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From: Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lord Torgo again....He's fun to talk about :)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:40:00 -0400
Sorry all, I was dropping the argument because no one was budging, but
since Jon decided to strike my nerve, I'll comment despite the requests
for the debate to be dropped.

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jon Palmer wrote:

<snip old Torgo/LotP debate>
> > Again, I ask for some reasoning based on SRTCG rules why this isn't
> >possible.<<
> >
> >The reason you can't do it lies in the word "becomes". LotP says that
> >target Ganger runner becomes a Ganger laeder". I ahte to resort to this,
> >but here goes…

Then what about The Objective, initiation? If a Ganger Leader can't
become a Ganger Leader, then a Ganger can't become a Ganger and a ganger
shouldn't be eligible to partake in the Initiation objective. It's
already been stated that if a Ganger goes on the Initiation Objective, he
becomes a Ganger, since he's already one, you simply ignore the change (or
addition) of profession. Why wouldn't this apply to Torgo as well?
Simply, ignore the profession change and place an experience token on him.
Maybe, by way of LotP he gains a better understanding of what it means to
lead and thus gains the experience token (it is an experience token,
right?). :)

> >Webster's dictionary defines "becomes" as follows: to be in process of
> >change or development".

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary that I have access to also says, "To come
to be", which could be interpreted as becoming Leader of the Pack. I know
it says, become a Ganger Leader, not Leader of the Pack, but I think it's
irrelevant what the card becomes as long as Torgo is a valid target for
the card. He's a Ganger, there will still only be one Ganger Leader in
play, he doesn't re-become a Leader, he simply gains a higher level of
Leadership, no his Leadership skills don't improve because those have to
do with other people, the higher level of leadership that torgo undergos
comes from the inside.

> >Torgo can't become a Ganger Laeder because HE IS A GANGER LEADER! You
> >can't become a fireman if you are a fireman. A caterpillar changes into
> >a butterfly. A candidate becomes president. Torgo was a Ganger. Then he
> >became a Ganger Leader. Then he became a card. Then he became the
> >subject of a hellish debate…

No, but a Senator can become a President, both are Leaders, the Presidency
is just a higher version of Leadership. Same goes with the fireman
example, though I don't know their ranking system. As far as the
caterpillar goes, your talking physical metamorphical changes, not changes
in profession or personal Leadership.

> This was an awesome post... seeing the wording, I totally agree. Stick it
> in the FAQ!!! You can't become something you already are. Captain Obvious
> strikes again, thwacking hordes of cheeseballs trying to make Lord Torgo
> the Leader of the Pack. Death to cheese! Long live logic!

Only cheeseballs I see are the ones that like carting around hordes of
pages of FAQ's. Makes logical sense to me that LotP should be allowed to
be played on the big man. I personally don't and probably will never play
the combo (I prefer an elven Ancients deck, similar to Loki's), I just
feel strongly enough about it because to me, the way you are viewing it is
"cheese". That's our difference in opinion.

> Okay, I don't usually gloat this much when I come out on the winning side
> of a debate. I just considered this one to be a bit inane, along the lines
> of a 'can the Maze of Ith stop the Serra Angel' ad nauseum (and trust me,
> I'm nauseous) debate.

You may have won as far as what FASA thinks about it (which to a lot of
people is all that's important), but, IMHO, it's still a crappy ruling
that I'd like to see thought out some more.

-the kinder, gentler Brad

Bradley Aaron Rebh


920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402


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