time. They're
more than likely going to tell you about the group of mages that was
confronted by a fraggin' hellhound and were able to get by it without a
fight or the gun-totting mercenaries that brought down a dragon and lived
on. However, among the shadows, quiet is better. Confrontation brings
attention, or puts you in the light, and the true shadow dwellars keep the
light off of themselves as much as possible. So to reflect this reality of
the Shadowrun world and translate it to this game, we have decided to add
the following small adjustments to speed up the game a bit as well. Format:
+2 Reputation for each Challenge you Sleaze
+1 Reputation for each one you defeat in combat.
-1 Reputation each time your Runners face a Challenge and it remains.

We have gamed through many methods seeking a faster alternative and are
currently happy with this one. Here, as an owner, you gain power by going on
shadowruns and facing the world. Stress on less hesitation, more go-go-go.
It works pretty good, just a bit more complicated. Got suggestions or
situations we have failed to come by yet?

<<<alternative taken from my posting at
http://pages.prodigy.net/neorazorboy/cczaltgm.htm almost word for word.
Have a good one, chums! Hoi, hoi, hoi....Merry Generation-X-mas! Laterz,
Raz>>>

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