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Message no. 1
From: Mamoulian <shine@************.NET>
Subject: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:41:40 -0700
The group I game with have had several game play questions that have arose:

1) Genetic Monstrosity- When you assign virus tokens on the runner...do
they take effect before or after the combat with the challenge? Do you
have to be healed to turn and get rid of the virus tokens? Or just have to
choose whether to heal or get rid of the token?

2) Lone Star Beat Cops(or any arresting card)- If Sisko uses his special
power on the target runner...is the challenge trashed...or is just that
runner saved from the arrest and another target choosen.( The card states
target runner who is present is arrested and Lone Star Beat Cops is
trahsed. This is why the question arose...if no one is arrested...the
challenge isn't trashed?)

3) Lone Star Crowd Control- If there are less than 4 runners....do you have
to face the challenge. What if the alarm is already triggered?

4) Yakuza Street Thugs- If the alarm is already triggered....can you pay
the nuyen and trash the card?

5) Gang HQ's- Do the cards stay in play? Or are they trashed at the end of
your turn.

6) Sancho- If I use a Rapier with a metahuman to go on a run....does Sancho
still get his bonus?

7) Acid Mist- Does this card effect all runners in runner to runner combat?
Or just the runner(s) in the combat with the runner holding the card?

8) Lone Star Drone- Say I play a drone of Sisko. Sisko has 3\3 (A1).
When I use Lone Star Drone does it follow the regular rules of Drones?
(either using the 3\3 or the 4\4?) or do I get a 7\7? (Question arose since
you don't have to be a rigger to use a drone)

9) Coffin Hotel- Does this stop the Z-Zone? (If my runners are in it of
course.) The Time Delayed Bomb?

10) Lone Star Lock-up- Does the runner who returns for 3 Nuyen have no
deployment cost? Example if Knuckles (cost 8) is arrested, does he only
cost 3 to get back to the Safehouse?

11) The Docks- When first using the Docks, do you place 1 token on it?

12) Shady Manager- Is the die roll for every rocker rolled seperatly, or is
it one roll?

13) Last Stand- What is the point of this card? If I lose all of my
runners I would rather have the challenge kill the other players also.

14) In the Spotlight- If I have 1 copy of Thrash in play and another player
has 2 copies. What happens if the card is played?

15) Forced Attrition- Define Combat. Is Minefield considered combat? What
challenged would not be something that you fought?

I know it's allot of questions. But I am posting for four people. Thanks
everyone!

Mamo
Message no. 2
From: Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:40:36 -0500
IMHO:

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Mamoulian wrote:

> The group I game with have had several game play questions that have arose:
>
> 1) Genetic Monstrosity- When you assign virus tokens on the runner...do
> they take effect before or after the combat with the challenge? Do you
> have to be healed to turn and get rid of the virus tokens? Or just have to
> choose whether to heal or get rid of the token?

I would say they take effect after all damage has been dealt.
the card says that an undamaged runner may turn to remove all the virus
tokens, right? If this is the case, the runner has to heal before they
can be removed.

> 2) Lone Star Beat Cops(or any arresting card)- If Sisko uses his special
> power on the target runner...is the challenge trashed...or is just that
> runner saved from the arrest and another target choosen.( The card states
> target runner who is present is arrested and Lone Star Beat Cops is
> trahsed. This is why the question arose...if no one is arrested...the
> challenge isn't trashed?)

I'd say the challenge is trashed. The runner _was_ arrested, just so
happens that the runner was let free through Sisko's influence. BTW, if
Sisko is present on a shadowrun, can he use his power to help the runner
go free? Hawkwind can use biotech even though she's turned, can Sisko
also?

> 3) Lone Star Crowd Control- If there are less than 4 runners....do you have
> to face the challenge. What if the alarm is already triggered?

no. and no.

> 4) Yakuza Street Thugs- If the alarm is already triggered....can you pay
> the nuyen and trash the card?

yes.

> 5) Gang HQ's- Do the cards stay in play? Or are they trashed at the end of
> your turn.

they stay in play.

> 6) Sancho- If I use a Rapier with a metahuman to go on a run....does Sancho
> still get his bonus?

no.

> 7) Acid Mist- Does this card effect all runners in runner to runner combat?
> Or just the runner(s) in the combat with the runner holding the card?

yes, all the runners who are involved in all combat at the present
location.

> 8) Lone Star Drone- Say I play a drone of Sisko. Sisko has 3\3 (A1).
> When I use Lone Star Drone does it follow the regular rules of Drones?
> (either using the 3\3 or the 4\4?) or do I get a 7\7? (Question arose since
> you don't have to be a rigger to use a drone)

I would ssay you pretend that sisko is a rigger, treat him like one for
the LS drone.

> 9) Coffin Hotel- Does this stop the Z-Zone? (If my runners are in it of
> course.) The Time Delayed Bomb?

yeah, not a very useful card, huh?

> 10) Lone Star Lock-up- Does the runner who returns for 3 Nuyen have no
> deployment cost? Example if Knuckles (cost 8) is arrested, does he only
> cost 3 to get back to the Safehouse?

yup.

> 11) The Docks- When first using the Docks, do you place 1 token on it?

I think the card is meant to be played like this:

either
1. place a crate token on it and roll a die to see if any trashing is in
effect
or
2. collect all the cred.

anyone else?

> 12) Shady Manager- Is the die roll for every rocker rolled seperatly, or is
> it one roll?

by the card, I'd say one roll, but it might be more fair to roll
seperately for each.

> 13) Last Stand- What is the point of this card? If I lose all of my
> runners I would rather have the challenge kill the other players also.

you coud still collect the rep bonuses from the big elementals and the
dracoform. *shrug*

> 14) In the Spotlight- If I have 1 copy of Thrash in play and another player
> has 2 copies. What happens if the card is played?

it says on the card, "no additional copies" Any Thrashes already inplay
woould be fine. Just, nobody else could deploy anymore Thrashes.

make sense?

> 15) Forced Attrition- Define Combat. Is Minefield considered combat? What
> challenged would not be something that you fought?

combat: any exchange of damage between two card with attack and defense
values?

how does that sound all?

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:30:18 -0800
Bradley Aaron Rebh wrote:
>> 3) Lone Star Crowd Control- If there are less than 4 runners....do you have
>> to face the challenge. What if the alarm is already triggered?
>
>no. and no.
>
I think sombody (Loki?) already posted that if the alarm is already
triggered, the challenge must be faced. It probably wasn't an official
ruling, just his opinion, but that's how I'd play it, too.

>> 4) Yakuza Street Thugs- If the alarm is already triggered....can you pay
>> the nuyen and trash the card?
>
>yes.
>
Again, the payoff is to sleaze the challenge. Since the alarm is already
triggered, the challenge must be faced.

David
Message no. 4
From: Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:56:10 -0500
On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, David Reis wrote:

> Bradley Aaron Rebh wrote:
> >> 3) Lone Star Crowd Control- If there are less than 4 runners....do you have
> >> to face the challenge. What if the alarm is already triggered?
> >
> >no. and no.
> >
> I think sombody (Loki?) already posted that if the alarm is already
> triggered, the challenge must be faced. It probably wasn't an official
> ruling, just his opinion, but that's how I'd play it, too.
>
> >> 4) Yakuza Street Thugs- If the alarm is already triggered....can you pay
> >> the nuyen and trash the card?
> >
> >yes.
> >
> Again, the payoff is to sleaze the challenge. Since the alarm is already
> triggered, the challenge must be faced.

I'd agree with you and disagree with you.

here's what the rule book says:
The owner of the Challenge stack reveals the Challenge on the top of the
stack and reads the sleaze requirements aloud. If any Runner or
combination of runners on the Runner team meets the sleaze requirement,
the challenge is sleazed <clip extra text>. If a challenge has no sleaze
requirement, it cannot be sleazed. In that case, follow the instructions
on the card.

Well, it could be argued that the text on the card _is_ the sleaze
requirement, but in the rulebook (page 20), it clearly points out where
the sleaze requirement is located (bottom left hand corner).

I guess the question is, if the alaram is triggered do you still roll dice
for Gut Check and Mine Field?

I'm sort of changing my mind here. Maybe you should be have to face them
after the alarm is triggered. In the rulebook it also says:

Once a Runner team triggers the alarm, all Challenges are alerted to the
runner's presence. The runners cannot sleaze Challenges for the remainder
of the shadowrun and they must face the challenge on which they triggered
the alarm.

The lone star crowd control challenge is especially confusing. If there
are 4+ runners present, the alarm is triggered. there is no sleaze
requirement, does that mean that you _always_ have to fight the crowd
control? I think maybe the card should read, if there are less than 4
runners presnt, sleaze LSCC.

what does everyone else think?

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Felix Hoefert <FHoefert@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:38:46 +0200
Mamoulian wrote:
>
> The group I game with have had several game play questions that have arose:
>
> 1) Genetic Monstrosity- When you assign virus tokens on the runner...do
> they take effect before or after the combat with the challenge? Do you
> have to be healed to turn and get rid of the virus tokens? Or just have to
> choose whether to heal or get rid of the token?
>
> 2) Lone Star Beat Cops(or any arresting card)- If Sisko uses his special
> power on the target runner...is the challenge trashed...or is just that
> runner saved from the arrest and another target choosen.( The card states
> target runner who is present is arrested and Lone Star Beat Cops is
> trahsed. This is why the question arose...if no one is arrested...the
> challenge isn't trashed?)
>
> 3) Lone Star Crowd Control- If there are less than 4 runners....do you have
> to face the challenge. What if the alarm is already triggered?
>
> 4) Yakuza Street Thugs- If the alarm is already triggered....can you pay
> the nuyen and trash the card?
>
> 5) Gang HQ's- Do the cards stay in play? Or are they trashed at the end of
> your turn.
>
> 6) Sancho- If I use a Rapier with a metahuman to go on a run....does Sancho
> still get his bonus?
>
> 7) Acid Mist- Does this card effect all runners in runner to runner combat?
> Or just the runner(s) in the combat with the runner holding the card?
>
> 8) Lone Star Drone- Say I play a drone of Sisko. Sisko has 3\3 (A1).
> When I use Lone Star Drone does it follow the regular rules of Drones?
> (either using the 3\3 or the 4\4?) or do I get a 7\7? (Question arose since
> you don't have to be a rigger to use a drone)
>
> 9) Coffin Hotel- Does this stop the Z-Zone? (If my runners are in it of
> course.) The Time Delayed Bomb?
>
> 10) Lone Star Lock-up- Does the runner who returns for 3 Nuyen have no
> deployment cost? Example if Knuckles (cost 8) is arrested, does he only
> cost 3 to get back to the Safehouse?
>
> 11) The Docks- When first using the Docks, do you place 1 token on it?
>
> 12) Shady Manager- Is the die roll for every rocker rolled seperatly, or is
> it one roll?
>
> 13) Last Stand- What is the point of this card? If I lose all of my
> runners I would rather have the challenge kill the other players also.
>
> 14) In the Spotlight- If I have 1 copy of Thrash in play and another player
> has 2 copies. What happens if the card is played?
>
> 15) Forced Attrition- Define Combat. Is Minefield considered combat? What
> challenged would not be something that you fought?

Whew, a lot of questions. Here we go...

1) You get the tokens after combat, since you have to be damaged by this
Monstrosity to get a token. You must heal first to remove the virus,
since you have to be undamaged.

2)There can be only one... Target Runner, that is. So Sisko effectively
trashes Beat Cops.

3)If the alarm is already triggered, you must face the threat rating.
Alarm is only triggered by this Challenge when there are 4 or more
Runners present.

4)You canīt sleaze YST if the alarm was already triggered.

5)Gang HQs stay in play, so an opponent can attack them with LotI.

6)No. Sanchoīs ability is only valid if you have no metahuman at all on
your side of the table.

7)All runners that are present. That means your own and your
opponent(s).

8)Still only one of the two threat ratings.

9)No. All runners must fight, turned or not.

10)Only the 3 Nuyen.

11)You place 1 token on it, then you roll the die. This effectively
means that the first Runner visiting can not be trashed, but the chances
rise with every Runner visiting.

12)Every Rocker separately.

13)You might want to go for the Challenge again later. Wouldnīt it be
nice if it was gone by then? Sure bet in a 2-player game. Some
Challenges canīt be sleazed, and your Runners might not have the ability
to fight it.

14) Spotlight affects all Runners of the same kind on the table, so in
your example, there could not be a 4th Thrash played.

15)Minefield is not combat, as well as any challeng that directly gives
you damage. Combat only occurs when there is a threat rating on the card
that you fight.

Hope that satisfies it - for today... ---Felix
Message no. 6
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:33:43 -0800
Mamoulian wrote:
>
> The group I game with have had several game play questions that have arose:
>
> 1) Genetic Monstrosity- When you assign virus tokens on the runner...do
> they take effect before or after the combat with the challenge? Do you
> have to be healed to turn and get rid of the virus tokens? Or just have to
> choose whether to heal or get rid of the token?

The Virus tokens are added to any Runner damaged by the Monstrosity
(that fails the D6 roll), so it would have to be after combat. Once on
that Runner, they take effect immediately (in time for the next
Challenge, iow).

Once Virus tokens are on that Runner, he would have to turn to heal
during one Refresh phase, and then turn to remove Virus tokens
(apparently during any phase, but I'd suggest doing it on the Refresh as
well).

> 2) Lone Star Beat Cops(or any arresting card)- If Sisko uses his special
> power on the target runner...is the challenge trashed...or is just that
> runner saved from the arrest and another target choosen.( The card states
> target runner who is present is arrested and Lone Star Beat Cops is
> trahsed. This is why the question arose...if no one is arrested...the
> challenge isn't trashed?)

LSBC is trashed after its effect is resolved -- in this case, it tries
to arrest someone, Sisko flashes his badge, and the Beat moves on.

> 3) Lone Star Crowd Control- If there are less than 4 runners....do you have
> to face the challenge. What if the alarm is already triggered?

I'm with Bradley on this one: Even if the alarm is triggered, if there
are less than four Runners, this Challenge is sleazed.

> 4) Yakuza Street Thugs- If the alarm is already triggered....can you pay
> the nuyen and trash the card?

I'm imagining so.

> 5) Gang HQ's- Do the cards stay in play? Or are they trashed at the end of
> your turn.

They stay in play until LOTI'd / Protector Spirited / Wabbit's Footed
out of play. (Specials and Stingers are only trashed once their effect
is "over". Continuous effects, like the HQs, Totems, and Ambidextrous,
stick around indefinitely.)

> 6) Sancho- If I use a Rapier with a metahuman to go on a run....does Sancho
> still get his bonus?

Unless you somehow became the owner of a metahuman, Sancho would keep
his bonus. Sudden Goblinization works really funny on this guy - he
stays almost as tough.

> 7) Acid Mist- Does this card effect all runners in runner to runner combat?
> Or just the runner(s) in the combat with the runner holding the card?

All Runners present -- in other words, Shasta (with Acid Mist) and Orion
(with an Uzi) get jumpd by three Syns (with Switchblades) through the
Z-zone. Orion's player would roll once, and the Syns' player would roll
three times.

> 8) Lone Star Drone- Say I play a drone of Sisko. Sisko has 3\3 (A1).
> When I use Lone Star Drone does it follow the regular rules of Drones?
> (either using the 3\3 or the 4\4?) or do I get a 7\7? (Question arose since
> you don't have to be a rigger to use a drone)

The Drone would work in the same way -- it replaces the Riggers' Attack
Rating.

> 9) Coffin Hotel- Does this stop the Z-Zone? (If my runners are in it of
> course.) The Time Delayed Bomb?

Yup. Of course, they return to the safehouse turned, so it's not the
best bet.

> 10) Lone Star Lock-up- Does the runner who returns for 3 Nuyen have no
> deployment cost? Example if Knuckles (cost 8) is arrested, does he only
> cost 3 to get back to the Safehouse?

Yup. My understanding is that it takes the Runners out of play, but you
don't have to re-deploy them once again.

The 'arrest' cards are pretty funky -- very cool if you want to use a
Runner's special ability twice or three times in the same turn (deploy,
use, arrest, redploy, re-use...)

> 11) The Docks- When first using the Docks, do you place 1 token on it?

The first time you visit, the Docks are empty. Yeah, suck, suck.

> 12) Shady Manager- Is the die roll for every rocker rolled seperatly, or is
> it one roll?

It's not official, but I'd roll once per Rocker.

> 13) Last Stand- What is the point of this card? If I lose all of my
> runners I would rather have the challenge kill the other players also.

Keep five Y on your Credstick and send Mugsy. Mugsy gets eaten by Super
Tough Challenge; you pay the five yen and Super Tough Challenge is
fragged; Mugsy returns to your hand for another bout.

After a reallllly long game -- three hundred points or so -- you can get
your opponent to hte point where he has *no more Challenges*.
Wheeeee!!!!

> 14) In the Spotlight- If I have 1 copy of Thrash in play and another player
> has 2 copies. What happens if the card is played?

All copies remain in play, but any *additional* (ie, new) copies can't
be played.

> 15) Forced Attrition- Define Combat. Is Minefield considered combat? What
> challenged would not be something that you fought?

Combat requires a Challenge with a Threat Rating.


Hope this all helps!


- Matt

------------------------------------
Beware the man who casts two shadows.

GridSec: SRCard / Wolf in Shepherd's Clothing
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 7
From: Alex McLeod <ghatotkacha@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:13:47 PST
>> 3) Lone Star Crowd Control- If there are less than 4 runners....do
you have
>> to face the challenge. What if the alarm is already triggered?
>
>I'm with Bradley on this one: Even if the alarm is triggered, if there
>are less than four Runners, this Challenge is sleazed.

This debate will be solved when second run comes out, and most automatic
sleaze abilities will become trash, Foxy Roxy for example, keep in mind
that no challenge may be sleazed if thealarm is off, which means that
for now invisibility could not be used after the alarm goes off.
Similarily, in this case, even after the changes are made to card text,
you would have to face the instructions on the card, being unable to
meet the sleaze requirment, and in this case, being unable to sleaze it
anyway, would have to face the card. Make sense?

[OT] Is anyone playing with the new card rulings yet (with the changes
for second run)? If so, do they have a list of them, my fellow players
would be very happy to get a lst of them all so we can play the new
versions (They already make me play Lord Torgo under new rules, and I
would like to find out about the rest of the changes).

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Message no. 8
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:43:28 PST
<Mega snip - mega probably should have been a minor but oh well>

> here's what the rule book says: The owner of the Challenge stack >
reveals the Challenge on the top of the stack and reads the sleaze >
requirements aloud. If any Runner or combination of runners on >
the Runner team meets the sleaze requirement, the challenge is >
sleazed <clip extra text>. If a challenge has no sleaze > > >
requirement, it cannot be sleazed. In that case, follow the > > >
instructions on the card.

I deal with this alot, since most of the games I have been in have been
large muscle decks that do very little for sleezing. Heres how we play
at it. If the first challenge in the stack has a sleeze requirement and
is not sleezed then as per the rules all other challenges must be faced
regardless of what they are and no other challenges can be sleezed even
by such cards as invisability, indirect data trail, crash, or
steamroller. If the first challenge does not have a threat rating, like
ambushed en route, but still has a sleeze requirement. Then if it can
be sleezed the alarm does not go off on this challenge. If it is not
sleezed the alarm goes off and you follow the rule book. Lastly if the
Challenge does not have a sleeze requirement or a threat rateing, like
mine field, then the running team faces the effect of the card and the
alarm does not go off unless other wise stated on the challenge card IE.
Nets.

> Well, it could be argued that the text on the card _is_ the sleaze
> requirement, but in the rulebook (page 20), it clearly points out > >
where the sleaze requirement is located (bottom left hand corner).
>
> I guess the question is, if the alaram is triggered do you still >
roll dice for Gut Check and Mine Field?

Big time yes - Gut check is a wonderful "time to go home children"
challenge

> I'm sort of changing my mind here. Maybe you should be have to face >
them after the alarm is triggered. In the rulebook it also says:
>
> Once a Runner team triggers the alarm, all Challenges are alerted to >
the runner's presence. The runners cannot sleaze Challenges for the >
remainder of the shadowrun and they must face the challenge on which >
they triggered the alarm.



*** In ruling, the Sage attends to the heart, not the eye ***
*** - Tao ***


Donald Arganbright
Jayden Stormwalker


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Message no. 9
From: Earl ClayIII <phoenixflare@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:22:43 PST
I deal with this alot, since most of the games I have been in have been
large muscle decks that do very little for sleezing. Heres how we play
at it. If the first challenge in the stack has a sleeze requirement and
is not sleezed then as per the rules all other challenges must be faced
regardless of what they are and no other challenges can be sleezed even
by such cards as invisability, indirect data trail, crash, or
steamroller. If the first challenge does not have a threat rating, like
ambushed en route, but still has a sleeze requirement. Then if it can
be sleezed the alarm does not go off on this challenge. If it is not
sleezed the alarm goes off and you follow the rule book. Lastly if the
Challenge does not have a sleeze requirement or a threat rateing, like
mine field, then the running team faces the effect of the card and the
alarm does not go off unless other wise stated on the challenge card IE.
Nets.

***Invisibility does in fact let you sleaze post-alarm. Check the FASA
webpage at www.fasa.com . The FAQ spells it out real clearly.***

++++Earl Clay III, loyal gentry rank subject of the luminous nation of Tir Tairngire+++++
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Message no. 10
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:26:57 -0800
---Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU> wrote:
>
> I'd say the challenge is trashed. The runner _was_ arrested, just so
> happens that the runner was let free through Sisko's influence.
BTW, if
> Sisko is present on a shadowrun, can he use his power to help the
runner
> go free? Hawkwind can use biotech even though she's turned, can Sisko
> also?

Hawkwind's Biotech is a trait. Sisko's ability is a special. In this
regard they may be different and Sisko may be required to turn to use
his special If that were the case it wouldn't be able to be used when
he's already turned for a run.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/29/98
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Message no. 11
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:56:35 -0800
---Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU> wrote:
>
> I guess the question is, if the alaram is triggered do you still
roll dice
> for Gut Check and Mine Field?

If it helps any, this is from the SRCard Q&A:

Q1: Is there a difference between the skill requirement for sleazing a
challenge and alternate choices to "sleaze" as listed in the card text
(i.e. - Gut Check or Feeding Ghouls)? If not then a combination like a
triggered Motion Detectors (or a Red Alert) and then a Gut Check could
effectively form a dead lock with very few options to get past it.

A1: Once Motion Detectors and Red Alert are played, Challenges cannot
be sleazed. However, cards like Feeding Ghouls and Gut Check! are,
indeed, an exception to this. As you point out, not being able to get
past Gut Check! on a successful roll makes no sense (and we are
counting on people to use some common sense in such situations. We
don't want the game to become as convoluted as Magic can be.) Sleep
spell would also work against Objectives defended by Red Alert and
Motion Detectors.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
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Message no. 12
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:13:06 -0800
---Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM> wrote:
>
> I deal with this alot, since most of the games I have been in have
been
> large muscle decks that do very little for sleezing. Heres how we
play
> at it. If the first challenge in the stack has a sleeze requirement
and
> is not sleezed then as per the rules all other challenges must be
faced
> regardless of what they are and no other challenges can be sleezed
even
> by such cards as invisability, indirect data trail, crash, or
> steamroller. If the first challenge does not have a threat rating,
like
> ambushed en route, but still has a sleeze requirement. Then if it can
> be sleezed the alarm does not go off on this challenge. If it is not
> sleezed the alarm goes off and you follow the rule book. Lastly if
the
> Challenge does not have a sleeze requirement or a threat rateing, like
> mine field, then the running team faces the effect of the card and the
> alarm does not go off unless other wise stated on the challenge card
IE.
> Nets.

I agree and disagree with you.

First, here's what we have on a related question in the SRCard Q&A:

Q1: Is there a difference between the skill requirement for sleazing a
challenge and alternate choices to "sleaze" as listed in the card text
(i.e. - Gut Check or Feeding Ghouls)? If not then a combination like a
triggered Motion Detectors (or a Red Alert) and then a Gut Check could
effectively form a dead lock with very few options to get past it.

A1: Once Motion Detectors and Red Alert are played, Challenges cannot
be sleazed. However, cards like Feeding Ghouls and Gut Check! are,
indeed, an exception to this. As you point out, not being able to get
past Gut Check! on a successful roll makes no sense (and we are
counting on people to use some common sense in such situations. We
don't want the game to become as convoluted as Magic can be.) Sleep
spell would also work against Objectives defended by Red Alert and
Motion Detectors.

From this Q&A we can gather that even if the alarm is triggered or
some other influence is preventing sleazing, you may still use
invisibilty/sleep or things like steamroller to get past Challenges.
These are card text effects that trash Challenges and not skill-based
sleazing which is what is prevented. 2nd Run will clear up the
difference in wording between trashing a Challenge and Sleazing one
(Underworld corrected this to a degree).

This comes from the FASA FAQ:

Q. If my Runners take damage from Mine Field is the alarm triggered?

A. Yes.

So your reference to Minefield wasn't completely correct. It does
trigger an alarm if you don't make the correct die roll even though
it's not stated on the card. (A big boom outside your office building
should give something away.)

> > I guess the question is, if the alaram is triggered do you still >
> roll dice for Gut Check and Mine Field?
>
> Big time yes - Gut check is a wonderful "time to go home children"
> challenge

See above.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/28/98
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Message no. 13
From: Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:24:18 -0500
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Loki wrote:

> First, here's what we have on a related question in the SRCard Q&A:
>
> Q1: Is there a difference between the skill requirement for sleazing a
> challenge and alternate choices to "sleaze" as listed in the card text
> (i.e. - Gut Check or Feeding Ghouls)? If not then a combination like a
> triggered Motion Detectors (or a Red Alert) and then a Gut Check could
> effectively form a dead lock with very few options to get past it.
>
> A1: Once Motion Detectors and Red Alert are played, Challenges cannot
> be sleazed. However, cards like Feeding Ghouls and Gut Check! are,
> indeed, an exception to this. As you point out, not being able to get
> past Gut Check! on a successful roll makes no sense (and we are
> counting on people to use some common sense in such situations. We
> don't want the game to become as convoluted as Magic can be.) Sleep
> spell would also work against Objectives defended by Red Alert and
> Motion Detectors.

Which would mean the Yakuza Street Thugs can be payed off and if you have
less than 4 runners present, the Lone Star Crowd Control will ignore you,
right?

Those two cards are what got this thread going in the first place.

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:11:34 -0800
---Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Loki wrote:
>
> > First, here's what we have on a related question in the SRCard Q&A:
> >
> > Q1: Is there a difference between the skill requirement for
sleazing a
> > challenge and alternate choices to "sleaze" as listed in the card
text
> > (i.e. - Gut Check or Feeding Ghouls)? If not then a combination
like a
> > triggered Motion Detectors (or a Red Alert) and then a Gut Check
could
> > effectively form a dead lock with very few options to get past it.
> >
> > A1: Once Motion Detectors and Red Alert are played, Challenges
cannot
> > be sleazed. However, cards like Feeding Ghouls and Gut Check! are,
> > indeed, an exception to this. As you point out, not being able to
get
> > past Gut Check! on a successful roll makes no sense (and we are
> > counting on people to use some common sense in such situations. We
> > don't want the game to become as convoluted as Magic can be.) Sleep
> > spell would also work against Objectives defended by Red Alert and
> > Motion Detectors.
>
> Which would mean the Yakuza Street Thugs can be payed off and if you
have
> less than 4 runners present, the Lone Star Crowd Control will ignore
you,
> right?
>
> Those two cards are what got this thread going in the first place.

I don't think so. Underworld seems to adhere to the differentiation in
use between trashing a Challange (i.e. Duncan's special) and Sleazing
a challenge (something akin to Skill Sleazing).

YST and LSCC both have threat ratings meaning they can be combatted
and don't pose the lock out that Gut Check would if unable to
sleaze/trash it.

Paying the fee or have a small team should be considered the same as a
skill sleaze requirement for these cards. IMHO a triggered alarm from
a previous challenge means you fight YST or LSCC when revelead
regardless of the size of your team or how much cash you have.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/28/98
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Message no. 15
From: Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:22:55 -0500
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Loki wrote:

> ---Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Loki wrote:
> >
> > > First, here's what we have on a related question in the SRCard Q&A:
> > >
> > > Q1: Is there a difference between the skill requirement for sleazing a
> > > challenge and alternate choices to "sleaze" as listed in the
cartext
> > > (i.e. - Gut Check or Feeding Ghouls)? If not then a combination like
> > > triggered Motion Detectors (or a Red Alert) and then a Gut Check
> > > effectively form a dead lock with very few options to get past it.
> > >
> > > A1: Once Motion Detectors and Red Alert are played, Challenges can't
> > > be sleazed. However, cards like Feeding Ghouls and Gut Check! are,
> > > indeed, an exception to this. As you point out, not being able to
> > > get past Gut Check! on a successful roll makes no sense (and we are
> > > counting on people to use some common sense in such situations. We
> > > don't want the game to become as convoluted as Magic can be.) Sleep
> > > spell would also work against Objectives defended by Red Alert and
> > > Motion Detectors.
> >
> YST and LSCC both have threat ratings meaning they can be combatted
> and don't pose the lock out that Gut Check would if unable to
> sleaze/trash it.
>
> Paying the fee or have a small team should be considered the same as a
> skill sleaze requirement for these cards. IMHO a triggered alarm from
> a previous challenge means you fight YST or LSCC when revelead
> regardless of the size of your team or how much cash you have.

But above you mention that Feeding Ghouls's special ability can still be
used. I'm just trying to keep things straight here.

let me know...

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:47:10 -0800
---Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Loki wrote:
>
> > ---Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Loki wrote:
> > >
> > > > First, here's what we have on a related question in the SRCard
Q&A:
> > > >
> > > > Q1: Is there a difference between the skill requirement for
sleazing a
> > > > challenge and alternate choices to "sleaze" as listed in the
cartext
> > > > (i.e. - Gut Check or Feeding Ghouls)? If not then a
combination like
> > > > triggered Motion Detectors (or a Red Alert) and then a Gut Check
> > > > effectively form a dead lock with very few options to get past
it.
> > > >
> > > > A1: Once Motion Detectors and Red Alert are played, Challenges
can't
> > > > be sleazed. However, cards like Feeding Ghouls and Gut Check!
are,
> > > > indeed, an exception to this. As you point out, not being able
to
> > > > get past Gut Check! on a successful roll makes no sense (and
we are
> > > > counting on people to use some common sense in such
situations. We
> > > > don't want the game to become as convoluted as Magic can be.)
Sleep
> > > > spell would also work against Objectives defended by Red Alert
and
> > > > Motion Detectors.
> > >
> > YST and LSCC both have threat ratings meaning they can be combatted
> > and don't pose the lock out that Gut Check would if unable to
> > sleaze/trash it.
> >
> > Paying the fee or have a small team should be considered the same
as a
> > skill sleaze requirement for these cards. IMHO a triggered alarm
from
> > a previous challenge means you fight YST or LSCC when revelead
> > regardless of the size of your team or how much cash you have.
>
> But above you mention that Feeding Ghouls's special ability can
still be
> used. I'm just trying to keep things straight here.
>
> let me know...

Actually, I didn't say it. It was a question I passed on to Jim and
his answer back.

I understand what you're saying/asking though and it's part of the
whole 1st Run confusion between trashing or sleazing a Challenge.

Best I can explain is this: "Sleazing" in regards to a Challenge in
1st Run primarily refers meeting the skill requirements as found in
the bottom left corner of the card. Card text that refers to sleazing
the Challenge should be read as "trashing" (i.e. the text on Gut Check
or Feeding Ghouls).

Underworld, 2nd Run and upcoming releases are products after the fact.
the DLOH's are now aware of the confusion and you should for the most
part be able to take the card text as written: a sleaze is a sleaze
(meaning it can't happen after an alarm) and a trash is a trash
(meaning it's not alarm dependant. Duncan may still trash his street
Challenge whether the alarm is triggered or not.

2nd Run will revamp the confusing text on most of these cards. For now
we need to use common sense and the Skill-Sleaze Text-Trash rule of
thumb.

I think Duncan's special helps to interpret Foxy Roxy and Razorback as
trashing the Challenge rather then being an auto-skill-sleaze as well.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/28/98
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Message no. 17
From: Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:56:05 -0500
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Loki wrote:

> ---Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU> wrote:
>
> I understand what you're saying/asking though and it's part of the
> whole 1st Run confusion between trashing or sleazing a Challenge.
>
> Best I can explain is this: "Sleazing" in regards to a Challenge in
> 1st Run primarily refers meeting the skill requirements as found in
> the bottom left corner of the card. Card text that refers to sleazing
> the Challenge should be read as "trashing" (i.e. the text on Gut Check
> or Feeding Ghouls).
>
> Underworld, 2nd Run and upcoming releases are products after the fact.
> the DLOH's are now aware of the confusion and you should for the most
> part be able to take the card text as written: a sleaze is a sleaze
> (meaning it can't happen after an alarm) and a trash is a trash
> (meaning it's not alarm dependant. Duncan may still trash his street
> Challenge whether the alarm is triggered or not.
>
> 2nd Run will revamp the confusing text on most of these cards. For now
> we need to use common sense and the Skill-Sleaze Text-Trash rule of
> thumb.
>
> I think Duncan's special helps to interpret Foxy Roxy and Razorback as
> trashing the Challenge rather then being an auto-skill-sleaze as well.

Doesn't it say somewhere in the rulebook that if a challenge is sleazed,
you should trash it? So sleazing, trashes the challenge, right? So,
what's the difference between the two?

I really don't mean to be a pain on this one, I'm just became a little
confused since this thread started.

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:14:12 -0800
At 01:56 PM 3/31/98 -0500, Bradley Aaron Rebh wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Loki wrote:
>> I understand what you're saying/asking though and it's part of the
>> whole 1st Run confusion between trashing or sleazing a Challenge.
>>
>> Best I can explain is this: "Sleazing" in regards to a Challenge in
>> 1st Run primarily refers meeting the skill requirements as found in
>> the bottom left corner of the card. Card text that refers to sleazing
>> the Challenge should be read as "trashing" (i.e. the text on Gut Check
>> or Feeding Ghouls).
>>
>> Underworld, 2nd Run and upcoming releases are products after the fact.
>> the DLOH's are now aware of the confusion and you should for the most
>> part be able to take the card text as written: a sleaze is a sleaze
>> (meaning it can't happen after an alarm) and a trash is a trash
>> (meaning it's not alarm dependant. Duncan may still trash his street
>> Challenge whether the alarm is triggered or not.
>>
>> 2nd Run will revamp the confusing text on most of these cards. For now
>> we need to use common sense and the Skill-Sleaze Text-Trash rule of
>> thumb.
>>
>> I think Duncan's special helps to interpret Foxy Roxy and Razorback as
>> trashing the Challenge rather then being an auto-skill-sleaze as well.
>
>Doesn't it say somewhere in the rulebook that if a challenge is sleazed,
>you should trash it? So sleazing, trashes the challenge, right? So,
>what's the difference between the two?
>
IMHO, the difference is a challenge may be sleazed if the alarm has not
already been triggered, but a challenge may be trashed if the right
conditions are met even after the alarm is triggered.

David
Message no. 19
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions arising from play
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:19:25 -0800
---David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM> wrote:
>
> >Doesn't it say somewhere in the rulebook that if a challenge is
sleazed,
> >you should trash it? So sleazing, trashes the challenge, right? So,
> >what's the difference between the two?
> >
> IMHO, the difference is a challenge may be sleazed if the alarm has
not
> already been triggered, but a challenge may be trashed if the right
> conditions are met even after the alarm is triggered.

Bingo! You got it.

Harking back to the old Torgo LotP debate. Sleazing a challenge means
it's Trashed, Trashing a challenge doesn't necessarily mean it was
Sleazed.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/29/98

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