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Message no. 1
From: David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM>
Subject: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:52:08 -0700
To any and all with an opinion: Can a runner use a Yamaha Rapier to
re-join a shadowrun after being sent back to the safehouse by some card
effect?

For example, when running against Urban Brawl, my opponent GAQs my ball
carrier. If the ball carrier has a Yamaha Rapier, can he/she trash it to
finish the shadowrun?

Thanks in advance!

David
Message no. 2
From: Olaf kramer <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 08:31:29 +0200
David Reis schrieb:
> To any and all with an opinion: Can a runner use a Yamaha Rapier to
> re-join a shadowrun after being sent back to the safehouse by some card
> effect?
>
> For example, when running against Urban Brawl, my opponent GAQs my ball
> carrier. If the ball carrier has a Yamaha Rapier, can he/she trash it to
> finish the shadowrun?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> David

I think aslong as the run not over he can rejoin.

OLAF
Message no. 3
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:53:47 -0700
---David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM> wrote:
>
> To any and all with an opinion: Can a runner use a Yamaha Rapier to
> re-join a shadowrun after being sent back to the safehouse by some card
> effect?
>
> For example, when running against Urban Brawl, my opponent GAQs my ball
> carrier. If the ball carrier has a Yamaha Rapier, can he/she trash it to
> finish the shadowrun?

Good question. It would depend on if the Runner must also be able to turn to
joing the Shadowrun.

IOW Tinkerbell has a Yamaha Rapier. During my Legwork phase I send her to
Shadowland. Because she is now turned, I would think that I wouldn't be able
to later trash her Rapier throw her into a Shadowrun in progress and have her
Social help sleaze a Chomps-2000 that showed up.

That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went home,
also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun via his trashed
Rapier.

-== Loki ==-
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Message no. 4
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:00:46 -0500
>That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went home,
>also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun via his
trashed
>Rapier.

This logic is flawed, Loki. If this were the case, then you couldn't trash
the
Rapier to send yourself home from a Shadowrun because that runner has
to turn to go on a run.
Text from Yamaha Rapier:

Yamaha Rapier
Gear (Vehicle/Bike) / 2¥ Common Outdoor. (A1) to user.
This armor is not cumulative with other armor. Trash to move user from
safehouse to a shadowrun (or vice versa).
Flavor: "It's slick styling makes this fast street machine a go-gang
favorite."
Illustrator: Karl Waller (color: Barry Gregory)

So, by your logic, you couldn't move the user from the Shadowrun to the
Safehouse, which isn't the case by card text.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:05:07 -0700
---Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG> wrote:
>
> >That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went home,
> >also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun via his
> trashed
> >Rapier.
>
> This logic is flawed, Loki. If this were the case, then you couldn't trash
> the
> Rapier to send yourself home from a Shadowrun because that runner has
> to turn to go on a run.
> Text from Yamaha Rapier:
>
> Yamaha Rapier
> Gear (Vehicle/Bike) / 2¥ Common Outdoor. (A1) to user.
> This armor is not cumulative with other armor. Trash to move user from
> safehouse to a shadowrun (or vice versa).
> Flavor: "It's slick styling makes this fast street machine a go-gang
> favorite."
> Illustrator: Karl Waller (color: Barry Gregory)
>
> So, by your logic, you couldn't move the user from the Shadowrun to the
> Safehouse, which isn't the case by card text.

Sure you could. You have to turn a runner to join or go on a Shadowrun. You
don't have to turn them to use gear or specials once on a Shadowrun.

Same reason Red Widow can't join and existing run if she's already been turned
to do something else.

Hence, a Runner already on the run could use the Rapier to return to the
safehouse, but a turned runner could not use the bike to join a run.

Or are you trying to tell me the Rapier is a freebie to let my Tinkerbell go
to Shadowland and then kick in on a run if I need her to later?

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Message no. 6
From: "Bourgault, Patrick" <pbourgau@***.CA>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:07:00 PDT
>That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went
home,
>also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun via his
trashed
>Rapier.

This logic is flawed, Loki. If this were the case, then you couldn't
trash
the
Rapier to send yourself home from a Shadowrun because that runner has
to turn to go on a run.
Text from Yamaha Rapier:

Yamaha Rapier
Gear (Vehicle/Bike) / 2? Common Outdoor. (A1) to user.
This armor is not cumulative with other armor. Trash to move user from
safehouse to a shadowrun (or vice versa).
Flavor: "It's slick styling makes this fast street machine a go-gang
favorite."
Illustrator: Karl Waller (color: Barry Gregory)

So, by your logic, you couldn't move the user from the Shadowrun to the
Safehouse, which isn't the case by card text.

I agree with Sorrow. If I myself follow your logic, I wouldn't be able
to use a gun/spirit/drone/armor/etc. if my turned runner is hit by
Wanted! or the likes. If it is written somewhere that a runner cannot
use gear if turned and excluding SRs, then you're right and I was playing
the game all wrong since day one.

Unless the card says that the runner must be turned/unturned/in a SR to
use the gear, I think you can use a gear anytime.
Message no. 7
From: "a . a" <alphirius@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:11:46 EDT
>>That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went
>home,
>>also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun via his
>trashed
>>Rapier.
>
>This logic is flawed, Loki. If this were the case, then you couldn't
>trash
>the
>Rapier to send yourself home from a Shadowrun because that runner has
>to turn to go on a run.

Actually, the logic isn't flawed..... You turn to go on the shadowrun,
but take part in the shadowrun as though you're not turned..... (Follow)
i.e. you declare Tinkerbell is going on the run, when she's there,
she can attack, dance, sleep, whatever, when she returns from the run,
she's turned..... using the logic that she's already turned and thus
unable to trash the rapier, would also means she's already turned and
unable to do damage to any challenge..... or sleaze it for that
matter..... (Wow, that would make for a boring game..... these guys are
going on a run, oh, they've already turned..... guess they'll just sit
around and die..... Turn's done.....)

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Message no. 8
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:10:26 -0500
>Or are you trying to tell me the Rapier is a freebie to let my Tinkerbell
go
>to Shadowland and then kick in on a run if I need her to later?

Nope, you're right and I'm wrong (I'm such a retard sometimes).
I didn't quite think it through. Was doing too many things at one
time when I responded.

Sorrow
-often feeling left stupid
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:08:24 -0700
---"Bourgault, Patrick" <pbourgau@***.CA> wrote:
>
> I agree with Sorrow. If I myself follow your logic, I wouldn't be able
> to use a gun/spirit/drone/armor/etc. if my turned runner is hit by
> Wanted! or the likes. If it is written somewhere that a runner cannot
> use gear if turned and excluding SRs, then you're right and I was playing
> the game all wrong since day one.
>
> Unless the card says that the runner must be turned/unturned/in a SR to
> use the gear, I think you can use a gear anytime.

Think it through guys. I'm not saying the runner has to turn to use the gear
(Rapier). I'm saying the runner would have to turn to be able to go on the run.

That's wherein the difference lies.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Message no. 10
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:19:13 -0500
>That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went home,
>also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun via his
trashed
>Rapier.

Actually, the more that I think about it, the more I think that it is a
really
sticky situation. If turned runners couldn't use gear, then how is it that
my turned Cannoball is using his Aries Predator to fill that Hellhound
full of holes during a run?

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: "Bourgault, Patrick" <pbourgau@***.CA>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:14:00 PDT
---Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG> wrote:
>
> >That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went
home,
> >also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun via his
> trashed
> >Rapier.
>
> This logic is flawed, Loki. If this were the case, then you couldn't
trash
> the
> Rapier to send yourself home from a Shadowrun because that runner has
> to turn to go on a run.
> Text from Yamaha Rapier:
>
> Yamaha Rapier
> Gear (Vehicle/Bike) / 2? Common Outdoor. (A1) to user.
> This armor is not cumulative with other armor. Trash to move user from
> safehouse to a shadowrun (or vice versa).
> Flavor: "It's slick styling makes this fast street machine a go-gang
> favorite."
> Illustrator: Karl Waller (color: Barry Gregory)
>
> So, by your logic, you couldn't move the user from the Shadowrun to the
> Safehouse, which isn't the case by card text.

Sure you could. You have to turn a runner to join or go on a Shadowrun.
You
don't have to turn them to use gear or specials once on a Shadowrun.

Same reason Red Widow can't join and existing run if she's already been
turned
to do something else.

Hence, a Runner already on the run could use the Rapier to return to the
safehouse, but a turned runner could not use the bike to join a run.

Or are you trying to tell me the Rapier is a freebie to let my Tinkerbell
go
to Shadowland and then kick in on a run if I need her to later?

I follow your logic on a possible abuse here, but remember that this
thing can happen only 4 times per player per game since the gear is
trashed.

I vote still stays with Sorrow. Maybe because this kind of abuse didn't
happens often in the games I played, but I don't think that it is too
much an abuse.

What I would like to know is this : what if a runner with the Rapier in a
team of 6 runners was hit by a GAQS and decides to come back by trashing
the Rapier. Does he count has the 6th or the 7th runner in the team ??
If it is the latest, he can't join the current SR.
Message no. 12
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:23:43 -0500
>Think it through guys. I'm not saying the runner has to turn to use the
gear
>(Rapier). I'm saying the runner would have to turn to be able to go on the
run.
>That's wherein the difference lies.

Doesn't seem to be that big if a difference.
The text says "Trash Rapier to move user from safehouse to a shadowrun
(or vice versa)".
So if you could use the gear (trash) it while turned, then that should be
able
to move you from the Safehouse to the Shadowrun in very much the same
way you could use (trash) it to move you from the Shadowrun to the Safehouse
when you are turned.
This discussion could go on forever. Could you ask the DLOHs about this,
Loki?

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: "Bourgault, Patrick" <pbourgau@***.CA>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:27:00 PDT
---"Bourgault, Patrick" <pbourgau@***.CA> wrote:
>
> I agree with Sorrow. If I myself follow your logic, I wouldn't be able
> to use a gun/spirit/drone/armor/etc. if my turned runner is hit by
> Wanted! or the likes. If it is written somewhere that a runner cannot
> use gear if turned and excluding SRs, then you're right and I was
playing
> the game all wrong since day one.
>
> Unless the card says that the runner must be turned/unturned/in a SR to
> use the gear, I think you can use a gear anytime.

Think it through guys. I'm not saying the runner has to turn to use the
gear
(Rapier). I'm saying the runner would have to turn to be able to go on
the run.

That's wherein the difference lies.

I see your point. The card should say one of those two things : Only
unturned runners can join the current SR or runners that were in the
current run. I think this will clear things out. For now, we played it
like that. Of course, the possible abuse you talked about never hit the
table.
Message no. 14
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:35:29 -0500
>Same reason Red Widow can't join and existing run if she's already been
>turned to do something else.

Except that the text on Red Widow says:

"Turn to send Red Widow to owner's Shadowrun in progress".

There is no text on the Rapier stating that you have to trash the
Rapier and turn the Runner to move from Safehouse to Shadowrun.
While they both have very similar effects, you can't compare using
Red Widow's special to using the Rapier.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: ">>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<<" <axlrose@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:39:36 -0400
At 03:23 PM 9/2/98 -0500, Sorrow wrote:
>>Think it through guys. I'm not saying the runner has to turn to use the
gear (Rapier). >>I'm saying the runner would have to turn to be able to go
on the run. That's wherein >>the difference lies.

>Doesn't seem to be that big if a difference. The text says "Trash Rapier
to move user >from safehouse to a shadowrun (or vice versa)". So if you
could use the gear (trash) >it while turned, then that should be able to
move you from the Safehouse to the >Shadowrun in very much the same way you
could use (trash) it to move you from the >Shadowrun to the Safehouse when
you are turned.
>This discussion could go on forever. Could you ask the DLOHs about this,
Loki?

>Sorrow

Let's see how much more I could muck up this discussion.

Say the ball carrying troll runs into a Maglock. Not having the brains nor
the key to open the thing, he turns and rips the fraggin' thing out of the
wall. The troll would be considered turned, yes? Suddenly he realizes the
White Castles he had for lunch are doing a number on his system, so off he
goes how to relieve himself (the opponent GAQ the turned troll home). Now
I think he could jump on his Japanese bike and smoke the tires off of it (a
reversed GAQ perhaps) and arrives on the scene again. But because he has
already done something 'this turn', technically he is on the scene of the
run, but from a ~realistic~ point of view, he is still squatting and
cruising on the bike in the down time from the rest of the team.

From the point of view of the shadowrun this turn, he played with the maglock.

He was sent home and wants to come back to the run. His travel time occurs
at the end of the maglock turn and the beginning of the next turn.

Then he is back the following turn. Thus two turns have taken place.

Of course, I don't play the game *sigh* so I could be way wrong.
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<
Message no. 16
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:49:55 -0700
---Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG> wrote:
>
> >That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went home,
> >also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun via his
> trashed
> >Rapier.
>
> Actually, the more that I think about it, the more I think that it is a
> really
> sticky situation. If turned runners couldn't use gear, then how is it that
> my turned Cannoball is using his Aries Predator to fill that Hellhound
> full of holes during a run?

Once again, I'm not saying a turned runner cannot use gear.

The simple fact is that a Runner joining a run must turn to do so. Though the
Runner possess the Rapier. He must still turn to go on the run.

If you take having to turn to go on a run out of the loop, you open a can of
worms and areas for abuse. A couple of examples:

1. I can do Legwork activity and then run with the same Runner ( i.e. - I can
send The Mole to the Decker Coffeehouse to try and get gear, and then Rapier
him into a run later in the same turn.)

2. I can Rapier an unturned Canonball onto a run, and since he doesn't have to
turn to join the run I can also use him to intercept my opponent when he goes
next.

This just doesn't make since.

By the rules, a runner joining or assisting a run must turn to do so. Thus I'm
saying a runner using the Rapier to join a run (by rules and logic) must be
able to turn to do it. Thus the GAQS'd runner, already being turned, should
not be able to join (or rejoin) a run in progress as he can't meet that simple
requirement. A runner sent home from Nets would be able to do this, as he goes
home unturned, but a GAQS'd runner could not.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Shadowrun RPG 3rd Edition Playtester. SRTCG Playtester.
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr


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Message no. 17
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:03:39 PDT
Hoi,

>>That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went
>>home, also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun
>>via his trashed Rapier.
>
>Actually, the more that I think about it, the more I think that it is
>a really sticky situation. If turned runners couldn't use gear, then
>how is it that my turned Cannoball is using his Aries Predator to >fill
that Hellhound full of holes during a run?

This is not an issue about turned runners using or not using gear. That
is not the point of the original problem. The problem is (in the case
of a runner being sent home from a shadowrun by whatever means did it)
can a turned runner join a shadowrun. The rule book states very plainly
that only unturned runners can go on a shadowrun.
However it also states that whenever card text conflicts with the rule
book to use the card text. That being the case. A turned runner could
normaly NOT go, join, or rejoin a shadowrun. However in the case of the
rapier the card does NOT say trash to have runner join shadowrun only if
it is not turned. All it says is trash Rapier to have runner join a
shadowrun in progress. So by using card text a runner sent home from a
shadowrun could trash the gear to return.



However... you knew that this would happen. The rule book also clearly
states that a turned runner, not on a shadowrun, can NOT heal, be given
gear, use special abilities, or USE GEAR. This is important. The sent
home runner is no longer on a shadowrun. He is sent home turned, thus
he could not use his gear, as per rule book... IE. Rapier. Nor could
he/she turn to visit a location during the legwork phase and then use
(and trashing it is using it) the rapier to go on a shadowrun.

However... if there ever is a stinger that states play me and you can
send a runner on a shadowrun, then that could effect turned runners as
well as no turned runners. Because it is not a gear - limited to when
gear can be used.

Just my long winded two nuyen.

*** Knife Sharpens on Stone... Man Sharpens on Man ***
*** - Tao ***

Jayden Stormwalker
Donald Arganbright


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Message no. 18
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:11:41 -0500
>However... you knew that this would happen. The rule book also clearly
>states that a turned runner, not on a shadowrun, can NOT heal, be given
>gear, use special abilities, or USE GEAR. This is important. The sent
>home runner is no longer on a shadowrun. He is sent home turned, thus
>he could not use his gear, as per rule book... IE. Rapier. Nor could
>he/she turn to visit a location during the legwork phase and then use
>(and trashing it is using it) the rapier to go on a shadowrun.

Point taken.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: Felix Hoefert <FHoefert@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Yamaha Rapier Question
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:46:15 +0200
Donald Arganbright wrote:
>
> Hoi,
>
> >>That being the case, I would think the GAQS'd ball carrier that went
> >>home, also being turned is now not valid for joining the Shadowrun
> >>via his trashed Rapier.
> >
> >Actually, the more that I think about it, the more I think that it is
> >a really sticky situation. If turned runners couldn't use gear, then
> >how is it that my turned Cannoball is using his Aries Predator to >fill
> that Hellhound full of holes during a run?
>
> This is not an issue about turned runners using or not using gear. That
> is not the point of the original problem. The problem is (in the case
> of a runner being sent home from a shadowrun by whatever means did it)
> can a turned runner join a shadowrun. The rule book states very plainly
> that only unturned runners can go on a shadowrun.
> However it also states that whenever card text conflicts with the rule
> book to use the card text. That being the case. A turned runner could
> normaly NOT go, join, or rejoin a shadowrun. However in the case of the
> rapier the card does NOT say trash to have runner join shadowrun only if
> it is not turned. All it says is trash Rapier to have runner join a
> shadowrun in progress. So by using card text a runner sent home from a
> shadowrun could trash the gear to return.
>
> However... you knew that this would happen. The rule book also clearly
> states that a turned runner, not on a shadowrun, can NOT heal, be given
> gear, use special abilities, or USE GEAR.

I canīt find this in the RBT. Whereīd You find it?
To the discussion, Iīd say that the Rapier isnīt *used* anyway to get
its transport effect. Itīs simply trashed, like the Bulldog Van. The
Bulldog Van may be trashed even if its holder is turned. Loki is right
in saying that card text overrules RBT. ---Felic

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