From:	Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject:	Back OT on Torgo
Date:	Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:51:24 -0400

If you don't want to read about Torgo anymore, I'm sorry.

otherwise...

BTW, it's pretty long.

On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Norman R. McLeod wrote:

<clip crap about me>

<< A many people, especially me have pointed out, there is technically no
contradiction. I you really want to read to much into it, then you can
see conflicting logic, but technically a Rat Totem will never make any
one a "Rat Shaman", and the DLOH's already confirmed that Scatter does
not receive the benifits of a Rat Totem. >>

Right, and Torgo doesn't recieve the benefits from LotP. Do you play
LotP on a ganger to make them a ganger Leader or to get the +x/+x token?

Fine, even considering this point (which, fictionally it doesn't make
sense and it won't even matter until cards are released that effect
specific shaman types). How can you argue that LT isn't a leagal target
for LotP?

Here are a few of the arguments for or against it. Please let me know
what I'm missing.

LT is a Ganger Leader, not a ganger. Ok, if it's ruled that LT is not a
ganger, then I can accept the ruling. That would mean, the Ganger Leader
contact, Turf War, Street Violence, Gang War and LotP will not affect
the big guy. The argument against this is that how can you be a Leader
and not a member? No, it doesn't make sense, but if you want to argue
against LotP on Torgo, then this is the best way to go (IMO anyways).

There can only be one ganger leader in play. Well, if you play LotP on
Torgo, there is still only one Ganger Leader in play. What's the argument
here?

You can't play LotP on Torgo because he is _already_ a Ganger Leader.
It's already been said that if a team of gangers goes on an initiation,
you simply ignore that part of the text and reap the reputation anyways.
So why can't Torgo ignore the part about becoming a Ganger Leader also?
Yes, he has all the benefits and restrictions for being a Ganger Leader,
but he _doesn't_ have the benefits from LotP.

To explain things fictionally. As my example above, yeah a team of
runners may be gangers, but to show how tough they are, they decide to go
through initiation again. Maybe LotP (fictionally) represents the
Leader's confidence in his men. We already know that Torgo himself is a
bad ass, and I'm sure he knows it too. But when he gets his faith in his
own men, he realizes that absolutely nothing can stop him and as his
numbers grow so does his confidence.

<< So do I, I merely think they intended that she was a Shaman who
sympathised with the Rat, etc. What I meant to do is say, again, that
technically, in SRTCG terms, the "Rat" part of Scatter's "Rat Shaman"
tittle is merely an honorarium, a decoration, as it were, and, as the
Totem cards do not change the tittle of shamans, it is totally
meaningless when it comes to game play. Ganger Leader, since the release
of Underworld, has come to have meaning, and thus it is a different
situation.>>

I highly doubt that FASA's intent was to create an honorary rat shaman or
a rat sympatheser, but technically, in a very twisted way...

I see your point here, and though it does make some sense, when and if
they come out with cards that affect specific shamans, how do you think
they'll designate between the different types of shamen? Will they
reference, "a shaman that has Rat Totem played on them" or will they say
"Rat Shaman"? No, we don't have to worry about it now, but it could
happen. Here's an example card that I had thought up as soon as I heard
how totems would work.

Note, it doesn't further my point, just a thought to end the post.

Medicine Lodge
Location (Magic)
4=Y=
Choose a Totem when Medicine Lodge is put into play. Turn a runner of
that totem to visit Medecine Lodge and roll a d6(+1 for each point of
conjuring):
1-4: No effect. The spirits were silent.
5-6: search your deck for a spirit and put it into your hand.
7+: search your deck for a spirit and put it into play on visiting runner.

Would Scatter be able to visit the Lodge if it was a Rat Lodge? *shrug*,
I'd say yes, but that's just me.

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------