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From: ">>>>> Axlrose - ... <<<<<" <axlrose@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Lord Torgo again....He's fun to talk about :)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:09:52 -0400
At 12:41 AM 4/18/98 -0400, Norman wrote:

Sometime ago, Brad wrote this first:
>>So the exact argument that you used for Scatter gaining the benifits of
the Rat Totem >>don't apply to Torgo and LotP? Sounds pretty hipocritical
to me. *shrug* This >>discussion has gotten ridiculous. Will sommeone
please provide some _convincing_ >>argument against this combo, please?

>Note that Scatter is a "Rat Shaman" this does not say that Scatter has a
Rat totem, but >that Scatter has a connection to rats. A Totem is a
specific being, not an idea. Being >a Rat shaman does not mean you have
connected to a specific Rat Totem. On LotP, it is >not the same situation.
A Rat totem does not make you a Rat Shaman, a LotP DOES make >you a Ganger

This is my spin on this argument (which will pretty much kill this thread

I always assumed that Scatter was a shaman of the rat totem. She had the
abilities pretty much bestowed by being a follower of such a totem, but at
the time of the printing of the cards, her abilities were pretty much not
fleshed out. The same goes for Lord Torgo, being the book reading leader
of some gang who's name escapes me at the moment. Underworld introduced
new ideas into the game, so past cards are now affected in ways not
originally planned out.

As I see this, and pretty much Brad does too (I hope so *smirk*), Scatter
is a shaman first with rat being the adjective to the noun shaman. What
many people are debating over is whether or not Lord Torgo is a ganger
first, then a leader OR a leader first, then a ganger.

- Scatter is a shaman of the rat.
- Lord Torgo is a gang member as a leader ("gang member of the leader" is
bad English).
- Lord Torgo is a leader as a gang member...

Using the Shadowrun universe as I see it, Scatter had to be a shaman before
she could become a follower of a rat. I'll disregard any snide statements
that maybe she was a rat along the way... Lord Torgo had to be a ganger
first before being a leader. Loki, our Fearless Leader, had to be a
Shadowrun list member before actually being leader. Granted, with the real
life Loki, and probably Lord Torgo, their status as an underling was short
lived, but they still started at that point.

Now with Leader of the Pack bestowing leadership abilities upon a ganger,
it is argued that Lord Torgo can not be granted higher rites twice - the
extra abilities would most likely make him too powerful. Therefore, under
the same argument for Scatter, she could not be granted another totem
because she already is bestowed 'rat' on her card. When you play a totem
card upon a shaman, would the runner be called <name> the (Bear, Owl, Rat,
or Snake) Shaman or be called <name> the (Bear, Owl, Rat, or Snake) Totem
Shaman? Scatter the Rat Shaman OR Scatter the Rat Totem Shaman? If you
then say that Scatter can be stripped of her totem to be replaced with
another, I feel Lord Torgo should have the same benefits of being stripped
of his leadership to be replaced with another.

My thoughts on the matter for now.
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<


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