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Message no. 1
From: Felix Hoefert <FHoefert@********.DE>
Subject: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 01:04:55 +0200
Hi!

I´m having considerable difficulty building a strong deck including
Underworld cards. I´ve playtested an Elf/ Mafia deck, but the Trolls
still walk through the Beat´em Up Objectives. I rarely get those Lokis
out/ on hand quick enough, and I can´t pack my deck full of
Troll-targetting Specials for lack of Chgallenges. I hope someone out
there can advise me if I should still use my boring Troll deck, or how
to make a deck that beats it (since our prevailing champ uses quite a
similar one). I think the Torgo danger is still too great to risk an
all-elves deck. ---Felix
Message no. 2
From: Mamoulian <shine@************.NET>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:27:08 -0700
At 01:04 AM 3/30/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi!
>
>I´m having considerable difficulty building a strong deck including
>Underworld cards. I´ve playtested an Elf/ Mafia deck, but the Trolls
>still walk through the Beat´em Up Objectives. I rarely get those Lokis
>out/ on hand quick enough, and I can´t pack my deck full of
>Troll-targetting Specials for lack of Chgallenges. I hope someone out
>there can advise me if I should still use my boring Troll deck, or how
>to make a deck that beats it (since our prevailing champ uses quite a
>similar one). I think the Torgo danger is still too great to risk an
>all-elves deck. ---Felix
>
>

I have a player that has a stompum' deck. I always get him with money.
All of the big brusers cost allot.

Some hints that have worked for me.
Challenges that cannot be rammed through(maglocks, nets, gut checks,
minefield, incubus)

The underworld has provided us with wonderful cards that kill the,
"Um..the plan is to kick through the door" decks:

-Cement Shoes-Expensive yet wonderful little card.
-Unstable Ally-Gee Squarrk is antisocial.
-Special Delivery-This also helps to kill off those pesty money making
rockers.
-Forced Attrition- This also kills rather nicely.
-In-Fighting-Expensive...but well worth killing the troll deck.

And of course the old favorites:
Abducted: Torgo no more
Lord Torgo: If you have him in play...no one else can...also can be used
with above strategy to frag opponents Torgo (play your Torgo while he is
abducted...according to FASA..the Abducted Torgo is now fragged)
Humanis Policlub Ganger- Makes the cards more expensive, and come out=
turned.
Cyber-Psychosis- Another "killer" card.
Suicide Run- " "

Hope that helps....these decks are about as anoying as the
"Invisibility\Cermak Blast" decks.

Mamo
Message no. 3
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:22:18 -0800
---Mamoulian <shine@************.NET> wrote:
>
> At 01:04 AM 3/30/98 +0200, you wrote:
> >Hi!
> >
> >I´m having considerable difficulty building a strong deck including
> >Underworld cards. I´ve playtested an Elf/ Mafia deck, but the Trolls
> >still walk through the Beat´em Up Objectives. I rarely get those
Lokis
> >out/ on hand quick enough,

That's a shame. I currently have two in my deck and Ithey were working
pretty good for me Saturday. I found a wonderful tactic against Trolls
when I rembered to start using Loki's special as a stinger. Wham! Turn
and hit a turned troll for 3 points AP at the end of your opponent's
turn. If that didn't do him in, unturn Loki and Wham! hit the troll
for another 3 AP during your turn. 6 points AP damage from on card,
get two of these guys out and it's rock the Trogs. :o)

> > and I can´t pack my deck full of
> >Troll-targetting Specials for lack of Chgallenges. I hope someone out
> >there can advise me if I should still use my boring Troll deck, or
how
> >to make a deck that beats it (since our prevailing champ uses quite a
> >similar one). I think the Torgo danger is still too great to risk an
> >all-elves deck. ---Felix

I'll post my current revision of Poisoned Elves II for you tomorrow.
Right now I'll just comment.

> I have a player that has a stompum' deck. I always get him with
money.
> All of the big brusers cost allot.

Exactly, this is where to hit them and make it hurt.

> Some hints that have worked for me.
> Challenges that cannot be rammed through(maglocks, nets, gut checks,
> minefield, incubus)

Lone Star Beat Cops, this is the one I really like. It's a Social
sleaze so Skwraaaaaak and Gore Tusk trip it automatically. Target
Runner is arrested, so you get to pick. The Big Bully goes back to
owners hand and all gear is trashed. Sure you don't trash the Runner,
but losing the free cyber of a Skwraaaaaak is gonna hurt, and 8-10 nu
yen to keep putting the Runner out can suck!

Widows Trap works wonders on Bully teams. Tuck in a loaded dice or two
and it's really fun!

Scatter Brain Raid is another recommended no-punch through.

Nets thins out the ranks on these guys effectively, I've seen this
against Tony a few times.

Maglocks... maglocks... maglocks.

Outside of Challenges, don't forget the Humanis Policlubber. He's a
staple in my anti-troll tactics. Targeting trolls, he slows bully
decks down even more and if you can couple him with a Loki, well...

Also, Change of Plans works well when your opponent is trying the
Bully and Beat'em Up Objective combo.

The Humanis Policlub Rally Odjective is nice against Trolls, but I
don't tuck it in with my elven deck. ;o)

Also Doomsday Device as an Objective is good, most sleaze decks (elves
or humans) are low-cost speed decks and they'll recover alot quicker
from this then a Bully troll deck.

> The underworld has provided us with wonderful cards that kill the,
> "Um..the plan is to kick through the door" decks:
>
> -Cement Shoes-Expensive yet wonderful little card.
> -Unstable Ally-Gee Squarrk is antisocial.
> -Special Delivery-This also helps to kill off those pesty money making
> rockers.
> -Forced Attrition- This also kills rather nicely.
> -In-Fighting-Expensive...but well worth killing the troll deck.

I again want to stress the effectiveness of cards that "arrest" the
Big Bullies. Lone Star Beat Cops, Long Arm of the Law, 911, Handcuffs
on your LS Runner. These should become your good friends if your
making a deck to play against a Bully deck.

Another couple of cards you forgot to mention from UW:

- Metahuman Predjudice. Re-shuffles that brute back into the deck, and
if its Torgo the nu yen even goes bye-bye.
- Lone Star Undercover. A randomly present Runner is trashed and adds
his threat rating to the current LS or Personnel challenge. Think
about this: Stomper gets trashed and Halloweener Hell suddenly starts
at 12/11 (A1), or better yet Skwraaaaaak gets trashed and Mage Strike
Force now starts at 14/14 (A3). Yes, Tony and I checked and Armor is
part of the threat rating so it gets added in. ;o)
- Forced Attrition will force your opponent to trash Runners even
though his hamemring through Challenges.
- In the Spotlight will keep duplicates of Stomper, Skwraaaaaak, etc.
from coming out for a while.
- Retirement only needs Torgo to be damaged even a single point during
a successful run and he's outta there.

Hope this helps some more. I'm putting together Poisoned Elves II for
posting at my site and will send it to the list as well. Probably
tomorrow a.m.

Let me just say Ancient's HQ is great! You get that out and suddenly
Honda Vikings are +3/+0 (A+3) on your elven gangers. Saturday night I
had two Redlines out totalling 7 points of Armor (one also had Dermal
Plating). That's two elves at 7/5 (A4) and 7/3 (A3) not counting
support Runners. Two turns later I had Muscle Replacement on the first
redline and Tir Tairngire out. Now the two gangers were usually a 10/6
(A4) and 8/3 (A3). I won't go into details on when LotP another
Redline and a Viper hit the table... ;o)

Even funnier was two games before when Wildfire took an Initiation to
become a ganger. He became an Ancient, got his bike and was tooling
around as a 5/2 (A6) with 2 Sleeps and a Jinx.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/28/98
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 4
From: Tony Glinka <porthos@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:58:07 -0700
Loki wrote:

> ---Mamoulian <shine@************.NET> wrote:
> >
> > At 01:04 AM 3/30/98 +0200, you wrote:
> > >Hi!
> > >
> > >I´m having considerable difficulty building a strong deck including
> > >Underworld cards. I´ve playtested an Elf/ Mafia deck, but the Trolls
> > >still walk through the Beat´em Up Objectives. I rarely get those
> Lokis
> > >out/ on hand quick enough,
>
> That's a shame. I currently have two in my deck and Ithey were working
> pretty good for me Saturday. I found a wonderful tactic against Trolls
> when I rembered to start using Loki's special as a stinger. Wham! Turn
> and hit a turned troll for 3 points AP at the end of your opponent's
> turn. If that didn't do him in, unturn Loki and Wham! hit the troll
> for another 3 AP during your turn. 6 points AP damage from on card,
> get two of these guys out and it's rock the Trogs. :o)

Some comments here on the Loki card. The thing about the card is that at
the least it will be an annoyance to your opponent's Trolls. Yes, if you
get a few of them out you can trash one of them, but even one Loki is enough
to give your opponent something to think about. When dividing up damage he
has to make sure his trolls have at least a 4 body or it's good-bye Mr.
Troll. Almost always he will have to start a run with an injured troll.
That's less points they can take on a challenge.

> > Some hints that have worked for me.
> > Challenges that cannot be rammed through(maglocks, nets, gut checks,
> > minefield, incubus)
>
> Lone Star Beat Cops, this is the one I really like. It's a Social
> sleaze so Skwraaaaaak and Gore Tusk trip it automatically. Target
> Runner is arrested, so you get to pick. The Big Bully goes back to
> owners hand and all gear is trashed. Sure you don't trash the Runner,
> but losing the free cyber of a Skwraaaaaak is gonna hurt, and 8-10 nu
> yen to keep putting the Runner out can suck!
>
> Widows Trap works wonders on Bully teams. Tuck in a loaded dice or two
> and it's really fun!
>
> Scatter Brain Raid is another recommended no-punch through.
>
> Nets thins out the ranks on these guys effectively, I've seen this
> against Tony a few times.

Actually, it's those damn Mine Fields that do me in. :) Well, and you
also, Loki. :)

> Maglocks... maglocks... maglocks.
>
> Outside of Challenges, don't forget the Humanis Policlubber. He's a
> staple in my anti-troll tactics. Targeting trolls, he slows bully
> decks down even more and if you can couple him with a Loki, well...

Humanis Policlub contact is a major nuisance. For a one card addition to
your deck, it has some nasty effects. Say you have a couple of Loki's and
you play ol' Humanis. If your opponent wants to play a Skwraaaaaark! it now
costs 11 and he comes into play turned. If you left at least one of your
Loki's unturned you can wipe him out. Use any unturned Loki's as stingers
and there is 3 (or 6) points AP damage. Your turn comes around and boom,
use your Loki's again on the still turned and hurting Skwraaaaaark! is now
trashed. Your opponent is out 11 nuyen and you only had to spend 3 nuyen to
do it. And no, Loki has not been able to use this tactic on any of my
Skwraaaaaark!'s yet.

> I again want to stress the effectiveness of cards that "arrest" the
> Big Bullies. Lone Star Beat Cops, Long Arm of the Law, 911, Handcuffs
> on your LS Runner. These should become your good friends if your
> making a deck to play against a Bully deck.

And thanks to those Luck of the Irish's to save me from that annoying Long
Arm of the Law. :)

> Another couple of cards you forgot to mention from UW:
>
> - Metahuman Predjudice. Re-shuffles that brute back into the deck, and
> if its Torgo the nu yen even goes bye-bye.

This is also extremely annoying. Loki managed to use this on one of my
Skwraaaaaark!'s on Saturday. I had just saved up enough to play him and
boom, Skrwaaaaaark! went back into the deck. It ended up working to my
benefit as I suddenly had my 11 nuyen back (yes, he had a Humanis
Policlubber out) and so I proceeded to buy an Ajax and Mr. Johnson and use
Mr. Johnson once with the "refunded" nuyen. And yes, I rolled a 6 with the
Johnson and proceeded to put Skwraaaaaark! in play for free. So for my 11
nuyen I got my Skwraaaaaark!, Ajax, and Mr. Johnson. All thanks to Loki's
Metahuman Prejudice, which cost him nuyen to play. :)

> - Lone Star Undercover. A randomly present Runner is trashed and adds
> his threat rating to the current LS or Personnel challenge. Think
> about this: Stomper gets trashed and Halloweener Hell suddenly starts
> at 12/11 (A1), or better yet Skwraaaaaak gets trashed and Mage Strike
> Force now starts at 14/14 (A3). Yes, Tony and I checked and Armor is
> part of the threat rating so it gets added in. ;o)

This can be devastating. Especially with a Lone Star Beat Cops (LSBC). Say
you have 2 Skwraaaaaark!'s with 4 skill guys on a run. (Gee, can you tell
which big ugly troll I have in my deck.) You can't sleaze the LSBC because
of the Anti-Social and so your opponent has Skwraaaaaark! #1 arrested. Then
next challenge he uses Lone Star Undercover on your Skwraaaaaark! #2. Now,
your 4 little skill guys are up against a presumably nasty challenge having
to face a Skwraaaaaark! also. Bye-bye runners. Credit for this tactic
should go to Loki as he almost managed to pull this off yesterday but thanks
again to those Luck of Irish's.

> Let me just say Ancient's HQ is great! You get that out and suddenly
> Honda Vikings are +3/+0 (A+3) on your elven gangers. Saturday night I
> had two Redlines out totalling 7 points of Armor (one also had Dermal
> Plating). That's two elves at 7/5 (A4) and 7/3 (A3) not counting
> support Runners. Two turns later I had Muscle Replacement on the first
> redline and Tir Tairngire out. Now the two gangers were usually a 10/6
> (A4) and 8/3 (A3). I won't go into details on when LotP another
> Redline and a Viper hit the table... ;o)
>
> Even funnier was two games before when Wildfire took an Initiation to
> become a ganger. He became an Ancient, got his bike and was tooling
> around as a 5/2 (A6) with 2 Sleeps and a Jinx.

Redline was was 10/6 (A4)!!! It sounds like I left at a good time
yesterday.

Tony
--
Porthos@****.com -- GridSec: SRCard
Porthos' World of Shadowrun: http://members.home.net/porthos/sr/sr.html
Tony's SRTCG Site: http://members.home.net/porthos/srtcg/srtcg.html
Home of the SRTCG Q&A: SRCard's Official Unofficial SRTCG FAQ
Message no. 5
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:09:06 -0800
---Tony Glinka <porthos@****.COM> wrote:
>
> > - Metahuman Predjudice. Re-shuffles that brute back into the deck,
and
> > if its Torgo the nu yen even goes bye-bye.
>
> This is also extremely annoying. Loki managed to use this on one of
my
> Skwraaaaaark!'s on Saturday. I had just saved up enough to play him
and
> boom, Skrwaaaaaark! went back into the deck. It ended up working to
my
> benefit as I suddenly had my 11 nuyen back (yes, he had a Humanis
> Policlubber out) and so I proceeded to buy an Ajax and Mr. Johnson
and use
> Mr. Johnson once with the "refunded" nuyen. And yes, I rolled a 6
with the
> Johnson and proceeded to put Skwraaaaaark! in play for free. So
for my 11
> nuyen I got my Skwraaaaaark!, Ajax, and Mr. Johnson. All thanks to
Loki's
> Metahuman Prejudice, which cost him nuyen to play. :)

You forgot to mention that immediately after bringing them out, you
killed all but one of the two Skwraaaaaaks on a Minefield and he went
home carrying nine points of damage with a Dermal Plating keeping him
alive (more effects of the Loki card). :o)

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/28/98
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 6
From: MLoki <MLoki@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:20:16 EST
In a message dated 98-03-29 18:11:58 EST, you write:

<< Hi!

I´m having considerable difficulty building a strong deck including
Underworld cards. I´ve playtested an Elf/ Mafia deck, but the Trolls
still walk through the Beat´em Up Objectives. I rarely get those Lokis
out/ on hand quick enough, and I can´t pack my deck full of
Troll-targetting Specials for lack of Chgallenges. I hope someone out
there can advise me if I should still use my boring Troll deck, or how
to make a deck that beats it (since our prevailing champ uses quite a
similar one). I think the Torgo danger is still too great to risk an
all-elves deck. ---Felix
>>

Lone Star locks up the big guys as easily as the little ones. If you put a
Lone Star surveilance on your own lockup it makes getting them back out even
more of a gamble.
Message no. 7
From: Matthaw <Matthaw@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:22:28 EST
is underworld out where you live?
Message no. 8
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:51:29 -0800
---Matthaw <Matthaw@***.COM> wrote:
>
> is underworld out where you live?

It's been out for a couple of week's now. At least here in Phoenix.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 3/31/98

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 9
From: Yoda562 <Yoda562@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:50:24 EST
The under world has been out for a week or two and i live in delaware. One of
things that the next expansion should include should be more tecnical mafia
members. Cause in the underworld there are five different mafia members. and
you can only recrute four more.
Message no. 10
From: "MICHAEL J. HOFSISS" <michael.j.hofsiss@***.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:43:43 -0800
I am currently working on a Mafia/Yakuza/corruption deck, where the theme is
just total evil. This is in response to the deck my close counterpart is
making, a total law abiding deck, not a complete lone star deck, but close.
Since we both have an affinity towards magic users, we have them in both decks
to this point. Maybe I am too new to the list, but we have been playing for a
while and she has always had more elves than me and done quite well. I do not
think more Lokis is the answer, and if you want to keep it strictly elf/mafia,
any lone star cards will through off your theme (remember, I am a traditionalist
here). I would love to see your deck to get a better idea of how you have
constructed it. A suggestion I would have is to place some of the more powerful
samurai or other such elf cards in the deck. Yes, they are not specifically
mafia, but think about it, the mafia would hire both samurai and mercenaries, so
they would still fit with your theme. Of course, it is early and I could just
be babbling, since I have yet to have a full cup of java. Keep running.

Rosoruach/Leashill

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Author: Shadowrun Trading Card Game Discussion <SRCARD@********.ITRIBE.NET> at
Internet
Date: 4/1/98 9:20 PM


In a message dated 98-03-29 18:11:58 EST, you write:

<< Hi!

I'm having considerable difficulty building a strong deck including
Underworld cards. I've playtested an Elf/ Mafia deck, but the Trolls
still walk through the Beat'em Up Objectives. I rarely get those Lokis
out/ on hand quick enough, and I can't pack my deck full of
Troll-targetting Specials for lack of Chgallenges. I hope someone out
there can advise me if I should still use my boring Troll deck, or how
to make a deck that beats it (since our prevailing champ uses quite a
similar one). I think the Torgo danger is still too great to risk an
all-elves deck. ---Felix
>>

Lone Star locks up the big guys as easily as the little ones. If you put a
Lone Star surveilance on your own lockup it makes getting them back out even
more of a gamble.
Message no. 11
From: Lodewijk Roskott <l.roskott@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:10:30 +0200
Matthaw wrote:
>
> is underworld out where you live?
There is no underworld in holland yet

lood
Message no. 12
From: Quicksilver <qwksilvr@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Underworld & Deck Trouble
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:18:37 -0600
At 09:20 PM 4/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>Lone Star locks up the big guys as easily as the little ones. If you put a
>Lone Star surveilance on your own lockup it makes getting them back out even
>more of a gamble.

Sounds like a good place for a Troll Bouncer :)

Hg
....an analog person, stuck, in a digital world

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