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Message no. 1
From: James Poppe <azweepay@********.COM>
Subject: Not really a high quality question
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:24:25 -0600
I have a question about Ravage, the human prime runner...

If she has Wired Reflexes, do you get to try and have her deal her Attack
Value thrice?

ie... Normal, via the Wired, and via her Special Ability.

Just curious....
Message no. 2
From: Phil Jaros <chakan@****.PYROTECHNICS.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:45:36 -0600
>If she has Wired Reflexes, do you get to try and have her deal her Attack
>Value thrice?

I don't see why not.... as her special ability does not count as
cyberware...



--
Phil Jaros 888888888
chakan@************.com O=O=O=O=O
___________aaaaaaaaaaaaa___________
___...aaaad8888888888888888p"""""q8888888888888888baaaa...___
``"""""q8888888888888|
|8888888888888p"""""''
``"""""< `=-~-='
>"""""''
Chakan `| ^ |'
The Forever Man / | =-= | \
/ `__.__' \
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:55:08 -0500
At 10:24 PM 3/11/98 -0600, James Poppe wrote these timeless words:
>I have a question about Ravage, the human prime runner...
>
>If she has Wired Reflexes, do you get to try and have her deal her Attack
>Value thrice?
>
> ie... Normal, via the Wired, and via her Special Ability.
>
>Just curious....
>
That's a real good question...

I'd say that sure, she does... Guess that's Wired Reflexes 2, eh? :]

Bull
--
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Message no. 4
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:47:36 -0800
James Poppe wrote:

> I have a question about Ravage, the human prime runner...

> If she has Wired Reflexes, do you get to try and have her deal her Attack
> Value thrice?

Nope. Both cards read, "...deal damage a second time." There's only
one second time (the next time would be the third time, and so on.)
Officially, the cards aren't 'stackable' -- this is in the FASA FAQ.


-Matt

------------------------------------
I will work harder. -- Boxer: Animal Hero, First-Class

GridSec: SRCard
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 5
From: Doug <d.clarke@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:38:44 -0800
Matt wrote:
>James Poppe wrote:
>
>> I have a question about Ravage, the human prime runner...
>
>> If she has Wired Reflexes, do you get to try and have her deal her Attack
>> Value thrice?
>
>Nope. Both cards read, "...deal damage a second time." There's only
>one second time (the next time would be the third time, and so on.)
>Officially, the cards aren't 'stackable' -- this is in the FASA FAQ.
>
I agree that you can't get a third attack. However it could make sense
that
if she failed her special ability roll, then she could try her Wired
Reflexes
roll to get a second attack.

so they would not be 'stackable' but could be 'complementary'

Doug
Message no. 6
From: Joao Maia <joao.maia@*****.PT>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:43:03 +0000
> I agree that you can't get a third attack. However it could make sense
> that
> if she failed her special ability roll, then she could try her Wired
> Reflexes
> roll to get a second attack.
>
> so they would not be 'stackable' but could be 'complementary'

Hi there,

I'm new to this list but I am also a great fan of SRTCG as well as the
RolePlying game so I thought I'd send my oppinion on this.

You should not be allowed to play Wired Reflexes on Ravage because her special
ability tells us that she is a runner who already has the Wired Reflexes
cyberware. So there's no point in her having two implants that do the same
thing. In the Roleplay you can't have Wired Reflexes twice, I believe...

Cheers from Portugal,

Joao Maia
Message no. 7
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:25:10 -0800
---Joao Maia <joao.maia@*****.PT> wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
> I'm new to this list but I am also a great fan of SRTCG as well as the
> RolePlying game so I thought I'd send my oppinion on this.
>
> You should not be allowed to play Wired Reflexes on Ravage because
her special
> ability tells us that she is a runner who already has the Wired
Reflexes
> cyberware. So there's no point in her having two implants that do
the same
> thing.

Nothing on her card explicitly says she has Wired Reflexes, it's just
that her special ability is of the same wording as the Wired Reflexes
gear card.

In card game mechanics, I don't think you could use this assumption as
the means for disallowing the combo.

> In the Roleplay you can't have Wired Reflexes twice, I believe...

But in the RPG you CAN have Wired Reflexes of varying levels (1, 2, 3)
and each has increased bonuses over the previous.

-== Loki ==-
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 2/26/98
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Message no. 8
From: Joao Maia <joao.maia@*****.PT>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:06:25 +0000
> > You should not be allowed to play Wired Reflexes on Ravage because
> her special
> > ability tells us that she is a runner who already has the Wired
> Reflexes
> > cyberware. So there's no point in her having two implants that do
> the same
> > thing.
>
> Nothing on her card explicitly says she has Wired Reflexes, it's just
> that her special ability is of the same wording as the Wired Reflexes
> gear card.

Ok, but I believe that when the people at Fasa created the card, they had in
mind that Ravage was a runner with Wired Reflexes.

> In card game mechanics, I don't think you could use this assumption as
> the means for disallowing the combo.

I believe that, although this is a card game, we have to think of the rules
as if we were thinking of roleplaying game situations (after all, the card
game is based upon the roleplay). For example, there's nothing on the
Shadowland card that says that only deckers can visit it (it states that
hermit deckers can visit it but it doesn't forbid other runners to visit
it). Now, in the terms of roleplaying situations, it's quite obvious that
Shadowland is a Matrix location, but since there is no rule against it in
the card game, we can have our mages and shamans visit Shadowland and gain
the information tokens...

> > In the Roleplay you can't have Wired Reflexes twice, I believe...
>
> But in the RPG you CAN have Wired Reflexes of varying levels (1, 2, 3)
> and each has increased bonuses over the previous.

You've got a point there but can you upgrade to Wired 2 after you have
started with Wired 1 ?
I'm not trying to contradict you here. I'm just not sure if it can be done
according to the rules of the RPG (after all I haven't played it in 3 years
:( ). If it can be done then I belive you're absolutely right and Ravage
can have Wired Reflexes. If it cannot be done then I'll stick to my
opinion...

BTW, I loved the pics of the Underworld cards on your page. I just have to
get "Somethings never change" to screw up the game of one or two of my
friends :)

Cheers from Portugal,

Joao Maia
Message no. 9
From: "Ken Dirk (DrugDoc)" <dirkkenn@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:15:20 -0800
Loki wrote:
>
> ---Joao Maia <joao.maia@*****.PT> wrote:
> >
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I'm new to this list but I am also a great fan of SRTCG as well as the
> > RolePlying game so I thought I'd send my oppinion on this.
> >
> > You should not be allowed to play Wired Reflexes on Ravage because
> her special
> > ability tells us that she is a runner who already has the Wired
> Reflexes
> > cyberware. So there's no point in her having two implants that do
> the same
> > thing.
>
> Nothing on her card explicitly says she has Wired Reflexes, it's just
> that her special ability is of the same wording as the Wired Reflexes
> gear card.
>
> In card game mechanics, I don't think you could use this assumption as
> the means for disallowing the combo.
>
> > In the Roleplay you can't have Wired Reflexes twice, I believe...
>
> But in the RPG you CAN have Wired Reflexes of varying levels (1, 2, 3)
> and each has increased bonuses over the previous.
>
> -== Loki ==-

Agreed. Some consideration needs to take place--this is the card game,
NOT the rpg. The DLOH have already stated that, for example, you CAN
stack skillsofts. This is not something that can be done in the rpg.

Food for thought

Ken Dirk (DrugDoc)
Message no. 10
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:40:36 -0800
---Joao Maia <joao.maia@*****.PT> wrote:
>
> > > You should not be allowed to play Wired Reflexes on Ravage because
> > her special
> > > ability tells us that she is a runner who already has the Wired
> > Reflexes
> > > cyberware. So there's no point in her having two implants that do
> > the same
> > > thing.
> >
> > Nothing on her card explicitly says she has Wired Reflexes, it's
just
> > that her special ability is of the same wording as the Wired
Reflexes
> > gear card.
>
> Ok, but I believe that when the people at Fasa created the card,
they had in
> mind that Ravage was a runner with Wired Reflexes.

It's just like Uncle Joe and the cyborgs. It's assumed they have
cyberware to explain their special abilitity's and stats, but in game
mechanics they still have an Essence of 6 and no shown gear cards to
represent this included 'ware.

You're thinking too hard over cards like Ravage.

> > In card game mechanics, I don't think you could use this
assumption as
> > the means for disallowing the combo.
>
> I believe that, although this is a card game, we have to think of
the rules
> as if we were thinking of roleplaying game situations (after all,
the card
> game is based upon the roleplay).

Actually, Jim and Skuzzy have said the exact opposite. In a couple of
messages we've gotten from them, Jim has pointed out that we sometimes
have to take the approach of a new SRTCG player who's never heard of
the RPG. Some things may not make sense fictionally to a an exerienced
SRRPG player, but they work as they should for the mechanics of the
SRTCG.

Think about it... in the SRTCG mages are the only ones who can cast
spells, and Shamans are able to summon elementals. Does this make
sense to your RPG way of thinking?

Another example is Street Scum, they steal a random gear card. If you
look in our newly compiled SRTCG Q&A you'll see that Jim confirmed
they are able to steal spells, spirits and cyberware (yet your Runner
still lives). This would be impossible for a gang of street thugs in
the RPG but for game mechanics it works here.

There's a line where you finally have to stop comparing the RPG and
TCG when trying to make sense of things.

> For example, there's nothing on the
> Shadowland card that says that only deckers can visit it (it states
that
> hermit deckers can visit it but it doesn't forbid other runners to
visit
> it). Now, in the terms of roleplaying situations, it's quite obvious
that
> Shadowland is a Matrix location, but since there is no rule against
it in
> the card game, we can have our mages and shamans visit Shadowland
and gain
> the information tokens...

Exactly. In the SR novels and sourcebooks you have characters like
Dirk Montgomery, Argent, Harlequin and even Dunklezahn visiting
Shadowlands. None of these I'd consider as a Decker. Shadowland, while
frequented primarily by deckers, is still a Runner resource for those
that can find it.

FASA's FAQ and our SRCTG Q&A both point out that the Location was
designed for any Runner type.

> > > In the Roleplay you can't have Wired Reflexes twice, I believe...
> >
> > But in the RPG you CAN have Wired Reflexes of varying levels (1,
2, 3)
> > and each has increased bonuses over the previous.
>
> You've got a point there but can you upgrade to Wired 2 after you have
> started with Wired 1 ?
>
> I'm not trying to contradict you here. I'm just not sure if it can
be done
> according to the rules of the RPG (after all I haven't played it in
3 years
> :( ). If it can be done then I belive you're absolutely right and
Ravage
> can have Wired Reflexes. If it cannot be done then I'll stick to my
> opinion...

Yes you can, the only cybernetic reflex ehancement to date that can't
be upgraded in the RPG is Boosted Reflexes.

-== Loki ==-
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 2/26/98
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 11
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:44:52 -0800
Doug wrote:

(we all know what's up with Ravage at this point)

> I agree that you can't get a third attack. However it could make sense
> that if she failed her special ability roll, then she could try her Wired
> Reflexes roll to get a second attack.

Y'know, this is a good point. Of course, I still wouldn't waste the
nuyen doing it (5Y and a "Play Cyber-psychosis on me!" sticker so her
chances of backthwapping are doubled? I'll pass.)


-Matt

------------------------------------
I will work harder. -- Boxer: Animal Hero, First-Class

GridSec: SRCard
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 12
From: Joao Maia <joao.maia@*****.PT>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:18:26 +0000
> It's just like Uncle Joe and the cyborgs. It's assumed they have
> cyberware to explain their special abilitity's and stats, but in game
> mechanics they still have an Essence of 6 and no shown gear cards to
> represent this included 'ware.

Good point.

> Another example is Street Scum, they steal a random gear card. If you
> look in our newly compiled SRTCG Q&A you'll see that Jim confirmed
> they are able to steal spells, spirits and cyberware (yet your Runner
> still lives). This would be impossible for a gang of street thugs in
> the RPG but for game mechanics it works here.

I agree with you when it comes to follow the card rules, no matter how
strange they are. However, I believe that this is a matter of common sense.
And some card rules go way against common sense. I'm not complaining about
the rules, actually I love the card game, but when I play the card game, I
like to imagine the situations that happen during the game as if they were
really taking place. There are situations that I find hilarious (such as a
Trash playing the guitar with a Full Heavy Armor suit) but, IMHO, there's a
line between hilarious or awkward situations and impossible situations. And,
due to the rules, impossible situations often happen in a card game...

See ya,

Joao Maia
Message no. 13
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:35:06 -0600
>
>Another example is Street Scum, they steal a random gear card. If you
>look in our newly compiled SRTCG Q&A you'll see that Jim confirmed
>they are able to steal spells, spirits and cyberware (yet your Runner
>still lives). This would be impossible for a gang of street thugs in
>the RPG but for game mechanics it works here.
>
>There's a line where you finally have to stop comparing the RPG and
>TCG when trying to make sense of things.
>


OK, but as long as we are discussing it, can Uncle Joe or Ravage
sacrifice their respective cyberware (chipjack/wired reflexes) to the
Street Scum?

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Legendary Elven Fixer Juhafa Vadic -
Nethermancer Extraoidinaire
It was hot, the night we burned chrome... Some speak ill of the
path we follow...
Message no. 14
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:04:56 -0800
---rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
>
> OK, but as long as we are discussing it, can Uncle Joe or Ravage
> sacrifice their respective cyberware (chipjack/wired reflexes) to the
> Street Scum?

No, in game mechanics they just have special abilities that function
coincidentally as the cyberware coutnerparts. Neither has a GEAR/<FOO>
card on them that can be taken or sacrificed.

-== Loki ==-
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 2/26/98

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 15
From: "(No Name Available)" <mothman@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:16:56 -0600
>If she has Wired Reflexes, do you get to try and have her deal her Attack
>Value thrice?

Do you mean if she is holding the Wired Reflexes card? If so, I'd say
yes.
--
mothman@**********.com

"It's more fun to compute"
—Kraftwerk
Message no. 16
From: "(No Name Available)" <mothman@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:20:54 -0600
>>>Nope. Both cards read, "...deal damage a second time." There's
only one second time (the next time would be the third time, and so on.) Officially, the
cards aren't 'stackable' -- this is in the FASA FAQ.<<<

Ah! I remember seeing that now. Please ignore my previous answer…

(mothman is humbled by Matb's incredible SRTCG acumen)
--
mothman@**********.com

"It's more fun to compute"
—Kraftwerk
Message no. 17
From: "Norman R. McLeod" <mcleodn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:52:35 PST
----------
> > I agree that you can't get a third attack. However it could make sens=
e
> > that
> > if she failed her special ability roll, then she could try her Wired
> > Reflexes
> > roll to get a second attack.

I don't think there's any reason why ravage shouldn't get a third attack.=
Certainly there's no rule or card wording that would indicate this, and =
one must always remember the dice rolling and nuyen cost of this.
Message no. 18
From: NosaJKreaF <NosaJKreaF@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:26:14 EDT
If you check SRTCG FAQ 2.0 you will find that in fact you cannot play wired
reflexes on ravage. :|
Message no. 19
From: Keldon Mor <Keldon@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:14:01 -0500
> If you check SRTCG FAQ 2.0 you will find that in fact you cannot play
wired
> reflexes on ravage. :|

I never really understood that ruling. I know that the way both texts read,
you can not inflict damage a second Second time, but why not put a wired
reflexes on ravage in case you don't roll that 4+, you'd have a Second
Chance to do damage a Second time, this wouldn't be breaking any card or
srtcg rules. So why does FASA feel the need to disallow ravage from putting
the wired reflexes on her when the card text is clear?

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.NetNitco.net/users/keldon/
Message no. 20
From: NosaJKreaF <NosaJKreaF@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Not really a high quality question
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:40:59 EDT
I do not know why they (FASA) would put the restrictions on this combination,
but I would rather put the wired reflexes on someone more badass and
preferably not a prime runner who is draining my Nuyen. Just my opinion.

Jason.

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