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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 01:10:21 -0400
Ok, I got a copy of the ruels for the Origins To9urney, and then I promptly
left them at school :]

However, the only real updates that I have are these:

Before play starts, players will get one Starter Deck and 2 Boosters, and
will have 30 minutes to put together 70 card decks. After that time, all
remaining cardw ill be placed in the Starter Boxes, labeled with the
players names, and turned back in.

After each round, players will have 15 minutes to retrieve their boxes and
make substitutions to their decks, effectively creating a limited suideboard.

Also, scoring and assets. Only runners that are in play at the end of the
round will be counted for "Assets". You add up the Nuyen cost of the runn,
as well as one point for each point of traits that they have (Thus Fame-2
would be worth 2 Nuyen in assets. Biotech would be worth 1 Nuyen. Etc.
I'm not really sure about Anti Social. It is a trait, but wasn;t
addressed. I'll find out as soon as possible).

Anyways, that's the "Showdown" style tournament. Hope to see some of you
there!

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome and Archive
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"Bill gates is just a monocle and a Persian Cat away from being a James
Bond villian."
-- Dennis Miller on HBO
Message no. 2
From: hansen <hansen@********.COM.SG>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:12:22 +0800
>Ok, I got a copy of the ruels for the Origins To9urney, and then I promptly
>left them at school :]
>
>However, the only real updates that I have are these:
>
>Before play starts, players will get one Starter Deck and 2 Boosters, and
>will have 30 minutes to put together 70 card decks. After that time, all
>remaining cardw ill be placed in the Starter Boxes, labeled with the
>players names, and turned back in.

Why 70 cards? The rulebook sez min 60 cards w/o objectives.....

>After each round, players will have 15 minutes to retrieve their boxes and
>make substitutions to their decks, effectively creating a limited
suideboard.

Good idea, sideboarding allows better deckbuilding esp with a new game like
SRTCG....

>Also, scoring and assets. Only runners that are in play at the end of the
>round will be counted for "Assets". You add up the Nuyen cost of the runn,
>as well as one point for each point of traits that they have (Thus Fame-2
>would be worth 2 Nuyen in assets. Biotech would be worth 1 Nuyen. Etc.
>I'm not really sure about Anti Social. It is a trait, but wasn;t
>addressed. I'll find out as soon as possible).

According to the rules Loki posted some time ago, anti-social & hermit are
considered special traits for purpose of assets.... I seriously disagree.
These traits are NOT bonuses, they are limitations. (While you're at it why
not give pts for Prime Runner and Unique....) These 2 traits should not give
a bonus towards end game calculation.

>Anyways, that's the "Showdown" style tournament. Hope to see some of you
>there!
>
>Bull
Message no. 3
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:54:06 -0700
hansen wrote:

> According to the rules Loki posted some time ago, anti-social & hermit are
> considered special traits for purpose of assets.... I seriously disagree.
> These traits are NOT bonuses, they are limitations. (While you're at it why
> not give pts for Prime Runner and Unique....) These 2 traits should not give
> a bonus towards end game calculation.

I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum: Anti-social and Hermit are
limitations, and should give (asset) bonuses to the player who uses
them. Recon, Stamina, Guard and Biotech already have advantages -- they
help you win the game.


- Matt

------------------------------------
In a dark time, the eye begins to see. - T. Roethke

GridSec: SRCard
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 4
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:54:00 -0600
At 22:54 15/05/98 -0700, you wrote:

>> According to the rules Loki posted some time ago, anti-social & hermit are
>> considered special traits for purpose of assets.... I seriously disagree.
>> These traits are NOT bonuses, they are limitations. (While you're at it why
>> not give pts for Prime Runner and Unique....) These 2 traits should not
give
>> a bonus towards end game calculation.
>
>I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum: Anti-social and Hermit are
>limitations, and should give (asset) bonuses to the player who uses
>them. Recon, Stamina, Guard and Biotech already have advantages -- they
>help you win the game.

Here's something I shouldn't do, but here goes: me too! :)

-Adam
Message no. 5
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:55:12 -0400
At 10:54 PM 5/15/98 -0700, Matb wrote these timeless words:

>I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum: Anti-social and Hermit are
>limitations, and should give (asset) bonuses to the player who uses
>them. Recon, Stamina, Guard and Biotech already have advantages -- they
>help you win the game.
>
Keep in mind that for the most part (I think) the Negative Traits ARE
limitations and hinderances as Matt said... Plus, I believe that they are
figured into the overall cost and power/abilities of the card. Thus, the
exact same card without the negative trait might cost more nuyen, have
fewer skills, or whatever... So in the end it does work out...

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome and Archive
Answer Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
---- in semi-production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/
UIN: 6460938

"Bill gates is just a monocle and a Persian Cat away from being a James
Bond villian."
-- Dennis Miller on HBO
Message no. 6
From: hansen <hansen@********.COM.SG>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 15:39:02 +0800
>At 10:54 PM 5/15/98 -0700, Matb wrote these timeless words:
>
>>I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum: Anti-social and Hermit are
>>limitations, and should give (asset) bonuses to the player who uses
>>them. Recon, Stamina, Guard and Biotech already have advantages -- they
>>help you win the game.
>>
>Keep in mind that for the most part (I think) the Negative Traits ARE
>limitations and hinderances as Matt said... Plus, I believe that they are
>figured into the overall cost and power/abilities of the card. Thus, the
>exact same card without the negative trait might cost more nuyen, have
>fewer skills, or whatever... So in the end it does work out...
>
>Bull


but that's the point... I mean what about static? He costs 1 to deploy has
decking 3, tech, anti-social, recon and hermit. 1 nuyen for 7nuyen? So what
if he's easy to kill, I use him in most of my non-decker decks for his
recon(unless I'm using someone better) he's cheap!
Message no. 7
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:41:26 -0700
Bull wrote:

> >I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum: Anti-social and Hermit are
> >limitations, and should give (asset) bonuses to the player who uses
> >them. Recon, Stamina, Guard and Biotech already have advantages -- they
> >help you win the game.

> Keep in mind that for the most part (I think) the Negative Traits ARE
> limitations and hinderances as Matt said... Plus, I believe that they are
> figured into the overall cost and power/abilities of the card. Thus, the
> exact same card without the negative trait might cost more nuyen, have
> fewer skills, or whatever... So in the end it does work out...

Well, er, no. I overlooked the benefit of some of the low-cost Runners
(Skag, Humbug) with negative traits. However, this simply means that
all the traits work out to a more or less balanced position. So if one
should get rewarded, they all should. (I'm not entirely convinced
they're balanced, though -- compare Skag to Hawkwind. Which one gets
played more often?)

It also seems like this would be guaranteed to affect gameplay in some
way. The Deckers have a pretty strong strategy between Fuchi and the
Nuyen thieves; with the added bonus for Recon, which most Deckers will
have, their deck becomes stronger. It only adds incentive to play with
Wanteds and Bar Fights: now you're punching him two ways instead of
one. Maybe its a good thing, maybe its a bad thing - but it seems to me
that it will cause a change in card choice and gameplay (like,
storehousing a couple 'trait' Runners until later in the game, after you
have multiple copies already in play; or, once you have a lockdown on
your opponent, taking a few extra turns to gather up more nuyen so you
can win on assets) and that is definitely not appealing to me.


- Matt

------------------------------------
In a dark time, the eye begins to see. - T. Roethke

GridSec: SRCard
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:23:28 -0400
At 03:39 PM 5/16/98 +0800, hansen wrote these timeless words:

>>Keep in mind that for the most part (I think) the Negative Traits ARE
>>limitations and hinderances as Matt said... Plus, I believe that they are
>>figured into the overall cost and power/abilities of the card. Thus, the
>>exact same card without the negative trait might cost more nuyen, have
>>fewer skills, or whatever... So in the end it does work out...
>>
>but that's the point... I mean what about static? He costs 1 to deploy has
>decking 3, tech, anti-social, recon and hermit. 1 nuyen for 7nuyen? So what
>if he's easy to kill, I use him in most of my non-decker decks for his
>recon(unless I'm using someone better) he's cheap!
>
And for purposes of Assets, he'd be worth 4 Nuyen. Not bad for a 0/1 with
fairly limited potential (Recon is nice and he's useful in a decking deck,
but let's face it... The decks are going to be fairly random... Very
little tuning involved in a sealed deck tourney.

YOu don;t count skill points... Just traits.

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome and Archive
Answer Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
---- in semi-production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/
UIN: 6460938

"Bill gates is just a monocle and a Persian Cat away from being a James
Bond villian."
-- Dennis Miller on HBO
Message no. 9
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:26:40 -0400
At 07:41 AM 5/16/98 -0700, Matb wrote these timeless words:
>Bull wrote:
>
>> >I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum: Anti-social and Hermit are
>> >limitations, and should give (asset) bonuses to the player who uses
>> >them. Recon, Stamina, Guard and Biotech already have advantages -- they
>> >help you win the game.
>
>> Keep in mind that for the most part (I think) the Negative Traits ARE
>> limitations and hinderances as Matt said... Plus, I believe that they are
>> figured into the overall cost and power/abilities of the card. Thus, the
>> exact same card without the negative trait might cost more nuyen, have
>> fewer skills, or whatever... So in the end it does work out...
>
>Well, er, no. I overlooked the benefit of some of the low-cost Runners
>(Skag, Humbug) with negative traits. However, this simply means that
>all the traits work out to a more or less balanced position. So if one
>should get rewarded, they all should. (I'm not entirely convinced
>they're balanced, though -- compare Skag to Hawkwind. Which one gets
>played more often?)
>
>It also seems like this would be guaranteed to affect gameplay in some
>way. The Deckers have a pretty strong strategy between Fuchi and the
>Nuyen thieves; with the added bonus for Recon, which most Deckers will
>have, their deck becomes stronger. It only adds incentive to play with
>Wanteds and Bar Fights: now you're punching him two ways instead of
>one. Maybe its a good thing, maybe its a bad thing - but it seems to me
>that it will cause a change in card choice and gameplay (like,
>storehousing a couple 'trait' Runners until later in the game, after you
>have multiple copies already in play; or, once you have a lockdown on
>your opponent, taking a few extra turns to gather up more nuyen so you
>can win on assets) and that is definitely not appealing to me.
>
Well, don;t forget a couple of things here Matt...

A) Sealed Deck format... You won;t be tuning your decks all THAT much...
(And No Fuchi for the Deckers :))

B) Assets really only affect two things... Ranking in the 2nd and 3rd
rounds of the tourney (Ok, you COULD manipulate it so you fight a weaker
player... But not by THAT much) and tie breakers.

I don;t think Assets will be that big of a factor in the tourney format...
But we'll see how it works in practice :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome and Archive
Answer Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
---- in semi-production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/
UIN: 6460938

"Bill gates is just a monocle and a Persian Cat away from being a James
Bond villian."
-- Dennis Miller on HBO
Message no. 10
From: Norman McLeod <mcleodn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:28:01 -0400
>It also seems like this would be guaranteed to affect gameplay in some
>way. The Deckers have a pretty strong strategy between Fuchi and the
>Nuyen thieves; with the added bonus for Recon, which most Deckers will
>have, their deck becomes stronger. It only adds incentive to play with
>Wanteds and Bar Fights: now you're punching him two ways instead of
>one. Maybe its a good thing, maybe its a bad thing - but it seems to me
>that it will cause a change in card choice and gameplay (like,
>storehousing a couple 'trait' Runners until later in the game, after you
>have multiple copies already in play; or, once you have a lockdown on
>your opponent, taking a few extra turns to gather up more nuyen so you
>can win on assets) and that is definitely not appealing to me.


Here I am, finally opening my mouth on this. I think that traits, nuyen,
skills, etc. should only e used to break a tie, if one is possible. They
have their impact in game play, and that is enough. Your runner with guard
already gives you an advantage in play, you stacks of Yen allow you to play
cards. That is enough. These are the things that earn you reputation, I
don't think you should gain anything extra at all for having them in play at
the end of a round/game.
Message no. 11
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:54:27 -0700
Bull wrote:

> Well, don;t forget a couple of things here Matt...

> A) Sealed Deck format... You won;t be tuning your decks all THAT much...
> (And No Fuchi for the Deckers :))

Good point. Sigh. My Ruin-the-Nuyen deck is still my long-standing
favorite, as cheesy as it gets sometimes.

> B) Assets really only affect two things... Ranking in the 2nd and 3rd
> rounds of the tourney (Ok, you COULD manipulate it so you fight a weaker
> player... But not by THAT much) and tie breakers.

> I don;t think Assets will be that big of a factor in the tourney format...
> But we'll see how it works in practice :]

It'll be interesting to see how things turn out.


- Matt

------------------------------------
In a dark time, the eye begins to see. - T. Roethke

GridSec: SRCard
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 12
From: hansen <hansen@********.COM.SG>
Subject: Re: Origins Tourney Update, Part 2
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:40:36 +0800
<SNIP everything>

I didn't know this was for sealed deck. If it's random not constructed, I
have no problem with any rule as long as it's fairly enforced thruout the
tourney....

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Origins Tourney Update, Part 2, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!