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Message no. 1
From: "<Jerry Qualls>" <Freakfingr@***.COM>
Subject: Repeat ?
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:10:11 EDT
I hate to sound stupid but thats what usually happens anyway so here goes.
The Location Genetics Lab says the clone does not possess the special traits
or abilitys of the visiting runner. Its obvious what the traits are (says
right in th rule book) but i can't find Abilitys does it mean Skills? What
qualities , exactly, do the clones have in relation to regular runners?
I have inquired before but hav'nt recieved a satisfactory answer. Can
someone please enlighten me? I would greatly appreciate it.

Freakfingr
Message no. 2
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:48:00 +0200
Jerry Qualls schrieb:
> I hate to sound stupid but thats what usually happens anyway so here goes.
> The Location Genetics Lab says the clone does not possess the special traits
> or abilitys of the visiting runner. Its obvious what the traits are (says
> right in th rule book) but i can't find Abilitys does it mean Skills? What
> qualities , exactly, do the clones have in relation to regular runners?
> I have inquired before but hav'nt recieved a satisfactory answer. Can
> someone please enlighten me? I would greatly appreciate it.
>
> Freakfingr

They mean your Clon have nothing of the nice thing below the threat rating.So a
Clon of Torgo can`t kill elves, has no stamina and cost no upkeep.
I think a Torgo without this things is realy nice to intercept a run.
A other nice use for clones is Atztec.
Or for fuchi Decks to clone static.
Or to send 6 Torgo on a Clean the Hive.
OLAF
Message no. 3
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 07:20:36 -0700
---"<Jerry Qualls>" <Freakfingr@***.COM> wrote:
>
> I hate to sound stupid but thats what usually happens anyway so here goes.
> The Location Genetics Lab says the clone does not possess the special traits
> or abilitys of the visiting runner. Its obvious what the traits are (says
> right in th rule book) but i can't find Abilitys does it mean Skills? What
> qualities , exactly, do the clones have in relation to regular runners?
> I have inquired before but hav'nt recieved a satisfactory answer. Can
> someone please enlighten me? I would greatly appreciate it.

Abilities would be the card text special abilities of certain runners. For
example Duncan's ability to trash a Street Challenge, Mole's free cyberdeck,
or Torgo's elf killing ability. A clone still gets the skills of his original,
but will not get the traits (Recon, Biotech, Hermit) or special abilities
listed under card text.

Does that make more sense.

Of course, one could raise the question, is a clone of Tinkerbell still unable
to wear armor? IMHO yes, as this is more a limitation and less a special
ability.

-== Loki ==-
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Message no. 4
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 07:16:16 -0700
---"O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE> wrote:
>
> They mean your Clon have nothing of the nice thing below the threat
rating.So a
> Clon of Torgo can`t kill elves, has no stamina and cost no upkeep.
> I think a Torgo without this things is realy nice to intercept a run.
> A other nice use for clones is Atztec.
> Or for fuchi Decks to clone static.
> Or to send 6 Torgo on a Clean the Hive.

IIRC a clone of Torgo is still a Prime Runner. It just doesn't have stamina or
his elf killing ability. Thus the clone still has upkeep and can't come into
play w/o something like Copycat Syndrome being in effect.

At least I don't remember anything stating it loses the prime runner standing.

-== Loki ==-

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Message no. 5
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:38:42 +0200
Loki schrieb:
> ---"<Jerry Qualls>" <Freakfingr@***.COM> wrote:
> >
> > I hate to sound stupid but thats what usually happens anyway so here goes.
> > The Location Genetics Lab says the clone does not possess the special
> traits
> > or abilitys of the visiting runner. Its obvious what the traits are (says
> > right in th rule book) but i can't find Abilitys does it mean Skills? What
> > qualities , exactly, do the clones have in relation to regular runners?
> > I have inquired before but hav'nt recieved a satisfactory answer. Can
> > someone please enlighten me? I would greatly appreciate it.
>
> Abilities would be the card text special abilities of certain runners. For
> example Duncan's ability to trash a Street Challenge, Mole's free cyberdeck,
> or Torgo's elf killing ability. A clone still gets the skills of his original,
> but will not get the traits (Recon, Biotech, Hermit) or special abilities
> listed under card text.
>
> Does that make more sense.
>
> Of course, one could raise the question, is a clone of Tinkerbell still unable
> to wear armor? IMHO yes, as this is more a limitation and less a special
> ability.
>
> -== Loki ==-


I dont think so too,because if i clone Gore tusk he is not antisocial.
So why a Tinkerbell clone shoud not lose this "abiliti".But I dont think that it
is worth any more words,because a clone cant use any gear.

OLAF
Message no. 6
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:38:43 +0200
Loki schrieb:
> ---"O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE> wrote:
> >
> > They mean your Clon have nothing of the nice thing below the threat
> rating.So a
> > Clon of Torgo can`t kill elves, has no stamina and cost no upkeep.
> > I think a Torgo without this things is realy nice to intercept a run.
> > A other nice use for clones is Atztec.
> > Or for fuchi Decks to clone static.
> > Or to send 6 Torgo on a Clean the Hive.
>
> IIRC a clone of Torgo is still a Prime Runner. It just doesn't have stamina or
> his elf killing ability. Thus the clone still has upkeep and can't come into
> play w/o something like Copycat Syndrome being in effect.
>
> At least I don't remember anything stating it loses the prime runner standing.
>

Ok,thats right.I`m sorry about that.All the times I remember playing with GL we
have sayed the Clone is a Clone Runner not a Trog or a human or a somethink else
runner.So I cant clone Prime runner ?

OLAF
Message no. 7
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:00:31 -0700
---"O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE> wrote:
>
> >
> > IIRC a clone of Torgo is still a Prime Runner. It just doesn't have
stamina or
> > his elf killing ability. Thus the clone still has upkeep and can't come into
> > play w/o something like Copycat Syndrome being in effect.
> >
> > At least I don't remember anything stating it loses the prime runner
standing.
> >
>
> Ok,thats right.I`m sorry about that.All the times I remember playing with GL
we
> have sayed the Clone is a Clone Runner not a Trog or a human or a somethink
else
> runner.So I cant clone Prime runner ?

You could send a PR to the GL and attempt to create a clone. If successful,
however, you'll have to choose between putting the clone in play and trashing
the original PR or keeping the original and trashing the clone, as you can
only have one of each PR in play. Copycat syndrome or something similar could
help resolve such a situation.

How come you say a clone doesn't maintain race. A clone of Macabre should
still be a human runner, a clone of Tinkerbell would be an elf. There's
nothing written on GL that says it negates race. In theory I should be able to
clone Macabre for the nice set of skills, and then throw Sudden Goblinization
on the clone to ork him out and get the +1/+1. I don't know of anything that
would lead to the contrary.

-== Loki ==-
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Message no. 8
From: Keldon Mor <Keldon@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:39:03 -0500
>
> At least I don't remember anything stating it loses the prime runner
standing.
>

>Ok,thats right.I`m sorry about that.All the times I remember playing with
GL we
>have sayed the Clone is a Clone Runner not a Trog or a human or a somethink
else
>runner.So I cant clone Prime runner ?


Should have asked skuzzy about this at gencon :) It says treat the clone
as a exacte duplicate but is it still a clone or a runner? Is it human? Can
sudden Golinization be played on it? If you can clone a prime runner, do you
have to pay upkeep? All viabable questions and can be argued either way. I
like to play the clone side, where Torgo can be cloned, etc... There's
nothing stopping you from send Torgo to GL and once he's there, a die rolled
is made. Since the card, in a sense, is the one deploying the runner, and
cards can break the rules, is it legal?
On another note, I'm suprised that Bill Clinton isn't on the list. He
would have been a contender on the Great Torgo Debate. "Well, it depends on
what is IS...".

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
"To bad ignorance isn't painful..."
Message no. 9
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:47:55 +0200
Loki schrieb:
> ---"O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > IIRC a clone of Torgo is still a Prime Runner. It just doesn't have
> stamina or
> > > his elf killing ability. Thus the clone still has upkeep and can't come
> into
> > > play w/o something like Copycat Syndrome being in effect.
> > >
> > > At least I don't remember anything stating it loses the prime runner
> standing.
> > >
> >
> > Ok,thats right.I`m sorry about that.All the times I remember playing with GL
> we
> > have sayed the Clone is a Clone Runner not a Trog or a human or a somethink
> else
> > runner.So I cant clone Prime runner ?
>
> You could send a PR to the GL and attempt to create a clone. If successful,
> however, you'll have to choose between putting the clone in play and trashing
> the original PR or keeping the original and trashing the clone, as you can
> only have one of each PR in play. Copycat syndrome or something similar could
> help resolve such a situation.
>
> How come you say a clone doesn't maintain race. A clone of Macabre should
> still be a human runner, a clone of Tinkerbell would be an elf. There's
> nothing written on GL that says it negates race. In theory I should be able to
> clone Macabre for the nice set of skills, and then throw Sudden Goblinization
> on the clone to ork him out and get the +1/+1. I don't know of anything that
> would lead to the contrary.
>
> -== Loki ==-

We have make it easy and have sayed the clone have nothing to stand in the field
where the stamina and the other things stands.About no upkeep, we think to be a
prime runner you must earn a lot of Reputation so the people know who you are.
A Clone has not earned any rep. he just have a barcode on his ass,;)
Just a other Houserule, we have played that you can`t earn rep. if you play
wanted on a clone(he has no kost).

OLAF
Message no. 10
From: q & a <maddox_prime@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:57:32 EDT
<Snip>

>We have make it easy and have sayed the clone have nothing to stand in
>the field
>where the stamina and the other things stands.About no upkeep, we
>think to be a
>prime runner you must earn a lot of Reputation so the people know who
>you are.
>A Clone has not earned any rep. he just have a barcode on his ass,;)
>Just a other Houserule, we have played that you can`t earn rep. if you
>play
>wanted on a clone(he has no kost).
>
>OLAF
>
So, you could get away with, say, running Torgo into Gl a few times (With
copycat on him) And then let loose a team of 6 torgo clones on an
objective??? what's that a 9/9 armor 2 or something times 6!!!) That
seems to be a way of making an unbeatable deck, more so..... (No flames
about unbeatable decks..... I already everyones opinions on that
subject.....)

Maddox_

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Message no. 11
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 05:50:38 +0200
q & a schrieb:
> <Snip>
>
> >We have make it easy and have sayed the clone have nothing to stand in
> >the field
> >where the stamina and the other things stands.About no upkeep, we
> >think to be a
> >prime runner you must earn a lot of Reputation so the people know who
> >you are.
> >A Clone has not earned any rep. he just have a barcode on his ass,;)
> >Just a other Houserule, we have played that you can`t earn rep. if you
> >play
> >wanted on a clone(he has no kost).
> >
> >OLAF
> >
> So, you could get away with, say, running Torgo into Gl a few times (With
> copycat on him) And then let loose a team of 6 torgo clones on an
> objective??? what's that a 9/9 armor 2 or something times 6!!!) That
> seems to be a way of making an unbeatable deck, more so..... (No flames
> about unbeatable decks..... I already everyones opinions on that
> subject.....)
>
> Maddox_
>
Hmmm, thats right.But dont forget cherry bomb.
And even with a upkeep of 12 it is possible to do this.
At last there is the In-fighting 2 of them kill them all.

OLAF
Message no. 12
From: Tony Glinka <porthos@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:23:17 -0700
q & a wrote:
> So, you could get away with, say, running Torgo into Gl a few times (With
> copycat on him) And then let loose a team of 6 torgo clones on an
> objective??? what's that a 9/9 armor 2 or something times 6!!!) That
> seems to be a way of making an unbeatable deck, more so..... (No flames
> about unbeatable decks..... I already everyones opinions on that
> subject.....)

But you also have to remember that there is a chance that the runner who
visits Genetics Lab will get trashed. Torgo and Skwraaaaaark! are
pretty expensive to risk trashing. Just something else to throw out
there.

Tony
--
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Home of the SRTCG Q&A: SRCard's Official Unofficial SRTCG FAQ
Message no. 13
From: Freak Finger <Freakfingr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 02:59:50 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-25 01:23:50 EDT, you write:

<< & a wrote:
> So, you could get away with, say, running Torgo into Gl a few times (With
> copycat on him) And then let loose a team of 6 torgo clones on an
> objective??? what's that a 9/9 armor 2 or something times 6!!!) That
> seems to be a way of making an unbeatable deck, more so..... (No flames
> about unbeatable decks..... I already everyones opinions on that
> subject.....)

But you also have to remember that there is a chance that the runner who
visits Genetics Lab will get trashed. Torgo and Skwraaaaaark! are
pretty expensive to risk trashing. Just something else to throw out
there.

Tony
-- >>


First you would have to get Genetics Lab into play (a unique card). Lord
Torgo (a Prime runner) would have to be in play at the same time. While paying
Lord Torgo's upkeep cost your going to risk cloning him and have a 33% chance
of trashing him. To build your army of 6 Torgos you have to beat the odds 6
times! If my deck lets you get to this point in a game i say you deserve to
win.
FreakFingr
Message no. 14
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 06:57:58 -0700
---q & a <maddox_prime@****.COM> wrote:
>
> So, you could get away with, say, running Torgo into Gl a few times (With
> copycat on him) And then let loose a team of 6 torgo clones on an
> objective??? what's that a 9/9 armor 2 or something times 6!!!) That
> seems to be a way of making an unbeatable deck, more so..... (No flames
> about unbeatable decks..... I already everyones opinions on that
> subject.....)

It's not as easy as you think to reach such a point.

First Genetics Lab has to be put in play, and kept in play. Cherry Bomb, LS
Surveill and other things can hamper you here.

You then have to have a big bully like Torgo or Skwaaaaaark out to send to GL.

When you send him to GL, there's a 33% chance your going to lose your pirzed
brute, and another 33% chance that nothing will happen at all. That's 2/3 of a
chance you've wasted your run on the location. This means you're not pumping
out your army of Torgo's in six consecutive turns of having the combination on
the table.

What I'm saying is, you have to have the location and then the huge runner
both out to do what you've suggested, this will take a few turns in itself.
Then you have to successfully visit the GL a number of times to get your army
of brutes. This means going to GL and successfully making the 33% roll to get
the clone. You'll also have to do repeat visits to make up for the those times
you lose a runner to the lab.

Also, if you're creating 6 Torgos you'll have an upkeep to keep them in play.
You're looking at 2... 4... 6... 8... 10... and 12 nu yen each turn as you
gradually become suuccessful. Maybe possibly in extreme situations, but not
likely.

There are easier ways to accomplish you proposed "unbeatable" deck, I wouldn't
sweat this scenerio.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Message no. 15
From: q & a <maddox_prime@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:55:00 EDT
>> So, you could get away with, say, running Torgo into Gl a few times
(With
>> copycat on him) And then let loose a team of 6 torgo clones on an
>> objective??? what's that a 9/9 armor 2 or something times 6!!!)

<snip>


>That seems to be a way of making an unbeatable deck, more so.....
>Also, if you're creating 6 Torgos you'll have an upkeep to keep them
>in play.
>You're looking at 2... 4... 6... 8... 10... and 12 nu yen each turn as
>you
>gradually become suuccessful. Maybe possibly in extreme situations,
>but not
>likely.

RE: the upkeep cost, I realize this, I was trying to make the point
directed at Kramer, and Olaf, as they both said in Germany, they all play
a clone with no upkeep..... I was trying to use the example to show,
how requiring no upkeep could be vastly abused.... Next time, I'll use
generic prime runner A with a 30/100 A50 with all skills at 751Y upkeep
to make the point.

As to the risk involved..... Send your runner to GL, play a lucky die
or 4..... and for the following clones..... just clone a clone.....
My old oponent has managed to run up quite a few dwarfs this way in his
Yak deck.....

>
>There are easier ways to accomplish you proposed "unbeatable" deck, I
wouldn't
>sweat this scenerio.
>
and I'd never worry about an unbeatable deck..... there aren't any.....
every deck combo you can come up with, could be beat..... you just need
to know how to cheat when you shuffle. (God I miss the card games in
Pelican Bay.)

Maddox_

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Message no. 16
From: Freak Finger <Freakfingr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:58:45 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-25 19:56:58 EDT, you write:

<<
>> So, you could get away with, say, running Torgo into Gl a few times
(With
>> copycat on him) And then let loose a team of 6 torgo clones on an
>> objective??? what's that a 9/9 armor 2 or something times 6!!!)

<snip>


>That seems to be a way of making an unbeatable deck, more so.....
>Also, if you're creating 6 Torgos you'll have an upkeep to keep them
>in play.
>You're looking at 2... 4... 6... 8... 10... and 12 nu yen each turn as
>you
>gradually become suuccessful. Maybe possibly in extreme situations,
>but not
>likely.

RE: the upkeep cost, I realize this, I was trying to make the point
directed at Kramer, and Olaf, as they both said in Germany, they all play
a clone with no upkeep..... I was trying to use the example to show,
how requiring no upkeep could be vastly abused.... Next time, I'll use
generic prime runner A with a 30/100 A50 with all skills at 751Y upkeep
to make the point.

As to the risk involved..... Send your runner to GL, play a lucky die
or 4..... and for the following clones..... just clone a clone.....
My old oponent has managed to run up quite a few dwarfs this way in his
Yak deck..... >>


Can a Clone Token be sent to GL to be cloned? Is a clone token considered a
runner for all asspects of the game, just without the ability to use gear?

Sorry ,is this was asked before i missed it.
Message no. 17
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:39:01 +0200
Freak Finger schrieb:
> In a message dated 98-09-25 19:56:58 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> >> So, you could get away with, say, running Torgo into Gl a few times
> (With
> >> copycat on him) And then let loose a team of 6 torgo clones on an
> >> objective??? what's that a 9/9 armor 2 or something times 6!!!)
>
> <snip>
>
>
> >That seems to be a way of making an unbeatable deck, more so.....
> >Also, if you're creating 6 Torgos you'll have an upkeep to keep them
> >in play.
> >You're looking at 2... 4... 6... 8... 10... and 12 nu yen each turn as
> >you
> >gradually become suuccessful. Maybe possibly in extreme situations,
> >but not
> >likely.
>
> RE: the upkeep cost, I realize this, I was trying to make the point
> directed at Kramer, and Olaf, as they both said in Germany, they all play
> a clone with no upkeep..... I was trying to use the example to show,
> how requiring no upkeep could be vastly abused.... Next time, I'll use
> generic prime runner A with a 30/100 A50 with all skills at 751Y upkeep
> to make the point.
>
> As to the risk involved..... Send your runner to GL, play a lucky die
> or 4..... and for the following clones..... just clone a clone.....
> My old oponent has managed to run up quite a few dwarfs this way in his
> Yak deck..... >>
>
>
> Can a Clone Token be sent to GL to be cloned? Is a clone token considered a
> runner for all asspects of the game, just without the ability to use gear?
>
> Sorry ,is this was asked before i missed it.

Hi,

first I`m OLAF and KRAMER(first name, last name).;)
I can accept to pay upkeep for cloned PR, but if I must do this I ask my self
whats the thing that make a PR to a PR, isn`t it the sum of hid deeds and if not
what is it? If it is the sum of his deeds, how can I clone the experience of a
human?
BTW I think it`s better to clone Skwraaaak.No upkeep, no longer anti social and
8/8(2 A).So I can build a Army of death bringer with no upkeep.

About your question.Yes, you can clone a clone(why not ?).

OLAF KRAMER
Message no. 18
From: q & a <maddox_prime@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:08:45 EDT
On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:39:01 +0200 "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
writes:

> <snip>
>I can accept to pay upkeep for cloned PR, but if I must do this I ask
>my self
>whats the thing that make a PR to a PR, isn`t it the sum of hid deeds
>and if not
>what is it? If it is the sum of his deeds, how can I clone the
>experience of a
>human?
>BTW I think it`s better to clone Skwraaaak.No upkeep, no longer anti
>social and
>8/8(2 A).So I can build a Army of death bringer with no upkeep.

Skraaaak.... Yah, that's a good choice.....

As to the "Why would they still be Prime?" Well, if you make an exact
copy of someone... (Clone) THet're not going to be thinking, "Hey, I'm
just some clone!" They're going to believe they're exactly the same as
the person who was cloned. Same life lived, same experiences, same
everything. SUre, they might have just walked out of the lab the week
before, but as far as they can recall, they've been everywhere, and done
everything their original has.

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Message no. 19
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:06:40 +0200
q & a schrieb:
> On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:39:01 +0200 "O.Kramer"
<Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
> writes:
>
> > <snip>
> >I can accept to pay upkeep for cloned PR, but if I must do this I ask
> >my self
> >whats the thing that make a PR to a PR, isn`t it the sum of hid deeds
> >and if not
> >what is it? If it is the sum of his deeds, how can I clone the
> >experience of a
> >human?
> >BTW I think it`s better to clone Skwraaaak.No upkeep, no longer anti
> >social and
> >8/8(2 A).So I can build a Army of death bringer with no upkeep.
>
> Skraaaak.... Yah, that's a good choice.....
>
> As to the "Why would they still be Prime?" Well, if you make an exact
> copy of someone... (Clone) THet're not going to be thinking, "Hey, I'm
> just some clone!" They're going to believe they're exactly the same as
> the person who was cloned. Same life lived, same experiences, same
> everything. SUre, they might have just walked out of the lab the week
> before, but as far as they can recall, they've been everywhere, and done
> everything their original has.
>

If they clone the memory of a runner, why he(the clone) can`t remember how to
find a contact(Dirk montgomory) or how to use a weapon or to recon ?
Message no. 20
From: Freak Finger <Freakfingr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:26:31 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-27 22:10:56 EDT, you write:

<< >I can accept to pay upkeep for cloned PR, but if I must do this I ask
>my self
>whats the thing that make a PR to a PR, isn`t it the sum of hid deeds
>and if not
>what is it? If it is the sum of his deeds, how can I clone the
>experience of a
>human?
>BTW I think it`s better to clone Skwraaaak.No upkeep, no longer anti
>social and
>8/8(2 A).So I can build a Army of death bringer with no upkeep.

Skraaaak.... Yah, that's a good choice.....

As to the "Why would they still be Prime?" Well, if you make an exact
copy of someone... (Clone) THet're not going to be thinking, "Hey, I'm
just some clone!" They're going to believe they're exactly the same as
the person who was cloned. Same life lived, same experiences, same
everything. SUre, they might have just walked out of the lab the week
before, but as far as they can recall, they've been everywhere, and done
everything their original has. >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

You both make very good points but perhaps it should be pointed out that
its a card game not a RPG. Somtimes thinking about how it would be in
"reality" isn't going to work and you just have to follow the wording on the
cards and use common sense on how the CARD GAME should work. Forget about
personnalitys and the memories that the runner should have and decide whats a
fair way for the card game to work.
Did this make any sense to anyone?
FreakFingr
Message no. 21
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:01:02 +0200
Freak Finger schrieb:
> In a message dated 98-09-27 22:10:56 EDT, you write:
>
> << >I can accept to pay upkeep for cloned PR, but if I must do this I ask
> >my self
> >whats the thing that make a PR to a PR, isn`t it the sum of hid deeds
> >and if not
> >what is it? If it is the sum of his deeds, how can I clone the
> >experience of a
> >human?
> >BTW I think it`s better to clone Skwraaaak.No upkeep, no longer anti
> >social and
> >8/8(2 A).So I can build a Army of death bringer with no upkeep.
>
> Skraaaak.... Yah, that's a good choice.....
>
> As to the "Why would they still be Prime?" Well, if you make an exact
> copy of someone... (Clone) THet're not going to be thinking, "Hey, I'm
> just some clone!" They're going to believe they're exactly the same as
> the person who was cloned. Same life lived, same experiences, same
> everything. SUre, they might have just walked out of the lab the week
> before, but as far as they can recall, they've been everywhere, and done
> everything their original has. >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> You both make very good points but perhaps it should be pointed out that
> its a card game not a RPG. Somtimes thinking about how it would be in
> "reality" isn't going to work and you just have to follow the wording on
the
> cards and use common sense on how the CARD GAME should work. Forget about
> personnalitys and the memories that the runner should have and decide whats a
> fair way for the card game to work.
> Did this make any sense to anyone?
> FreakFingr

I think its a fair way to say the PR lose his abillity so he is no longer a PR.

OLAF
Message no. 22
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:01:01 +0200
q & a schrieb:
> On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:39:01 +0200 "O.Kramer"
<Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
> writes:
>
> > <snip>
> >I can accept to pay upkeep for cloned PR, but if I must do this I ask
> >my self
> >whats the thing that make a PR to a PR, isn`t it the sum of hid deeds
> >and if not
> >what is it? If it is the sum of his deeds, how can I clone the
> >experience of a
> >human?
> >BTW I think it`s better to clone Skwraaaak.No upkeep, no longer anti
> >social and
> >8/8(2 A).So I can build a Army of death bringer with no upkeep.
>
> Skraaaak.... Yah, that's a good choice.....
>
> As to the "Why would they still be Prime?" Well, if you make an exact
> copy of someone... (Clone) THet're not going to be thinking, "Hey, I'm
> just some clone!" They're going to believe they're exactly the same as
> the person who was cloned. Same life lived, same experiences, same
> everything. SUre, they might have just walked out of the lab the week
> before, but as far as they can recall, they've been everywhere, and done
> everything their original has.
>
Look, my problem with this is, if you clone someone you take a piece of his
DNA(DNS) and rebuild his boddy.The problem is your memorys are not saved in your
DNA,your DNA is just the blueprint of your boddy. If they are use magic to clone
you they whoud be able to give you recon or the ability to kill elves(Torgo).
If they are thinking "I`m the original",why do a cloned Dirk montgonery not know
how to find a contact ?

OLAF
Message no. 23
From: Mo'ike Manawa <ManawaWolf@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:01:37 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-29 12:54:22 EDT, you write:

<< Look, my problem with this is, if you clone someone you take a piece of his
DNA(DNS) and rebuild his boddy.The problem is your memorys are not saved in
your
DNA,your DNA is just the blueprint of your boddy. If they are use magic to
clone
you they whoud be able to give you recon or the ability to kill elves(Torgo).
If they are thinking "I`m the original",why do a cloned Dirk montgonery not
know
how to find a contact ? >>

If I may add another slant to this, another perspective actually. I,
personally, play it as not having the upkeep. After all the trouble you have
to go through to get the clone, it's only a fair reward. However, back on
topic, which seems to be mostly philosophical anyway. It is not really that
the clone's think of themselves as "the original", but the fact that other
people would treat them that way. Other people do not know that this person
is a clone, and thus the clone can still go into the Elite Decker bar, when it
knows nothing about how a cyberdeck works ( Fast Jack ), or Elves would run
away from him, even though he has nothing against them ( Torgo ). It's simply
a matter of perspective on how you see the street index, or upkeep. Is it
that the character holds themselves that way, or because everyone else knows
that they hold themselves that way. Anyway, back to you chummers.
Message no. 24
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:33:19 +0200
Mo'ike Manawa schrieb:
> In a message dated 98-09-29 12:54:22 EDT, you write:
>
> << Look, my problem with this is, if you clone someone you take a piece of his
> DNA(DNS) and rebuild his boddy.The problem is your memorys are not saved in
> your
> DNA,your DNA is just the blueprint of your boddy. If they are use magic to
> clone
> you they whoud be able to give you recon or the ability to kill elves(Torgo).
> If they are thinking "I`m the original",why do a cloned Dirk montgonery
not
> know
> how to find a contact ? >>
>
> If I may add another slant to this, another perspective actually. I,
> personally, play it as not having the upkeep. After all the trouble you have
> to go through to get the clone, it's only a fair reward. However, back on
> topic, which seems to be mostly philosophical anyway. It is not really that
> the clone's think of themselves as "the original", but the fact that other
> people would treat them that way. Other people do not know that this person
> is a clone, and thus the clone can still go into the Elite Decker bar, when it
> knows nothing about how a cyberdeck works ( Fast Jack ), or Elves would run
> away from him, even though he has nothing against them ( Torgo ). It's simply
> a matter of perspective on how you see the street index, or upkeep. Is it
> that the character holds themselves that way, or because everyone else knows
> that they hold themselves that way. Anyway, back to you chummers.


Wisely words, nothing to add.

OLAF
Message no. 25
From: Freak Finger <Freakfingr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 23:50:48 EDT
<< >I can accept to pay upkeep for cloned PR, but if I must do this I ask
> >my self
> >whats the thing that make a PR to a PR, isn`t it the sum of hid deeds
> >and if not
> >what is it? If it is the sum of his deeds, how can I clone the
> >experience of a
> >human?
> >BTW I think it`s better to clone Skwraaaak.No upkeep, no longer anti
> >social and
> >8/8(2 A).So I can build a Army of death bringer with no upkeep.
>
> Skraaaak.... Yah, that's a good choice.....
>
> As to the "Why would they still be Prime?" Well, if you make an exact
> copy of someone... (Clone) THet're not going to be thinking, "Hey, I'm
> just some clone!" They're going to believe they're exactly the same as
> the person who was cloned. Same life lived, same experiences, same
> everything. SUre, they might have just walked out of the lab the week
> before, but as far as they can recall, they've been everywhere, and done
> everything their original has. >>

In a message dated 98-09-29 11:46:19 EDT, you write:

<< think its a fair way to say the PR lose his abillity so he is no longer a
PR.

OLAF >>
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. The runner has lost all the abilities that make him special. Hes
only left with the skills and that dosn't seem justify an upkeep cost, But i
would still like to get an official ruling from FASA.
Has anyone had any luck getting rules clarification from them lately. In
the past they would always answer the questions i e-mailed them but lately i
get no replys.
FreakFingr
Message no. 26
From: Gunnar Lundquist <OneWay919@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:06:39 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-29 23:55:52 EDT, you write:

<< << >I can accept to pay upkeep for cloned PR, but if I must do this I
ask
> >my self
> >whats the thing that make a PR to a PR, isn`t it the sum of hid deeds
> >and if not
> >what is it? If it is the sum of his deeds, how can I clone the
> >experience of a
> >human?
> >BTW I think it`s better to clone Skwraaaak.No upkeep, no longer anti
> >social and
> >8/8(2 A).So I can build a Army of death bringer with no upkeep.
>
> Skraaaak.... Yah, that's a good choice.....
>
> As to the "Why would they still be Prime?" Well, if you make an exact
> copy of someone... (Clone) THet're not going to be thinking, "Hey, I'm
> just some clone!" They're going to believe they're exactly the same as
> the person who was cloned. Same life lived, same experiences, same
> everything. SUre, they might have just walked out of the lab the week
> before, but as far as they can recall, they've been everywhere, and done
> everything their original has. >>

In a message dated 98-09-29 11:46:19 EDT, you write:

<< think its a fair way to say the PR lose his abillity so he is no longer a
PR.

OLAF >>
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. The runner has lost all the abilities that make him special. Hes
only left with the skills and that dosn't seem justify an upkeep cost, But i
would still like to get an official ruling from FASA.
Has anyone had any luck getting rules clarification from them lately. In
the past they would always answer the questions i e-mailed them but lately i
get no replys.
FreakFingr

>>

I disagree....this is why
If lord Torgo were to walk up to you, and break your leg for the fun of it,
and then 10 minutes later he walked up to you, and did it again, and if you
had the presense of mind to look up.... would you be able to tell me which is
the clone or would you just cry to the lonestars when they showed up and tell
them Lord Torgo broke your legs

makes you think don't it

OneWay......MyWay
Message no. 27
From: Freak Finger <Freakfingr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:13:25 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-30 01:07:50 EDT, you write:

<< I disagree....this is why
If lord Torgo were to walk up to you, and break your leg for the fun of it,
and then 10 minutes later he walked up to you, and did it again, and if you
had the presense of mind to look up.... would you be able to tell me which is
the clone or would you just cry to the lonestars when they showed up and tell
them Lord Torgo broke your legs

makes you think don't it

OneWay......MyWay >>


Its not a RPG. Its a card game. In the card game not paying seems fair.
Real life scenarios have nothing to with it in this situation. In the
situation you state you are correct. For the purpose of a card game it seems
fair to say the clone is not the same.
Freakfingr
Message no. 28
From: Gunnar Lundquist <OneWay919@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:51:22 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-30 01:14:43 EDT, you write:

<<
makes you think don't it

OneWay......MyWay >>


Its not a RPG. Its a card game. In the card game not paying seems fair.
Real life scenarios have nothing to with it in this situation. In the
situation you state you are correct. For the purpose of a card game it seems
fair to say the clone is not the same.
Freakfingr
>>

it's all moot anyway cause you can't have 2 PRs out that are the same with out
copycat syndrome ....and as for it not being an RPG I don't think that's valid
...you must have a basis for your thought pattern and it is derived from an
RPG so the logical thing is to think of it in these terms

OneWay......MyWay
Message no. 29
From: Mark Peterson <talos187@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:42:59 -0700
Here's some logical rambling.

Honestly, a clone is just like another person, like an identical twin.
The genetics lab is doubtlessly altering the cloned DNA to hyperage, to
mature overnight. Thus the insta-clone. Since the clone's a veritable
newborn, it doesn't have the memories, nor the skills/abilities of the
original. And I would say the upkeep cost is definitely an ability, so
it doesn't transfer. The armor should, even if it doesn't quite make
logical sense, but the card seems to indicate that it does.

Btw -- anybody ever cloned a Static? Anybody?
--

peace be thy path,

talos landone
Message no. 30
From: "O.Kramer" <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:59:59 +0200
Gunnar Lundquist schrieb:
> In a message dated 98-09-30 01:14:43 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> makes you think don't it
>
> OneWay......MyWay >>
>
>
> Its not a RPG. Its a card game. In the card game not paying seems fair.
> Real life scenarios have nothing to with it in this situation. In the
> situation you state you are correct. For the purpose of a card game it seems
> fair to say the clone is not the same.
> Freakfingr
> >>
>
> it's all moot anyway cause you can't have 2 PRs out that are the same with out
> copycat syndrome ....and as for it not being an RPG I don't think that's valid
> ...you must have a basis for your thought pattern and it is derived from an
>
> RPG so the logical thing is to think of it in these terms
>
> OneWay......MyWay

Comeone dont take the RPG as basis for the TCG, if you want to do this you must
rebuild all the rules of the TCG (i.e. more than 4 Cards of the same thing and
every runner is unique).If you take it as basis for the TCG tell me one think
whats the diverence between a Torgo clone that break you second leg and a Troll
with a cosmetic modification that break your leg ? I think for you there is no
diverence both are Torgo lookalikes, so why I should pay for the clone any upkeep
if I look at him with the RPG as basis.

OLAF
Message no. 31
From: Freak Finger <Freakfingr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 23:42:56 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-30 01:52:34 EDT, you write:

<< ....and as for it not being an RPG I don't think that's valid
...you must have a basis for your thought pattern and it is derived from an
RPG so the logical thing is to think of it in these terms
>>


Its obvious that it is based on the RPG , but at some point that comparison
has to stop and game mechanics have to take over. Take for example the Prc-
Yellowjacket. If your runner with wired reflexes uses it he dosn't roll to do
damage twice because the text for the Yellowjacket says no other gear cards
can be used. That dosn't make any sence in your RPG type thinking but it's the
way it should be played for the sake of a well balanced game. The text says so
and its makes for a good and balanced card game. The game should continue to
draw on the RPG for ideas but at some point common scence says that thinking
has to stop to make a good well balanced card game.
Freakfinger
Message no. 32
From: David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Repeat ?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:13:33 -0700
Freak Finger <Freakfingr@***.COM> wrote:
> Its obvious that it is based on the RPG , but at some point that
comparison
>has to stop and game mechanics have to take over. Take for example the Prc-
>Yellowjacket. If your runner with wired reflexes uses it he dosn't roll to do
>damage twice because the text for the Yellowjacket says no other gear cards
>can be used. That dosn't make any sence in your RPG type thinking but it's
the
>way it should be played for the sake of a well balanced game. The text
says so
>and its makes for a good and balanced card game. The game should continue to
>draw on the RPG for ideas but at some point common scence says that thinking
>has to stop to make a good well balanced card game.

Actually, not being able to use wired reflexes makes perfect sense in RPG
terms. When a rigger is jacked into a vehicle, he doesn't get any bonuses
from physical enhancements just as a decked doesn't get those same benefits
in the matrix.

Still, I agree that there is a difference between the RPG and the TCG, and
while the TCG should draw ideas from the RPG, in the interest in game
balance the TCG cannot exactly match the RPG.

David

Further Reading

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