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Message no. 1
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Several Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:29:35 -0500
Several questions came up during play this weekend.

* Probably a dumb question, but I just want verification:
Can you benefit from the armor bonus you get from either
the Yamaha Rapier or the Harley Scorpion against an
Indoor Challenge?

* If you have the special card 'Ancients' in play, and your
Elf Ganger (just as an aside, why are there only 2 Elf
Gangers?) has a bike, do you get the armor bonus from
the Ancients against an Indoor Challenge (if the answer
to the above is "no")?

* I know this will sound like a dumb question, but this is kind
of ambiguous:
The Yamaha Rapier says that it's armor is not cumulative
with any other Armor. The Ancients says your Elf Gangers
get +2/+0 (A+2). If your Elf Ganger has a Rapier, does he
get the armor bonus provided for by the Ancients?

* You control a Bulldog Van. In a Bar Fight combat, does
your runner get the armor bonus provided by the BDV?

* Can your mage use his Armor Spell in response to a
Riots that has just been played?

* Can you play "State of Confusion" in response to a
Riots that has just been played?
(my answer was "no" to both of the above)

thnx,
Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:14:31 PDT
Hoi,

>Several questions came up during play this weekend.
>
>* Probably a dumb question, but I just want verification:
>Can you benefit from the armor bonus you get from either
>the Yamaha Rapier or the Harley Scorpion against an
>Indoor Challenge?

I would say no. The card says it cannot be used against an indoor
challenge.

>
>* If you have the special card 'Ancients' in play, and your
>Elf Ganger (just as an aside, why are there only 2 Elf
>Gangers?) has a bike, do you get the armor bonus from
>the Ancients against an Indoor Challenge (if the answer
>to the above is "no")?

I also have found the fact that there are only two elf gangers a bit
annoying... anyway... I would on this account say yes. The ancients
says you get the bonus (A+2) if that runner is equiped with an bike.
However I would still say that the bike armor does not work on an indoor
challenge. In this case an ancient with a bike would have an armor of 2
against an indoor challege. And have an armor rating of 3 against all
other challenges.

>* I know this will sound like a dumb question, but this is kind
>of ambiguous:
>The Yamaha Rapier says that it's armor is not cumulative
>with any other Armor. The Ancients says your Elf Gangers
>get +2/+0 (A+2). If your Elf Ganger has a Rapier, does he
>get the armor bonus provided for by the Ancients?

Yes... the bike is (A1)... this is not cumulitive with built in runner
armor. They are always listed as (A#). However if any armor card says
armor (A+#)... that armor is always cumulitive with any other armor
source, even ones listed as (A#).

>* You control a Bulldog Van. In a Bar Fight combat, does
>your runner get the armor bonus provided by the BDV?

No, because the bulldog van protects runners in the safehouse. All
runner vs. runner combat is outside the safehouse.

>* Can your mage use his Armor Spell in response to a
>Riots that has just been played?

I would say yes... only because I like mages and the like and the fact
that you can turn any program or spell while in the safehouse and it
will work.

>* Can you play "State of Confusion" in response to a
>Riots that has just been played?
>(my answer was "no" to both of the above)

No... riots does not target any one runner. It attacks everybody on the
table.

>Sorrow

Hope some of this helps.


*** Knife Sharpens on Stone... Man Sharpens on Man ***
*** - Tao ***

Jayden Stormwalker
Donald Arganbright


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Message no. 3
From: Felix Hoefert <FHoefert@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:13:40 +0200
Sorrow wrote:
>
> Several questions came up during play this weekend.
>
> * Probably a dumb question, but I just want verification:
> Can you benefit from the armor bonus you get from either
> the Yamaha Rapier or the Harley Scorpion against an
> Indoor Challenge?

No
>
> * If you have the special card 'Ancients' in play, and your
> Elf Ganger (just as an aside, why are there only 2 Elf
> Gangers?) has a bike, do you get the armor bonus from
> the Ancients against an Indoor Challenge (if the answer
> to the above is "no")?

You donīt get the bonus. Since bikes are unusable Indoor, the bonus
doesnīt apply.
>
> * I know this will sound like a dumb question, but this is kind
> of ambiguous:
> The Yamaha Rapier says that it's armor is not cumulative
> with any other Armor. The Ancients says your Elf Gangers
> get +2/+0 (A+2). If your Elf Ganger has a Rapier, does he
> get the armor bonus provided for by the Ancients?

IMHO no.
>
> * You control a Bulldog Van. In a Bar Fight combat, does
> your runner get the armor bonus provided by the BDV?

The runner turns for combat, plus combat doesnīt take place in the
safehouse, so thereīs no help from Bully.
>
> * Can your mage use his Armor Spell in response to a
> Riots that has just been played?

No. Thereīs not a fight.
>
> * Can you play "State of Confusion" in response to a
> Riots that has just been played?
> (my answer was "no" to both of the above)

No SoC, since Riots donīt target any specific Runner or player.

Felix
Message no. 4
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:26:13 -0500
>> * I know this will sound like a dumb question, but this is kind
>> of ambiguous:
>> The Yamaha Rapier says that it's armor is not cumulative
>> with any other Armor. The Ancients says your Elf Gangers
>> get +2/+0 (A+2). If your Elf Ganger has a Rapier, does he
>> get the armor bonus provided for by the Ancients?
>IMHO no.

I'm not saying either way (since I did ask the question initially),
and I'm certainly not discounting your opinion (especially since
you state it as such), but if this is true, then it would make "The
Ancients" the most worthless Gang HQ printed. There are only
2 Elf Gangers and only 1 Bike (a total of 12 cards max) that
would usable in conjunction with it.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Apone <mpcheval@********.FR>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 04:35:49 +0200
> >> * I know this will sound like a dumb question, but this is kind
> >> of ambiguous:
> >> The Yamaha Rapier says that it's armor is not cumulative
> >> with any other Armor. The Ancients says your Elf Gangers
> >> get +2/+0 (A+2). If your Elf Ganger has a Rapier, does he
> >> get the armor bonus provided for by the Ancients?
> >IMHO no.
>
> I'm not saying either way (since I did ask the question initially),
> and I'm certainly not discounting your opinion (especially since
> you state it as such), but if this is true, then it would make "The
> Ancients" the most worthless Gang HQ printed. There are only
> 2 Elf Gangers and only 1 Bike (a total of 12 cards max) that
> would usable in conjunction with it.
>
Here's another point of view:

With the Ancient HQ in play you pay 1 nuyen for deploying a
bike so for 4 Harley and 4 Rapier that's 8 nuyens, the price
of a Gore Tusk.

With the +2/+2 (A+2) bonus the Harley gives a final +3/+2
(A3). And you can still add some Armor.
Withe the same bonus the Rapier gives a final +2/+2 (A1).

You can play a Nerps! to get a 5th Harley.

The 2 Elf Ganger are Viper and Redline (4/3 runners both of
them)
With a Harley that's a 7/5 (A3) runner.
With a Rapier that's a 6/5 (A1) runner.

Through the Initiation objective you can bring any other Elf
to become a ganger (A "ganger" Drake with a Harley is a 7/7
(A3) runner).

What exactly do you find worthless ?
1 nuyen to get (A3) and +3/+2 ? Hey a full heavy Armor cost
6 nuyens and it's only (A2).
Well, Elves don't need Heavy Armor...

so long
Apone




--
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You may bury my body down by the highway side,
So my old evil spirit can catch a Greyhound bus n'ride."
Robert Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: "<Jerry Qualls>" <Freakfingr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:31:08 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-14 16:16:14 EDT, you write:

<< >* Can your mage use his Armor Spell in response to a
>Riots that has just been played?

I would say yes... only because I like mages and the like and the fact
that you can turn any program or spell while in the safehouse and it
will work. >>


I would say no...The Armor spell says it would last untill the end of
combat and Riots is not a combat situation.
Message no. 7
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:50:51 -0500
>With the Ancient HQ in play you pay 1 nuyen for deploying a
>bike so for 4 Harley and 4 Rapier that's 8 nuyens, the price
>of a Gore Tusk.

Except that you have to draw them first. They are worthless,
and it doesn't matter if you have 50 nuyen, if they are still in
your draw pile.

>You can play a Nerps! to get a 5th Harley.

A rare promo.
You can't even get them from FASA anymore.

>Through the Initiation objective you can bring any other Elf
>to become a ganger (A "ganger" Drake with a Harley is a 7/7
>(A3) runner).

Yes, but the Initiation has it's own problems. You pay the nuyen
to bring out the gangers/runners, to bring out the bikes only to
get toasted by some indoor challenge where you can't use the
armor bonus from the bikes (and possibly, the bonus from the
Ancients).

>What exactly do you find worthless ?
>1 nuyen to get (A3) and +3/+2 ?

Actually, 4 initially. Ancients cost 3.

>Hey a full heavy Armor cost 6 nuyens and it's only (A2).

Yeah, but it can be used against Indoor challenges. The armor
granted by The Ancients and the Bikes are very specific in use.
(Which leads me to ask, can you use the bikes against a
Miscelaneous <sp> challenge that doesn't specify it is Indoor?)

It is a culmination of all the above, if you can't use the armor
provided by the Rapier with the bonus from the Ancients, why
I would find the Ancients to be useless. You are already very
limited to who/what you can use and when. Limit even further
and it's wallpaper.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:37:19 -0700
Apone <mpcheval@********.FR> wrote:
>With the Ancient HQ in play you pay 1 nuyen for deploying a
>bike so for 4 Harley and 4 Rapier that's 8 nuyens, the price
>of a Gore Tusk.
>
>With the +2/+2 (A+2) bonus the Harley gives a final +3/+2
>(A3). And you can still add some Armor.
>Withe the same bonus the Rapier gives a final +2/+2 (A1).
>
Can you choose to use the Ancients' armor bonus instead of the Rapier's
bonus? That would mean a total bonus of +2/+2 (A2).

David
Message no. 9
From: Apone <mpcheval@********.FR>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:12:38 +0200
David Reis wrote:

> Can you choose to use the Ancients' armor bonus instead of the Rapier's
> bonus? That would mean a total bonus of +2/+2 (A2).

I'd say no (of course I can be wrong).
You need to use the bike to get the bonus from Ancients HQ.
If you use the bike then you'll get the bonus from the bike, which is Armor
(1) not cumulative with other Armor.
So when you apply the HQ bonus you only get the +2/+2 'cause you can't
cumulate both Armor.
That does not seem to be a matter of choice.

In fact, I don't find this really convincing, but that's how I figure it
could work...

so long
Apone

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You may bury my body down by the highway side,
So my old evil spirit can catch a Greyhound bus n'ride."
Robert Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Several Questions
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:10:33 PDT
Hoi,

>> Can you choose to use the Ancients' armor bonus instead of the
Rapier's bonus? That would mean a total bonus of +2/+2 (A2).
>
>I'd say no (of course I can be wrong).
>You need to use the bike to get the bonus from Ancients HQ.
>If you use the bike then you'll get the bonus from the bike, which is
>Armor (1) not cumulative with other Armor.
>So when you apply the HQ bonus you only get the +2/+2 'cause you >can't
cumulate both Armor.
>That does not seem to be a matter of choice.
>
>In fact, I don't find this really convincing, but that's how I figure
>it could work...
>
>so long
>Apone

I think that that problem here is people are forgeting how armor is
supposed to work. Lets say, still using this example of ancients,
rapiers, and armor, that for some odd reason I have a elf ganger who
ends up with 3/4 (A2) (don't ask me how... it just did). I give that
elf a rapier that also has (A1). At this point the elf still only has
an armor of 2. Because armor denoted as (A#) is not cumulitive, you
cannot add the (A2) and the (A1), the only thing you can do is use the
higher value. Now lets say I play an ancients HQ. the card says all
elven gangers with bikes recieve a +2/+2 (A+2) bonus. Now my elven
ganger with rapier is an 5/6 (A4). The (A+2) is cumulitive with other
armor even those denoted as (A#). However I can only take the higher of
the (A1) and (A2) to add the bonus to because (A1) and (A2) are not
cumulive together.

Here are some small examples. Assume the following cards have the armor
rating on them as noted and are all stacked on one runner.

(A2), (A1), (A+1), (A+1), = total armor possible is 4
(A+2), (A1), (A1), (A1), = total armor possible is 3
(A+1), (A+2), (A3), (A+1) = total armor possible is 7
(A1), (A3), (A+2) = total armor possible is 5

Hope this isn't all that confusing.

*** Knife Sharpens on Stone... Man Sharpens on Man ***
*** - Tao ***

Jayden Stormwalker
Donald Arganbright


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