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Message no. 1
From: Jeffrey Nuremburg <xanatos@********.NET>
Subject: Riots and tapped Runners in the safehouse
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:40:27 -0500
> I run a mage deck and the one thing that has damaged me extremely is Riots,
> this will kill runners with a mage deck instantly, how do you counter it?

I saw a bunch of replies to this post but not one person mentioned THE
PREMIERE ANTI-RIOT card, BullDog Van. (IMHO) Anyway, the group I am playing
in (a total of around 10 different people), almost everyone was playing with
4 riots in their decks at one point. We've had games were there have been
serious riot fests, 6 - 7 in a row. Bulldog van is a serious deterrent at
certain times, but as you all know your Runners have to be unturned.
Avoiding riots takes a bit of luck (and maybe a luck-o-the-irish/Luck
Wabbit's Foot) and some knowledge of your opponents. Balance your deck
against them with cards like BullDog van and some armor. A single point of
armor will keep a runner with 4 body alive through 3 consecutive riots. You
can also attempt to use a bodyguard to keep those smaller guys alive.

As for the tapped runners in the safehouse, I have to agree with Rob on this
one, page 14 of the rulebook states:

A card referred to as "present" may be in one of three situations.
1) On a shadowrun. . .<etc>
2) In the safehouse. This includes all UNTURNED Runners currently in the
safehouse.
3) In Runner-against-Runner combat. . . <etc>

This pretty much clears it up for me (now I have to break it to the group). :)

Also, here is a question. This has probably been asked about a billion
times but I want to get a single answer:

Can a turned Runner initiate a Bar Fight? Can Bar Fight and Wanted targer a
turned Runner?

Thanks all.
--
Jeffrey Nuremburg / Assistant System Administrator
xanatos@********.net
cgiguy@********.net - All CGI related requests

"I've been an atheist - I had found it difficult to
have religios beliefs and scientific ones, but I've
accepted that I have a duality - there's a human
way of interacting with people but also a mechanistic
explanation of what people are and how they work."

- Rodney Brooks, Director of MIT's AI Lab
Message no. 2
From: Crane <jack9@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Riots and tapped Runners in the safehouse
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:11:05 -0800
>PREMIERE ANTI-RIOT card, BullDog Van. (IMHO)
And in my opinion too!

>As for the tapped runners in the safehouse, I have to agree with Rob on this
>one, page 14 of the rulebook states:
>
>A card referred to as "present" may be in one of three situations.
>1) On a shadowrun. . .<etc>
>2) In the safehouse. This includes all UNTURNED Runners currently in the
>safehouse.
>3) In Runner-against-Runner combat. . . <etc>
>
>This pretty much clears it up for me (now I have to break it to the
group). :)

Well, there is the point that it mentions it INCLUDES UNTURNED runners IN
THE SAFEHOUSE. Almost stating that there can be TURNED runners IN THE
SAFEHOUSE (as they are not Excluded).

<soapbox/>
I do not think FASA had this confusion in mind, I'm sure they had some
definitive definition, but as for now are undecided or waiting to see where
this discussion goes.
</soapbox>

The fact that on page 13 the rulebook says
- The Safehouse : <snip> Shadowruns take place outside the safehouse.
and that you go "visit" some locations, there are no more references to
where a runner can be. I still contend that the safehouse should be where
your runners are when not on a Shadowrun (or visiting a location). It seems
you are either in/not in the safehouse or on a SR, this is flawed given the
importance of being "Present" and the following examples:

On page 38 Indirect Fire-
Indirect Fire allows a runner to use a weapon to assist a shadowrun without
leaving the safehouse. Turn the runner holding the weapon....<snip> Am I to
believe that first sentence was a joke?

If I riot and have Knuckles (A) protect the ice queen, then another riots
comes around, am I to think that Knuckles (B) cannot protect Knuckles (A)
because he went outside? (far?)

If I have 3 deckers go to fuchi together they are not present with each other?

If I turn 3 runners (1 at a time) to go to the Iron Lung, they are not
present with each other? (has anyone here played the RPG? one
character/runner never goes to a bar/club/whatever alone!)
Message no. 3
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Riots and tapped Runners in the safehouse
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:10:28 -0800
Jeffrey Nuremburg wrote:

> I saw a bunch of replies to this post but not one person mentioned THE
> PREMIERE ANTI-RIOT card, BullDog Van.

Given that a Decker or Mage-based deck is going to have many Runners
turning each round
(Recon, innate abilities, and so on), the Bulldog Van is an expensive,
but very unuseful toy
in that type of deck.

And, to nip one other comment in the bud: Bullet Barrier is also
ineffective ["(A1) until *end of combat* to user and all Runners *on
shadowrun* with user."]

Armor Spell works. Guard, if you accept turned Runners in the
safehouse, also works. And, of course, all the normal Gear/Armor cards.

> As for the tapped runners in the safehouse, I have to agree with Rob on this
> one, page 14 of the rulebook states:

> A card referred to as "present" may be in one of three situations.
> 1) On a shadowrun. . .<etc>
> 2) In the safehouse. This includes all unturned Runners currently in the
> safehouse.
> 3) In Runner-against-Runner combat. . . <etc>

Your emphasis is misplaced: A card that is present may be .. 2) In the
safehouse. "Includes" can be looked at as inclusive, not exclusive.

GAQ returns a Runner to... the safehouse. Sim-sensation returns Runners
to the safehouse. And so on.

Sorry to say, but I haven't seen anything really enlightening on this
topic in days, probably weeks. Just a little entrenchment.

(The more we talk about this, the muddier the waters get, it seems.
Does the safehouse work, fictionally? Considering that you're
apparently having Bar Fights and Riots in your living room, so to speak,
it really isn't that "safe" a house.)

> Can a turned Runner initiate a Bar Fight? Can Bar Fight and Wanted targer a
> turned Runner?

Yes, a turned Runner can initiate a Bar Fight. The card reads "choose a
Runner", not "choose an unturned Runner". Both Bar Fight and Wanted can
target turned Runners; neither card specifies a specfic status or trait
of their victim.


-Mb
Message no. 4
From: MLoki <MLoki@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Riots and tapped Runners in the safehouse
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:06:37 EST
In a message dated 97-12-10 01:12:41 EST, you write:

<< Also, here is a question. This has probably been asked about a billion
times but I want to get a single answer:

Can a turned Runner initiate a Bar Fight? Can Bar Fight and Wanted targer a
turned Runner?

Thanks all. >>

Actually refering once again to the all comprehensive rule book. <snicker> It
says that "only unturned runners may voluntarily enter combat with other
runners" I would assume that this includes candidates for bar fights and any
runner wanting to go cash in that bounty for wanted.

Further Reading

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!