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Message no. 1
From: Jeffrey Nuremburg <xanatos@********.NET>
Subject: Tokens and Semantics
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:02:37 -0500
Hey all.

I was watching the devoping thread concerning tokens and whether or
not they can be regarded as Gear. Here is my perception on the matter.

We all play this card game (and hopefully everyone loves it) but
what we all must face is that card games such as this often come down to
issues of semantics. The wording and text of a card are critical in the
interpretation of its purpose and meaning. When the wording is confusing or
erroneous the card tends to debilitate game play or offset the balance of
the game itself. This "token" issue is just one such situation. Good
groups of players can usually come to a consensus on how a card is to be
used, but in the heat of a game (and especially when you're about to win)
people get a bit wacky and tend to get a little bit heated when they play a
super cool move and the guy across the table says, "You can't do that.
That's not what the card is saying." Fortunately we have some level of
communication with the designers of the game so we actually have the
facility to implement change in the rules of the game itself. In the light
of that, here is my personal take on the "token" situation.

In the rule book it clearly states that runners may exchange
"Gear/<something>" cards between them with the exception of
Gear/Cyberware.
This text seems to define that the text attribute "Gear/<something>" is
required in order to be traded. With tokens, say on the card Shadowland, it
talks about an "Info token". Note that it does not specifically say,
"Gear/Info token". The token itself inherits the text attributes assigned
to it by the card that creates it (in this case the Location Shadowland).
The token is thus only an "Info token". Since it is not a "Gear/Info
Token"
it cannot be affected or utilized in terms of effects that require
"Gear/<something>". This can be compared in a similar light to the effect
that the Objectives Cermak Blast and Cleanse the Hive have on Bluffs. If a
Bluff is revealed the card is not converted into an Awakened creature
because it is not a Challenge card (i.e. - lacks the text attribute that
defines the card as a Challenge). In much the same light the "Info token"
(and to my knowledge all of the other tokens that currently exist in the
game) lack the text attribute that classifies them as "Gear/<something>".

As I said earlier, card games of this type often boil down to
semantics (and the will of the playing group). It is the semantics of a
game however that define its limits and rules and that ultimately make it
challenging and fun. Although it often stinks to have to engage in an
analysis of the context of the game rules (I'd personally rather just play
most of the time), it is sometimes necessary in order to establish a rules
set that stops certain cards from becoming too powerful and ruining the
game. I hope that the designers of the game agree with me. If it was their
intention that the tokens be able to be used as gear (i.e. - traded,
sacraficed to Street Scum, etc.) then they should consider changing the text
on Shadowland and other token creation cards to include the "Gear" term.

Okay enough ranting for now. That's my two-cents.

Thanks.

--
Jeffrey Nuremburg / System Administrator
xanatos@********.net
cgiguy@********.net - All CGI related requests

"I've been an atheist - I had found it difficult to
have religious beliefs and scientific ones, but I've
accepted that I have a duality - there's a human
way of interacting with people but also a mechanistic
explanation of what people are and how they work."

- Rodney Brooks, Director of MIT's AI Lab
Message no. 2
From: Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tokens and Semantics
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:52:26 -0500
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Jeffrey Nuremburg wrote:
> As I said earlier, card games of this type often boil down to
> semantics (and the will of the playing group). It is the semantics of a
> game however that define its limits and rules and that ultimately make it
> challenging and fun. Although it often stinks to have to engage in an
> analysis of the context of the game rules (I'd personally rather just play
> most of the time), it is sometimes necessary in order to establish a rules
> set that stops certain cards from becoming too powerful and ruining the
> game. I hope that the designers of the game agree with me. If it was their
> intention that the tokens be able to be used as gear (i.e. - traded,
> sacraficed to Street Scum, etc.) then they should consider changing the text
> on Shadowland and other token creation cards to include the "Gear" term.

Come on, you knew I'd say something...

Firstly, Honestly I doubt these tokens will off-balance the game.

I guess my point is that if it looks like some gear and it acts like some
gear why can't it be gear? If the only response I hear is, because it's
not labeled Gear than I'll always argue the point. If there is an
official ruling on it and/or the play group out-votes me, then I'll accept
that judgement, but I just feel that if it makes sense then it should be.
I know that the rules are against me on this, but who cares. If you can't
change the rules (and FASA is all about this, look at the Matrix rules
from the RPG) or adjust them to make the feel of the game or the mechanics
more elegant than what's the point. CCG's are one of the only areas of
gaming that rules can be changed or rethough-out pretty easily. My point,
don't limit yourself to the rules, rules are restrictive, inflexible and
static. Change is good.

This applies to more than this token discussion.

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Tokens and Semantics
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:45:38 -0600
On 03/04/98 02:02:37 you wrote:
>
>Hey all.
>
> I was watching the devoping thread concerning tokens and whether or
>not they can be regarded as Gear. Here is my perception on the matter.
>
> We all play this card game (and hopefully everyone loves it) but
>what we all must face is that card games such as this often come down to
>issues of semantics. The wording and text of a card are critical in the
>interpretation of its purpose and meaning. When the wording is confusing or
>erroneous the card tends to debilitate game play or offset the balance of
>the game itself. This "token" issue is just one such situation. Good
>groups of players can usually come to a consensus on how a card is to be
>used, but in the heat of a game (and especially when you're about to win)
>people get a bit wacky and tend to get a little bit heated when they play a
>super cool move and the guy across the table says, "You can't do that.
>That's not what the card is saying." Fortunately we have some level of
>communication with the designers of the game so we actually have the
>facility to implement change in the rules of the game itself. In the light
>of that, here is my personal take on the "token" situation.
>
>

[kasnip]

Which is usually true; however, when it comes to tournament time, house rules don't cut
it.
There has to be some hard and fast definitions about what is what. I don't have a problem
with
runners trading Info or Drug Tokens; if the rules on trading specify Gear cards, that is
what
should be followed, just for continuities sake...



rabiola@**.netcom.com

Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire Juhafa Vadic, Nethermancer
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome... Many speak ill of the path I walk...
Message no. 4
From: "Whitehill, Chris" <chwh@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Tokens and Semantics
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:15:37 -0700
Just want to throw my 2 cents in on the token as gear issue.
As most of us know from playing other CCGs, complexity can lead to
messy rules and the need to make multiple rulings on already messy
rules.
Read "Magic the Gathering".
It boils down to this: Keep it simple. Don't read more into the rule
book than is in print.
Nowhere in the rules does it mention tokens being anything other than
tokens.
Although, if you have a suggestion about this feel free to make it to
FASA.
That is the nice thing about this type of forum. We can bounce ideas
off one another and offer them up to the SRTCG creators. They do have
access to this mail list. Loki's card is the perfect example of that.
Ok, back to the grind.

-Chris-
Still working on my personal card.
>
Message no. 5
From: "(No Name Available)" <mothman@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Tokens and semantics
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:15:09 -0600
>>>(big snip) If it was their intention that the tokens be able to be used as
gear (i.e. - traded, sacraficed to Street Scum, etc.) then they should consider changing
the text on Shadowland and other token creation cards to include the "Gear"
term.<<<

Bravo! An excellent post! I couldn't agree more…

I think that, as a group, we can learn from what Jeffrey has to say on
this subject. While there appear to be a few mistakes and some
inaccurate wording in Shadowrun TCG, the DLOHs have been pretty careful
in defining areas like bluffing (a bluff card isn't a Challenge) and
trading Gear (tokens are tokens, not Gear. Why would you be able to
trade 'em?). The thought process Jeffrey used is an excellent way to
approach a TCG. It's logical to make decisions based within the
framework of the rules as they exist.

In other words, if there are no rules about trading tokens, that
probably means you can't. =)

--
mothman@**********.com

"It's more fun to compute"
—Kraftwerk

--
mothman@**********.com

"It's more fun to compute"
—Kraftwerk
Message no. 6
From: Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tokens and semantics
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:01:19 -0500
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, (No Name Available) wrote:

> >>>(big snip) If it was their intention that the tokens be able to be used
as gear (i.e. - traded, sacraficed to Street Scum, etc.) then they should consider
changing the text on Shadowland and other token creation cards to include the
"Gear" term.<<<
>
> Bravo! An excellent post! I couldn't agree more…
>
> I think that, as a group, we can learn from what Jeffrey has to say on
> this subject. While there appear to be a few mistakes and some
> inaccurate wording in Shadowrun TCG, the DLOHs have been pretty careful
> in defining areas like bluffing (a bluff card isn't a Challenge) and
> trading Gear (tokens are tokens, not Gear. Why would you be able to
> trade 'em?). The thought process Jeffrey used is an excellent way to
> approach a TCG. It's logical to make decisions based within the
> framework of the rules as they exist.

Maybe it's logical, maybe it's the correct answer to this particular
situation, but it's very closed minded, unimaginative and detrimental to
the future of any game. It doesn't matter if it's a CG or a RPG or a BG.
I guess life would be a lot easier if _everyone_ just followed the rules
and never questioned what was going on within those rules. And I agree,
tokens are tokens, not gear, but if a token even represents gear (without
being labeled it) why shouldn't you be able to trade them? Sounds pretty
lame to me to not even consider the possibility just because the label
isn't there.

> In other words, if there are no rules about trading tokens, that
> probably means you can't. =)

I guess that's one way of looking at it. Maybe my thought process isn't
as logical as yours or maybe I'm just not as bent on rules if it doesn't
accurately represent what's going on in the game. Drugs are an object,
the tokens represent those objects. Objects can be moved from one person
to another, FRAG THE RULES, in this case, they don't make sense.

To all you rules lawyers out there, you'll keep coming back to me with the
exact same arguments that you all have repeated to me in every post,
"tokens are tokens and gear is gear". I've run out of different ways to
state my argument, so unless someone has something new to say on the
discussion, I say we wait for the official ruling.

BTW-if I had to bet on the outcome, I'd say that it'll get ruled against
trading. The only reason for this is that it'll keep the game easier to
play and there will be less risk for abuse by future token generators (I
know which is exactly every one's point). I think that this is fine as
long as it's ruled this way because no one wants to deal with the
consequences. Regardless, it makes sense that you _can_ trade them even
if it's ruled against.

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Tokens and Semantics
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:58:52 -0800
---Jeffrey Nuremburg <xanatos@********.NET> wrote:
>
> Hey all.
>
> I was watching the devoping thread concerning tokens and
whether or
> not they can be regarded as Gear. Here is my perception on the
matter.

<snip>

Excellent summarization, and it echoes my thoughts on the matter.

I've forwarded your post over to Jim and Skuzzy in a further attempt
to get their comments on the whole token matter.

-== Loki ==-
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
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+---------------------------------------------------------------+
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SRTCG trade lists last updated 2/26/98

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