From:	Bradley Aaron Rebh <brebh@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Lord Torgo again....He's fun to talk about :)
Date:	Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:09:41 -0400

> > > This shouldn't be an argument, and definitely should *not* be about
> > > winning. If you have a suggestion for a better implementation, or a
> > > better ruling, I'd love to hear it; otherwise, leave the horse alone.
>
> > I thought that's what I was doing, offering a better ruling or at least
> > trying to make sense out of the current one.
>
> Not to be personal, but I haven't heard anything from you that supports
> FASA's ruling -- more along the lines of, "Why didn't they say what they
> meant?"

why would I support something I don't agree with? I'm offering a better
ruling, or one that stays consistant with the way other cards are played.

> Again, if you can come up with a better rationale, fine.

I already have, my oposition (call it what you will) just fails to see it.

> > > (Although the Senator-President example was nice, I still find it
> > > flawed: Presidents are no longer senators. Similarly, if you have a BA
>
> > No, senators aren't presidents, but they're still leaders. Just an
> > attempt to refute the argument by hansen.
>
> Oh, so it really doesn't pertain to the card at all. LotP uses the same
> keyword as LT does; not two different keywords, each belonging to a
> third category.

A senator and a President is a leader the same as Scatter and Shasta with
a Owl Totem played on her are Shaman. Honestly, this was a silly argument
in the first place. I was simply refuting the argument that used senators
and presidents against the LT/LotP debate. It doesn't apply to the card
(that much) and was a bad example on both parts.

> > > in Fine Arts, and go back to school for a BA in Fine Arts, you don't
> > > have a "super BA" -- you have the same degree you came in with.
If the
> > > card specified a different, higher level, it would have used a different
> > > keyword.)
>
> > I wasn't arguing for a "super" version of the ganger leader, I was
simply
> > saying that you still remain the same status (In this case, Ganger
> > Leader), you just "graduate" with more knowledge (In this case, Leader
of
> > the Pack status). Torgo will remain the same level, he just has more
> > experience, hence the experience token.
>
> 'Leader of the Pack' isn't the status that you graduate with: Ganger
> Leader is.

Not arguing with you here, let me rephrase my part to make it easier for
you to grasp.

I was simply saying that you remain the same status (In this case, Ganger
Leader), you just "graduate" with more knowledge (In this case, Leader of
the Pack status). Torgo will remain a Ganger Leader, he just has more
experience, hence the experience token.

It's the same as the education example. I get my BFA in painting. I go
back to school and get my BFA in sculpture. I still only have BFA status,
but I have new experiences and skills.

> The experience token isn't secondary to the effect (the use
> of parentheses in the card text suggests the opposite, actually), which
> itself suggests that Torgo already has his experience.

then why doesn't he start with the token?

> > > ((Incidentally, you *can* go back to school for the same degree,
> > > although it's rarely done, for obvious reasons.))
>
> > I don't know if you meant to, but I think you strengthened my point,
> > thanks Matt.
>
> Your welcome, but I don't see how you might think so. You go back to
> school for a (renewed) BA, and you end up with the same degree you had
> before. Old dog; no new tricks.

EXACTLY! Torgo gets a better understanding of Leadership, he realizes
that getting others to do what he wants isn't the only part of leading,
it's also trusting and earning the respect of his followers, which
strengthens himself.

> And, again, I challenge you to come up with a more convincing argument
> why LotP can't be played on Torgo. Put some energy to work for FASA.

There isn't a convincing argument for this. LotP should be able to be
played on Torgo. thank you...

-----------------------------------------
Bradley Aaron Rebh

brebh@*****.bgsu.edu
http://art.bgsu.edu/~rebh

920 E.Wooster #4
Bowling Green, OH 43402
419.353.2405
-----------------------------------------