From:	Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Vampire Cards and Evil things
Date:	Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:46:37 PST

Hoi,

Mattb wrote...
>An interesting set of cards. I'm not certain I'd go with Vampire
>cards, just as I'm not certain I'd go for having Vampire PCs in my
>Shadowrun RPG game; one or two, maybe, but a deck full of them...
>Corruption tokens are an interesting idea; at first glance it seemed
>they were limited to Mages and Shamans only, and that works pretty
>well; there are a few effects that put them on any Runner. >Shadowrun,
despite a strong injection of fantasy, is still a >cyberpunk/dark future
game; corruption really shouldn't mean much to >hardened shadowrunners.
On the other hand, having a Corrupt Lone >Star Cop sounds like an
interesting idea for a Runner!

I wanted to come up with a punishment for using some of the more "evil"
sort of cards... I came up with the corruption token. It might need to
be renamed something else...

>>Regeneration - runner may once per turn, without turning, heal a
>>number of wounds as per the ammount of regeneration.

Axlrose wrote...
>Is this a trait available to all vampires or just limited to those
>specified by what you have on the character card? Either way, it
>could work if I understand the phrase of "once per turn" as meaning
>the beginning of the owner's turn until the end when another player
>then plays out his cards. A thought - could a vampire regenerate on
>another player's turn along with the owner's own too? That is, if
>three players are playing the game, could a vampire regenerate three
>times - once for each player's turn?

The regeneration is not a trait I have given to all vampires.
Also once per turn means that action can take place anytime from the
beginning of your objective phase to the last seconds of your shadowrun
phase.

>>The last is I decided to go with the limitation on Vampires that
>>during your upkeep phase you must place one -0/-1 wound for each
>>vampire you have in play on a non-vampire runner. If you cannot
>>distribute all of the wounds you must trash a number of vampires
>>equal to the left overs.

Axlrose wrote...
>What happens to a non-vampire runner if said token reduces his >defense
down to 0? Would the character be fragged or trashed?

The runner would be trashed... like any other runner that has their body
reduced to 0.

Axlrose wrote...
>Also, if the optional rule of day and night is in play, would this
>token be distributed each turn or more ~per day~? The same could be
>asked for regeneration above. On that note, maybe vampires would >have
a hinderance for being out during the day, maybe a corruption >token you
created.

I personally think that having a night/day sinerio (while really cool)
is sort of a moot point in the shadowrun universe. Having played the
game for many years, I have yet to participate in a shodowrun that took
place in broad day light... they are almost always done at night...
However I do like the idea of night/day and if a sutiable situation for
dealing with it comes about, it could easily be implimented.

>>Also as I believe that vampires and other creatures have no business
>>collecting rep... I am currently looking for other alternatives to
>>having them win, but currently I'm at a loss.

Axlrose wrote...
>Off the top of my head, if one player is playing to 100 reputation
>points, why not have the vampire player attempt to 'convert' 10
>(100/10 or 1 conversion per 10 reputation points) non-vampire >runners
into vampires? So the first player would be racing to gain >the 100 rep
points while possibly trying to save the vampire >player's non-vampire
runners from becoming vampires! Meanwhile, the >vampire player is
attempting to stop the first player from gaining >those rep points while
creating an army of undead with both his/her >runners and his/her
opponent's also!

Thats a real possibility... I'll have to think about it, and try to keep
it fair.

>>Name - Bacalique
>>Type - Ork Vampire Runner
>>Cost - 8¥
>>Threat - 6/6
>>Skills - None
>>Traits - Stamina, Assention
>>Text - Bacalique is immune to virus tokens and any specials or
>>abilities that would just decrease Bacalique's attack value.
>>Flavor "That which hurts us, only makes us stronger."

Axlrose wrote...
>It seems his (her?) ability to avoid attack value reduction would >make
stingers that affect vampires or corruption tokens a bit >useless. Say
a stinger that blasts vampires with ultra-violet light >has a penalty
involved. Bacalique seems to shrug the whole off. >Maybe a cost should
be involved with that ability.

It actually need to be reworded as that only the attack value is
uneffected by cards... the body value still decreases with corruption or
virus tokens or whatever.

>> Name - Bentean
>> Type - Ork Insect Shaman
>> Cost - 7¥
>> Threat - 4/6
>> Skills - Conjure 2
>> Traits - Stamina
>> Text - All Spirits deployment cost are reduced by 2¥ when >>
deployed on Bentean. During upkeep phase pay 2¥ for each spirit >>
deployed onto Bentean, or trash spirit.
>> Flavor "Power is cheap in the beginning. Its true cost is only
>> realized later."

Mattb Wrote...
>Stat-wise (7Y for a 4/6 with two skills and a trait) this guy is a
>little over-priced; the reduced-cost Spirits evens that out, but it's
>open to abuse: I can drop four (!) City Spirits and four (!) Nature
>Spirits onto Bentean for free (!) -- and then turn him to trade them
>all to another Shaman. So long, Upkeep. At the least, this guy
>should be 'greedy' the way Lurker and Humbug are: no turnie, no
>tradie.

Axlrose wrote...
>Also, you might want to mention that with the spirit cost reduced by >2
Nuyen, a 1 Nuyen cost is minimum.

I hadn't thought about the trading of spirits before... Yes... greed
would be a good way to go... Add the line Bentean cannot trade gear
cards deployed onto him. Actually I had intened to allow his ability to
drop spirits to 0¥ cost... with the added value that you can't trade off
the spririts... you would have to kill them off pretty quickly or that
2¥ per turn adds up.

>> Name Hammendrell

Mattb wrote...
>I'll just repeat that 2D6+8 (!!) is simply too much. 2D6 makes using
>his 'breath weapon' chancy; not that a guy this tough needs to even
>use it.

Axlrose wrote...
>Possibly make him/her unique in nature? Also, with the potential for
>conversions, maybe Hammendrell is immune to such twists in life.

Ok... ok... ok... I got the hint... Enough people have mentioned it.
I'll look into doing somthing to change it...

>> Name - Killeen
>> Type - Bear Shape Shifter Runner
>> Cost - 7¥
>> Threat - 4/4
>> Skills - Conjure 1
>> Traits - None
>> Text - Once per turn Killeen gains +3/+0 and biotech for duration >>
of 1 combat.

Mattb wrote...
>The only problem with this is that Biotech is used between >Challenges
- so combat is over and done with, and his Biotech gone, >before he gets
a chance to use it. I'm not sure what a good fix >would be.

I'm not really sure either... I thought of that after the fact. I'll
have to think about it some more.

>> Name - Komanii
>> Type - Elven Insect Shaman
>> Cost - 5¥
>> Threat - 3/3
>> Skills - Conjure 1
>> Traits - None
>> Text - 2¥ and turn Komanii. Target runner deals no damage during a
>> single combat phase.
>> Flavor "Who could possibly fight within my swarm."

Mattb wrote...
>I think this would be cool if the Runner's Attack rating would be
>reduced by Komanii's Conjure rating, or the number of Spirits (s)he
>was holding, or both. That makes the effects a little less abusive >--
I'm not entirely certain how she'd sneak onto a shadowrun and >stop
Torgo from wailing a Lone Star Patrol if she's lunching at >another
safehouse.

I'm not really sure how it would work in real world situations either...
but it only lasts for 1 combat round... I mainly did it as a deturant
to bully style decks... I'll give it some thought.

>>Name - Kitar Havensteed
>>Type - Elven Vampire Assassin
>>Cost - 7¥
>>Threat - 4/5(A1)
>>Skills - Stealth 2, Melee 1
>>Traits - Regeneration
>>Text - 3¥ Turn Kitar to engage target runner in runner vs. runner
>>combat. Kitar can only attack runners with a higher inital attack
>>rating than his. Place a +1/+1 token on Kitar for every runner
>>Kitar kills in this manor.
>>Flavor - "The strong never pray on the weak... there is no honor in
>>that."

Axlrose wrote...
>Are these combat bonuses permanent in nature? That is, Kitar takes
>out a runner and gains the +1/+1 token. Next turn, a sunlight >stinger
nails him/her for a reduction of -2/-2. So now is Kitar -1/->1 and must
kill another runner to get back to +0/+0 or once the >stinger has
expired, Kitar automatically goes back to the original >+1/+1?

I intended the tokens to be perminat in nature... they could not be
removed and would not go away... So if he has 3 +1/+1 tokens and
someone hits him with a temp -2/-2... he would be only at +1/+1 until
the temp -2/-2 went away.

>> Name - Marshall
>> Type - Elven Toxic Shaman
>> Cost - 4¥
>> Threat - 2/3
>> Skills - Conjure 1
>> Traits - Hermit, Anti-social
>> Text - 1¥ Marshal does not receive the corruption token intended >>
for him.

After some thought change the line of the text to 1¥ and roll D6. 1-2
no effect. 3+ Marshal does not recieve the corruption token intended
for him. This action can only be done once per corruption token.

>>Name - Tourok
>>Type - Human Vampire Rocker
>>Cost - 5¥
>>Threat - 3/4
>>Skills - none
>>Traits - Fame X
>>Text - When deployed frag X non-vampire runners you control. >>Tourok
has Fame = X until end of game. Tourok cannot be deployed >>if you have
no vampire runners in play. Trash Tourok if you have >>no vampires in
play.
>>Flavor - "He only does night concerts... funny how they always get
>>bloody"

Axlrose wrote...
>Whoa - "Fame x ~until end of game~"??? So a whole run of Tenaga >can
boost Tourok into double digits, which could draw even more >runners out
to frag... vicious circle.

Actually its not all that great... the cheapest runners available are
3¥. even if you frag 3 of them to give him fame -3 thats 3 turns where
he just gives you back the money you spent (that doesn't include his
cost.)... it does take time to actually make money using the guy.

>>Name - Alarm
>>Type - Gear/program
>>Cost - 5¥
>>Text - Turn program and pay X¥ and trigger the alarm.
>>Shadowrunning player may immediately pay X¥ to cancel the effect.
>>Flavor "And you thought you were being sneaky"

Axlrose wrote...
>Maybe the shadow running team needs to pay X + 1 Nuyen to shut the
>alarm off. Or maybe they can only turn off the alarm after the
>current challenge is dealt with.

Actually decker decks have far too much money and setting off of the
alarm is a big deal. So I thought it would only be fair for the other
guy if they had to spend the same amount of money... Originally I had
the deckers pay an extra 1 for the effect.

>> Name - Dart Gun
>> Type - Gear/weapon
>> Cost - X+2¥
>> Text - Deploy only onto Yakuza runner. Dart gun is deployed with X
>> -1/-1 virus counters on it. Turn Yakuza runner and remove 1 virus
>> counter and place it on target runner.

Mattb wrote...
>This is (perhaps) a bit much: Yaks already benefit greatly from
>Shuriken and (to a lesser degreee) Poison; now there's *another* >Gear
they can use to waste Runners?

Ya... but have you really ever played a successful yak deck. I chose
the yakuza just because it seemed to fit with their style. I really
wanted to expand the virus token idea... and this sort of weapon just
fits.

Mattb wrote...
>Puzzler: I've got a Dart Gun with 4 Virus tokens on it, when Jade, >who
just used to to waste a wounded Torgo, bites it. The Shopping >Cart
Lady immediately grabs it and stuffs it underneath some old >clothing.
Does it keep the tokens? Why or why not?

Not quite remembering how the shopping cart lady works... (I think you
get the gear for free if she doesn't bite your head off) I would say it
retains its tokens... otherwise if the tokens went away... what would be
the point.

>>Name - Lock out
>>Type - Gear/Program
>>Cost - 4¥
>>Text - Turn program and pay X¥. X runners may not visit target
>>location until end of turn. Owner of lockout may choose the
>>runners.
>>Flavor "Denied!"

Axlrose wrote...
>This for all locations or more matrix based locations? Would be >hard
to see a computer program not allowing access to 'The Docks'...

This would be any location... how does cherry bomb blow up the
shadowlands, or tir tangir, or the painted desert in AEX. You just go
with it.

>> Name - Mantis Spirit
>> Type - Gear/Insect Spirit
>> Cost - 2¥
>> Threat - 8/3
>> Text - Use on outdoor challenges only. Deploy only onto insect >>
shaman.

Mattb wrote...
>Balance this 'un against the Rotodrone: 2Y less, and an additional
>+1/+0 to boot. (The limitation that it only affects Outdoor
>Challenges *is* more constraining, though, and may make up for it >more
than I realize.)

I thought rotodrone... which was what I patterned it after cost 3¥... if
it does cost 4 then raise the cost of Mantis spirit to 3¥

>> Name - Reset
>> Type - Gear/program
>> Cost - 4¥
>> Text - Turn Reset to unturn target turned program.

Mattb wrote...
>This gets _really_ abusive with Sticky Fingers (and do deckers really
>need another 4Y per turn?)

Actually I was think of adding a 1¥ cost to use the program... this
would negate the added income from stickyfingers, Or allowing only 1 in
play at a time. (Per player of course.) Because I can see many other
abuses for this program.

>> Name - Roach Spirit
>> Type - Gear/Insect Spirit
>> Cost - 4¥
>> Threat - 5/5
>> Text - Deploy only onto insect shaman. If challenge was indoors >>
remove all damage tokens from roach spirit at end of combat.
>> Flavor - "You try to kill them all. and they just keep coming."

Mattb wrote...
>This one had me rolling on the floor! I'd probably go a step farther
>and say roll a die when it's killed, and on such-or-such a roll, it
>comes back. Might need to lower the Threat Rating then (...Tom Dowd
>got the bugs *all wrong*, anyway.)

I don't really think the die roll is nessicary... the bug has to survive
the damage in order to remove the damage tokens... it can only soak 4
points of damage. But I could see lowering the threat rating a
little... I'll give it some thought.

>> Name - Toxic Spirit Class 2
>> Type - Gear/Spirit
>> Cost - 5¥
>> Threat - None
>> Text - Trash toxic spirit to trash any just reviled challenge. All
>> runners present receive a -2/-2 corruption token. Corruption >>
tokens cannot be removed.

Mattb wrote...
>OK, this is the one I had the most problems with. 5Y is *nothing*;
>you've already got Shade who gets a Spirit for free, and then a few
>Black Markets, and now Bentean, who gets them at reduced cost. Even
>taking an example like Shade, pop out two Shades, each with a TSC2
>(and this isn't all that difficult, using the Hermetic Library). >Drag
out a Marshall - the guy I pointed out earlier.
>Go on a run. If you're opponent has been stymied for Challenges, you
>might get an Objective with only one or two Challenges defending it;
>if you've got another Runner who's reasonably skilled or reasonably
>buff, you should be able to clear out at least one Challenge.
>
>But! Trash a TSC2; Shade will survive (and if he's only a 1/1, who
>cares? You're not going to fight anything!); so will Marshall,
>although for just 1Y, he's not going to be affected anyway. Next
>Challenge, trash another TSC2; or, if you want, use a Just a Rumor >or
(for that matter) a Suicide Run, targetting the Shade that no >longer
has a Spirit; that saves the Spirit for the last Challenge.
>
>What I'm getting at is that there are already a number of ways of
>clearing out Challenges without facing them; a Spirit that does the
>trick just as nicely just makes Shamans far too powerful.

You have made a very good arguement here. I had forgotten about all of
the other cards available that do this. I *will* have to come up with a
change for this card.

>> Name - Urban Renewal
>> Type - Gear/Spell
>> Cost - 3¥
>> Text - Turn mage and trash spell to trash any location in play.
>> Flavor - "This is one spell that really brings down the house."

Mattb wrote...
>Cheap. I'd at least give a die roll to see if the mage is 'caught in
>the rubble' and gets cacked too.

Axlrose wrote...
>"Hi... my name is Bob Vila with my buddy Norm Abrahm, and today we'll
>rebuild Dante's Inferno ever since that mage blew it up....."

Actually this card does have a die roll. I guess I just left it out.
The text should read... Turn mage and roll D6. 1 no effect and trash
spell. 2-3 no effect. 4-5 trash spell and target location. 6+ frag spell
and trash target location.

>> Name - Unknown Benefactor
>> Type - Gear/Program
>> Cost - 3¥
>> Text - Turn program and roll D6, 1 trash program. 2 no effect, 5+
>> gain 1¥
>> Flavor "The money just keeps coming in weird though.

Mattb wrote...
>This I like, though the Deckers have enough cash already. Maybe >just
as a Contact: Roll D6 at the beginning of your turn, results >the same.

Actually this would make a very good contact... I think I will change
it.

>>Name - Viral Grenade
>>Type - Gear/ Miscellaneous
>>Cost - 2¥
>>Text - Trash Viral Grenade during runner vs. runner combat and >>place
a -1/-1 virus token on all present runners.

Axlrose wrote...
>Maybe this gear card can only be played on merc runners. Grenades
>seem more jungle warfare orientated so... *shrug*.

I can see you point... it would work well on a merc type character...
the yaks got the dart gun... why not give the grenade to the mercs.

>>Name - Faulty Construction
>>Type - Special
>>Cost - 5¥
>>Text - Trash target location.

Axlrose wrote...
>Hmmm, an ability that mimics Cherry Bomb. Maybe you should have
>something about turning a runner with demolitions and/or up the cost
>slightly to alleviate the mimic.

Actually its very cherry bombish... I could easily add the line... turn
runner with demolitions.

>>Name - Over my dead body.
>>Type - Stinger
>>Cost - 5¥
>>Text - Can only be played on opponent Shadowrunning phase with 2 or
>>more unrevealed challenges in play. Target Shadowrunning team must
>>face in runner vs. runner combat a number of unturned runners that
>>you control less than or equal to Shadowrunning team. If 1 member
>>of Shadowrunning team survives they score the objective without
>>facing any more challenges or objective requirements.

Axlrose wrote...
>Sounds like a forced Z-Zone per se with the benefits definitely going
>towards a bully troll deck. Maybe the shadow running team can have
>the option of pulling out once the team is assembled to avoid getting
>decimated, especially if the first challenge put a dent in their
>defenses.

Any time you do anything with runner vs. runner you favor the troll
style decks... its sort of unavoidable. I did intend this card to be a
run stopper with some bad effects. I could lower the cost and add the
line, owner looses 5 rep for every runner he/she send into combat.

>>Name - Touched by evil
>>Type - Special
>>Cost - 4¥
>>Text - Target runner gains a -2/-2 corruption token. Corruption
>>tokens cannot be removed.
>>Flavor - "Hey Mort you don't look so good."

Axlrose wrote...
>Possibly have something along the lines of turning a toxic shaman?

Thats a good idea... helps add to the cost some.

>> Name - Unholy Ritual
>> Type - Special
>> Cost - 1¥
>> Text - Target mage or shaman gains +2 to either sorcery or conjure >>
skill and a -2/-2 corruption token. Corruption tokens cannot be >>
removed

Mattb Wrote...
>This really needs to be limited to targeting only your own Runners --
>who cares if Tempest has Sorcery-6 when he's dead? Touched By Evil
>(which I snipped) had the same problem: Combine this with Shuriken, >or
the Gear you have above, and you can _too easily_ kill off any >other
Runner in play, with nil risk to yourself. Yes, I think there >should
be (some) ways to take out other Runners, but these are a) >too many and
b) without any drawback to the user.

Actually this card was supposed to be able to be played on only your own
runners... while Touched by evil can be played on an opponents runners
it is intended to only be able to be played once per runner.

Mattb wrote...
>Insect Spirits (and 'corrupting' other Runners) should bring a really
>negative Reputation to anyone who uses them; -5 Rep for each
>Corruption you bring into play is about right (especially since >there
are fairly easy ways to craft the Toxic Spirits into attack >puppies:
use a Rapier to go on someone else's shadowrun, and then >zap away with
the Toxic Spirit that infects everyone with -2/-2 >tokens; you're liable
to kill off the entire team, once damage from >the Challenge is taken
into consideration. That's an awful lot of >power for a three card
combo, especially when it's repeatable very >easily.)

I noticed some of those points as well, and I am currently working on
solving some obvious problems... but thats what this list is for...
bouncing ideas and the like.

Mattb wrote...
>But - there are some solid ideas in here. I'd work a bit more
>carefully with the Corruption tokens; keem them limited to the >Insect
or Toxic Shamans that deserve them, and penalize the player >daring
enough to dabble in such diablery; that's the route to go.

I would like to thank Mattb and Axlrose for their first set of comments
on these cards. Revisions will follow and there are bound to be some
changes. Again thanks guys for your input and I look forward to hearing
anything else that comes along.

*** Knife Sharpens on Stone... Man Sharpens on Man ***
*** - Tao ***

Jayden Stormwalker
Donald Arganbright


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