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Message no. 1
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: SoC
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:03:08 -0700
Ok, here's some posers I came up with on State of Confusion (SoC).

First the card text:


State of Confusion / Stinger
Cost: 2¥
You may choose a new, legal target for a Special card just played.

I got to thinking of the fun ways this could affect Nerps!

Nerps!
Cost: 3¥
Unique. Choose a target Gear card (except Spirits and Drones) and
treat Nerps! as an exact duplicate of that card.

Tony goes to Nerps! a copy of Muscle Replacement for Skwaaaaaark only
to find Nerps! is a copy of his Glitz's Walther Palm Pistol instead. :o)

Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have any
Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for when he
can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?

Same type of scenerio except I know Tony doesn't have any Mages in the
deck so I target Nerps on my Tempest's Combat Fetishes. Does Tony just
discard the Nerps in this case, as he has no practical way to use the
CF copy?

Ok, a different twist on SoC. Sudden Goblinization (SG).

Sudden Goblinization / Stinger
Cost: 2¥
Target Human Runner is transformed into an Ork or troll (owner of
Sudden Goblinization chooses). Modify the target Runner's Threat
Rating as follows: Ork: +1/+1, Troll: +2/+2 (A+1) and target Runner
loses all skills.

Tony is wanting to beef up Turbo a bit, and tosses out SG while saying
that Turbo is monkeying-out and becoming an ork. I think it'd be more
interesting a different way. If I use SoC on his SG, can I target
H-man instead and make him a troll (thus taking his skills)? Is the
choice of race part of the targetting of the card, or since Tony had
already said it was to make Turbo an ork as the card is coming out, is
the race already locked in? (Potential speed/slap-fest issue.)

Opinions? Creeds? Manifestos?

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 4/6/98




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Message no. 2
From: Gumbyflex1 <Gumbyflex1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:30:12 EDT
In a message dated 98-04-10 16:12:20 EDT, you write:

<< First the card text:


State of Confusion / Stinger
Cost: 2¥
You may choose a new, legal target for a Special card just played.

I got to thinking of the fun ways this could affect Nerps!

Nerps!
Cost: 3¥
Unique. Choose a target Gear card (except Spirits and Drones) and
treat Nerps! as an exact duplicate of that card.

Tony goes to Nerps! a copy of Muscle Replacement for Skwaaaaaark only
to find Nerps! is a copy of his Glitz's Walther Palm Pistol instead. :o)

Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have any
Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for when he
can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?

Same type of scenerio except I know Tony doesn't have any Mages in the
deck so I target Nerps on my Tempest's Combat Fetishes. Does Tony just
discard the Nerps in this case, as he has no practical way to use the
CF copy?

i wouuld say that your target on the nerps actually is who the nerps goes on,
so instead of giving him tempest's combat fettishes, you would have to give a
runner a muscle replacement, as long as you have a non magical runner out on
your side, your opponent doesnt end up with the muscle rep at all.

Ok, a different twist on SoC. Sudden Goblinization (SG).

Sudden Goblinization / Stinger
Cost: 2¥
Target Human Runner is transformed into an Ork or troll (owner of
Sudden Goblinization chooses). Modify the target Runner's Threat
Rating as follows: Ork: +1/+1, Troll: +2/+2 (A+1) and target Runner
loses all skills.

Tony is wanting to beef up Turbo a bit, and tosses out SG while saying
that Turbo is monkeying-out and becoming an ork. I think it'd be more
interesting a different way. If I use SoC on his SG, can I target
H-man instead and make him a troll (thus taking his skills)? Is the
choice of race part of the targetting of the card, or since Tony had
already said it was to make Turbo an ork as the card is coming out, is
the race already locked in? (Potential speed/slap-fest issue.)

>>
here also i would have to say that you are just rechoosing the reciprent of
the special, not how the special is being played (sorta like a deflection in
magic).

-J
Message no. 3
From: JD <germany@*****************.COM>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:31:33 -0600
-

>Ok, here's some posers I came up with on State of Confusion (SoC).
>
>First the card text:
>
>
>State of Confusion / Stinger
>Cost: 2¥
>You may choose a new, legal target for a Special card just played.
>
>I got to thinking of the fun ways this could affect Nerps!
>
>Nerps!
>Cost: 3¥
>Unique. Choose a target Gear card (except Spirits and Drones) and
>treat Nerps! as an exact duplicate of that card.
>
<snip>
>Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
>Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
>to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have any
>Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for when he
>can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?
>
If Nerps can be considered an R&D dept. who has instructions to reverse
engineer something (exact duplicate), then it is an example of screwed up
paperwork. The engineers come out of the lab with a copy of the RD program
only to find out that someone sent the paperwork for the Muscle Rep to the
wrong place.

Another analogy: Spellcasting. The mage is copying an item and when he
gets to the item in the spell, he says the wrong words ... oops. It is too
late now. That is what being Confused is all about.

As for being able to keep the card for future use? I think that it must be
discarded. The card has already been played. If no one can use the card,
it is forfeited.

>Same type of scenerio except I know Tony doesn't have any Mages in the
>deck so I target Nerps on my Tempest's Combat Fetishes. Does Tony just
>discard the Nerps in this case, as he has no practical way to use the
>CF copy?
>
As above.

>Ok, a different twist on SoC. Sudden Goblinization (SG).
>
>Sudden Goblinization / Stinger
>Cost: 2¥
>Target Human Runner is transformed into an Ork or troll (owner of
>Sudden Goblinization chooses). Modify the target Runner's Threat
>Rating as follows: Ork: +1/+1, Troll: +2/+2 (A+1) and target Runner
>loses all skills.
>
>Tony is wanting to beef up Turbo a bit, and tosses out SG while saying
>that Turbo is monkeying-out and becoming an ork. I think it'd be more
>interesting a different way. If I use SoC on his SG, can I target
>H-man instead and make him a troll (thus taking his skills)? Is the
>choice of race part of the targetting of the card, or since Tony had
>already said it was to make Turbo an ork as the card is coming out, is
>the race already locked in? (Potential speed/slap-fest issue.)
>
Using the spellcasting analogy, the race would have already been chosen by
the first player, it is only the target that changes.

Jon Doud
germany@*****************.com
Message no. 4
From: JD <germany@*****************.COM>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:50:31 -0600
>In a message dated 98-04-10 16:12:20 EDT, you write:
>
><< First the card text:
>
>
> State of Confusion / Stinger
> Cost: 2¥
> You may choose a new, legal target for a Special card just played.
>
> I got to thinking of the fun ways this could affect Nerps!
>
> Nerps!
> Cost: 3¥
> Unique. Choose a target Gear card (except Spirits and Drones) and
> treat Nerps! as an exact duplicate of that card.
>
> Tony goes to Nerps! a copy of Muscle Replacement for Skwaaaaaark only
> to find Nerps! is a copy of his Glitz's Walther Palm Pistol instead. :o)
>
> Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
> Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
> to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have any
> Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for when he
> can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?
>
> Same type of scenerio except I know Tony doesn't have any Mages in the
> deck so I target Nerps on my Tempest's Combat Fetishes. Does Tony just
> discard the Nerps in this case, as he has no practical way to use the
> CF copy?
>
>i wouuld say that your target on the nerps actually is who the nerps goes
on,
>so instead of giving him tempest's combat fettishes, you would have to give
a
>runner a muscle replacement, as long as you have a non magical runner out
on
>your side, your opponent doesnt end up with the muscle rep at all.
>


It would depend. You have two targets in a Nerps! card. One: the runner it
is played on, as you suggest. Two: the targeted Gear card, as was
previously suggested.

Being confused can cause many problems. Just look at the confusion the card
has brought to the rules of the game alone. I think the overall answer is
that when someone is confused -- anything can happen.

Jon Doud
germany@*****************.com
Message no. 5
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:58:39 EST
> Ok, here's some posers I came up with on State of Confusion (SoC).
> You may choose a new, legal target for a Special card just played.
...
> Unique. Choose a target Gear card (except Spirits and Drones) and
> treat Nerps! as an exact duplicate of that card.
>
> Tony goes to Nerps! a copy of Muscle Replacement for Skwaaaaaark
> only to find Nerps! is a copy of his Glitz's Walther Palm Pistol
> instead. :o)

Hmm. Because Gear isn't targeted, I'd have to agree with you that
you select the target Gear card. (Unlike several others apparently)

> Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
> Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
> to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have
> any Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for
> when he can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?

Tuck: No, as it had to have been played for SoC to have been used.
Does it stay out then? Yes, as a Decker who is Goblinized loses all
skills, but can keep decking gear. Thus, Skwaaark was a valid user
of the gear when it was played. Once it is played, it stays out
regardless of the condition of the runner. thus, SoC can render
Nerps useless (although the new Gear can be traded!)

> Same type of scenerio except I know Tony doesn't have any Mages in
> the deck so I target Nerps on my Tempest's Combat Fetishes. Does
> Tony just discard the Nerps in this case, as he has no practical way
> to use the CF copy?

See above. Whomever tony was going to enhance gets a CF. Useless,
but they've got it. (Scatterbrains perhaps?)

> Ok, a different twist on SoC. Sudden Goblinization (SG).

I'm feeling wise. Bring it on! :)

> Target Human Runner is transformed into an Ork or troll (owner of
> Sudden Goblinization chooses). Modify the target Runner's Threat
> Rating as follows: Ork: +1/+1, Troll: +2/+2 (A+1) and target Runner
> loses all skills.
>
> Tony is wanting to beef up Turbo a bit, and tosses out SG while
> saying that Turbo is monkeying-out and becoming an ork. I think it'd
> be more interesting a different way. If I use SoC on his SG, can I
> target H-man instead and make him a troll (thus taking his skills)?
> Is the choice of race part of the targetting of the card, or since
> Tony had already said it was to make Turbo an ork as the card is
> coming out, is the race already locked in? (Potential
> speed/slap-fest issue.)

Actually, it doesn't matter when the race gets "locked" in, since
Tony is still the "owner" of SG. (regardless of where it ends up).

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 6
From: Phil Jaros <chakan@****.PYROTECHNICS.COM>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:13:06 -0500
Loki wrote:
> State of Confusion / Stinger
> Cost: 2¥
> You may choose a new, legal target for a Special card just played.
>
> I got to thinking of the fun ways this could affect Nerps!
>
> Nerps!
> Cost: 3¥
> Unique. Choose a target Gear card (except Spirits and Drones) and
> treat Nerps! as an exact duplicate of that card.
>
> Tony goes to Nerps! a copy of Muscle Replacement for Skwaaaaaark only
> to find Nerps! is a copy of his Glitz's Walther Palm Pistol instead. :o)
>
> Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
> Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
> to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have any
> Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for when he
> can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?

I'ld say that the card would be discarded, as there is no where to legally
play it at the time it was payed for....

> Ok, a different twist on SoC. Sudden Goblinization (SG).
>
> Sudden Goblinization / Stinger
> Cost: 2¥
> Target Human Runner is transformed into an Ork or troll (owner of
> Sudden Goblinization chooses). Modify the target Runner's Threat
> Rating as follows: Ork: +1/+1, Troll: +2/+2 (A+1) and target Runner
> loses all skills.
>
> Tony is wanting to beef up Turbo a bit, and tosses out SG while saying
> that Turbo is monkeying-out and becoming an ork. I think it'd be more
> interesting a different way. If I use SoC on his SG, can I target
> H-man instead and make him a troll (thus taking his skills)? Is the
> choice of race part of the targetting of the card, or since Tony had
> already said it was to make Turbo an ork as the card is coming out, is
> the race already locked in? (Potential speed/slap-fest issue.)

THis one is a bit tricky, but the way I see it is SoC only changes the Target
and not the effect. So Tony could still decide what type of transformation
he wants after you change the target.


--
Phil Jaros 888888888
chakan@************.com O=O=O=O=O
___________aaaaaaaaaaaaa___________
___...aaaad8888888888888888p"""""q8888888888888888baaaa...___
``"""""q8888888888888|
|8888888888888p"""""''
``"""""< `=-~-='
>"""""''
Chakan `| ^ |'
The Forever Man / | =-= | \
/ `__.__' \
Message no. 7
From: "Norman R. McLeod" <mcleodn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:16:02 PDT
> Tony goes to Nerps! a copy of Muscle Replacement for Skwaaaaaark only
> to find Nerps! is a copy of his Glitz's Walther Palm Pistol instead. =
:o)

You couldn't do this, as the Weather Palm Pistol is not a legal target =
for you can't put a NERPS! of any non-cyberware card on Skwaaaaaark any =
way (IMHO anyway)

> Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
> Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
> to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have any
> Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for when he
> can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?

Once again, as Skwaaaaaark can't carry the RD, IMHO you couldn't do this,=
RD not being a legal target

> Same type of scenerio except I know Tony doesn't have any Mages in the
> deck so I target Nerps on my Tempest's Combat Fetishes. Does Tony just
> discard the Nerps in this case, as he has no practical way to use the
> CF copy?
>
> Ok, a different twist on SoC. Sudden Goblinization (SG).
>
> Tony is wanting to beef up Turbo a bit, and tosses out SG while saying
> that Turbo is monkeying-out and becoming an ork. I think it'd be more
> interesting a different way. If I use SoC on his SG, can I target
> H-man instead and make him a troll (thus taking his skills)? Is the
> choice of race part of the targetting of the card, or since Tony had
> already said it was to make Turbo an ork as the card is coming out, is
> the race already locked in? (Potential speed/slap-fest issue.)

I think that would depend on when you played the NERPS!, IMHO if you play=
ed it before he stated which race, then he would still get to chose, if =
after, then it's too late
Message no. 8
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:35:49 -0700
---"Norman R. McLeod" <mcleodn@***********.NET> wrote:
>
> > Tony goes to Nerps! a copy of Muscle Replacement for Skwaaaaaark
only
> > to find Nerps! is a copy of his Glitz's Walther Palm Pistol
instead. :o)
>
> You couldn't do this, as the Weather Palm Pistol is not a legal
target for you can't put a NERPS! of any non-cyberware card on
Skwaaaaaark any way (IMHO anyway)

If you read Nerps, the target is a gear card to be copied not a Runner
it's given to. So what I'm doing in the case is making the Nerps gear
someting that can't be given to Skwaaaaaark. He could give the Walther
to a Thrash he has out, or possibly have to hold onto the gear in his
hand until he puts out another Runner. (As was in some of my other
questions.)

> > Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
> > Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
> > to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have
any
> > Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for when he
> > can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?
>
> Once again, as Skwaaaaaark can't carry the RD, IMHO you couldn't do
this, RD not being a legal target

Skwaaaaaark's not the target of Nerps, gear is (read the card text). I
don't see why I couldn't target any gear in play with Nerps. The
player's out shouldn't affect this, just whether they can then be
equipped with it or not. If I only have a Skwaaaaaark on the table,
I'm still able to draw one of the spells I put in my deck because of
the three mages in there aren't I?

> > Same type of scenerio except I know Tony doesn't have any Mages in
the
> > deck so I target Nerps on my Tempest's Combat Fetishes. Does Tony
just
> > discard the Nerps in this case, as he has no practical way to use
the
> > CF copy?
> >
> > Ok, a different twist on SoC. Sudden Goblinization (SG).
> >
> > Tony is wanting to beef up Turbo a bit, and tosses out SG while
saying
> > that Turbo is monkeying-out and becoming an ork. I think it'd be
more
> > interesting a different way. If I use SoC on his SG, can I target
> > H-man instead and make him a troll (thus taking his skills)? Is the
> > choice of race part of the targetting of the card, or since Tony had
> > already said it was to make Turbo an ork as the card is coming
out, is
> > the race already locked in? (Potential speed/slap-fest issue.)
>
> I think that would depend on when you played the NERPS!, IMHO if you
played it before he stated which race, then he would still get to
chose, if after, then it's too late


As I said, you're asking for speed rushes and slap-fests then. I'd
simply state that Turbo is now an ork, _then_ pull the card form my
hand and play it. Doesn't seem like the spirit of the game.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 4/9/98


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Message no. 9
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:34:28 -0700
---Gumbyflex1 <Gumbyflex1@***.COM> wrote:
>
> i wouuld say that your target on the nerps actually is who the nerps
goes on,
> so instead of giving him tempest's combat fettishes, you would have
to give a
> runner a muscle replacement, as long as you have a non magical
runner out on
> your side, your opponent doesnt end up with the muscle rep at all.

But Nerps specifically says "Choose a target Gear card (except Spirits
and Drones)" doesn't that imply right there that the target of the
special is choosing what gear you'll copy and have nothing to do with
who the gear is going to be given to?

-== Loki ==-
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Message no. 10
From: Norman McLeod <mcleodn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: SoC
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:28:34 -0400
>> > Tony goes to Nerps! a copy of Muscle Replacement for Skwaaaaaark
>only
>> > to find Nerps! is a copy of his Glitz's Walther Palm Pistol
>instead. :o)
>>
>> You couldn't do this, as the Weather Palm Pistol is not a legal
>target for you can't put a NERPS! of any non-cyberware card on
>Skwaaaaaark any way (IMHO anyway)
>
>If you read Nerps, the target is a gear card to be copied not a Runner
>it's given to. So what I'm doing in the case is making the Nerps gear
>someting that can't be given to Skwaaaaaark. He could give the Walther
>to a Thrash he has out, or possibly have to hold onto the gear in his
>hand until he puts out another Runner. (As was in some of my other
>questions.)


All I'm saying is that to play NERPS!, you must choose a runner to put it
on, and I don't think that some one should be able to effectively change the
receiving runner by changing the card. I don't think that they should be
able to SoC the NERPS! (Already headed to your Skwaaaaaark, too late to
change that) into something your Skwaaaaaark couldn't hold. I don't play
that you can go back on your decisions after they've been said out loud,
"I'll play a Muscle Replacement on Fastjack" "I'l play a Cyber-psychosis on
him" "Never mind that, that was stupid anyway, I'll play Beretta instead."
You get the idea. Personally, I think that the whole reason that I dissagree
with you comes from what we agree on, that SoC shouldn't be able to change
the runner that NERPS! is going to. I just think that you shouldn't be able
to either.

>> > Now here's the twist. Let's say Tony is again Nerpsing the H-man's
>> > Muscle Rep for his Skwaaaaaark. I toss out SoC and instead target it
>> > to duplicate my Ice Queen's Redirect Datatrail. Tony doesn't have
>any
>> > Deckers out. Can he tuck the Nerps'd RD back in his hand for when he
>> > can get Caeser out? Does it stay a copy of RD in that case?
>>
>> Once again, as Skwaaaaaark can't carry the RD, IMHO you couldn't do
>this, RD not being a legal target
>
>Skwaaaaaark's not the target of Nerps, gear is (read the card text). I
>don't see why I couldn't target any gear in play with Nerps. The
>player's out shouldn't affect this, just whether they can then be
>equipped with it or not. If I only have a Skwaaaaaark on the table,
>I'm still able to draw one of the spells I put in my deck because of
>the three mages in there aren't I?


I agree, Skwaaaaaark is not the target of NERPS!, but he has already been
chosen to receive the gear, which means I think that the whatever gear it
ends up as must end up going to him.

>> > Same type of scenerio except I know Tony doesn't have any Mages in
>the
>> > deck so I target Nerps on my Tempest's Combat Fetishes. Does Tony
>just
>> > discard the Nerps in this case, as he has no practical way to use
>the
>> > CF copy?


See above. IMHO I don't think you can do that, as the NERPS! should have to
stay a Gear that the runner can hold. It is exactly the same situation as
above. Skwaaaaaark is not a mage, so the CF couldn't be played on him, and
they aren't a legal target for the SoC

>> > Ok, a different twist on SoC. Sudden Goblinization (SG).
>> >
>> > Tony is wanting to beef up Turbo a bit, and tosses out SG while
>saying
>> > that Turbo is monkeying-out and becoming an ork. I think it'd be
>more
>> > interesting a different way. If I use SoC on his SG, can I target
>> > H-man instead and make him a troll (thus taking his skills)? Is the
>> > choice of race part of the targetting of the card, or since Tony had
>> > already said it was to make Turbo an ork as the card is coming
>out, is
>> > the race already locked in? (Potential speed/slap-fest issue.)
>>
>> I think that would depend on when you played the NERPS!, IMHO if you
>played it before he stated which race, then he would still get to
>chose, if after, then it's too late


SoC only changes the target of the card. In this case, the target is the
runner involved, not the type of runner they will become.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about SoC, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!