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Message no. 1
From: Ray Ciscon <RayCiscon@***.COM>
Subject: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:07:19 EST
Hello, I'm brand new to the list, and I hope I'm not going to step on any toes
or break any unrwritten rules by doing this, but I thought I'd let you guys
know about a rules variant I've been playing with my wife to make the game
faster, and more fun.

Problem: SR:TCG is a great game, but has a few flaws that can make for severe
problems that can take a lot of fun away from the game. Certain players like
to construct decks that serve no purpose but to abuse the game mechanics and
rules abstractions to the point where it doesn't matter what game they're
playing.

You know what I'm talking about. You've seen these decks. Heavy on 'Brutes',
i.e. Skwaaark!, Lord Torgo, etc., Armor, and Objectives that make the
Challenges inconsequential, i.e. 'Cleanse The Hive', etc.

The mechanics of this deck involve exclusively running against your own
Objectives, getting your 'Brute' Samurai's armored up enough that you can eat
the products of the converted Challenges for breakfast, and win the game.

This is fun if winning is the only important thing for you.

If you like, or love, the setting and background of Shadowrun, this bites.

The Solution: A few modifications that not only make the game faster, but also
make it, IMO, more fun.

1) The following cards are prohibited: Lord Torgo.

Lord Torgo, while being cool, is incredibly unbalancing. The best way to
counteract Lord Torgo is to get him out first. I know people who stack their
deck with 4 Lord Torgo's just to try and get him out sooner. Or you can modify
your deck to 'liquidate' Lord Torgo. This can work, but it's not much fun.

2) Turn the Special card, 'Moonlighting', into a Location card.

This lets you make money quicker, which makes the game go faster. We allow up
to 4 'Moonlighting' cards in play on each side at a time. All other rules
pertaining to Locations apply. NuYen is the lifeblood of the game, and this
lets you get your runners and stuff out quicker.

3) Remove the ability to 'Stack the Objective Deck'.

What we have done is take a single copy of all the objectives the player owns,
shuffle them, and then draw randomly from that deck for Objectives. This stops
the annoying habit of stacking the Objective deck in your own favor, and adds
the element of 'randomness' back into the mix.


Everyone I've played this variant with seems to like it.

What do you guys think?

Ray Ciscon
Message no. 2
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:54:32 -0800
Ray Ciscon wrote:

> Problem: SR:TCG is a great game, but has a few flaws that can make for severe
> problems that can take a lot of fun away from the game. Certain players like
> to construct decks that serve no purpose but to abuse the game mechanics and
> rules abstractions to the point where it doesn't matter what game they're
> playing.

> You know what I'm talking about. You've seen these decks. Heavy on 'Brutes',
> i.e. Skwaaark!, Lord Torgo, etc., Armor, and Objectives that make the
> Challenges inconsequential, i.e. 'Cleanse The Hive', etc.

> The mechanics of this deck involve exclusively running against your own
> Objectives, getting your 'Brute' Samurai's armored up enough that you can eat
> the products of the converted Challenges for breakfast, and win the game.

The easiest solution to this, honestly, is simply not to play those
types of decks. And when you realize a player *only* plays a degenerate
deck, sit down, shuffle your cards, and let him go first. Before he
even finishes drawing his first card, fold your hand and say "You win."

This usually doesn't take more than once to make the point.

That being said, all the Brutes are very well-balanced, Skwrk and Torgo
included.

> 1) The following cards are prohibited: Lord Torgo.

> Lord Torgo, while being cool, is incredibly unbalancing. The best way to
> counteract Lord Torgo is to get him out first. I know people who stack their
> deck with 4 Lord Torgo's just to try and get him out sooner. Or you can modify
> your deck to 'liquidate' Lord Torgo. This can work, but it's not much fun.

The following card is modified as follows:

Lord Torgo / Prime Runner : Ganger Leader / 9/2Y
9/9 A2. Troll, Stamina. Gunnery-1, Leadership-1, Melee-3, Street-2.
Turn and pay XY to trash target Ganger in play, where X equals that
card's deployment cost.

Well, that seems to be the most common erratta (or substitute Elf for
Ganger).

That being said, I don't find Torgo *that* over-powerful. I think the
skills should've been cut back a little; Melee-2 and Street-1 suffice.
The ability is nasty, but you're limited in the number of targets (given
that you're spending 2Y a turn just to be able to use it) and doing so
prevents you from actually using Torgo. Torgo's huge, a shadowrunning
team unto himself. Heck of a waste, using him as an elf-zapper.

I used to play an all-Elf deck (the Ruin-the-Nuyen deck.) When you've
got three Ice Queens, a Sticky Fingers, and several Hollywoods in play,
your opponent will simply never save up enough money (Moonlighting,
perhaps, being the exception) to get either Skwrk or Torgo into play.

But then, the Ruin deck is kinda degenerate itself.

> 2) Turn the Special card, 'Moonlighting', into a Location card.

> This lets you make money quicker, which makes the game go faster. We allow up
> to 4 'Moonlighting' cards in play on each side at a time. All other rules
> pertaining to Locations apply. NuYen is the lifeblood of the game, and this
> lets you get your runners and stuff out quicker.

Try Iron Lungs, which essentially give the same effect. Any good option
is simply to increase the starting nuyen, or the base amount you take in
each turn.

(Note: Given that any number of Runners can visit the same Location in
one turn, why would you have more than one in play at a given moment?)

> 3) Remove the ability to 'Stack the Objective Deck'.

> What we have done is take a single copy of all the objectives the player owns,
> shuffle them, and then draw randomly from that deck for Objectives. This stops
> the annoying habit of stacking the Objective deck in your own favor, and adds
> the element of 'randomness' back into the mix.

...Until you come to a guy like me, with, um, somewhere along the lines
of a hundred and twenty Objective cards. If you shuffle, I'll cut :)

Don't see much wrong with the Objective situation. Can you explain a
bit more?


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 3
From: Jon Palmer <jmp225@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:28:51 -0500
>1) The following cards are prohibited: Lord Torgo.
>
>Lord Torgo, while being cool, is incredibly unbalancing. The best way to
>counteract Lord Torgo is to get him out first. I know people who stack thei=
r
>deck with 4 Lord Torgo's just to try and get him out sooner. Or you can mod=
ify
>your deck to 'liquidate' Lord Torgo. This can work, but it's not much fun.

Funny, we did the EXACT SAME THING. :-) In a tournament setting, I'd
probably use 4 Torgos AND a couple of Abducteds so I can have mine out.
Note 2: Torgo would NOT be broken if he didn't have the "annihilate elves"
ability.
>
>2) Turn the Special card, 'Moonlighting', into a Location card.
>
>This lets you make money quicker, which makes the game go faster. We allow =
up
>to 4 'Moonlighting' cards in play on each side at a time. All other rules
>pertaining to Locations apply. NuYen is the lifeblood of the game, and this
>lets you get your runners and stuff out quicker.

Interesting... we found that if you just increase base ¥ to 5 a turn, it
seems to work better as well. Even if you have no rockers, you can still
do okay.
>
>3) Remove the ability to 'Stack the Objective Deck'.
>
>What we have done is take a single copy of all the objectives the player ow=
ns,
>shuffle them, and then draw randomly from that deck for Objectives. This st=
ops
>the annoying habit of stacking the Objective deck in your own favor, and ad=
ds
>the element of 'randomness' back into the mix.

I don't like this, because it kills fun things like the "Impossible Mission
Force" deck. It's better just not to use Cermak Blast, Cleanse the Hive
and Urban Brawl.

Jon Palmer
Message no. 4
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 02:14:08 -0800
Jon Palmer wrote:
=

> Interesting... we found that if you just increase base ¥ to 5 a turn,=
it
> seems to work better as well. Even if you have no rockers, you can sti=
ll
> do okay.

This I'd have to leave to being a Bigger Picture issue. Everyone's hurt
when you don't have enough cash, but I've played decks without Rockers
in them that survive on just the 4Y/turn thing. (Well -- a lot of
bonuses from Objectives, and some other cards.) The average Runner cost
is, iirc, 5.something, although some decks will be cheaper than others
(Ganger, Elf and Dwarf decks particularly), so 4Y/turn means you can't
just crank out cards, you have to sometimes balance one against the
other.

Once you push your base cashflow up to a certain point, you no longer
need Rockers in the game at all (with maybe the exception of Ragnarok). =

But, when you're low in nuyen, relying on a Rocker means that you're
relying on an underpowered Runner (3/3 and no skills, 2/2 and one skill;
a self-destructor and a very high-priced decent guy) rather than a
"real" Runner. So it becomes a balance thing, between power guys and
money guys. And after a certain point some strategies are completely
killed off (g'bye, decker thieves) and some explode (hello, pumper
challenges) to the point where you're just shifting the balance to a
slightly different alignment.

A base draw of 5Y or 6Y might suit some tastes, but certainly not all;
it also means that you can get a first turn Skrwk or Torgo, both of whom
you can maintain much more easily. So i find it funny that I see in
some posts both desire for a higher cashflow and a bash against Big
Tough Guy decks, since the two seem to go hand in hand. 4Y/turn seems
to be the right level for game speed and deck balancing, for all the
decks I've seen.

Again, if you see too much of a particular style of deck, it seems
simple enough to suggest a different approach, or even a moritorium on
some cards for a while, or perhaps set an example yourself; or even
start up a Goofy Theme Deck Day to try and escape to cookie-cutter
molds.



-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 5
From: Ray Ciscon <RayCiscon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:57:34 EST
In a message dated 2/5/98 7:31:27 PM, you wrote: <<Ray Ciscon wro=
te: >> Problem: SR:TCG is a great game, but has a few flaws that can=
make for severe >> problems that can take a lot of fun away from the=
game. Certain players like >> <snip> >> the
products of the=
converted Challenges for breakfast, and win the game. >The easiest =
solution to this, honestly, is simply not to play those >types of deck=
s. And when you realize a player *only* plays a degenerate >deck, sit =
down, shuffle your cards, and let him go first. Before he >even finish=
es drawing his first card, fold your hand and say "You win." >This
u=
sually doesn't take more than once to make the point. This works, bu=
t what if you are playing with people who can’t take the hint? =
That being said, all the Brutes are very well-balanced, Skwrk and Torgo=
included. I agree, with the exception of Lord Torgo, that the Bru=
tes are well balanced. But in conjunction with these tactics make the g=
ame unbalanced and no fun. >> 1) The following cards are prohibited:=
Lord Torgo. >> Lord Torgo, while being cool, is incredibly unbalanc=
ing. The best way to >> counteract Lord Torgo is to get him out first. =
I know people who stack their >> deck with 4 Lord Torgo's just to try=
and get him out sooner. Or you can modify >> your deck to 'liquidate=
' Lord Torgo. This can work, but it's not much fun. >The following c=
ard is modified as follows: >Lord Torgo / Prime Runner : Ganger Lead=
er / 9/2Y >9/9 A2. Troll, Stamina. Gunnery-1, Leadership-1, Melee-3, S=
treet-2. >Turn and pay XY to trash target Ganger in play, where X equal=
s that >card's deployment cost. >Well, that seems to be the most c=
ommon erratta (or substitute Elf for >Ganger). I was not aware of =
this ‘errata’. Is this official FASA errata, or a variant you play?=
>That being said, I don't find Torgo *that* over-powerful. I think=
the >skills should've been cut back a little; Melee-2 and Street-1 suf=
fice. >The ability is nasty, but you're limited in the number of target=
s (given >that you're spending 2Y a turn just to be able to use it) and=
doing so >prevents you from actually using Torgo. Torgo's huge, a sha=
dowrunning >team unto himself. Heck of a waste, using him as an elf-za=
pper. Oh, but that’s what he’s used for the vast majority of the=
time. I’ve seen players just about swallow their tongues when their =
opponent deploys Lord Torgo, and they’re running an elf deck..... =
>I used to play an all-Elf deck (the Ruin-the-Nuyen deck.) When you'v=
e >got three Ice Queens, a Sticky Fingers, and several Hollywoods in pl=
ay, >your opponent will simply never save up enough money (Moonlighting=
, >perhaps, being the exception) to get either Skwrk or Torgo into play=
. That depends upon whether or not he can get Lord Torgo out before =
you get all of your NuYen eaters out. >But then, the Ruin deck is =
kinda degenerate itself. >> 2) Turn the Special card, 'Moonlighting'=
, into a Location card. >> This lets you make money quicker, which m=
akes the game go faster. We allow up >> to 4 'Moonlighting' cards in =
play on each side at a time. All other rules >> pertaining to Locations=
apply. NuYen is the lifeblood of the game, and this >> lets you get yo=
ur runners and stuff out quicker. >Try Iron Lungs, which essentially=
give the same effect. Any good option >is simply to increase the star=
ting nuyen, or the base amount you take in >each turn. > (Note: Gi=
ven that any number of Runners can visit the same Location in >one turn=
, why would you have more than one in play at a given moment?) This =
is a mistake in my original posting, I’ll be posting errata to my own=
variant! ;-) >> 3) Remove the ability to 'Stack the Objective Dec=
k'. >> What we have done is take a single copy of all the objectives=
the player owns, >> shuffle them, and then draw randomly from that d=
eck for Objectives. This stops >> the annoying habit of stacking the =
Objective deck in your own favor, and adds >> the element of 'randomn=
ess' back into the mix. >..Until you come to a guy like me, with, um=
, somewhere along the lines >of a hundred and twenty Objective cards. =
If you shuffle, I'll cut :) You have mis-read my original post. I sa=
id to take 1 copy of each Objective the player owns. Are there 120 diff=
erent Objectives? >Don't see much wrong with the Objective situation=
. Can you explain a >bit more? The Objective stacking issue is ea=
sy to explain. The rules state that you need to have 6 or more Objectiv=
es. If you are running a no-fun Brute deck, your objectives would consi=
st of the following 6 Objectives: 2 - Sucker Run, 2 - Cleanse the Hive,=
and 2 - Amazonion Hunt (not sure about this last one, but it’s the O=
bjective that ignores the Challenges). All of these Objectives ignor=
e the challenges, therefore removing the need or thought of ‘Sleazing=
’ the challenges. It quickly becomes a race to see who can armor up t=
heir runners quicker at attack the Objective. No Fun. >-Matt =
Message no. 6
From: Ray Ciscon <RayCiscon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:29:21 EST
>>1) The following cards are prohibited: Lord Torgo. >> >>Lord
Torgo,=
while being cool, is incredibly unbalancing. The best way to >>counter=
act Lord Torgo is to get him out first. I know people who stack their >=
>deck with 4 Lord Torgo's just to try and get him out sooner. Or you can=
modify >>your deck to 'liquidate' Lord Torgo. This can work, but it'=
s not much fun. >Funny, we did the EXACT SAME THING. :-) In a tourn=
ament setting, I'd >probably use 4 Torgos AND a couple of Abducteds so =
I can have mine out. >Note 2: Torgo would NOT be broken if he didn't ha=
ve the "annihilate elves" >ability. Yep... The Troll Lord is
too s=
trong. >> >>2) Turn the Special card, 'Moonlighting', into a
Locat=
ion card. >> >>This lets you make money quicker, which makes the
game=
go faster. We allow up >>to 4 'Moonlighting' cards in play on each s=
ide at a time. All other rules >>pertaining to Locations apply. NuYen i=
s the lifeblood of the game, and this >>lets you get your runners and s=
tuff out quicker. >Interesting... we found that if you just increase=
base ¥ to 5 a turn, it >seems to work better as well. Even if you h=
ave no rockers, you can still >do okay. Sounds like an intriguing =
idea... I’ll have to try it. >> >>3) Remove the ability
to 'Stac=
k the Objective Deck'. >> >>What we have done is take a single copy
o=
f all the objectives the player owns, >>shuffle them, and then draw r=
andomly from that deck for Objectives. This stops >>the annoying habi=
t of stacking the Objective deck in your own favor, and adds >>the el=
ement of 'randomness' back into the mix. >I don't like this, because=
it kills fun things like the "Impossible Mission >Force" deck. It's b=
etter just not to use Cermak Blast, Cleanse the Hive >and Urban Brawl.=
True, and what you suggest works also. I would suggest that you dec=
ide between players what type of game you want to play before you start=
, and then go with that. >Jon Palmer Thanks, Ray
Ciscon=
Message no. 7
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 23:27:38 -0800
Ray Ciscon wrote:

> >The easiest solution to this, honestly, is simply not to play those
> >types of decks. And when you realize a player *only* plays a degener=
ate
> >deck, sit down, shuffle your cards, and let him go first. Before he
> >even finishes drawing his first card, fold your hand and say "You win=
."
=

> >This usually doesn't take more than once to make the point.
=

> This works, but what if you are playing with people who can’t take t=
he hint?

Try telling them flat-out. Since, it seems, you play with a group
willing to support some fairly - no jag meant, but fairly arbitrary
rules to eliminate what you think are bad playing styles, it should be
enough.
=

> That being said, all the Brutes are very well-balanced, Skwrk and Torg=
o
> included.
=

> I agree, with the exception of Lord Torgo, that the Brutes are well ba=
lanced.
> But in conjunction with these tactics make the game unbalanced and no =
fun.

How's Torgo unbalanced?

"conjunction with these tactics..." Well, yeah, that's the heart of
CCG's, tactics. There are some fairly common means of dealing with the
'unbalancing' tactics you mention. It's not like there's no risk
involved for them.

And, since I'm on the defensive here (well - devil's advocate is more
like it) -- what type of decks do you think *aren't* cheesy?

>>> Lord Torgo, while being cool, is incredibly unbalancing. The best way=
to
>>> counteract Lord Torgo is to get him out first. I know people who stac=
k
>>> their deck with 4 Lord Torgo's just to try and get him out sooner.

Bad tactic. Once you have one out, the rest are cheese that will just
flow from deck to hand to trash. Three cards you can't use.

Better yet: Draw all four on the first draw. Well, here's a card who
can't come into play this turn.. and you better hope, with a
Chrome-Bruiser deck, that you draw Rockers real soon, or you're doing
nothing the entire game.

In the Great Scheme of Things (tm), I don't see that the card affects
game-balance at all. The other deck favorites are the decker-thiefs.. =

which are all Elves. It means, of course, that you should probably shy
away from a pure-Elf deck; where's the harm in that? Torgo's big; so's
FastJack; so, in the right hand, is Tinkerbell, or Dirk Montgomery, or
Turbo, or any Runner.

>>> Or you can modify your deck to 'liquidate' Lord Torgo. This can work,=
but it's not much fun.
=

> >The following card is modified as follows:

> >Lord Torgo / Prime Runner : Ganger Leader / 9/2Y
> >9/9 A2. Troll, Stamina. Gunnery-1, Leadership-1, Melee-3, Street-2.
> >Turn and pay XY to trash target Ganger in play, where X equals that
> >card's deployment cost.

> >Well, that seems to be the most common erratta (or substitute Elf for=

> >Ganger).
=

> I was not aware of this ‘errata’. Is this official FASA errata, or=
a variant
> you play?

Read: House rules.
=

> >That being said, I don't find Torgo *that* over-powerful. I think th=
e
> >skills should've been cut back a little; Melee-2 and Street-1 suffice=
.
> >The ability is nasty, but you're limited in the number of targets (gi=
ven
> >that you're spending 2Y a turn just doing so prevents you from actual=
ly using Torgo.
> Torgo's huge, a shadowrunning team unto himself. Heck of a waste, usin=
g him as an elf-zapper.
=

> Oh, but that’s what he’s used for the vast majority of the time. I=
’ve seen
> players just about swallow their tongues when their opponent deploys L=
ord
> Torgo, and they’re running an elf deck.....

Strange, as I've never had a problem. And I've played a lot of
different all-elf decks, too.

Of course, knowing that there is such a thing as Torgo in the card-set,
and probably knowing that such-and-such a player has one or more, the
lesson of the day is not to play to that deck's strengths. There are
plenty - and I do mean plenty - of anti-Troll strategies out there.

> >I used to play an all-Elf deck (the Ruin-the-Nuyen deck.) When
you've
> >got three Ice Queens, a Sticky Fingers, and several Hollywoods in pla=
y,
> >your opponent will simply never save up enough money (Moonlighting,
> >perhaps, being the exception) to get either Skwrk or Torgo into play.=

=

> That depends upon whether or not he can get Lord Torgo out before you =
get all
> of your NuYen eaters out.

Given that you have more "Nuyen" eaters than there are Torgos in the
opponent's deck, it's quite likely. Again, I've never had a problem
with him; I don't see that you're making a strong case against him
either.
=

> >But then, the Ruin deck is kinda degenerate itself.
=

> >> 2) Turn the Special card, 'Moonlighting', into a Location card.
=

> >> This lets you make money quicker, which makes the game go faster. W=
e allow
> up to 4 'Moonlighting' cards in play on each side at a time. All other=
rules
> >> pertaining to Locations apply. NuYen is the lifeblood of the game, =
and this
> >> lets you get your runners and stuff out quicker.

> >Try Iron Lungs, which essentially give the same effect. Any good opt=
ion
> >is simply to increase the starting nuyen, or the base amount you take=
in
> >each turn.

> > (Note: Given that any number of Runners can visit the same Location =
in
> >one turn, why would you have more than one in play at a given moment?=
)
=

> This is a mistake in my original posting, I’ll be posting errata to =
my own
> variant! ;-)

No need, I understood what you meant. Why use Moonlit locations over
Iron Lung? -- I don't see the need for a correction when there are
already solutions. As importantly: this benefits Big Tough Guy as much
as.. uh, weenie decks.
=

> >> 3) Remove the ability to 'Stack the Objective Deck'.
=

> >> What we have done is take a single copy of all the objectives the p=
layer
> owns, shuffle them, and then draw randomly from that deck for Objectiv=
es. This
> stops the annoying habit of stacking the Objective deck in your own fa=
vor, and
> adds the element of 'randomness' back into the mix.

> >..Until you come to a guy like me, with, um, somewhere along the line=
s
> >of a hundred and twenty Objective cards. If you shuffle, I'll cut :)=

=

> You have to take 1 copy of each Objective the player owns. Are there 1=
20 different Objectives?

Nope. If I give away all my Objectives (excepting whichever ones you
object to), will you get mad? Try to prove I actually have others?

There's quite a bit of strategy involved in selecting the right
Objectives for your deck. Why not choose random Challenges too? Random
Runners? (That is, it seems, part of the reason you object to Torgo..)

> >Don't see much wrong with the Objective situation. Can you explain a=

> >bit more?

> The Objective stacking issue is easy to explain. The rules state that =
you need
> to have 6 or more Objectives. If you are running a no-fun Brute deck, =
your
> objectives would consist of the following 6 Objectives: 2 - Sucker Run=
, 2 -
> Cleanse the Hive, and 2 - Amazonion Hunt (not sure about this last one=
, but
> it’s the Objective that ignores the Challenges).

Probably Urban Brawl.

I'd go with three-and-three, and eliminate the Sucker Runs. I don't
see, by the way, how it's no fun, as there are a number of strategies to
slip by the Bug Challenges (UB presents its out hidden entrance) as well
as making both tougher for the Trolls to wade through.

And it's not like you have to sharpen your deck specifically against the
Troll decks either; most of the cards (GAQS, Whoops, others) have other
uses that you're not hindering your deck at all.

> All of these Objectives ignore the challenges, therefore removing the =
need or
> thought of ‘Sleazing’ the challenges. It quickly becomes a race to=
see who can
> armor up their runners quicker at attack the Objective. No Fun.

...Unless of course, you run against your own Challenges. But, no, we
choose them randomly, so I can't be *sure* I can set up a run that I can
sleaze and the Brutes can't.

See, that's what's getting my goat about these solutions -- they're not
solutions. They create as much of a problem as they claim to solve. =

There will always be Big Tough Guys; handing out the nuyen quicker
simply means you get more players playing Brutes, because their downside
(cost a lot) completely disappears. Big and tough is big and tough, and
there are enough power guys out there with decent skills as well
(Torgo's just one) that even against random Objectives, they're still
going to win more often than not. You've benefitted more than you've
hindered them, with the solutions you've proposed.


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

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Message no. 8
From: Jon Palmer <jmp225@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:57:08 -0500
>> I agree, with the exception of Lord Torgo, that the Brutes are well
>>balanced.
>> But in conjunction with these tactics make the game unbalanced and no fun.
>
>How's Torgo unbalanced?

Assuming you have NOTHING else to give you money, Torgo is 2 dead elves a
turn. THAT is a problem. If it was just Turn and pay X to kill target
Elf, where X is equal to the number of cards attached to the elf + 1,
that's fine. But killing multiple elves a turn is a real problem.

Jon Palmer
Message no. 9
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: SR:TCG Rules Variant - Fast & Fun
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:45:58 -0800
Jon Palmer wrote:

> >> I agree, with the exception of Lord Torgo, that the Brutes are well
> >> balanced.
> >> But in conjunction with these tactics make the game unbalanced and no fun.

> >How's Torgo unbalanced?

> Assuming you have NOTHING else to give you money, Torgo is 2 dead elves a
> turn. THAT is a problem.

Which sounds ultra-huge when written in a vacuum, I'll agree.

However: 9Y to begin with, and 2Y a round, means that it's difficult
getting Torgo out even when you have him in your hand. And while you
keep him in play, you're doing nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Squat.
You might swat down two elves, but you're not getting forward. And,
with a Bad Reputation or two, you're sinking in Reputation.

Put in a Humanis - or more than just one - and you're paying an awful
lot just to look at Torgo sit in a corner for a while. Follow up with
an Abducted, Archie McDeven, the Crawler, a swift bash from a well-armed
Skwrk - well, there are other, and better, strategies; those are just
the most obvious.

To rant on a little longer :) while your opponent is scraping the barrel
for the nuyen for Torgo, you're free to do what you want. Elves are
fast, cheap, and nearly all come with some
special ability. You should be putting them into play faster than Torgo
offs them. Tempest's ability - used with prudence - is potentially more
devestating for a lot less nuyen. Ice Queen - well, two or three Ice
Queens ganging up - can completely prevent Torgo from ever hitting
play. Dodger's great against Bar Fights and Wanteds, because you just
can't stop him.

And of course, shying away from Elves eliminates hi ability altogether.

Personally - and, really, there's nothing to this discussion except you
saying "I hateses him!" and me going "I like, I like!" - I find the
presence of Torgo in the game inspiring. How many different ways can
you pull the plug on Torgo? Failing that, once your Big Happy Team of
pointy-eared friends is slashed to ribbons, how do you recoup?

Maybe it's just my never-say-die demeanor. I try and face the problem,
rather than scoot around it.

Torgo is nasty. He is not a mox.


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

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