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Message no. 1
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Updated "Present",,,,
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:51:13 -0800
Note: I've edited the "rules" and posted them first, then responded to
Teos' comments after.

1) On a shadowrun. All Runners and revealed Challenges are considered
present to each other.

2) In Runner-on-Runner combat. All attacking and defending Runners on
both sides are present with each other.

3) At a Location or Contact. Multiple Runners who visit the same
Location are present with each other. Runners are present at the last
Location or Contact they visit on that turn. Runners "return" from the
Location during their owner's next Refresh phase (ie, when the Runners
unturn).

4) In the safehouse. This includes all turned and unturned Runners not
present elsewhere.


------------

Abadia, Teos wrote:

This was rather fast and on the fly; I did a bit more thinking today and
came up with a few other problems.

> > 1) On a shadowrun. All Runners and revealed Challenges are considered
> > present to each other.

> > 2) In combat. All Runners on both sides are present with each other.

(Note: slight change to fit RBT a bit better.)

> i would say "All Runners on both sides capable of taking part in the
> combat are present with each other."

This is still a bit slippery; I think "attacking and defending" defines
pretty clearly what roles are intended to be present.

> I don't think that our wording should allow the following:
> I choose 6 unturned runners and use Z-Zone to attack. I then use
> Guard/Biotech from a seventh unturned runner in my safehouse to help one
> of my 6 on the Z-Zone.

Yup. Actually, this falls under several different categories --
HAwkwind can't help them because she's not in the combat; can't help
them because she's not at the Location. I'm not sure I like the last...

3) At a Location. Multiple Runners who visit the same Location are
present with each other. Runners "return" from the Location during
their owner's next Refresh phase (ie, when the Runners unturn).

(Note: added Contacts to this list, which seems fair; there's no way the
Don is gonna stop by your stoop. Yoshimo Chang, incidentally, specifies
a visiting Runner. I could see the same applying to a Runner visiting
the Mr. Black or the Talismonger for gear, etc.)

> I would say "Runners who turn "return" from the ....." since some
> locations do not require you to turn. Also, same for contacts.

Officially, most of the Contacts aren't visited (except Yoshima). Any
Location that is "visited" requires the Runner to turn (per the FAQ and
email from Mike Nielsen).

4) In the safehouse. This includes all turned and unturned Runners.

> I would add "in the safehouse", to make it obvious that you don't mean
> all runners.

And man, that was a huge loophole...

Other thoughts? This might be a nice way to start up a set of
tournament rules....

-Mb
Message no. 2
From: Quicksilver <qwksilvr@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Updated "Present",,,,
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:30:32 -0600
At 10:51 AM 12/11/97 -0800, Matb wrote:

>Note: I've edited the "rules" and posted them first, then responded to

>Teos' comments after.

>

>1) On a shadowrun. All Runners and revealed Challenges are considered

>present to each other.

>

>2) In Runner-on-Runner combat. All attacking and defending Runners on

>both sides are present with each other.

>

>3) At a Location or Contact. Multiple Runners who visit the same

>Location are present with each other. Runners are present at the last

>Location or Contact they visit on that turn. Runners "return" from
the

>Location during their owner's next Refresh phase (ie, when the Runners

>unturn).

>

>4) In the safehouse. This includes all turned and unturned Runners
not

>present elsewhere.


<paraindent><param>left</param>Sorry for the time lag in this response,
but my system has been in and out of the shop for the last few weeks and
I'm trying to catch up....


I know this has been talked to death, and I realize I'm going against the
current here, but.....


As far as Mat's take on 'Present', I tend to agree totally with 1, 2, &
4. However, I find no support in the rules for the addition of rule #3.
You use, or visit, a location or contact. You drop by, take care of your
business and move on. You are never really 'Present' according to the
rules.


I like to look at the game as if one turn represents, say.....a week in
the life of a shadowrun team. They live at the safehouse, run out for a
few short errands, maybe take part in a fight or two, and occasionally
try to score that big job that will boost their reputation.


The way I read the rules, if you're not on a run or in runner-to-runner
combat you must be in the safehouse by default. By that measure, all your
runners will be back at the safehouse at the end of your turn. It's just
that any turned runners are to tired to do anything more until they
'refresh'.

</paraindent>

Hg



Standard Disclaimer: The above are just my opinions. I have been wrong before, I will be
wrong again.
Message no. 3
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Updated "Present",,,,
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:37:15 -0800
Quicksilver wrote:

(snipping rules on present, but leeaving in toto the following:)

> >3) At a Location or Contact. Multiple Runners who visit the same
> >Location are present with each other. Runners are present at the last
> >Location or Contact they visit on that turn. Runners "return" from
> the Location during their owner's next Refresh phase (ie, when the
> Runners unturn).

> As far as Mat's take on 'Present', I tend to agree totally with 1, 2,
> & 4. However, I find no support in the rules for the addition of rule
> #3. You use, or visit, a location or contact. You drop by, take care
> of your business and move on. You are never really 'Present' according
> to the rules.

While not in the RBT, this notion is derived from a comment made by Mike
at Gencon; namely, that GAQS can be used to prevent a Runner from
visiting a Location (and, from that, a Contact; Yoshimo's the only
Contact at the moment that is visited). Since you have to leave the
safehosue to visit, you must (during the "visit") go *somewhere*.

The rule is intended to have two effects. One is to buttress the idea
of present; that there are specific times when Runners are and are not
present in the safehouse. A matter of clarification.

The second is to allow for a number of innovations which aren't
currently implemented in the game. I like the idea of being able to
affect only a small group of Runners, which are "present" with each
other; of Runners as teams being affected as a unit; of stronger
Locations where Runners can stay for periods of time. (After a fashion,
the Safehouse simply becomes another Location using these rules; a
Location with no particular benefits or costs.)

Although I haven't taken them into great consideration myself, there
were a number of thoughts crossing my mind; a Location that only Mafia
Runners could visit, but gave them some special ability while present
there (offhand, say, something like needing to pay extra when targeting
them with Specials, with the Location itself having an upkeep equal to
the number of Runners within.) Or, another Decker hangout, with an
increasing ability to snag Programs from your deck; or a tough-buff
hangout which grants visitors armor or a defensive bonus. The key,
obviously, would be to require Runners to stay awhile (either explicitly
or implicitly).

I tried to make the rules consistent with the official rules; I'd
probably adopt a different term for Runners using "stay" Locations
("move Runner to Club Paradisio.."). There is the drawback that Runners
don't return to the safehouse until they unturn, but it was a matter
that was unclear in the RBT.

So, in a sense, you're right; the rules and cards as they stand don't
need Runner to be present at a Location. I'm looking a bit past that.

Since I'm not a DLOH, however, you can take these as just house rules.
Always like to hear feedback, of any nature.


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 4
From: Quicksilver <qwksilvr@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Updated "Present",,,,
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 02:39:24 -0600
At 05:37 PM 1/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Quicksilver wrote:
>
>(snipping rules on present, but leeaving in toto the following:)
>
>> >3) At a Location or Contact. Multiple Runners who visit the same
>> >Location are present with each other. Runners are present at the last
>> >Location or Contact they visit on that turn. Runners "return" from
>> the Location during their owner's next Refresh phase (ie, when the
>> Runners unturn).
>
>> As far as Mat's take on 'Present', I tend to agree totally with 1, 2,
>> & 4. However, I find no support in the rules for the addition of rule
>> #3. You use, or visit, a location or contact. You drop by, take care
>> of your business and move on. You are never really 'Present' according
>> to the rules.
>
>While not in the RBT, this notion is derived from a comment made by Mike
>at Gencon; namely, that GAQS can be used to prevent a Runner from
>visiting a Location (and, from that, a Contact; Yoshimo's the only
>Contact at the moment that is visited). Since you have to leave the
>safehosue to visit, you must (during the "visit") go *somewhere*.

Yes, but where does it say that you must stay there? That's my contention.
GAQS would be used to keep you from making down to the corner bar (Iron
Lung) in the first place rather than remove you from your hard won stool
after you've found a seat.

<<snippage of some nifty ideas>>

>I tried to make the rules consistent with the official rules; I'd
>probably adopt a different term for Runners using "stay" Locations
>("move Runner to Club Paradisio.."). There is the drawback that Runners
>don't return to the safehouse until they unturn, but it was a matter
>that was unclear in the RBT.

Ok, maybe this is where I'm getting confused. I must've missed the part
that said you don't return to the safehouse until you unturn. Where would I
find that reference? We've always played it that if you're not 'on a
shadowrun' or 'in runner-to-runner combat' that you must be at the only
other 'present' available - the safehouse - whether you're turned or not.
If that is incorrect, please let me know where I can find those rules. If
it's more of a house rule as you say, is it a very common one? Will I need
to stipulate how 'present' works when I organize tournaments and leagues?

>So, in a sense, you're right; the rules and cards as they stand don't
>need Runner to be present at a Location. I'm looking a bit past that.

Expansion is good. I love different ideas (mine don't always work out, but
I keep trying <g>). However, for tournaments, consistency is paramount.

Thanks for your patience,
Hg

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