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From: Keldon Mor <Keldon@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Lord Torgo again....He's fun to talk about :)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:21:25 -0500
First off, This is another Torgo message, quick, hit the delete key if
you don't like reading these, there's 30 other messages for you to read.
Second, I apologize for any trouble this thread has induced, but I'd
rather see 20 posts to this thread the see 20 replies to trade lists.
Besides, I thought this was what SRCARD list was about.
Third, I'm enjoying the debate now that it's past the thee conjecture
phase and personally, I'm almost swayed to the other side as the Webster's
dictionary argument is a strong one.

> Webster's dictionary defines "becomes" as follows: to be in process of
> change or development".

The only problem I see with this is that the process of becoming a Ganger
Leader has nothing to do with the targeting of the card. If you were
playing this card and someone SoC'd LotP, he would do before he became a
Ganger Leader or if becoming a Ganger leader was part of the the validation
for legal targets, you wouldn't know that until you rolled the d6. I could
say that I could SoC LoTP to Lord Torgo because you may crap out on the die
roll so the rest of the card becomes null and void. It only states that on
X+, he Becomes a Ganger Leader. Seems to me that this would be way after the
card was played and to late to counter.

On another note, it looks like Ganger, Burned-Out, etc are separate titles
and in addition to professional designations like Mage, Rigger, (Leader?).
Just take a look at The Initiation and it shows how it separates Ganger from
Mage. Perhaps Leader is a professional designation in addition to Ganger.

<<<The Initiation- 20 pts, Bonus: Each Runner present at end of
Shadowrun is now considered a
<<<Ganger in addition to their professional designation (Street Samurai,
Mage, Rigger, etc.).

Keldon Mor

-----Original Message-----
From: hansen <hansen@********.COM.SG>
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: Lord Torgo again....He's fun to talk about :)

>>Torgo can't become a Ganger Laeder because HE IS A GANGER LEADER! You
>>can't become a fireman if you are a fireman. A caterpillar changes into
>>a butterfly. A candidate becomes president. Torgo was a Ganger. Then he
>>became a Ganger Leader. Then he became a card. Then he became the
>>subject of a hellish debate…
>>You can play LotP on torgo, because he IS a Ganger. However, it has no
>>effect because he cannot become what he already is.
>>As for all of you arguing that Torgo can become a Ganger Leader
>Are u sure on this.... IMHO u cannot play LotP on Torgo because he is a
>Ganger Leader. LotP sez play on a Ganger. Along the same thought,
>switchblade does not stay on him if played as a special.
>(Pls comment on this....)
>The initiation : "Each Runner at the end of shadowrun is considered a
>in addition...." ie x profession AND ganger.If u make Torgo a ganger(Torgo
>Ganger and Ganger Leader)... Then try to give him LotP he will become
>(Torgo.Ganger and Ganger Leader and Ganger Leader).(Users of Venn Diagram
>note the 3 are seperate entities although Ganger Leader and Ganger Leader
>are equivilent in value) There are still 2 Ganger Leaders in play...
>Although they are the same runner.....
>The only way I see to get LotP on Torgo is to somehow remove his 1st ganger
>leader trait and make him a ganger (not in any order)


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