From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR] Have questions Need "Loki"!
Date:	Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:55:08 -0700

>> This makes sense to me and avoids the "game-wrecking" combo of
>gut-check
>> et. al. and motion detector

>This doesn't make sense to me. By that logic, you've completely
>nullified the usefullness of cards like Motion Detectors, Flock of
>Geese and so forth.

I disagree with that statement. When I read "cannot sleaze cards on
this objective" (a la Motion Detectors), I take "sleaze" to mean
"sleaze via having the proper skills listed on the challenge". I do
/not/ take it to mean "cannot sleaze ANY way at all - either by skills
or by card text".

Otherwise, Motion Detectors can almost completely lock out an objective and
I would vehemently disagree that this is either the proper or logical
ruling. Does the phrase "degenerate deck" mean anything? :-)

>Motion Detecors states "If alarm is triggered, the shadowrun is over
>and this card is permanently attached to the Objective it is currently
>defending. No Runners can sleaze Challenges on runs against this
>Objective."
>
>If you then say subsequent cards take precedence over this, then any
>challenge card that is revealed with a sleaze requirement may be
>sleazed as if the Motion Detectors was never even in play. The same
>would apply to Flock of Geese, Red Alert, and others making these
>cards for the msot part uselss.

Flock of Geese always sets off the alarm. And, yet, if Motion Detectors
has already been set off on that objective, Flock of Geese is utterly
useless. I don't see any problem with that. The game has ample precedent
where certain objectives are useless such as "no outdoor challenges
allowed", for example.

Flock of Geese's advantage is that there are NO SLEAZE SKILLS available
to beat it. It is guaranteed to set off the alarm. Motion Detectors goes
a bit further. And yet, Motion Detectors can be defeated with merely
1 Stealth and 1 Technical. Motion Detectors makes any challenge with
Sleaze Skills on it tougher because that challenge can no longer be
sleazed that way. On the other hand, activated Motion Detectors makes
certain challenges (like Flock of Geese, as we've seen), totally useless
and redundant.

What's the moral of the story? Choose you cards (challenges) so that they
"play well" together. Not an entirely unheard of concept for CCGs. :-)

The bottom line is that your interpretation (absolute) leads to a
degenerate outcome. (Unreachable objectives barring an ultra-specific
card like Rampaging Mutant.) I can't believe that's the way it's
supposed to work.

>> By my "logic" above the ghouls could still be sleazed by sacing a
>runner.
>> This makes "real-world sense" too because even though the alarm was
>ringing
>> the ghouls would stop to eat (as if in the "normal" situation they
>would
>> eat
>> somebody and not think they had broken in).

>Going to the rulebook things (pg 59): " Once a Runner triggers the
>alarm, all Challenges are alerted to the Runners' presence. The
>Runners cannot sleaze Challenges for the remainder of the shadowrun..."
>
>Simply put, now that the alarm is triggered, sleazing is no longer an
>option. Thus you cannot sacrifice a runner to the ghouls to do so.
>
>If you want to continue the idea of a "normal" situation, think of it
>as the ghouls now know the enitre group of runners is there and will
>no longer be happy taking just the lagging one for a snack and
>greedily want to dine one all of the runners. :o)

Well, I'll be the first to admit that "real-world sense" shouldn't
necessarily be invoked to decide how a card works. Game balance and
playability should be the overriding concerns. That said...

In the case of the ghouls, it is my believe that you should still be
able to "sleaze" past the ghouls by sacrificing a runner. (It's even
in "theme" with the quote on the card :-) However, unlike the Motion
Detectors/Maglocks or Motion Detectors/Gutcheck etc., it wouldn't
be a degenerate outcome to rule that you /couldn't/ sac a runner to
get by the ghouls. (After all, you can just fight them, a 5/10 monster.)
It is for consistency sake with Maglocks and Gutcheck etc. that makes
me believe that you should still be able to sac a runner vs. ghouls
even with Motion Detectors active on the objective because it is a
"card text sleaze" as opposed to a "skill sleaze".

FASA should've made the term "sleaze" uniquely related to using skills
to get past an objective. Card text (maglocks, ghouls, gut check, and
dozens of others) that allows another method past should've used different
language than "sleaze" to avoid confusion.

- Brett