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Message no. 1
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:12:21 -0500
Ereskanti@***.com escribió:
>
> In a message dated 5/31/1999 2:16:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> docwagon101@*****.com writes:
>
> >
> > Btw, what does "Ahuizotl" translate into in English?
>
> IN all honesty, I don't believe it does. Someone I know whom I spoke with a
> couple of weeks ago said the closest *english* translation of the name into a
> single word name would be Alan. (shrug)

NOOO please is only nick not my name

>
> (snipped huge, long, entomological/phonetic, translation)
>
> -K

Ahuizotl

My real name is Edmundo or Edmund
Message no. 2
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:59:32 -0500
> Btw, what does "Ahuizotl" translate into in English?

there is not translation is already a spanish translation of a nahual
Paranormal animal of Aztec culture :-). Or the name of one of the aztec
kings second only form Tizoc in war victories.

Ahuizotl
The phonetic in Nahuat of the name is (? hell how do this sound in
english??)
Message no. 3
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:13:44 -0500
> > So can we get a consensus? Either let us know if you'd like to follow
> > my idea, or come up with your own that you think is better. I'd like to
> > get this initial planning stage out of the way over the next day or
> > two.
> >
> Go for it oh fearful leader, lead us into the fray of chaos and death.... :)
>
> -K

YEAH
Sounds soo cool :-)

Ahuizotl
Message no. 4
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:47:24 -0700 (PDT)
> > Insertion will be required, otherwise it won't be
> a good story. :)
>
> I thought this was a family list! Gah, sorry, bad joke. Forgive me,
I've been up too long...
>
> Pink`

*Doc' thwaps Pink mercilessly...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:00:30 -0700 (PDT)
> And then there's the other question: do both teams succeed in
their goals? Obviously, it would be easy for the heroes to win, but is
that A) realistic given Deus' power, and B) a better plot device than
having one team succeed and one fail? I've never liked the
good-wins-over-evil-just-'cause-it's-good angle, and prefer to have a
little more realism in my fiction. Granted, I could be wrong here, but
what does everyone else think?
>
> -Murder of One

Okay, this is something that will have to be decided upon later, once
we've finalised the composition of the core plot/s.

However, I think I'll take this opportunity to fill everyone in on my
idea for the core threads.

Thread 1 - Renraku or UCAS military team go into the arcology to grab
Dr. Vanessa Cliber and anyone else who might be able to solve the
'Deus' problem. Unfortunately, due to his use of the Renraku Red
Samurai and other security people as 'blues', Deus knows how military
types think. He uses this knowledge to ambush the team. Only one or two
characters survive past the first story they appear in.

Thread 2 - A shadowrunning team go in for their own purposes. A
lover/relative/close friend of one of the teammembers is trapped inside
and they're going to rescue him/her. On the other hand, it could be an
actual teammember who's been captured. They're more unpredictable than
the military team and MOST of them survive.

Conclusions...

Thread 1 - The remnants of the military team do NOT succeed in freeing
Cliber. They do, however, manage to escape the arcology itself.

Thread 2 - The shadow team finds whoever they're looking for. If we
want to be nice, they're intact (or mostly) and they all escape. If we
want to be nasty (and I'm inclined this way), their target has been
captured and experimented on by Deus. The team has to decide whether to
get the person out and try to rebuild his/her mind and body, or end
his/her misery.

At some point in time, the two threads would link up. A possibility -
the shadow team and military team meet through the auspices of the
resistance and plan a strike on the holding pens where both Cliber and
the shadow team's target are supposedly being held. It turns out that
Cliber is not there (and in all probability, never was), but the shadow
team finds their target (with the consequences described above). Then
they all have to leg it out of the arcology, because Deus has gotten
fed up with them and sends a bunch of drones and blues after them.

And everything else goes in the middle...:)

Anyway, that was my initial plan. It looks like we're leaning towards
the idea of the two core threads carrying through all the stories. If
we decide to go with that, though, we then have to decide WHAT those
core threads are going to be. These are just my suggestions, so feel
free to think of your own.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 6
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 13:17:39 +1000
> NOOO please is only nick not my name
>
> >
> > (snipped huge, long, entomological/phonetic, translation)
> >
> > -K
>
> Ahuizotl
>
> My real name is Edmundo or Edmund

Well Eddie,

Youve picked a damn fine nick if you ask me :)

GreyWolf

Ah I wish i could be so original :P~


--
***
"You never listen, do you?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 7
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:17:04 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Okay, this is something that will have to be decided upon later, once
] we've finalised the composition of the core plot/s.
]
] However, I think I'll take this opportunity to fill everyone in on my
] idea for the core threads.

<snip and edit>

] Thread 1 - Renraku or UCAS military team go into the arcology to grab
] Dr. Vanessa Cliber and anyone else who might be able to solve the
] 'Deus' problem. Unfortunately, due to his use of the Renraku Red
] Samurai and other security people as 'blues', Deus knows how military
] types think. He uses this knowledge to ambush the team. Only one or two
] characters survive past the first story they appear in.
]
] Conclusion:
]
] Thread 1 - The remnants of the military team do NOT succeed in freeing
] Cliber. They do, however, manage to escape the arcology itself.

This I like. The fact that some get away saves the story from being
totally dark and depressing, and the organized team being shown as
somehow not as "up to the task" as the shadowrunners fits right in with
the whole point of SR (that the runners are the 'heroes').

] Thread 2 - A shadowrunning team go in for their own purposes. A
] lover/relative/close friend of one of the teammembers is trapped inside
] and they're going to rescue him/her. On the other hand, it could be an
] actual teammember who's been captured. They're more unpredictable than
] the military team and MOST of them survive.
]
] Conclusion:
]
] Thread 2 - The shadow team finds whoever they're looking for.

Good as well. There should only be a couple of deaths on this team,
as the run isn't really important enough to warrant continuing in the
face of 75% losses (unless that's part of their personalities).

] If we want to be nice, they're intact (or mostly) and they all escape.

An option, but not my favourite >:)

] If we want to be nasty, their target has been captured and experimented
] on by Deus. The team has to decide whether to get the person out and
] try to rebuild his/her mind and body, or end his/her misery.

If we go this way, they'd have to get them out, I think. I don't
want to start messing with euthanasia issues, and I'm sure FASA doesn't
really want to either. Besides, the other thread (Strike team) is dark
enough, this should be a bit better. What if the target was dying of a
disease inflicted by Deus (conveniently enough :) and they had to burn
rubber to get out of there? That would add to the
getting-away-from-Deus tension.

] At some point in time, the two threads would link up.

I agree with this, but I don't think it should be for very long. I'd
think this would be best done at the end, or possibly the middle of the
runs. My preference is the end (it's just more climactic).

] Anyway, that was my initial plan. It looks like we're leaning towards
] the idea of the two core threads carrying through all the stories. If
] we decide to go with that, though, we then have to decide WHAT those
] core threads are going to be. These are just my suggestions, so feel
] free to think of your own.

Somebody else toss some ideas up here, I wanna critique them too ;)

-Murder of One
Message no. 8
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:08:17 -0400
Scott Wheelock wrote:

> <SNIPPEROO (TM)>

> Somebody else toss some ideas up here, I wanna critique them too ;)
>
> -Murder of One

So, what about MY idea? That the shadowrunning team (or the Resistance, if
Rand really wants the shadowrunning team to go for a person, just like the
military) is going for the solution the Greens use to dissolve the Leeches.
That would be a major occurrence, but it wouldn't signify the downfall of
Deus.
Here's the entire story as I envision it, plot-wise only:
Team goes in, using the opening on Highway 5. They hook up with the
Resistance really quickly, convince them they are who they say they are, and
then the runners and a few Resistance members head on up to where the Leeches
and the experiments are kept. They kill messily a whole bunch of Greens, and
obtain a vial of the stuff which dissolves Leeches. They sneak off.
As they are leaving, a bunch of Blues attack them. The runners run away, two
of the three Resistance members are killed. The survivor and the runners
hitch up with the rest of the Resistance cell and another one. At that
moment, all hell breaks loose. A huge battle ensues.
Here's where I tie this thread with the other: the huge gunbattle impedes the
progress of the other, military, team and THEY get jumped too. The ferocious
battle carries across floors and levels, through zombie rooms and all over
the Arcology. (For this to work, the Blues, drones, and Greens shoot as badly
as Imperial Stormtroopers when they are on camera). The military team
disengages and goes their merry way. The runners and the Resistance members
continue the pitched battle.
I have two possible endings: 1) The runner carrying the vial with the
solution gets shot, the vial falls, and breaks, or 2) Deus ALLOWED the
runners to get the solution because he'd already evolved the Leeches to a
point where he needed the old ones to go away before he got the new and
improved version on the market.

Critique THAT!!!!!
--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+
M-
Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:29:44 -0700 (PDT)
> ] Thread 1 - The remnants of the military team do NOT succeed in
freeing Cliber. They do, however, manage to escape the arcology itself.
>
> This I like. The fact that some get away saves the story from
being totally dark and depressing, and the organized team being shown
as somehow not as "up to the task" as the shadowrunners fits right in
with the whole point of SR (that the runners are the 'heroes').

Hmmm...never really thought about the latter - good point.

> ] Thread 2 - The shadow team finds whoever they're looking for.
>
> Good as well. There should only be a couple of deaths on this
team, as the run isn't really important enough to warrant continuing in
the face of 75% losses (unless that's part of their personalities).

As I mentioned above, most of this team is to survive.

> ] If we want to be nasty, their target has been captured and
experimented on by Deus. The team has to decide whether to get the
person out and try to rebuild his/her mind and body, or end his/her
misery.
>
> If we go this way, they'd have to get them out, I think. I don't
want to start messing with euthanasia issues, and I'm sure FASA doesn't
really want to either. Besides, the other thread (Strike team) is dark
enough, this should be a bit better. What if the target was dying of a
disease inflicted by Deus (conveniently enough :) and they had to burn
rubber to get out of there? That would add to the
getting-away-from-Deus tension.

Not a bad idea, although I do like the moral dilemma element I
included. Eh - not my decision.

> ] At some point in time, the two threads would link up.
>
> I agree with this, but I don't think it should be for very long.
I'd think this would be best done at the end, or possibly the middle of
the runs. My preference is the end (it's just more climactic).

That's how I envisaged it as well.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:45:45 -0700 (PDT)
> So, what about MY idea? That the shadowrunning team (or the
Resistance, if Rand really wants the shadowrunning team to go for a
person, just like the military) is going for the solution the Greens
use to dissolve the Leeches. That would be a major occurrence, but it
wouldn't signify the downfall of Deus.

Okay, let me just explain something here. The reason I wanted to do the
two teams in the way I described was to contrast them. That's also why
I'd prefer to do a Renraku team to a military team - they're more
obviously self-serving.

The Renraku team is going in because that's what they get paid to do.
The shadow team is going in to save someone who means a lot to them.
The motives of Renraku in ordering the insertion are extremely selfish
- they're trying to save someone in order to save their own asses. The
motives of the shadow team are more philanthropic - they're risking
their own asses trying to save someone else.

And so on and so forth - I had more points, but I've forgotten them due
to a co-worker quoting badly mixed up, totally cliched, proverbs at me.

The point is, though, the two teams are doing similar things for very
different reasons and with very different results. Yes, it's a bit
moralistic, but I think it'd work.

> Here's the entire story as I envision it, plot-wise only: Team goes
in, using the opening on Highway 5. They hook up with the Resistance
really quickly, convince them they are who they say they are, and then
the runners and a few Resistance members head on up to where the
Leeches and the experiments are kept. They kill messily a whole bunch
of Greens, and obtain a vial of the stuff which dissolves Leeches. They
sneak off. As they are leaving, a bunch of Blues attack them. The
runners run away, two of the three Resistance members are killed. The
survivor and the runners hitch up with the rest of the Resistance cell
and another one. At that moment, all hell breaks loose. A huge battle
ensues. Here's where I tie this thread with the other: the huge
gunbattle impedes the progress of the other, military, team and THEY
get jumped too. The ferocious battle carries across floors and levels,
through zombie rooms and all over the Arcology. (For this to work, the
Blues, drones, and Greens shoot as badly as Imperial Stormtroopers when
they are on camera). The military team disengages and goes their merry
way. The runners and the Resistance members continue the pitched
battle. I have two possible endings: 1) The runner carrying the vial
with the solution gets shot, the vial falls, and breaks, or 2) Deus
ALLOWED the runners to get the solution because he'd already evolved
the Leeches to a point where he needed the old ones to go away before
he got the new and improved version on the market.
>
> Critique THAT!!!!!

Woah...

Well, as you can probably guess, Strago, I prefer my idea as the core
goal for the second team. I would, however, be interested in seeing
this done up as your own, individual story.

Things to think about:

I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team killed
off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to hook up
with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save them.

The motivation to grab the stuff to dissolve the leeches is more likely
to come from the Resistance than from outside the arcology - and it
certainly wouldn't come from a private citizen. The Resistance would
know about the leeches and would want the 'serum' in order to
facilitate their rescues. Renraku and the UCAS Military would probably
know about the leeches, but there are still problems there. They may
not care, because they would only need the stuff to destroy the leeches
to make it easier to break in, and if they really wanted in, missiles
and MBTs could bust in pretty much just as easily whether the leeches
were there or not. If they DID care, they'd send their own people in.
The only reason I can see corps sending shadowrunners into the arcology
would be if they were rivals of Renraku and they were after
experimental tech, or researchers trapped inside, because that would
give them deniability. For legitimate purposes (helping to free the
arcology, as this is), they'd be more likely to use their own people,
who they know they can trust. Only private citizens would really hire a
shadow team for something like this, because they don't have their own
resources, and even then, I can't see a private citizen really having
enough knowledge or interest to set up a job like that.

So my thinking is that it would go over best as one of the short
stories. To tie it in, you could have the Resistance cell the
Renraku/military team survivors have joined going to do this mission.
The team survivors agree to help because by this time they've heard
that Deus has Cliber (untrue) and they need the Resistance people's
help to get to her. You could also have them bump into the shadow team
if you wanted.

You'd have to be careful, though - the Resistance operates by cutting
and running, not by engaging in stand-up fights with the blues and the
drones. If you REALLY want this pitched battle happening, cut it down a
bit - a running battle makes sense, with the military/Renraku team and
the Resistance members trying to shoot their way out and escape Deus'
goons and Deus trying to catch them. It would also probably make sense
to have this as a multi-cell operation - you said two, I say you'll
need a few more. I don't see any Resistance cell being bigger than 10
people in size. Otherwise the purpose of having a cell structure falls
apart.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I think it'd work best adapted as a short
story. Let's see what everyone else says...(to be continued in my next message...)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 11
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 16:49:36 +1000
> > If we go this way, they'd have to get them out, I think. I don't
> want to start messing with euthanasia issues, and I'm sure FASA doesn't
> really want to either. Besides, the other thread (Strike team) is dark
> enough, this should be a bit better. What if the target was dying of a
> disease inflicted by Deus (conveniently enough :) and they had to burn
> rubber to get out of there? That would add to the
> getting-away-from-Deus tension.
>
> Not a bad idea, although I do like the moral dilemma element I
> included. Eh - not my decision.

The morality of the issue can still be played out, but the final decision
is always going to be getting out (with or without Deus on the tail). I
agree that FASA isnt going to want to have the story going anywhere near
the bad PR issues of euthanasia or DR.Death (that guy who advocates
Euthanasia). Im not making a comment on the issue itself (so please dont
think I am - tho I do have my own opinion), but FASA and shadowrun are
fantasy and enjoyable.. not something to air private or public views on
issues that are current.


> > ] At some point in time, the two threads would link up.
> >
> > I agree with this, but I don't think it should be for very long.
> I'd think this would be best done at the end, or possibly the middle of
> the runs. My preference is the end (it's just more climactic).
>
> That's how I envisaged it as well.

Is there anything wrong with one thread "commenting" on something
happening in the other thread. To illustrate:

The runner team are moving through one of the upper levels of a internal
plaza when a fire fight ensues down below. The runners look over and see
the incursion of the military team in process.. but hey they aint gonna get
involved.. there is too much heavy firepower flying for anything but a mad
scramble towards somewhere a lot further awat and thus a lot safer..

Hows that sort of thing for you?

Ive got to get a better signature.. anyone want to write me one? (shadowrun
related).

GreyWolf
--
***
"You never listen, do you?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 12
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 16:57:58 +1000
> Okay, let me just explain something here. The reason I wanted to do the
> two teams in the way I described was to contrast them. That's also why
> I'd prefer to do a Renraku team to a military team - they're more
> obviously self-serving.
>
> The Renraku team is going in because that's what they get paid to do.
> The shadow team is going in to save someone who means a lot to them.
> The motives of Renraku in ordering the insertion are extremely selfish
> - they're trying to save someone in order to save their own asses. The
> motives of the shadow team are more philanthropic - they're risking
> their own asses trying to save someone else.

I like the contrast between the two. It should work well if this is what happens.


> I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team killed
> off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to hook up
> with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save them.

Maybe not the first story.. but perhaps a few more onwards. The military thread
shouldnt be shut down too quickly initially. Remember that if you write them in longer
you can do editing later to make it more to your liking. Cut them down from the start
and you cant edit them back in without a whole lot more work.


> who they know they can trust. Only private citizens would really hire a
> shadow team for something like this, because they don't have their own
> resources, and even then, I can't see a private citizen really having
> enough knowledge or interest to set up a job like that.

Sadly I must agree.. I cant see any private citizen having that much of a problem with
the leeches and the serum. I can see a private citizen getting a shadowteam to get out
a loved one from the archology.. but not too many other ideas.. However stranger
things have ben known to happen.

Perhaps the miltary or renraku team may think the shadow team is there to steal the
serum before they can get to it? That would complicate things a bit wouldnt it?


> need a few more. I don't see any Resistance cell being bigger than 10
> people in size. Otherwise the purpose of having a cell structure falls
> apart.

Id say more like 12-15 per cell actually if you wanted to make them a bit bigger. The
resisitance cells in several wars have been that large or larger in certain
circumstances.

GreyWolf
Message no. 13
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
> > Not a bad idea, although I do like the moral dilemma element I
included. Eh - not my decision.
>
> The morality of the issue can still be played out, but the final
decision is always going to be getting out (with or without Deus on the
tail). I agree that FASA isnt going to want to have the story going
anywhere near the bad PR issues of euthanasia or DR.Death (that guy who
advocates Euthanasia). Im not making a comment on the issue itself (so
please dont think I am - tho I do have my own opinion), but FASA and
shadowrun are fantasy and enjoyable.. not something to air private or
public views on issues that are current.

Personally, I fail to see how having a group of characters in a novel
decide to end a friend's absolutely HORRENDOUS suffering, especially
because it would be very doubtful that they'd live to see a doctor
(which is how I saw it) would reflect FASA taking a stance on
euthanasia.

But I take your point. Anyway, we could always have them decide to try
to save the person and then have the person die on the way out if we
wanted to be morbid and grim.

> Is there anything wrong with one thread "commenting" on something
happening in the other thread. To illustrate:

Not at all, although your particular example probably wouldn't work, as
it looks like, in order to allow Scott Wheelock to write his story set
on the OUTSIDE of the Arcology, the Renraku/military team would have to
go in first.

Don't forget, you don't have to write on either thread, as long as you
include something to advance one plot or the other - or both. BUT, if
you wish, you CAN write your story around either of the core threads.

Also, everything that I've written above only works on the assumption
that we're going ENTIRELY with my idea for the core threads. Like I
said, I'll be addressing that issue shortly.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 14
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 17:09:34 +1000
> Personally, I fail to see how having a group of characters in a novel
> decide to end a friend's absolutely HORRENDOUS suffering, especially
> because it would be very doubtful that they'd live to see a doctor
> (which is how I saw it) would reflect FASA taking a stance on
> euthanasia.
>
> But I take your point. Anyway, we could always have them decide to try
> to save the person and then have the person die on the way out if we
> wanted to be morbid and grim.

Niether do I, and I agree with you.. but Hey, we all have to work on this,
so lets take everyones opinions into account :)

GreyWolf
Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:27:33 -0700 (PDT)
> > I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team
killed off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to
hook up with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save
them.
>
> Maybe not the first story.. but perhaps a few more onwards. The
military thread shouldnt be shut down too quickly initially. Remember
that if you write them in longer you can do editing later to make it
more to your liking. Cut them down from the start and you cant edit
them back in without a whole lot more work.

Mmmm...yeah...but it's not so much shutting them down as changing their
focus. Instead of relying on each other, the survivors are forced to
rely on the Resistance. Plus, it's more dramatic if these tough
professionals start getting the drek kicked out of them almost as soon
as they hit the arc.

> Perhaps the miltary or renraku team may think the shadow team is
there to steal the serum before they can get to it? That would
complicate things a bit wouldnt it?

Complicate, yes, but not necessarily in a good way. This would be a
good thing to explore in a novel. In an anthology where only half or
less of the stories will focus on these characters, the conflict
engendered would probably be too large in scale. Yeah, this is
something we could probably use, but only along the lines of the
Resistance initially getting the wrong idea, popping off a few caps at
the runners, but then getting things sorted out.

Plus, the Resistance members are less likely to take hostile action if
it looks like someone got there before them. Most of the Resistance
members are ordinary Joes - they'd probably try to persuade
nasty-looking runners with bigs guns to share the formula, rather than
trying to blow them away.

> Id say more like 12-15 per cell actually if you wanted to make them a
bit bigger. The resisitance cells in several wars have been that large
or larger in certain circumstances.
> GreyWolf

Yes, but the Resistance cells have different considerations to
resistance cells in wars. In a war, the resistance is opposed to the
invaders, but both sides are still human. So they can afford to have
more members, because the invaders wouldn't take action against them if
they just saw them.

Conditions are different in the arc. There, you're either a banded or a
drone, who are working for Deus, or you're human, in which case, you're
automatically opposed to Deus. There are large (and usually obvious)
distinctions between the two sides. If a Resistance cell is spotted by
Deus' goons, then the goons will KNOW they're Resistance members and
take them out. Stealth is the name of the game in the arc. If you want
to survive, you have to be able to hide from Deus' troops. That's why
Resistance cells have to be fairly small. If they get too big, then
they're too easily found out and eliminated.

Make sense?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 16
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 17:29:48 +1000
> Conditions are different in the arc. There, you're either a banded or a
> drone, who are working for Deus, or you're human, in which case, you're
> automatically opposed to Deus. There are large (and usually obvious)
> distinctions between the two sides. If a Resistance cell is spotted by
> Deus' goons, then the goons will KNOW they're Resistance members and
> take them out. Stealth is the name of the game in the arc. If you want
> to survive, you have to be able to hide from Deus' troops. That's why
> Resistance cells have to be fairly small. If they get too big, then
> they're too easily found out and eliminated.
>
> Make sense?

Actually it does...


GreyWolf
Message no. 17
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:39:23 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Strago."
] So, what about MY idea? That the shadowrunning team (or the Resistance, if
] Rand really wants the shadowrunning team to go for a person, just like the
] military) is going for the solution the Greens use to dissolve the Leeches.
] That would be a major occurrence, but it wouldn't signify the downfall of
] Deus.

I dunno anything about leeches...personally, I've always been opposed
to writing anything that changes major events in Shadowrun (or that
even comes close to doing so). Thus, even though I'm currently writing
a Chicago story, I am not going to include Catherine the Terrible, or
Tamir Grey, or any major players. I just don't feel comfortable doing
that. If the leech thing is too major, I'd have to vote against it,
but if it doesn't matter much, hey, why not?
Of course, even if it weren't the leech thing, it could be something
else. Although I think the hostage thing is good, there are
alternatives. However, I like the parallel between the Strike team
going in after a person, and the runners going in after a person.

] Here's the entire story as I envision it, plot-wise only:
] Team goes in, using the opening on Highway 5. They hook up with the
] Resistance really quickly, convince them they are who they say they are, and
] then the runners and a few Resistance members head on up to where the
Leeches
] and the experiments are kept. They kill messily a whole bunch of Greens, and
] obtain a vial of the stuff which dissolves Leeches. They sneak off.
] As they are leaving, a bunch of Blues attack them. The runners run away, two
] of the three Resistance members are killed. The survivor and the runners
] hitch up with the rest of the Resistance cell and another one. At that
] moment, all hell breaks loose. A huge battle ensues.

A lot of violence so far...but I guess you could argue there's a lot
of setup happening in between each event.

] Here's where I tie this thread with the other: the huge gunbattle
impedes the
] progress of the other, military, team and THEY get jumped too.

I like that.

] The military team disengages and goes their merry way. The runners and the
] Resistance members continue the pitched battle.
] I have two possible endings: 1) The runner carrying the vial with the
] solution gets shot, the vial falls, and breaks, or 2) Deus ALLOWED the
] runners to get the solution because he'd already evolved the Leeches to a
] point where he needed the old ones to go away before he got the new and
] improved version on the market.

And here's the problem...I hate getting them out of there and having
their whole mission be for nothing. That happens to the Strike team.
The runners should enjoy some level of success, in my mind. The reader
should care about both teams (and about all the stories that bump up
against these teams), but should come away feeling like at least one
team had good things happen to it (in the end at least).

All in all though, it seems like a good idea. Not having read RA:S,
I'll throw this out to the masses: Are major gunfights a survival
technique in the Arc, or will they bring down the drones upon the
fighters? That matters, you might have to tone down your fight scenes
(or turn them up!).

Keep the ideas and comments coming, folks. Silence will probably end
up being interpreted as consent!

-Murder of One
Message no. 18
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:26:19 -0500
>
> The Renraku team is going in because that's what they get paid to do.
> The shadow team is going in to save someone who means a lot to them.
> The motives of Renraku in ordering the insertion are extremely selfish
> - they're trying to save someone in order to save their own asses. The
> motives of the shadow team are more philanthropic - they're risking
> their own asses trying to save someone else.

I like it, i would add that the RenORMil team will have SOTA equipment,
training and things like that overconfidence that they are going to have
a piece of cake. The other group maybe have personal problems with each
other. so at the begining they have problems with the "team work". In
the first encounter they have, they only save their ass (what is the
prural asses??) because a 3 party force intervene. (maybe the rebels or
a raccoon shaman :-) ) this make a click in their mind and let them see
the obvious. Work as one or you are going to die.
With the next pages, we are going to read the tranformation of the 2
team, one from "we are the ones" to "run for your lives" the other
from
"first me, second me and third me" to "one for all and all for one".


Opinions :-)

> The point is, though, the two teams are doing similar things for very
> different reasons and with very different results. Yes, it's a bit
> moralistic, but I think it'd work.

Me too.


> > Here's the entire story as I envision it, plot-wise only: Team goes
> he got the new and improved version on the market.
> >
> > Critique THAT!!!!!
>
> Woah...
>
> Well, as you can probably guess, Strago, I prefer my idea as the core
> goal for the second team. I would, however, be interested in seeing
> this done up as your own, individual story.
>
> Things to think about:
>
> I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team killed
> off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to hook up
> with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save them.

Could be but i dont like ti to much.

>
> enough knowledge or interest to set up a job like that.

difficult at best.

>
> So my thinking is that it would go over best as one of the short
> if you wanted.

OK. I live the big idea not the details
>
> You'd have to be careful, though - the Resistance operates by cutting
> people in size. Otherwise the purpose of having a cell structure falls
> apart.

And we need some leadership, i supouse organice arround the red Sam.

Ahuizotl
Message no. 19
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:33:40 -0500
Rand Ratinac escribió:
>
> >
>
> Mmmm...yeah...but it's not so much shutting them down as changing their
> as they hit the arc.

I like it
>
>
> Make sense?

A lot

Ahuizotl
Message no. 20
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:04:18 -0500
> Well Eddie,
>
> Youve picked a damn fine nick if you ask me :)
>

Thanks a lot

> GreyWolf
>
> Ah I wish i could be so original :P~

Is easier when you came from another culture :-P

Ahuizotl

Coatzin (Mag Adp}, Tizoc (SS), Kukulkan(Ph Ad), Huitzilotl(mage),
Quetzalquetzin (SS), Coatl(sham), Totomali (deck),Tonatihu (The Rigger,
now know as the taxista (the taxidriver),Tezozomoc(SS),
Nezahualcoyotl(deck), Huitzilihuitl(SS),Ixtlilxochitl(mage).
Message no. 21
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
> I dunno anything about leeches...personally, I've always been
opposed to writing anything that changes major events in Shadowrun (or
that even comes close to doing so). Thus, even though I'm currently
writing a Chicago story, I am not going to include Catherine the
Terrible, or Tamir Grey, or any major players. I just don't feel
comfortable doing that. If the leech thing is too major, I'd have to
vote against it, but if it doesn't matter much, hey, why not?

Personally, I don't think having the Resistance (just the Resistance,
mind) getting the leech formula would be too big a deal. But it would
probably be better, if we go with this, to have the attempt fail in
some way anyway.


> And here's the problem...I hate getting them out of there and
having their whole mission be for nothing. That happens to the Strike
team. The runners should enjoy some level of success, in my mind. The
reader should care about both teams (and about all the stories that
bump up against these teams), but should come away feeling like at
least one team had good things happen to it (in the end at least).

Which is why I recommended that this be a short story, not one of the
core threads.


> All in all though, it seems like a good idea. Not having read
RA:S, I'll throw this out to the masses: Are major gunfights a survival
technique in the Arc, or will they bring down the drones upon the
fighters? That matters, you might have to tone down your fight scenes
(or turn them up!).

I believe I've addressed this concern - stealth is the main concern in
the arc. The only time it wouldn't be would be if a heavy hitting
outside team was coming in and getting out quickly and speed (and
firepower) was of more concern. Which is why if Strago wants to do his
big fight scene (and I have no problems with that :) ), I think it'd
have to consist of a bunch of Resistance fighters (and the survivors of
the Renraku/military team, IMO) trying to escape from Deus' troops,
while the drones and blues are trying to catch them.


> Keep the ideas and comments coming, folks. Silence will probably
end up being interpreted as consent!
>
> -Murder of One

I'm afraid that's exactly what I'll interpret silence as.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 22
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:05:08 -0700 (PDT)
> I like it, i would add that the RenORMil team will have SOTA
equipment, training and things like that overconfidence that they are
going to have a piece of cake.

Yes, that's exactly how I saw it - except they'd be professional enough
that they wouldn't expect a TOTAL walkover, but yes, they'd be rather
overconfident.

> The other group maybe have personal problems with each other. so at
the begining they have problems with the "team work". In the first
encounter they have, they only save their ass (what is the prural
asses??) because a 3 party force intervene. (maybe the rebels or a
raccoon shaman :-) ) this make a click in their mind and let them see
the obvious. Work as one or you are going to die.

Asses indeed. Actually, I don't like this so much. Perhaps they'd have
some personality conflicts, but if they're going in to rescue a
friend/teammate/relative etc, then they'd have to get along fairly
well, or they'd never risk their lives. And they'd CERTAINLY have to
work well as a team, otherwise Deus' troops would eat them alive.

Maybe change that to: Renraku team - overequipped and overconfident.
Shadow team - well (but not ridiculously) equipped and realistic.

> With the next pages, we are going to read the tranformation of the 2
team, one from "we are the ones" to "run for your lives" the other
from
"first me, second me and third me" to "one for all and all for one".


>
> Opinions :-)

Again, I agree with the first, but with the second - well, if they were
as bad as you're portraying them, I don't think they'd SURVIVE to be
able to reform their attitudes.


> > I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team
killed off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to
hook up with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save
them.
>
> Could be but i dont like ti to much.

Awww! Why not? I think a whole heap of bloodshed could really set the
scene in the early stages of the book. :)

No, seriously, you're not the first person to say you don't think it's
a good idea to inflict heavy casualties on the Renraku team from the
outset - why do you say that?

See, my reasoning is that a) they're overconfident, which Deus can
certainly use against them and b) Deus has 'assimilated' a whole heap
of Renraku Red Samurai as blues, so he's figured out how those kind of
people operate - so he can anticipate what the Renraku team will do and
can use that against them too. If the Renraku team underestimates Deus
and Deus pretty much knows their tactics, then his troops will rip
through them and a lot of bodies will result.

Okay, guys, what's your reasoning? Why don't you a) like the idea and
b) think it would happen?

> And we need some leadership, i supouse organice arround the red Sam.
>
> Ahuizotl

From RA:S, the leadership of the cells would be made up of surviving
senior Red Samurai, people like Cliber and shadowrunners who've gone in
and joined the Resistance.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 23
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:21:03 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Personally, I don't think having the Resistance (just the Resistance,
> mind) getting the leech formula would be too big a deal. But it would
> probably be better, if we go with this, to have the attempt fail in
> some way anyway.
>

They do fail. I'm just wondering how. Does Deus change the leech
composition, or does the guy who's holding the vial containing the serum
get shot? Or both? Just to REALLY put them down . . .

> > And here's the problem...I hate getting them out of there and
> having their whole mission be for nothing. That happens to the Strike
> team. The runners should enjoy some level of success, in my mind. The
> reader should care about both teams (and about all the stories that
> bump up against these teams), but should come away feeling like at
> least one team had good things happen to it (in the end at least).
>
> Which is why I recommended that this be a short story, not one of the
> core threads.
>

I'll have it for you on Friday for your reading (dis)pleasure.

> > All in all though, it seems like a good idea. Not having read
> RA:S, I'll throw this out to the masses: Are major gunfights a survival
> technique in the Arc, or will they bring down the drones upon the
> fighters? That matters, you might have to tone down your fight scenes
> (or turn them up!).
>
> I believe I've addressed this concern - stealth is the main concern in
> the arc. The only time it wouldn't be would be if a heavy hitting
> outside team was coming in and getting out quickly and speed (and
> firepower) was of more concern. Which is why if Strago wants to do his
> big fight scene (and I have no problems with that :)

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!

> ), I think it'd have to consist of a bunch of Resistance fighters (and
> the survivors of
> the Renraku/military team, IMO) trying to escape from Deus' troops,
> while the drones and blues are trying to catch them.
>
> > Keep the ideas and comments coming, folks. Silence will probably
> end up being interpreted as consent!
> >
> > -Murder of One
>
> I'm afraid that's exactly what I'll interpret silence as.
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.


SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M-
Message no. 24
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:23:08 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Asses indeed. Actually, I don't like this so much. Perhaps they'd have
] some personality conflicts, but if they're going in to rescue a
] friend/teammate/relative etc, then they'd have to get along fairly
] well, or they'd never risk their lives. And they'd CERTAINLY have to
] work well as a team, otherwise Deus' troops would eat them alive.

Well, we could say this: the character who's decided to go in a get
out her/his teammate/friend/relative doesn't have the contacts he/she
needs. He's well off though (perhaps, as the cliche goes, close to
retirement :), and hires a bunch of runners. So, you have the
character, with perhaps a couple good runner friends, making up half
the team, and the hired guns making up the other half. There's a lot
to work with there: good friends, characters who are unknown
quantities, personality conflicts, getting-to-know-you moments,
well-oiled-machine teamwork, blah blah. Sound like a decent plan?

] No, seriously, you're not the first person to say you don't think it's
] a good idea to inflict heavy casualties on the Renraku team from the
] outset - why do you say that?
] Okay, guys, what's your reasoning? Why don't you a) like the idea and
] b) think it would happen?

Well, I hate to just sound like Doc's Yes-Man, but I like it. It's
got a very Aliens feel to it...and consider. If they went in there,
armed to the teeth, cockier than a bus-full of winning hockey players,
and Deus knew their strategies, wouldn't they get the pus bonked right
out of them? I think so.

An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
accessible to most.

-Murder of One
Message no. 25
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:39:09 +1000
> Coatzin (Mag Adp}, Tizoc (SS), Kukulkan(Ph Ad), Huitzilotl(mage),
> Quetzalquetzin (SS), Coatl(sham), Totomali (deck),Tonatihu (The Rigger,
> now know as the taxista (the taxidriver),Tezozomoc(SS),
> Nezahualcoyotl(deck), Huitzilihuitl(SS),Ixtlilxochitl(mage).

Now that cracks me up.. a rigger called the taxidriver :)

GreyWolf

--
***
"You never listen, do you?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 26
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:45:40 -0400
Scott Wheelock wrote:

> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
> ] Asses indeed. Actually, I don't like this so much. Perhaps they'd have
> ] some personality conflicts, but if they're going in to rescue a
> ] friend/teammate/relative etc, then they'd have to get along fairly
> ] well, or they'd never risk their lives. And they'd CERTAINLY have to
> ] work well as a team, otherwise Deus' troops would eat them alive.
>
> Well, we could say this: the character who's decided to go in a get
> out her/his teammate/friend/relative doesn't have the contacts he/she
> needs. He's well off though (perhaps, as the cliche goes, close to
> retirement :), and hires a bunch of runners. So, you have the
> character, with perhaps a couple good runner friends, making up half
> the team, and the hired guns making up the other half. There's a lot
> to work with there: good friends, characters who are unknown
> quantities, personality conflicts, getting-to-know-you moments,
> well-oiled-machine teamwork, blah blah. Sound like a decent plan?
>
> ] No, seriously, you're not the first person to say you don't think it's
> ] a good idea to inflict heavy casualties on the Renraku team from the
> ] outset - why do you say that?
> ] Okay, guys, what's your reasoning? Why don't you a) like the idea and
> ] b) think it would happen?
>
> Well, I hate to just sound like Doc's Yes-Man, but I like it. It's
> got a very Aliens feel to it...and consider. If they went in there,
> armed to the teeth, cockier than a bus-full of winning hockey players,
> and Deus knew their strategies, wouldn't they get the pus bonked right
> out of them? I think so.
>
> An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
> situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
> RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
> accessible to most.
>
> -Murder of One

Now THIS is a nifty idea. The Renraku team (maybe even made up of people
who worked day-to-day in the Arc) know the layout of the place (or so they
think), before Deus played with it ;^P, and so that makes them even MORE
cocky. The Shadow team, OTOH, read the RA:S file on Shadowland, and know
what to expect. They're better in EVERY way, except for firepower, but they
don't need a lot of firepower.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M-
Message no. 27
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:50:45 +1000
> > I like it, i would add that the RenORMil team will have SOTA
> equipment, training and things like that overconfidence that they are
> going to have a piece of cake.
>
> Yes, that's exactly how I saw it - except they'd be professional enough
> that they wouldn't expect a TOTAL walkover, but yes, they'd be rather
> overconfident.

How many other teams have tried to go into the arc? How many succeeded?

These are the "fictional" type of military then? The ones who ignore prior
experience in favour of bravado?
If they werent written this way id say that most of them are under direct
orders to hit the plex and are probably browning their trousers at the
thought of it..
IMHO...


> Maybe change that to: Renraku team - overequipped and overconfident.
> Shadow team - well (but not ridiculously) equipped and realistic.

Sounds normal.. shadow teams are usualy less well equipped than corp or Mil
teams.. Note I did say "Usually"... there have been exceptions.. but this
probably shouldnt be one of them. The contrast between well equiped and
failure and badly equipped and partial success shouldnt be thrown away.


> See, my reasoning is that a) they're overconfident, which Deus can
> certainly use against them and b) Deus has 'assimilated' a whole heap
> of Renraku Red Samurai as blues, so he's figured out how those kind of
> people operate - so he can anticipate what the Renraku team will do and
> can use that against them too. If the Renraku team underestimates Deus
> and Deus pretty much knows their tactics, then his troops will rip
> through them and a lot of bodies will result.

Probably, but you have to remember that the red sams are trained to resist
this w\sort of thing (even if they are browning their trousers.. and elite
troops with experience are better than an AI still learning stuff. It was
the blues who had the experience and as I understand it, they are little
better than drones now - they dont have the experience anymore - and they
dont have too much else either... do they?)


> >From RA:S, the leadership of the cells would be made up of surviving
> senior Red Samurai, people like Cliber and shadowrunners who've gone in
> and joined the Resistance.

Id agree with that.. though I think there would be some technical wizzes
who are in there too - but who arent shadowrunners but pure civvy techs..
so to speak.. for example. There would be others too..

My 2 nuyen...

GreyWolf
Message no. 28
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:31:37 -0400
> Awww! Why not? I think a whole heap of bloodshed could really set the
> scene in the early stages of the book. :)

I'm all for bloodbath. Makes everyone else wary. Also makes the winning
side look unbeatable until the runners hit them. Gotta root for that
underdog. If the first wave doesn't have any trouble with these guys, why
send in runners at all?

> From RA:S, the leadership of the cells would be made up of surviving
> senior Red Samurai, people like Cliber and shadowrunners who've gone in
> and joined the Resistance.

I'm thinkin' that the Reds, while not being killed down to the last man,
would certainly get themselves trashed on the first tangle. There ought to
be some left though, that'd join up with the new comers. After all,
everyone needs a guide. And I agree that Cliber would bug out as soon as
possible. Total loss IS total loss, after all.

Pink`
Who's still hunting for that darn book
Message no. 29
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:16:16 -0700 (PDT)
> Well, we could say this: the character who's decided to go in a get
out her/his teammate/friend/relative doesn't have the contacts he/she
needs. He's well off though (perhaps, as the cliche goes, close to
retirement :), and hires a bunch of runners. So, you have the
character, with perhaps a couple good runner friends, making up half
the team, and the hired guns making up the other half. There's a lot
to work with there: good friends, characters who are unknown
quantities, personality conflicts, getting-to-know-you moments,
well-oiled-machine teamwork, blah blah. Sound like a decent plan?

Yep, that does. I wasn't intending to write the introductory story for
these guys myself, so it's not my problem really. It does sound
workable, though. Just a couple of points - a) the runners have to be
professional enough that though they may not like each other, they
follow orders well enough to stay alive, and b) don't go too overboard
- most of these issues will have to be resolved, or at least buried for
the good of the team, in their introductory story.

> Well, I hate to just sound like Doc's Yes-Man, but I like it. It's
got a very Aliens feel to it...and consider. If they went in there,
armed to the teeth, cockier than a bus-full of winning hockey players,
and Deus knew their strategies, wouldn't they get the pus bonked right
out of them? I think so.

*Doc' slips Scott a wad of money under the table...*

8-)

Seriously, though, with this premise it makes sense that the Renraku
team is going to get chewed up bad. Plus, we want to teach them a
lesson. :) Not so badly that they become impotent, but enough that,
like I said, they change focus. The survivors will hook up with the
Resistance cell that saves their hides and that thread will,
effectively become the "Renraku Team plus Resistance cell" thread.

> An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
accessible to most.
>
> -Murder of One

That's exactly what RA:S is. The runners would know that much, but no
more - or at least, not much. In fact, I think the best way for the
runners to get into the arc would be via the Ork Underground. The
Renraku team, on the other hand, would know layouts and all sorts of
stuff about the arc - but they wouldn't have too much knowledge of
what's been happening inside. What knowledge they DO have would be
dated, as Renraku's access has been restricted since the UCAS military
took over.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 30
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:56:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > > I like it, i would add that the RenORMil team will have SOTA
equipment, training and things like that overconfidence that they are
going to have a piece of cake.
> >
> > Yes, that's exactly how I saw it - except they'd be professional
enough that they wouldn't expect a TOTAL walkover, but yes, they'd be
rather overconfident.
>
> How many other teams have tried to go into the arc? How many
succeeded?
>
> These are the "fictional" type of military then? The ones who ignore
prior experience in favour of bravado? If they werent written this way
id say that most of them are under direct orders to hit the plex and
are probably browning their trousers at the thought of it.. IMHO...

Well, okay - I think I should have phrased that better. It also goes
back to these comments made by Scott and Strago:

> > An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
accessible to most.
> > -Murder of One
>
> Now THIS is a nifty idea. The Renraku team (maybe even made up of
people who worked day-to-day in the Arc) know the layout of the place
(or so they think), before Deus played with it ;^P, and so that makes
them even MORE cocky. The Shadow team, OTOH, read the RA:S file on
Shadowland, and know what to expect. They're better in EVERY way,
except for firepower, but they don't need a lot of firepower.
> --Strago

Okay - the Renraku team would NOT be 'day-to-day' Red Samurai. They'd
be a black-ops team, like the one described in RA:S (Condor, Eagle,
Control, Ferret etc.). They would not, as has apparently been
suggested, be TOTALLY overconfident. They WOULD, however, be confident
in their skills ("Hey, we're the nastiest of the nasty black-ops teams
Renraku has!") and in their ability to carry out their mission. Having
heaps of top-notch equipment and detailed knowledge of the layout of
the arc, plus data acquired by other teams who've been in and out of
the arc, would enhance this attitude. And in the arc, any level of
confidence is usually overconfidence. So they wouldn't just wander on
in, blasting everything they saw. They would, however, be somewhat
complacent.

The shadowrunners, on the other hand, would be scared but determined
(they have some knowledge of what they're getting into and they know
it's probably worse than they think it is), so they'd be cautious and
careful and paranoid - and that's what would probably save their lives.

> > Maybe change that to: Renraku team - overequipped and
overconfident. Shadow team - well (but not ridiculously) equipped and
realistic.
>
> Sounds normal.. shadow teams are usualy less well equipped than corp
or Mil teams.. Note I did say "Usually"... there have been exceptions..
but this probably shouldnt be one of them.

True - for instance, the Renraku guys can have ANYTHING out of ANY
Shadowrun sourcebook published - BattleTac, tasty drones, etc. etc. The
runners would have to be more limited. They need to be good - but not
over the top.

A note at this point - if anyone's read K's logs of his team's mission
in the arc - that's TOO POWERFUL!! :) For the runners and the Renraku
team, we're looking at a power level maybe halfway between K's guys and
starting runners (or maybe a third of the way on the less-powerful
side). Good, but not superhuman. :)


> Probably, but you have to remember that the red sams are trained to
resist this w\sort of thing (even if they are browning their trousers..
and elite troops with experience are better than an AI still learning
stuff. It was the blues who had the experience and as I understand it,
they are little better than drones now - they dont have the experience
anymore - and they dont have too much else either... do they?)

I'm afraid you don't understand it correctly, Aaron. From RA:S it looks
like all the banded are pretty much normal people. The only difference
is that they have cybernetic implants through which Deus 'controls'
them. Now, he doesn't control people as he would a drone, he exercises
control over their minds so that they obey him - and, in a lot of
cases, WANT to obey him. What you have to remember is that Deus,
although an AI, still follows game rules for directly CONTROLLING
drones. He can only directly control a few at a time. All the others
operate using their pilot ratings. The banded are somewhat similar,
except their 'pilot ratings' are their own knowledge, experience and
initiative. Imagine it as the difference between a control actions and
a control thoughts spell. Deus doesn't take over a person's body as if
they were a drone (control actions), he uses cyberware (and drugs, I
believe) to make people WANT to serve him (control thoughts). So they
still have all their knowledge and expertise - the teams won't be going
up against human-shaped drones, they're going up against Red Samurai
and Renraku security mages and the like. So, yes, they still have all
their tactical knowledge which Deus can use.

The other thing you have to remember is that Deus isn't LEARNING
tactics - he KNOWS tactics. In the form of the AEP, he's been running
the arcology for years and he still has access to his knowledge as the
AEP. He also has access to the data contained in any files in the arc
Matrix, which would include tactical and strategic defense plans,
tactical and strategic training exercises etc. etc. It's quite
frightening how much data Deus has assimilated over the years.
Basically, he knows each and every inch of the arcology and he knows
exactly how to use it against his enemies. The only thing that saves
people is that he can't be everywhere all the time.

> Id agree with that.. though I think there would be some technical
wizzes who are in there too - but who arent shadowrunners but pure
civvy techs.. so to speak.. for example. There would be others too..
> GreyWolf

Oh, they'd be in there, but they'd be unlikely to be in leadership
roles. Leadership would be assumed by people like Cliber, who think
they were born to boss other people around, Red Sammie officers, who
know they should be charge in an emergency situation like this and know
they have the best knowledge base to protect their charges, and
shadowrunners and the like, who have the experience and knowledge, if
not the authority. There may be other types in charge of cells, but
they'd be the exception rather than the rule.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 31
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
> I'm afraid you don't understand it correctly, Aaron. From RA:S it
looks like all the banded are pretty much normal people. The only
difference is that they have cybernetic implants through which Deus
'controls' them.

Brainwashing! That's the word!!

Guys, the banded in the arcology have not had their minds repressed to
the point that they're little more than drones. They've been
brainwashed!

*Doc' slaps his forehead. "Idiot!"*

And what's something everyone knows about people who've been
brainwashed? That's right...they tend to be fanatics...scary thought, neh?
==Doc'
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Message no. 32
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:47:06 -0400
> And what's something everyone knows about people who've been
> brainwashed? That's right...they tend to be fanatics...scary thought, neh?

Well, there is that. And the drool. Ew.

Pink`
Message no. 33
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:11:58 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> ><SNIPPITTY SNIP>
> Seriously, though, with this premise it makes sense that the Renraku
> team is going to get chewed up bad. Plus, we want to teach them a
> lesson. :) Not so badly that they become impotent, but enough that,
> like I said, they change focus. The survivors will hook up with the
> Resistance cell that saves their hides and that thread will,
> effectively become the "Renraku Team plus Resistance cell" thread.
>

So, since I'm writing about a Resistance cell, does that mean the thread
becomes mine?

> > An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
> situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
> RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
> accessible to most.
> >
> > -Murder of One
>
> That's exactly what RA:S is. The runners would know that much, but no
> more - or at least, not much. In fact, I think the best way for the
> runners to get into the arc would be via the Ork Underground. The
> Renraku team, on the other hand, would know layouts and all sorts of
> stuff about the arc - but they wouldn't have too much knowledge of
> what's been happening inside. What knowledge they DO have would be
> dated, as Renraku's access has been restricted since the UCAS military
> took over.
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> _________________________________________________________
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The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.


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gm+ M-
Message no. 34
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:39:18 -0700 (PDT)
> The survivors will hook up with the Resistance cell that saves their
hides and that thread will, effectively become the "Renraku Team plus
Resistance cell" thread.

> So, since I'm writing about a Resistance cell, does that mean the
thread becomes mine?
> --Strago

Yes and no. In that you'd be allowed to do pretty much whatever you
want with the Resistance cell and Renraku survivors and anyone else
involved in your story, yes. If you meant taking it totally off track
so that the Renraku team couldn't reach it's preplanned resolution,
then no. :)

Everyone will have carte blanche with their stories, with the proviso,
of course, that, as I said above, they don't totally screw with the
plans for the core threads.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 35
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:44:51 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Everyone will have carte blanche with their stories, with the proviso,
] of course, that, as I said above, they don't totally screw with the
] plans for the core threads.

And they don't alter the situation in the Arc too much, right?

-Murder of One
Message no. 36
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:53:13 -0700 (PDT)
> ] Everyone will have carte blanche with their stories, with the
proviso, of course, that, as I said above, they don't totally screw
with the plans for the core threads.
>
> And they don't alter the situation in the Arc too much, right?
>
> -Murder of One

Errr...right. That too.

8-)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 37
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:42:40 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > The survivors will hook up with the Resistance cell that saves their
> hides and that thread will, effectively become the "Renraku Team plus
> Resistance cell" thread.
>
> > So, since I'm writing about a Resistance cell, does that mean the
> thread becomes mine?
> > --Strago
>
> Yes and no. In that you'd be allowed to do pretty much whatever you
> want with the Resistance cell and Renraku survivors and anyone else
> involved in your story, yes. If you meant taking it totally off track
> so that the Renraku team couldn't reach it's preplanned resolution,
> then no. :)
>
> Everyone will have carte blanche with their stories, with the proviso,
> of course, that, as I said above, they don't totally screw with the
> plans for the core threads.
>

You're no fun. ;^)

<Strago puts his thumbs in his ears, sticks his tongue at Doc', and goes
thbbbbbbbbb>

> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
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--
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The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the
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gm+ M-
Message no. 38
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:04:27 -0500
Question

The red samuray is man only or are Woman Red samuray?

In the events of RA:S there is a mayor destruction in some public place?
Im lookin for a big catastrofe in a pulbic place in the arc but inside
of them, how was the close of the ARC? Deus close the doors? :-)

Thanks
Ahuizotl
_Looking for a short story
Message no. 39
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:02:02 -0500
,Tonatihu (The Rigger,
> > now know as the taxista (the taxidriver),Tezozomoc(SS),
> > Nezahualcoyotl(deck), Huitzilihuitl(SS),Ixtlilxochitl(mage).
>
> Now that cracks me up.. a rigger called the taxidriver :)

what can i tell you :-)

Ahuizotl
Message no. 40
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:43:19 -0700 (PDT)
> Question
>
> The red samuray is man only or are Woman Red samuray?

Errr...I believe there's both, but I could be wrong. The Red Samurai
could be one of the last bastions of sexism in the world. :)

> In the events of RA:S there is a mayor destruction in some public
place? Im lookin for a big catastrofe in a pulbic place in the arc but
inside of them, how was the close of the ARC? Deus close the doors? :-)

Ummm...I'm not exactly sure what you're asking there, but maybe this'll
help. When Deus took over the arc, there were a lot of people in the
mall areas, shopping etc. Many of these are stilled trapped there.
Estimates range from 10 to 20,000 or even more. There would have been
panic and, yes, that could have led to destruction by terrified people.

Apart from that, well...it really depends what you're thinking of. I'm
sure that there've been firefights, explosions (especially with doll
constructs blowing up) and all sorts of exciting stuff.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 41
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:12:21 -0500
Ereskanti@***.com escribió:
>
> In a message dated 5/31/1999 2:16:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> docwagon101@*****.com writes:
>
> >
> > Btw, what does "Ahuizotl" translate into in English?
>
> IN all honesty, I don't believe it does. Someone I know whom I spoke with a
> couple of weeks ago said the closest *english* translation of the name into a
> single word name would be Alan. (shrug)

NOOO please is only nick not my name

>
> (snipped huge, long, entomological/phonetic, translation)
>
> -K

Ahuizotl

My real name is Edmundo or Edmund
Message no. 42
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:59:32 -0500
> Btw, what does "Ahuizotl" translate into in English?

there is not translation is already a spanish translation of a nahual
Paranormal animal of Aztec culture :-). Or the name of one of the aztec
kings second only form Tizoc in war victories.

Ahuizotl
The phonetic in Nahuat of the name is (? hell how do this sound in
english??)
Message no. 43
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:13:44 -0500
> > So can we get a consensus? Either let us know if you'd like to follow
> > my idea, or come up with your own that you think is better. I'd like to
> > get this initial planning stage out of the way over the next day or
> > two.
> >
> Go for it oh fearful leader, lead us into the fray of chaos and death.... :)
>
> -K

YEAH
Sounds soo cool :-)

Ahuizotl
Message no. 44
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:47:24 -0700 (PDT)
> > Insertion will be required, otherwise it won't be
> a good story. :)
>
> I thought this was a family list! Gah, sorry, bad joke. Forgive me,
I've been up too long...
>
> Pink`

*Doc' thwaps Pink mercilessly...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 45
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:00:30 -0700 (PDT)
> And then there's the other question: do both teams succeed in
their goals? Obviously, it would be easy for the heroes to win, but is
that A) realistic given Deus' power, and B) a better plot device than
having one team succeed and one fail? I've never liked the
good-wins-over-evil-just-'cause-it's-good angle, and prefer to have a
little more realism in my fiction. Granted, I could be wrong here, but
what does everyone else think?
>
> -Murder of One

Okay, this is something that will have to be decided upon later, once
we've finalised the composition of the core plot/s.

However, I think I'll take this opportunity to fill everyone in on my
idea for the core threads.

Thread 1 - Renraku or UCAS military team go into the arcology to grab
Dr. Vanessa Cliber and anyone else who might be able to solve the
'Deus' problem. Unfortunately, due to his use of the Renraku Red
Samurai and other security people as 'blues', Deus knows how military
types think. He uses this knowledge to ambush the team. Only one or two
characters survive past the first story they appear in.

Thread 2 - A shadowrunning team go in for their own purposes. A
lover/relative/close friend of one of the teammembers is trapped inside
and they're going to rescue him/her. On the other hand, it could be an
actual teammember who's been captured. They're more unpredictable than
the military team and MOST of them survive.

Conclusions...

Thread 1 - The remnants of the military team do NOT succeed in freeing
Cliber. They do, however, manage to escape the arcology itself.

Thread 2 - The shadow team finds whoever they're looking for. If we
want to be nice, they're intact (or mostly) and they all escape. If we
want to be nasty (and I'm inclined this way), their target has been
captured and experimented on by Deus. The team has to decide whether to
get the person out and try to rebuild his/her mind and body, or end
his/her misery.

At some point in time, the two threads would link up. A possibility -
the shadow team and military team meet through the auspices of the
resistance and plan a strike on the holding pens where both Cliber and
the shadow team's target are supposedly being held. It turns out that
Cliber is not there (and in all probability, never was), but the shadow
team finds their target (with the consequences described above). Then
they all have to leg it out of the arcology, because Deus has gotten
fed up with them and sends a bunch of drones and blues after them.

And everything else goes in the middle...:)

Anyway, that was my initial plan. It looks like we're leaning towards
the idea of the two core threads carrying through all the stories. If
we decide to go with that, though, we then have to decide WHAT those
core threads are going to be. These are just my suggestions, so feel
free to think of your own.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 46
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 13:17:39 +1000
> NOOO please is only nick not my name
>
> >
> > (snipped huge, long, entomological/phonetic, translation)
> >
> > -K
>
> Ahuizotl
>
> My real name is Edmundo or Edmund

Well Eddie,

Youve picked a damn fine nick if you ask me :)

GreyWolf

Ah I wish i could be so original :P~


--
***
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The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 47
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:17:04 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Okay, this is something that will have to be decided upon later, once
] we've finalised the composition of the core plot/s.
]
] However, I think I'll take this opportunity to fill everyone in on my
] idea for the core threads.

<snip and edit>

] Thread 1 - Renraku or UCAS military team go into the arcology to grab
] Dr. Vanessa Cliber and anyone else who might be able to solve the
] 'Deus' problem. Unfortunately, due to his use of the Renraku Red
] Samurai and other security people as 'blues', Deus knows how military
] types think. He uses this knowledge to ambush the team. Only one or two
] characters survive past the first story they appear in.
]
] Conclusion:
]
] Thread 1 - The remnants of the military team do NOT succeed in freeing
] Cliber. They do, however, manage to escape the arcology itself.

This I like. The fact that some get away saves the story from being
totally dark and depressing, and the organized team being shown as
somehow not as "up to the task" as the shadowrunners fits right in with
the whole point of SR (that the runners are the 'heroes').

] Thread 2 - A shadowrunning team go in for their own purposes. A
] lover/relative/close friend of one of the teammembers is trapped inside
] and they're going to rescue him/her. On the other hand, it could be an
] actual teammember who's been captured. They're more unpredictable than
] the military team and MOST of them survive.
]
] Conclusion:
]
] Thread 2 - The shadow team finds whoever they're looking for.

Good as well. There should only be a couple of deaths on this team,
as the run isn't really important enough to warrant continuing in the
face of 75% losses (unless that's part of their personalities).

] If we want to be nice, they're intact (or mostly) and they all escape.

An option, but not my favourite >:)

] If we want to be nasty, their target has been captured and experimented
] on by Deus. The team has to decide whether to get the person out and
] try to rebuild his/her mind and body, or end his/her misery.

If we go this way, they'd have to get them out, I think. I don't
want to start messing with euthanasia issues, and I'm sure FASA doesn't
really want to either. Besides, the other thread (Strike team) is dark
enough, this should be a bit better. What if the target was dying of a
disease inflicted by Deus (conveniently enough :) and they had to burn
rubber to get out of there? That would add to the
getting-away-from-Deus tension.

] At some point in time, the two threads would link up.

I agree with this, but I don't think it should be for very long. I'd
think this would be best done at the end, or possibly the middle of the
runs. My preference is the end (it's just more climactic).

] Anyway, that was my initial plan. It looks like we're leaning towards
] the idea of the two core threads carrying through all the stories. If
] we decide to go with that, though, we then have to decide WHAT those
] core threads are going to be. These are just my suggestions, so feel
] free to think of your own.

Somebody else toss some ideas up here, I wanna critique them too ;)

-Murder of One
Message no. 48
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:08:17 -0400
Scott Wheelock wrote:

> <SNIPPEROO (TM)>

> Somebody else toss some ideas up here, I wanna critique them too ;)
>
> -Murder of One

So, what about MY idea? That the shadowrunning team (or the Resistance, if
Rand really wants the shadowrunning team to go for a person, just like the
military) is going for the solution the Greens use to dissolve the Leeches.
That would be a major occurrence, but it wouldn't signify the downfall of
Deus.
Here's the entire story as I envision it, plot-wise only:
Team goes in, using the opening on Highway 5. They hook up with the
Resistance really quickly, convince them they are who they say they are, and
then the runners and a few Resistance members head on up to where the Leeches
and the experiments are kept. They kill messily a whole bunch of Greens, and
obtain a vial of the stuff which dissolves Leeches. They sneak off.
As they are leaving, a bunch of Blues attack them. The runners run away, two
of the three Resistance members are killed. The survivor and the runners
hitch up with the rest of the Resistance cell and another one. At that
moment, all hell breaks loose. A huge battle ensues.
Here's where I tie this thread with the other: the huge gunbattle impedes the
progress of the other, military, team and THEY get jumped too. The ferocious
battle carries across floors and levels, through zombie rooms and all over
the Arcology. (For this to work, the Blues, drones, and Greens shoot as badly
as Imperial Stormtroopers when they are on camera). The military team
disengages and goes their merry way. The runners and the Resistance members
continue the pitched battle.
I have two possible endings: 1) The runner carrying the vial with the
solution gets shot, the vial falls, and breaks, or 2) Deus ALLOWED the
runners to get the solution because he'd already evolved the Leeches to a
point where he needed the old ones to go away before he got the new and
improved version on the market.

Critique THAT!!!!!
--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+
M-
Message no. 49
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:29:44 -0700 (PDT)
> ] Thread 1 - The remnants of the military team do NOT succeed in
freeing Cliber. They do, however, manage to escape the arcology itself.
>
> This I like. The fact that some get away saves the story from
being totally dark and depressing, and the organized team being shown
as somehow not as "up to the task" as the shadowrunners fits right in
with the whole point of SR (that the runners are the 'heroes').

Hmmm...never really thought about the latter - good point.

> ] Thread 2 - The shadow team finds whoever they're looking for.
>
> Good as well. There should only be a couple of deaths on this
team, as the run isn't really important enough to warrant continuing in
the face of 75% losses (unless that's part of their personalities).

As I mentioned above, most of this team is to survive.

> ] If we want to be nasty, their target has been captured and
experimented on by Deus. The team has to decide whether to get the
person out and try to rebuild his/her mind and body, or end his/her
misery.
>
> If we go this way, they'd have to get them out, I think. I don't
want to start messing with euthanasia issues, and I'm sure FASA doesn't
really want to either. Besides, the other thread (Strike team) is dark
enough, this should be a bit better. What if the target was dying of a
disease inflicted by Deus (conveniently enough :) and they had to burn
rubber to get out of there? That would add to the
getting-away-from-Deus tension.

Not a bad idea, although I do like the moral dilemma element I
included. Eh - not my decision.

> ] At some point in time, the two threads would link up.
>
> I agree with this, but I don't think it should be for very long.
I'd think this would be best done at the end, or possibly the middle of
the runs. My preference is the end (it's just more climactic).

That's how I envisaged it as well.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 50
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:45:45 -0700 (PDT)
> So, what about MY idea? That the shadowrunning team (or the
Resistance, if Rand really wants the shadowrunning team to go for a
person, just like the military) is going for the solution the Greens
use to dissolve the Leeches. That would be a major occurrence, but it
wouldn't signify the downfall of Deus.

Okay, let me just explain something here. The reason I wanted to do the
two teams in the way I described was to contrast them. That's also why
I'd prefer to do a Renraku team to a military team - they're more
obviously self-serving.

The Renraku team is going in because that's what they get paid to do.
The shadow team is going in to save someone who means a lot to them.
The motives of Renraku in ordering the insertion are extremely selfish
- they're trying to save someone in order to save their own asses. The
motives of the shadow team are more philanthropic - they're risking
their own asses trying to save someone else.

And so on and so forth - I had more points, but I've forgotten them due
to a co-worker quoting badly mixed up, totally cliched, proverbs at me.

The point is, though, the two teams are doing similar things for very
different reasons and with very different results. Yes, it's a bit
moralistic, but I think it'd work.

> Here's the entire story as I envision it, plot-wise only: Team goes
in, using the opening on Highway 5. They hook up with the Resistance
really quickly, convince them they are who they say they are, and then
the runners and a few Resistance members head on up to where the
Leeches and the experiments are kept. They kill messily a whole bunch
of Greens, and obtain a vial of the stuff which dissolves Leeches. They
sneak off. As they are leaving, a bunch of Blues attack them. The
runners run away, two of the three Resistance members are killed. The
survivor and the runners hitch up with the rest of the Resistance cell
and another one. At that moment, all hell breaks loose. A huge battle
ensues. Here's where I tie this thread with the other: the huge
gunbattle impedes the progress of the other, military, team and THEY
get jumped too. The ferocious battle carries across floors and levels,
through zombie rooms and all over the Arcology. (For this to work, the
Blues, drones, and Greens shoot as badly as Imperial Stormtroopers when
they are on camera). The military team disengages and goes their merry
way. The runners and the Resistance members continue the pitched
battle. I have two possible endings: 1) The runner carrying the vial
with the solution gets shot, the vial falls, and breaks, or 2) Deus
ALLOWED the runners to get the solution because he'd already evolved
the Leeches to a point where he needed the old ones to go away before
he got the new and improved version on the market.
>
> Critique THAT!!!!!

Woah...

Well, as you can probably guess, Strago, I prefer my idea as the core
goal for the second team. I would, however, be interested in seeing
this done up as your own, individual story.

Things to think about:

I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team killed
off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to hook up
with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save them.

The motivation to grab the stuff to dissolve the leeches is more likely
to come from the Resistance than from outside the arcology - and it
certainly wouldn't come from a private citizen. The Resistance would
know about the leeches and would want the 'serum' in order to
facilitate their rescues. Renraku and the UCAS Military would probably
know about the leeches, but there are still problems there. They may
not care, because they would only need the stuff to destroy the leeches
to make it easier to break in, and if they really wanted in, missiles
and MBTs could bust in pretty much just as easily whether the leeches
were there or not. If they DID care, they'd send their own people in.
The only reason I can see corps sending shadowrunners into the arcology
would be if they were rivals of Renraku and they were after
experimental tech, or researchers trapped inside, because that would
give them deniability. For legitimate purposes (helping to free the
arcology, as this is), they'd be more likely to use their own people,
who they know they can trust. Only private citizens would really hire a
shadow team for something like this, because they don't have their own
resources, and even then, I can't see a private citizen really having
enough knowledge or interest to set up a job like that.

So my thinking is that it would go over best as one of the short
stories. To tie it in, you could have the Resistance cell the
Renraku/military team survivors have joined going to do this mission.
The team survivors agree to help because by this time they've heard
that Deus has Cliber (untrue) and they need the Resistance people's
help to get to her. You could also have them bump into the shadow team
if you wanted.

You'd have to be careful, though - the Resistance operates by cutting
and running, not by engaging in stand-up fights with the blues and the
drones. If you REALLY want this pitched battle happening, cut it down a
bit - a running battle makes sense, with the military/Renraku team and
the Resistance members trying to shoot their way out and escape Deus'
goons and Deus trying to catch them. It would also probably make sense
to have this as a multi-cell operation - you said two, I say you'll
need a few more. I don't see any Resistance cell being bigger than 10
people in size. Otherwise the purpose of having a cell structure falls
apart.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I think it'd work best adapted as a short
story. Let's see what everyone else says...(to be continued in my next message...)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 51
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 16:49:36 +1000
> > If we go this way, they'd have to get them out, I think. I don't
> want to start messing with euthanasia issues, and I'm sure FASA doesn't
> really want to either. Besides, the other thread (Strike team) is dark
> enough, this should be a bit better. What if the target was dying of a
> disease inflicted by Deus (conveniently enough :) and they had to burn
> rubber to get out of there? That would add to the
> getting-away-from-Deus tension.
>
> Not a bad idea, although I do like the moral dilemma element I
> included. Eh - not my decision.

The morality of the issue can still be played out, but the final decision
is always going to be getting out (with or without Deus on the tail). I
agree that FASA isnt going to want to have the story going anywhere near
the bad PR issues of euthanasia or DR.Death (that guy who advocates
Euthanasia). Im not making a comment on the issue itself (so please dont
think I am - tho I do have my own opinion), but FASA and shadowrun are
fantasy and enjoyable.. not something to air private or public views on
issues that are current.


> > ] At some point in time, the two threads would link up.
> >
> > I agree with this, but I don't think it should be for very long.
> I'd think this would be best done at the end, or possibly the middle of
> the runs. My preference is the end (it's just more climactic).
>
> That's how I envisaged it as well.

Is there anything wrong with one thread "commenting" on something
happening in the other thread. To illustrate:

The runner team are moving through one of the upper levels of a internal
plaza when a fire fight ensues down below. The runners look over and see
the incursion of the military team in process.. but hey they aint gonna get
involved.. there is too much heavy firepower flying for anything but a mad
scramble towards somewhere a lot further awat and thus a lot safer..

Hows that sort of thing for you?

Ive got to get a better signature.. anyone want to write me one? (shadowrun
related).

GreyWolf
--
***
"You never listen, do you?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 52
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 16:57:58 +1000
> Okay, let me just explain something here. The reason I wanted to do the
> two teams in the way I described was to contrast them. That's also why
> I'd prefer to do a Renraku team to a military team - they're more
> obviously self-serving.
>
> The Renraku team is going in because that's what they get paid to do.
> The shadow team is going in to save someone who means a lot to them.
> The motives of Renraku in ordering the insertion are extremely selfish
> - they're trying to save someone in order to save their own asses. The
> motives of the shadow team are more philanthropic - they're risking
> their own asses trying to save someone else.

I like the contrast between the two. It should work well if this is what happens.


> I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team killed
> off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to hook up
> with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save them.

Maybe not the first story.. but perhaps a few more onwards. The military thread
shouldnt be shut down too quickly initially. Remember that if you write them in longer
you can do editing later to make it more to your liking. Cut them down from the start
and you cant edit them back in without a whole lot more work.


> who they know they can trust. Only private citizens would really hire a
> shadow team for something like this, because they don't have their own
> resources, and even then, I can't see a private citizen really having
> enough knowledge or interest to set up a job like that.

Sadly I must agree.. I cant see any private citizen having that much of a problem with
the leeches and the serum. I can see a private citizen getting a shadowteam to get out
a loved one from the archology.. but not too many other ideas.. However stranger
things have ben known to happen.

Perhaps the miltary or renraku team may think the shadow team is there to steal the
serum before they can get to it? That would complicate things a bit wouldnt it?


> need a few more. I don't see any Resistance cell being bigger than 10
> people in size. Otherwise the purpose of having a cell structure falls
> apart.

Id say more like 12-15 per cell actually if you wanted to make them a bit bigger. The
resisitance cells in several wars have been that large or larger in certain
circumstances.

GreyWolf
Message no. 53
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
> > Not a bad idea, although I do like the moral dilemma element I
included. Eh - not my decision.
>
> The morality of the issue can still be played out, but the final
decision is always going to be getting out (with or without Deus on the
tail). I agree that FASA isnt going to want to have the story going
anywhere near the bad PR issues of euthanasia or DR.Death (that guy who
advocates Euthanasia). Im not making a comment on the issue itself (so
please dont think I am - tho I do have my own opinion), but FASA and
shadowrun are fantasy and enjoyable.. not something to air private or
public views on issues that are current.

Personally, I fail to see how having a group of characters in a novel
decide to end a friend's absolutely HORRENDOUS suffering, especially
because it would be very doubtful that they'd live to see a doctor
(which is how I saw it) would reflect FASA taking a stance on
euthanasia.

But I take your point. Anyway, we could always have them decide to try
to save the person and then have the person die on the way out if we
wanted to be morbid and grim.

> Is there anything wrong with one thread "commenting" on something
happening in the other thread. To illustrate:

Not at all, although your particular example probably wouldn't work, as
it looks like, in order to allow Scott Wheelock to write his story set
on the OUTSIDE of the Arcology, the Renraku/military team would have to
go in first.

Don't forget, you don't have to write on either thread, as long as you
include something to advance one plot or the other - or both. BUT, if
you wish, you CAN write your story around either of the core threads.

Also, everything that I've written above only works on the assumption
that we're going ENTIRELY with my idea for the core threads. Like I
said, I'll be addressing that issue shortly.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 54
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 17:09:34 +1000
> Personally, I fail to see how having a group of characters in a novel
> decide to end a friend's absolutely HORRENDOUS suffering, especially
> because it would be very doubtful that they'd live to see a doctor
> (which is how I saw it) would reflect FASA taking a stance on
> euthanasia.
>
> But I take your point. Anyway, we could always have them decide to try
> to save the person and then have the person die on the way out if we
> wanted to be morbid and grim.

Niether do I, and I agree with you.. but Hey, we all have to work on this,
so lets take everyones opinions into account :)

GreyWolf
Message no. 55
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:27:33 -0700 (PDT)
> > I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team
killed off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to
hook up with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save
them.
>
> Maybe not the first story.. but perhaps a few more onwards. The
military thread shouldnt be shut down too quickly initially. Remember
that if you write them in longer you can do editing later to make it
more to your liking. Cut them down from the start and you cant edit
them back in without a whole lot more work.

Mmmm...yeah...but it's not so much shutting them down as changing their
focus. Instead of relying on each other, the survivors are forced to
rely on the Resistance. Plus, it's more dramatic if these tough
professionals start getting the drek kicked out of them almost as soon
as they hit the arc.

> Perhaps the miltary or renraku team may think the shadow team is
there to steal the serum before they can get to it? That would
complicate things a bit wouldnt it?

Complicate, yes, but not necessarily in a good way. This would be a
good thing to explore in a novel. In an anthology where only half or
less of the stories will focus on these characters, the conflict
engendered would probably be too large in scale. Yeah, this is
something we could probably use, but only along the lines of the
Resistance initially getting the wrong idea, popping off a few caps at
the runners, but then getting things sorted out.

Plus, the Resistance members are less likely to take hostile action if
it looks like someone got there before them. Most of the Resistance
members are ordinary Joes - they'd probably try to persuade
nasty-looking runners with bigs guns to share the formula, rather than
trying to blow them away.

> Id say more like 12-15 per cell actually if you wanted to make them a
bit bigger. The resisitance cells in several wars have been that large
or larger in certain circumstances.
> GreyWolf

Yes, but the Resistance cells have different considerations to
resistance cells in wars. In a war, the resistance is opposed to the
invaders, but both sides are still human. So they can afford to have
more members, because the invaders wouldn't take action against them if
they just saw them.

Conditions are different in the arc. There, you're either a banded or a
drone, who are working for Deus, or you're human, in which case, you're
automatically opposed to Deus. There are large (and usually obvious)
distinctions between the two sides. If a Resistance cell is spotted by
Deus' goons, then the goons will KNOW they're Resistance members and
take them out. Stealth is the name of the game in the arc. If you want
to survive, you have to be able to hide from Deus' troops. That's why
Resistance cells have to be fairly small. If they get too big, then
they're too easily found out and eliminated.

Make sense?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 56
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 17:29:48 +1000
> Conditions are different in the arc. There, you're either a banded or a
> drone, who are working for Deus, or you're human, in which case, you're
> automatically opposed to Deus. There are large (and usually obvious)
> distinctions between the two sides. If a Resistance cell is spotted by
> Deus' goons, then the goons will KNOW they're Resistance members and
> take them out. Stealth is the name of the game in the arc. If you want
> to survive, you have to be able to hide from Deus' troops. That's why
> Resistance cells have to be fairly small. If they get too big, then
> they're too easily found out and eliminated.
>
> Make sense?

Actually it does...


GreyWolf
Message no. 57
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:39:23 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Strago."
] So, what about MY idea? That the shadowrunning team (or the Resistance, if
] Rand really wants the shadowrunning team to go for a person, just like the
] military) is going for the solution the Greens use to dissolve the Leeches.
] That would be a major occurrence, but it wouldn't signify the downfall of
] Deus.

I dunno anything about leeches...personally, I've always been opposed
to writing anything that changes major events in Shadowrun (or that
even comes close to doing so). Thus, even though I'm currently writing
a Chicago story, I am not going to include Catherine the Terrible, or
Tamir Grey, or any major players. I just don't feel comfortable doing
that. If the leech thing is too major, I'd have to vote against it,
but if it doesn't matter much, hey, why not?
Of course, even if it weren't the leech thing, it could be something
else. Although I think the hostage thing is good, there are
alternatives. However, I like the parallel between the Strike team
going in after a person, and the runners going in after a person.

] Here's the entire story as I envision it, plot-wise only:
] Team goes in, using the opening on Highway 5. They hook up with the
] Resistance really quickly, convince them they are who they say they are, and
] then the runners and a few Resistance members head on up to where the
Leeches
] and the experiments are kept. They kill messily a whole bunch of Greens, and
] obtain a vial of the stuff which dissolves Leeches. They sneak off.
] As they are leaving, a bunch of Blues attack them. The runners run away, two
] of the three Resistance members are killed. The survivor and the runners
] hitch up with the rest of the Resistance cell and another one. At that
] moment, all hell breaks loose. A huge battle ensues.

A lot of violence so far...but I guess you could argue there's a lot
of setup happening in between each event.

] Here's where I tie this thread with the other: the huge gunbattle
impedes the
] progress of the other, military, team and THEY get jumped too.

I like that.

] The military team disengages and goes their merry way. The runners and the
] Resistance members continue the pitched battle.
] I have two possible endings: 1) The runner carrying the vial with the
] solution gets shot, the vial falls, and breaks, or 2) Deus ALLOWED the
] runners to get the solution because he'd already evolved the Leeches to a
] point where he needed the old ones to go away before he got the new and
] improved version on the market.

And here's the problem...I hate getting them out of there and having
their whole mission be for nothing. That happens to the Strike team.
The runners should enjoy some level of success, in my mind. The reader
should care about both teams (and about all the stories that bump up
against these teams), but should come away feeling like at least one
team had good things happen to it (in the end at least).

All in all though, it seems like a good idea. Not having read RA:S,
I'll throw this out to the masses: Are major gunfights a survival
technique in the Arc, or will they bring down the drones upon the
fighters? That matters, you might have to tone down your fight scenes
(or turn them up!).

Keep the ideas and comments coming, folks. Silence will probably end
up being interpreted as consent!

-Murder of One
Message no. 58
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:26:19 -0500
>
> The Renraku team is going in because that's what they get paid to do.
> The shadow team is going in to save someone who means a lot to them.
> The motives of Renraku in ordering the insertion are extremely selfish
> - they're trying to save someone in order to save their own asses. The
> motives of the shadow team are more philanthropic - they're risking
> their own asses trying to save someone else.

I like it, i would add that the RenORMil team will have SOTA equipment,
training and things like that overconfidence that they are going to have
a piece of cake. The other group maybe have personal problems with each
other. so at the begining they have problems with the "team work". In
the first encounter they have, they only save their ass (what is the
prural asses??) because a 3 party force intervene. (maybe the rebels or
a raccoon shaman :-) ) this make a click in their mind and let them see
the obvious. Work as one or you are going to die.
With the next pages, we are going to read the tranformation of the 2
team, one from "we are the ones" to "run for your lives" the other
from
"first me, second me and third me" to "one for all and all for one".


Opinions :-)

> The point is, though, the two teams are doing similar things for very
> different reasons and with very different results. Yes, it's a bit
> moralistic, but I think it'd work.

Me too.


> > Here's the entire story as I envision it, plot-wise only: Team goes
> he got the new and improved version on the market.
> >
> > Critique THAT!!!!!
>
> Woah...
>
> Well, as you can probably guess, Strago, I prefer my idea as the core
> goal for the second team. I would, however, be interested in seeing
> this done up as your own, individual story.
>
> Things to think about:
>
> I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team killed
> off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to hook up
> with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save them.

Could be but i dont like ti to much.

>
> enough knowledge or interest to set up a job like that.

difficult at best.

>
> So my thinking is that it would go over best as one of the short
> if you wanted.

OK. I live the big idea not the details
>
> You'd have to be careful, though - the Resistance operates by cutting
> people in size. Otherwise the purpose of having a cell structure falls
> apart.

And we need some leadership, i supouse organice arround the red Sam.

Ahuizotl
Message no. 59
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:33:40 -0500
Rand Ratinac escribió:
>
> >
>
> Mmmm...yeah...but it's not so much shutting them down as changing their
> as they hit the arc.

I like it
>
>
> Make sense?

A lot

Ahuizotl
Message no. 60
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:04:18 -0500
> Well Eddie,
>
> Youve picked a damn fine nick if you ask me :)
>

Thanks a lot

> GreyWolf
>
> Ah I wish i could be so original :P~

Is easier when you came from another culture :-P

Ahuizotl

Coatzin (Mag Adp}, Tizoc (SS), Kukulkan(Ph Ad), Huitzilotl(mage),
Quetzalquetzin (SS), Coatl(sham), Totomali (deck),Tonatihu (The Rigger,
now know as the taxista (the taxidriver),Tezozomoc(SS),
Nezahualcoyotl(deck), Huitzilihuitl(SS),Ixtlilxochitl(mage).
Message no. 61
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
> I dunno anything about leeches...personally, I've always been
opposed to writing anything that changes major events in Shadowrun (or
that even comes close to doing so). Thus, even though I'm currently
writing a Chicago story, I am not going to include Catherine the
Terrible, or Tamir Grey, or any major players. I just don't feel
comfortable doing that. If the leech thing is too major, I'd have to
vote against it, but if it doesn't matter much, hey, why not?

Personally, I don't think having the Resistance (just the Resistance,
mind) getting the leech formula would be too big a deal. But it would
probably be better, if we go with this, to have the attempt fail in
some way anyway.


> And here's the problem...I hate getting them out of there and
having their whole mission be for nothing. That happens to the Strike
team. The runners should enjoy some level of success, in my mind. The
reader should care about both teams (and about all the stories that
bump up against these teams), but should come away feeling like at
least one team had good things happen to it (in the end at least).

Which is why I recommended that this be a short story, not one of the
core threads.


> All in all though, it seems like a good idea. Not having read
RA:S, I'll throw this out to the masses: Are major gunfights a survival
technique in the Arc, or will they bring down the drones upon the
fighters? That matters, you might have to tone down your fight scenes
(or turn them up!).

I believe I've addressed this concern - stealth is the main concern in
the arc. The only time it wouldn't be would be if a heavy hitting
outside team was coming in and getting out quickly and speed (and
firepower) was of more concern. Which is why if Strago wants to do his
big fight scene (and I have no problems with that :) ), I think it'd
have to consist of a bunch of Resistance fighters (and the survivors of
the Renraku/military team, IMO) trying to escape from Deus' troops,
while the drones and blues are trying to catch them.


> Keep the ideas and comments coming, folks. Silence will probably
end up being interpreted as consent!
>
> -Murder of One

I'm afraid that's exactly what I'll interpret silence as.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 62
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:05:08 -0700 (PDT)
> I like it, i would add that the RenORMil team will have SOTA
equipment, training and things like that overconfidence that they are
going to have a piece of cake.

Yes, that's exactly how I saw it - except they'd be professional enough
that they wouldn't expect a TOTAL walkover, but yes, they'd be rather
overconfident.

> The other group maybe have personal problems with each other. so at
the begining they have problems with the "team work". In the first
encounter they have, they only save their ass (what is the prural
asses??) because a 3 party force intervene. (maybe the rebels or a
raccoon shaman :-) ) this make a click in their mind and let them see
the obvious. Work as one or you are going to die.

Asses indeed. Actually, I don't like this so much. Perhaps they'd have
some personality conflicts, but if they're going in to rescue a
friend/teammate/relative etc, then they'd have to get along fairly
well, or they'd never risk their lives. And they'd CERTAINLY have to
work well as a team, otherwise Deus' troops would eat them alive.

Maybe change that to: Renraku team - overequipped and overconfident.
Shadow team - well (but not ridiculously) equipped and realistic.

> With the next pages, we are going to read the tranformation of the 2
team, one from "we are the ones" to "run for your lives" the other
from
"first me, second me and third me" to "one for all and all for one".


>
> Opinions :-)

Again, I agree with the first, but with the second - well, if they were
as bad as you're portraying them, I don't think they'd SURVIVE to be
able to reform their attitudes.


> > I intend, if everyone agrees, to have most of the military team
killed off in the first story. Because of this, they're more likely to
hook up with the Resistance, because the Resistance comes along to save
them.
>
> Could be but i dont like ti to much.

Awww! Why not? I think a whole heap of bloodshed could really set the
scene in the early stages of the book. :)

No, seriously, you're not the first person to say you don't think it's
a good idea to inflict heavy casualties on the Renraku team from the
outset - why do you say that?

See, my reasoning is that a) they're overconfident, which Deus can
certainly use against them and b) Deus has 'assimilated' a whole heap
of Renraku Red Samurai as blues, so he's figured out how those kind of
people operate - so he can anticipate what the Renraku team will do and
can use that against them too. If the Renraku team underestimates Deus
and Deus pretty much knows their tactics, then his troops will rip
through them and a lot of bodies will result.

Okay, guys, what's your reasoning? Why don't you a) like the idea and
b) think it would happen?

> And we need some leadership, i supouse organice arround the red Sam.
>
> Ahuizotl

From RA:S, the leadership of the cells would be made up of surviving
senior Red Samurai, people like Cliber and shadowrunners who've gone in
and joined the Resistance.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 63
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:21:03 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Personally, I don't think having the Resistance (just the Resistance,
> mind) getting the leech formula would be too big a deal. But it would
> probably be better, if we go with this, to have the attempt fail in
> some way anyway.
>

They do fail. I'm just wondering how. Does Deus change the leech
composition, or does the guy who's holding the vial containing the serum
get shot? Or both? Just to REALLY put them down . . .

> > And here's the problem...I hate getting them out of there and
> having their whole mission be for nothing. That happens to the Strike
> team. The runners should enjoy some level of success, in my mind. The
> reader should care about both teams (and about all the stories that
> bump up against these teams), but should come away feeling like at
> least one team had good things happen to it (in the end at least).
>
> Which is why I recommended that this be a short story, not one of the
> core threads.
>

I'll have it for you on Friday for your reading (dis)pleasure.

> > All in all though, it seems like a good idea. Not having read
> RA:S, I'll throw this out to the masses: Are major gunfights a survival
> technique in the Arc, or will they bring down the drones upon the
> fighters? That matters, you might have to tone down your fight scenes
> (or turn them up!).
>
> I believe I've addressed this concern - stealth is the main concern in
> the arc. The only time it wouldn't be would be if a heavy hitting
> outside team was coming in and getting out quickly and speed (and
> firepower) was of more concern. Which is why if Strago wants to do his
> big fight scene (and I have no problems with that :)

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!

> ), I think it'd have to consist of a bunch of Resistance fighters (and
> the survivors of
> the Renraku/military team, IMO) trying to escape from Deus' troops,
> while the drones and blues are trying to catch them.
>
> > Keep the ideas and comments coming, folks. Silence will probably
> end up being interpreted as consent!
> >
> > -Murder of One
>
> I'm afraid that's exactly what I'll interpret silence as.
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.


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gm+ M-
Message no. 64
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:23:08 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Asses indeed. Actually, I don't like this so much. Perhaps they'd have
] some personality conflicts, but if they're going in to rescue a
] friend/teammate/relative etc, then they'd have to get along fairly
] well, or they'd never risk their lives. And they'd CERTAINLY have to
] work well as a team, otherwise Deus' troops would eat them alive.

Well, we could say this: the character who's decided to go in a get
out her/his teammate/friend/relative doesn't have the contacts he/she
needs. He's well off though (perhaps, as the cliche goes, close to
retirement :), and hires a bunch of runners. So, you have the
character, with perhaps a couple good runner friends, making up half
the team, and the hired guns making up the other half. There's a lot
to work with there: good friends, characters who are unknown
quantities, personality conflicts, getting-to-know-you moments,
well-oiled-machine teamwork, blah blah. Sound like a decent plan?

] No, seriously, you're not the first person to say you don't think it's
] a good idea to inflict heavy casualties on the Renraku team from the
] outset - why do you say that?
] Okay, guys, what's your reasoning? Why don't you a) like the idea and
] b) think it would happen?

Well, I hate to just sound like Doc's Yes-Man, but I like it. It's
got a very Aliens feel to it...and consider. If they went in there,
armed to the teeth, cockier than a bus-full of winning hockey players,
and Deus knew their strategies, wouldn't they get the pus bonked right
out of them? I think so.

An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
accessible to most.

-Murder of One
Message no. 65
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:39:09 +1000
> Coatzin (Mag Adp}, Tizoc (SS), Kukulkan(Ph Ad), Huitzilotl(mage),
> Quetzalquetzin (SS), Coatl(sham), Totomali (deck),Tonatihu (The Rigger,
> now know as the taxista (the taxidriver),Tezozomoc(SS),
> Nezahualcoyotl(deck), Huitzilihuitl(SS),Ixtlilxochitl(mage).

Now that cracks me up.. a rigger called the taxidriver :)

GreyWolf

--
***
"You never listen, do you?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 66
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:45:40 -0400
Scott Wheelock wrote:

> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
> ] Asses indeed. Actually, I don't like this so much. Perhaps they'd have
> ] some personality conflicts, but if they're going in to rescue a
> ] friend/teammate/relative etc, then they'd have to get along fairly
> ] well, or they'd never risk their lives. And they'd CERTAINLY have to
> ] work well as a team, otherwise Deus' troops would eat them alive.
>
> Well, we could say this: the character who's decided to go in a get
> out her/his teammate/friend/relative doesn't have the contacts he/she
> needs. He's well off though (perhaps, as the cliche goes, close to
> retirement :), and hires a bunch of runners. So, you have the
> character, with perhaps a couple good runner friends, making up half
> the team, and the hired guns making up the other half. There's a lot
> to work with there: good friends, characters who are unknown
> quantities, personality conflicts, getting-to-know-you moments,
> well-oiled-machine teamwork, blah blah. Sound like a decent plan?
>
> ] No, seriously, you're not the first person to say you don't think it's
> ] a good idea to inflict heavy casualties on the Renraku team from the
> ] outset - why do you say that?
> ] Okay, guys, what's your reasoning? Why don't you a) like the idea and
> ] b) think it would happen?
>
> Well, I hate to just sound like Doc's Yes-Man, but I like it. It's
> got a very Aliens feel to it...and consider. If they went in there,
> armed to the teeth, cockier than a bus-full of winning hockey players,
> and Deus knew their strategies, wouldn't they get the pus bonked right
> out of them? I think so.
>
> An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
> situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
> RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
> accessible to most.
>
> -Murder of One

Now THIS is a nifty idea. The Renraku team (maybe even made up of people
who worked day-to-day in the Arc) know the layout of the place (or so they
think), before Deus played with it ;^P, and so that makes them even MORE
cocky. The Shadow team, OTOH, read the RA:S file on Shadowland, and know
what to expect. They're better in EVERY way, except for firepower, but they
don't need a lot of firepower.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M-
Message no. 67
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:50:45 +1000
> > I like it, i would add that the RenORMil team will have SOTA
> equipment, training and things like that overconfidence that they are
> going to have a piece of cake.
>
> Yes, that's exactly how I saw it - except they'd be professional enough
> that they wouldn't expect a TOTAL walkover, but yes, they'd be rather
> overconfident.

How many other teams have tried to go into the arc? How many succeeded?

These are the "fictional" type of military then? The ones who ignore prior
experience in favour of bravado?
If they werent written this way id say that most of them are under direct
orders to hit the plex and are probably browning their trousers at the
thought of it..
IMHO...


> Maybe change that to: Renraku team - overequipped and overconfident.
> Shadow team - well (but not ridiculously) equipped and realistic.

Sounds normal.. shadow teams are usualy less well equipped than corp or Mil
teams.. Note I did say "Usually"... there have been exceptions.. but this
probably shouldnt be one of them. The contrast between well equiped and
failure and badly equipped and partial success shouldnt be thrown away.


> See, my reasoning is that a) they're overconfident, which Deus can
> certainly use against them and b) Deus has 'assimilated' a whole heap
> of Renraku Red Samurai as blues, so he's figured out how those kind of
> people operate - so he can anticipate what the Renraku team will do and
> can use that against them too. If the Renraku team underestimates Deus
> and Deus pretty much knows their tactics, then his troops will rip
> through them and a lot of bodies will result.

Probably, but you have to remember that the red sams are trained to resist
this w\sort of thing (even if they are browning their trousers.. and elite
troops with experience are better than an AI still learning stuff. It was
the blues who had the experience and as I understand it, they are little
better than drones now - they dont have the experience anymore - and they
dont have too much else either... do they?)


> >From RA:S, the leadership of the cells would be made up of surviving
> senior Red Samurai, people like Cliber and shadowrunners who've gone in
> and joined the Resistance.

Id agree with that.. though I think there would be some technical wizzes
who are in there too - but who arent shadowrunners but pure civvy techs..
so to speak.. for example. There would be others too..

My 2 nuyen...

GreyWolf
Message no. 68
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:31:37 -0400
> Awww! Why not? I think a whole heap of bloodshed could really set the
> scene in the early stages of the book. :)

I'm all for bloodbath. Makes everyone else wary. Also makes the winning
side look unbeatable until the runners hit them. Gotta root for that
underdog. If the first wave doesn't have any trouble with these guys, why
send in runners at all?

> From RA:S, the leadership of the cells would be made up of surviving
> senior Red Samurai, people like Cliber and shadowrunners who've gone in
> and joined the Resistance.

I'm thinkin' that the Reds, while not being killed down to the last man,
would certainly get themselves trashed on the first tangle. There ought to
be some left though, that'd join up with the new comers. After all,
everyone needs a guide. And I agree that Cliber would bug out as soon as
possible. Total loss IS total loss, after all.

Pink`
Who's still hunting for that darn book
Message no. 69
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:16:16 -0700 (PDT)
> Well, we could say this: the character who's decided to go in a get
out her/his teammate/friend/relative doesn't have the contacts he/she
needs. He's well off though (perhaps, as the cliche goes, close to
retirement :), and hires a bunch of runners. So, you have the
character, with perhaps a couple good runner friends, making up half
the team, and the hired guns making up the other half. There's a lot
to work with there: good friends, characters who are unknown
quantities, personality conflicts, getting-to-know-you moments,
well-oiled-machine teamwork, blah blah. Sound like a decent plan?

Yep, that does. I wasn't intending to write the introductory story for
these guys myself, so it's not my problem really. It does sound
workable, though. Just a couple of points - a) the runners have to be
professional enough that though they may not like each other, they
follow orders well enough to stay alive, and b) don't go too overboard
- most of these issues will have to be resolved, or at least buried for
the good of the team, in their introductory story.

> Well, I hate to just sound like Doc's Yes-Man, but I like it. It's
got a very Aliens feel to it...and consider. If they went in there,
armed to the teeth, cockier than a bus-full of winning hockey players,
and Deus knew their strategies, wouldn't they get the pus bonked right
out of them? I think so.

*Doc' slips Scott a wad of money under the table...*

8-)

Seriously, though, with this premise it makes sense that the Renraku
team is going to get chewed up bad. Plus, we want to teach them a
lesson. :) Not so badly that they become impotent, but enough that,
like I said, they change focus. The survivors will hook up with the
Resistance cell that saves their hides and that thread will,
effectively become the "Renraku Team plus Resistance cell" thread.

> An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
accessible to most.
>
> -Murder of One

That's exactly what RA:S is. The runners would know that much, but no
more - or at least, not much. In fact, I think the best way for the
runners to get into the arc would be via the Ork Underground. The
Renraku team, on the other hand, would know layouts and all sorts of
stuff about the arc - but they wouldn't have too much knowledge of
what's been happening inside. What knowledge they DO have would be
dated, as Renraku's access has been restricted since the UCAS military
took over.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 70
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:56:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > > I like it, i would add that the RenORMil team will have SOTA
equipment, training and things like that overconfidence that they are
going to have a piece of cake.
> >
> > Yes, that's exactly how I saw it - except they'd be professional
enough that they wouldn't expect a TOTAL walkover, but yes, they'd be
rather overconfident.
>
> How many other teams have tried to go into the arc? How many
succeeded?
>
> These are the "fictional" type of military then? The ones who ignore
prior experience in favour of bravado? If they werent written this way
id say that most of them are under direct orders to hit the plex and
are probably browning their trousers at the thought of it.. IMHO...

Well, okay - I think I should have phrased that better. It also goes
back to these comments made by Scott and Strago:

> > An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
accessible to most.
> > -Murder of One
>
> Now THIS is a nifty idea. The Renraku team (maybe even made up of
people who worked day-to-day in the Arc) know the layout of the place
(or so they think), before Deus played with it ;^P, and so that makes
them even MORE cocky. The Shadow team, OTOH, read the RA:S file on
Shadowland, and know what to expect. They're better in EVERY way,
except for firepower, but they don't need a lot of firepower.
> --Strago

Okay - the Renraku team would NOT be 'day-to-day' Red Samurai. They'd
be a black-ops team, like the one described in RA:S (Condor, Eagle,
Control, Ferret etc.). They would not, as has apparently been
suggested, be TOTALLY overconfident. They WOULD, however, be confident
in their skills ("Hey, we're the nastiest of the nasty black-ops teams
Renraku has!") and in their ability to carry out their mission. Having
heaps of top-notch equipment and detailed knowledge of the layout of
the arc, plus data acquired by other teams who've been in and out of
the arc, would enhance this attitude. And in the arc, any level of
confidence is usually overconfidence. So they wouldn't just wander on
in, blasting everything they saw. They would, however, be somewhat
complacent.

The shadowrunners, on the other hand, would be scared but determined
(they have some knowledge of what they're getting into and they know
it's probably worse than they think it is), so they'd be cautious and
careful and paranoid - and that's what would probably save their lives.

> > Maybe change that to: Renraku team - overequipped and
overconfident. Shadow team - well (but not ridiculously) equipped and
realistic.
>
> Sounds normal.. shadow teams are usualy less well equipped than corp
or Mil teams.. Note I did say "Usually"... there have been exceptions..
but this probably shouldnt be one of them.

True - for instance, the Renraku guys can have ANYTHING out of ANY
Shadowrun sourcebook published - BattleTac, tasty drones, etc. etc. The
runners would have to be more limited. They need to be good - but not
over the top.

A note at this point - if anyone's read K's logs of his team's mission
in the arc - that's TOO POWERFUL!! :) For the runners and the Renraku
team, we're looking at a power level maybe halfway between K's guys and
starting runners (or maybe a third of the way on the less-powerful
side). Good, but not superhuman. :)


> Probably, but you have to remember that the red sams are trained to
resist this w\sort of thing (even if they are browning their trousers..
and elite troops with experience are better than an AI still learning
stuff. It was the blues who had the experience and as I understand it,
they are little better than drones now - they dont have the experience
anymore - and they dont have too much else either... do they?)

I'm afraid you don't understand it correctly, Aaron. From RA:S it looks
like all the banded are pretty much normal people. The only difference
is that they have cybernetic implants through which Deus 'controls'
them. Now, he doesn't control people as he would a drone, he exercises
control over their minds so that they obey him - and, in a lot of
cases, WANT to obey him. What you have to remember is that Deus,
although an AI, still follows game rules for directly CONTROLLING
drones. He can only directly control a few at a time. All the others
operate using their pilot ratings. The banded are somewhat similar,
except their 'pilot ratings' are their own knowledge, experience and
initiative. Imagine it as the difference between a control actions and
a control thoughts spell. Deus doesn't take over a person's body as if
they were a drone (control actions), he uses cyberware (and drugs, I
believe) to make people WANT to serve him (control thoughts). So they
still have all their knowledge and expertise - the teams won't be going
up against human-shaped drones, they're going up against Red Samurai
and Renraku security mages and the like. So, yes, they still have all
their tactical knowledge which Deus can use.

The other thing you have to remember is that Deus isn't LEARNING
tactics - he KNOWS tactics. In the form of the AEP, he's been running
the arcology for years and he still has access to his knowledge as the
AEP. He also has access to the data contained in any files in the arc
Matrix, which would include tactical and strategic defense plans,
tactical and strategic training exercises etc. etc. It's quite
frightening how much data Deus has assimilated over the years.
Basically, he knows each and every inch of the arcology and he knows
exactly how to use it against his enemies. The only thing that saves
people is that he can't be everywhere all the time.

> Id agree with that.. though I think there would be some technical
wizzes who are in there too - but who arent shadowrunners but pure
civvy techs.. so to speak.. for example. There would be others too..
> GreyWolf

Oh, they'd be in there, but they'd be unlikely to be in leadership
roles. Leadership would be assumed by people like Cliber, who think
they were born to boss other people around, Red Sammie officers, who
know they should be charge in an emergency situation like this and know
they have the best knowledge base to protect their charges, and
shadowrunners and the like, who have the experience and knowledge, if
not the authority. There may be other types in charge of cells, but
they'd be the exception rather than the rule.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 71
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
> I'm afraid you don't understand it correctly, Aaron. From RA:S it
looks like all the banded are pretty much normal people. The only
difference is that they have cybernetic implants through which Deus
'controls' them.

Brainwashing! That's the word!!

Guys, the banded in the arcology have not had their minds repressed to
the point that they're little more than drones. They've been
brainwashed!

*Doc' slaps his forehead. "Idiot!"*

And what's something everyone knows about people who've been
brainwashed? That's right...they tend to be fanatics...scary thought, neh?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 72
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:47:06 -0400
> And what's something everyone knows about people who've been
> brainwashed? That's right...they tend to be fanatics...scary thought, neh?

Well, there is that. And the drool. Ew.

Pink`
Message no. 73
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:11:58 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> ><SNIPPITTY SNIP>
> Seriously, though, with this premise it makes sense that the Renraku
> team is going to get chewed up bad. Plus, we want to teach them a
> lesson. :) Not so badly that they become impotent, but enough that,
> like I said, they change focus. The survivors will hook up with the
> Resistance cell that saves their hides and that thread will,
> effectively become the "Renraku Team plus Resistance cell" thread.
>

So, since I'm writing about a Resistance cell, does that mean the thread
becomes mine?

> > An alternate question here...does either core team know what the
> situation is inside the Arc? This could be very important. I assume
> RA:S is like Bug City: a general notice posted on Shadowland,
> accessible to most.
> >
> > -Murder of One
>
> That's exactly what RA:S is. The runners would know that much, but no
> more - or at least, not much. In fact, I think the best way for the
> runners to get into the arc would be via the Ork Underground. The
> Renraku team, on the other hand, would know layouts and all sorts of
> stuff about the arc - but they wouldn't have too much knowledge of
> what's been happening inside. What knowledge they DO have would be
> dated, as Renraku's access has been restricted since the UCAS military
> took over.
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> _________________________________________________________
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Message no. 74
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:39:18 -0700 (PDT)
> The survivors will hook up with the Resistance cell that saves their
hides and that thread will, effectively become the "Renraku Team plus
Resistance cell" thread.

> So, since I'm writing about a Resistance cell, does that mean the
thread becomes mine?
> --Strago

Yes and no. In that you'd be allowed to do pretty much whatever you
want with the Resistance cell and Renraku survivors and anyone else
involved in your story, yes. If you meant taking it totally off track
so that the Renraku team couldn't reach it's preplanned resolution,
then no. :)

Everyone will have carte blanche with their stories, with the proviso,
of course, that, as I said above, they don't totally screw with the
plans for the core threads.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 75
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:44:51 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Everyone will have carte blanche with their stories, with the proviso,
] of course, that, as I said above, they don't totally screw with the
] plans for the core threads.

And they don't alter the situation in the Arc too much, right?

-Murder of One
Message no. 76
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:53:13 -0700 (PDT)
> ] Everyone will have carte blanche with their stories, with the
proviso, of course, that, as I said above, they don't totally screw
with the plans for the core threads.
>
> And they don't alter the situation in the Arc too much, right?
>
> -Murder of One

Errr...right. That too.

8-)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 77
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:42:40 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > The survivors will hook up with the Resistance cell that saves their
> hides and that thread will, effectively become the "Renraku Team plus
> Resistance cell" thread.
>
> > So, since I'm writing about a Resistance cell, does that mean the
> thread becomes mine?
> > --Strago
>
> Yes and no. In that you'd be allowed to do pretty much whatever you
> want with the Resistance cell and Renraku survivors and anyone else
> involved in your story, yes. If you meant taking it totally off track
> so that the Renraku team couldn't reach it's preplanned resolution,
> then no. :)
>
> Everyone will have carte blanche with their stories, with the proviso,
> of course, that, as I said above, they don't totally screw with the
> plans for the core threads.
>

You're no fun. ;^)

<Strago puts his thumbs in his ears, sticks his tongue at Doc', and goes
thbbbbbbbbb>

> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> _________________________________________________________
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--
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Message no. 78
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:04:27 -0500
Question

The red samuray is man only or are Woman Red samuray?

In the events of RA:S there is a mayor destruction in some public place?
Im lookin for a big catastrofe in a pulbic place in the arc but inside
of them, how was the close of the ARC? Deus close the doors? :-)

Thanks
Ahuizotl
_Looking for a short story
Message no. 79
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:02:02 -0500
,Tonatihu (The Rigger,
> > now know as the taxista (the taxidriver),Tezozomoc(SS),
> > Nezahualcoyotl(deck), Huitzilihuitl(SS),Ixtlilxochitl(mage).
>
> Now that cracks me up.. a rigger called the taxidriver :)

what can i tell you :-)

Ahuizotl
Message no. 80
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:43:19 -0700 (PDT)
> Question
>
> The red samuray is man only or are Woman Red samuray?

Errr...I believe there's both, but I could be wrong. The Red Samurai
could be one of the last bastions of sexism in the world. :)

> In the events of RA:S there is a mayor destruction in some public
place? Im lookin for a big catastrofe in a pulbic place in the arc but
inside of them, how was the close of the ARC? Deus close the doors? :-)

Ummm...I'm not exactly sure what you're asking there, but maybe this'll
help. When Deus took over the arc, there were a lot of people in the
mall areas, shopping etc. Many of these are stilled trapped there.
Estimates range from 10 to 20,000 or even more. There would have been
panic and, yes, that could have led to destruction by terrified people.

Apart from that, well...it really depends what you're thinking of. I'm
sure that there've been firefights, explosions (especially with doll
constructs blowing up) and all sorts of exciting stuff.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 81
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
Hey, peeps,

I've been getting organised, collating ideas, names and the like.

So far we have 7 writers on the list, with another one coming,
hopefully.

Demonnic Bloodbather <demonnic@*********.net>
Doc’ <DocWagon101@*****.com>
Iridios <iridios@*********.com>
Rat <winterhawk@*********.net>
Roger Nicholls <roger@*******.freeserve.co.uk>
Strago <strago@***.com>
Tay-Dor <CEvans9159@***.com>

Then there's our three editors:
David Hayes <rook.aerie@****.com>
Doc’ <DocWagon101@*****.com>
Strago <strago@***.com>

And finally, our three planners:
Kismet <kismet_sr@*****.com>
Severian Burdick <h2owarrior@*******.com>
Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>

(Severian came up with a couple of ideas - I'm not sure if he wants to
be on the planning crew, but he's welcome.)

Anyway, if you want to be involved and your name isn't on any of the
lists, let me know.

Next: our first order of business is to decide on what the core
plotline/s will be.

I've suggested we use two interweaving plotlines, focusing on two
separate groups - a Renraku or UCAS military team and a shadow team.

There haven't been any other suggestions for core plotlines, so please
get in any ideas or let us know if you're satisfied with my suggestion.
All this should go straight to the list.

Just to let you know, the next step, once we're agreed upon core
plotlines, is to create the core characters - we need to come to an
agreement about the professions, skills and abilities (and
augmentations) and personalities of the characters involved in the core
plotlines. You have free reign with your own characters, although it's
best if you don't go over the top and make them godslayers, but we'll
all be using the core characters, so it's best if we're all happy with
them.

Meanwhile, keep your ideas for your own stories coming in. Don't forget
to take the core plotline/s into account - your stories have to hook
into those in some way.

If anyone else wishes to join as a writer, a planner, or whatever,
speak up! We've got plenty of room still. I'd like to try and get 12 or
15 writers, if not more.

(Btw, I'm sending this to the ShadowRN list as well to drum up support.
:) If you're on the ShadowRN list and you don't know what this is
about, speak to me or join the SRFanFic list.)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 82
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:40:09 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Next: our first order of business is to decide on what the core
> plotline/s will be.
>
> I've suggested we use two interweaving plotlines, focusing on two
> separate groups - a Renraku or UCAS military team and a shadow team.
>

Two teams entering the Arcology? I really don't like that too much. I'd
prefer a Resistance cell and a shadow team. I'd be willing to do the
Resistance story. It sounds like it's right up my alley.

> <SNIP> Just to let you know, the next step, once we're agreed upon core
> plotlines, is to create the core characters - we need to come to an
> agreement about the professions, skills and abilities (and
> augmentations) and personalities of the characters involved in the core
> plotlines. You have free reign with your own characters, although it's
> best if you don't go over the top and make them godslayers, but we'll
> all be using the core characters, so it's best if we're all happy with
> them.
>
> Meanwhile, keep your ideas for your own stories coming in. Don't forget
> to take the core plotline/s into account - your stories have to hook
> into those in some way.
>
> If anyone else wishes to join as a writer, a planner, or whatever,
> speak up! We've got plenty of room still. I'd like to try and get 12 or
> 15 writers, if not more.
>
> (Btw, I'm sending this to the ShadowRN list as well to drum up support.
> :) If you're on the ShadowRN list and you don't know what this is
> about, speak to me or join the SRFanFic list.)
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
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Message no. 83
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:18:18 -0400
Just to let you know, the next step, once we're agreed upon core
plotlines, is to create the core characters - we need to come to an
agreement about the professions, skills and abilities (and
augmentations) and personalities of the characters involved in the core
plotlines. You have free reign with your own characters, although it's
best if you don't go over the top and make them godslayers, but we'll
all be using the core characters, so it's best if we're all happy with
them.

I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as a core character is
enough. I don't like writing for other people's characters (especially when
I don't know them well at all), nor do I want to read through everything
with a fine toothed comb to make sure I don't miss what finger got blown off
in the story before mine. Methinks that maybe showing an event that's
happening simultaneously with the stories that we're writing might be a
better idea...

Pink`
Message no. 84
From: Kismet kismet_sr@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:44:35 -0700 (PDT)
--- Drea <drea_@***.net> wrote:

>
> I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as
> a core character is
> enough. I don't like writing for other people's
> characters (especially when
> I don't know them well at all), nor do I want to
> read through everything
> with a fine toothed comb to make sure I don't miss
> what finger got blown off
> in the story before mine. Methinks that maybe
> showing an event that's
> happening simultaneously with the stories that we're
> writing might be a
> better idea...
>
> Pink`
>

You should know that none of this has been set in
stone. Right now we're just throwing out idea's to get
some feedback. This project is only three days old.
Any and all suggestions or comments are being
considered. What background event do you have in
mind? What would you like to see?

Kismet
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Message no. 85
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:57:40 -0400
> You should know that none of this has been set in
> stone. Right now we're just throwing out idea's to get
> some feedback. This project is only three days old.

Aye. I figured I should say something now, rather than a few weeks down the
road.

> Any and all suggestions or comments are being
> considered. What background event do you have in
> mind? What would you like to see?

Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running along the
rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened in another
story. That sort of thing. Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc as
the only real core "character" and the ability for the stories to stand up
on their own and not have to follow a chronological path.

Pink`
Message no. 86
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:13:28 -0400
Drea wrote:

> <SNIP>
> > Any and all suggestions or comments are being
> > considered. What background event do you have in
> > mind? What would you like to see?
>
> Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running along the
> rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened in another
> story. That sort of thing. Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc as
> the only real core "character" and the ability for the stories to stand up
> on their own and not have to follow a chronological path.
>
> Pink`

I think that is a decent idea. If you have one or two central storylines and
the stories take place in a chronological order, than what you must wait for is
for the person before you to finish their story, and the person after you must
wait while you write yours. And that doesn't even include rewriting, editing,
etcetera, etcetera. I think that having the background events should be the last
thing written.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 87
From: David Hayes rook.aerie@****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:13:17 -0700
>Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running
along the
>rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened in another
>story. That sort of thing. Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc
as
>the only real core "character" and the ability for the stories to stand
up
>on their own and not have to follow a chronological path.
>
>Pink`


i like this idea a lot better than having central characters we all
write about.
having the arc as the central theme in every story should be good enough
to tie them all together.
having the peripheral events from one story occassionally mentioned in
another(s) story is a great idea and will further cement the ties
between these stories. it will not be blatantly obvious to the reader
because the viewpoint may be different but consider this:

....you read one story that involved a running gun battle between a
runner group and some arc guards. another story has a newswoman hear
reports about the battle, or another story might have a bystander (in
the battle story) see it (the main char in this story). it would be even
better if we weren't too worried about chronological order of the
stories (mention that in the intro) and the bystander could see the
battle first, and then the battle story comes later. get my drift?
when the reader does make the connections they will get a sense of
satisfaction, of having figured it out, and will realize how these
stories affect each other. believe me when i say they will appreciate
that, it shows a respect for the reader's intelligence.

****now a warning: this is a very good technique for anthologies of this
kind but it should NOT be overused. every story does not have to have a
reference from another story or two in it. it should just happen enough
for the reader to realize it is there, no more, no less.
<grin> a fine line to walk i know.

so there is my first input as editor.

<<me who wishes he could write a story but does not have, nor plans to
get, RA:S>>

-----------------------------------------------
k. david hayes
rook.aerie@****.com
-----------------------------------------------
managing editor
ouc phoenix, kelowna b.c.
phoenix@******.bc.ca
-----------------------------------------------
campus plus board rep
western region
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 88
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:03:57 -0500
Rand Ratinac escribió:

......
>
>
>
> If anyone else wishes to join as a writer, a planner, or whatever,
> speak up! We've got plenty of room still. I'd like to try and get 12 or
> 15 writers, if not more.

Can i be a assitant Writer?, or devil lawyer? In Spanish i have no
problem but my english barely let me answer this mail. :-) or maybe i
could find a translator. What ever. i wish to be in the project.


Ahuizotl
Message no. 89
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:47:40 -0700
David Hayes wrote:
>
> >Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running
> along the
> >rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened in another
> >story. That sort of thing. Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc
> as
> >the only real core "character" and the ability for the stories to stand
> up
> >on their own and not have to follow a chronological path.
> >
> >Pink`
>
> i like this idea a lot better than having central characters we all
> write about.
> having the arc as the central theme in every story should be good enough
> to tie them all together.

Count me in as another advocate for the Arc being the only core
character. Like Pink, I don't like writing about other people's
characters, because I'm always worried that I'm stepping on someone's
toes. Also, if we have 12-15 people writing about the same characters,
the continuity is going to be a nightmare. I vote for the "everybody's
stories touch the common events and perhaps refer peripherally to
each other" approach.

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
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Message no. 90
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:23:35 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rat."
] Count me in as another advocate for the Arc being the only core
] character. Like Pink, I don't like writing about other people's
] characters, because I'm always worried that I'm stepping on someone's
] toes. Also, if we have 12-15 people writing about the same characters,
] the continuity is going to be a nightmare. I vote for the "everybody's
] stories touch the common events and perhaps refer peripherally to
] each other" approach.

I think the majority so far feels this way. I personally liked the
other idea (central characters), but the difficulties involved would
make it a very hard project indeed, so I'll have to concede to the
concept Rat outlined above (and David came up with, I believe). So,
perhaps we sould start tossing forth ideas about what the central event
is. Also, what is the length everyone thinks these stories should be?

-Murder of One
Message no. 91
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:24:20 -0400
> I think the majority so far feels this way. I personally liked the
> other idea (central characters), but the difficulties involved would
> make it a very hard project indeed, so I'll have to concede to the
> concept Rat outlined above (and David came up with, I believe). So,
> perhaps we sould start tossing forth ideas about what the central event
> is. Also, what is the length everyone thinks these stories should be?

Nope, that'd be me. Anyway...what other central event could there be but
the Arc? I mean, taking it down seems to be the biggest thing as far as a
central plot is concerned. I really can't think of anything else that would
bind the stories together and still fit into the scenery. There could be
decking stories (however short they'd be. :)), magic stories, human interest
stories, pretty much anything, all centered around getting the characters
in, out, rich, whatever, off the the Arc's going crazy. By showing one or
two things that happen in other stories in some of the later stories,
there's a good job of continuing the line.
Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
dude.
I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.

Pink`
Message no. 92
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:30:07 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Drea."
] Nope, that'd be me.

Oop, sorry.

] Anyway...what other central event could there be but
] the Arc?

Hmm...I thought the intent was to have a central event that occured
_in_ the arcology, not just the arcology situation itself. I think I
misinterpreted what folks were saying...

] Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
] bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
] anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
] dude.
] I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
] you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.

How many words do you think that is? 2,500?

-Murder of One
Message no. 93
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:55:49 -0400
> ] Nope, that'd be me.
> Oop, sorry.

S'okay. :)

> Hmm...I thought the intent was to have a central event that occured
> _in_ the arcology, not just the arcology situation itself. I think I
> misinterpreted what folks were saying...

Either that or me. :) My understanding of the RA:S book was that the
Arcology went crazy (I won't know for sure until this weekend or next week,
when I get the book). I think that the stuff happening in there was pretty
centered on staying alive in there.

> How many words do you think that is? 2,500?

Never actually bothered counting, myself. I think it's something like
5,000, but I'm not sure what dark cranny of my mind I'm pullin' that from.

Pink`
Message no. 94
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:20:30 -0400
Drea wrote:

> > I think the majority so far feels this way. I personally liked the
> > other idea (central characters), but the difficulties involved would
> > make it a very hard project indeed, so I'll have to concede to the
> > concept Rat outlined above (and David came up with, I believe). So,
> > perhaps we sould start tossing forth ideas about what the central event
> > is. Also, what is the length everyone thinks these stories should be?
>
> Nope, that'd be me. Anyway...what other central event could there be but
> the Arc?

Well, as already mentioned, a HUGE running gun battle through the entire Arc
with Deus's constructs and Resistance fighters and UCAS armed forces and Renraku
Red Samurai all because Deus' lost control of the main reactor for a few seconds
and there was a tiny bit of radiation leaking out. . . I wanna write this story!
It sounds cool! I like it! Can I? Please?

> I mean, taking it down seems to be the biggest thing as far as a
> central plot is concerned. I really can't think of anything else that would
> bind the stories together and still fit into the scenery. There could be
> decking stories (however short they'd be. :)), magic stories, human interest
> stories, pretty much anything, all centered around getting the characters
> in, out, rich, whatever, off the the Arc's going crazy. By showing one or
> two things that happen in other stories in some of the later stories,
> there's a good job of continuing the line.
> Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
> bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
> anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
> dude.
> I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
> you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.
>
> Pink`



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 95
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Can i be a assitant Writer?, or devil lawyer? In Spanish i have no
problem but my english barely let me answer this mail. :-) or maybe i
could find a translator. What ever. i wish to be in the project.
>
>
> Ahuizotl

Well, as a straight writer, I'm afraid you're likely to be more trouble
than you're worth, Ahuizotl. :)

On the other hand, if one of the writers speaks (and reads) Spanish and
wouldn't mind having a co-writer, we could certainly accomodate you
that way. Volunteers?

At any rate, you can certainly help with planning and ideas etc.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 96
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:05:34 -0700 (PDT)
> I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as a core character
is enough.
> Pink`

Who asked you??

Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of this
project...

*Doc' grumbles to himself...*

8-)

No, seriously, folks, I will be speaking about this once I've ploughed
through what everyone has to say on the matter.

Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but your
suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
project.

Btw, Pink - am I to assume you wish to join as one of the writers? :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 97
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's
to be bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but
I doubt anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious
to the max, dude. I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what
writes. At the least. If you're telling an effective story in less,
you aren't.
>
> Pink`

Just talking about story lengths here.

The maximum should be about 20-25 pages in length (10,000 to 12,500
words). As Rat likes to say, a little bit over is okay, but don't stomp
all over the limit.

The minimum would be, yes, about 10 pages, or 5,000 words. Again a bit
less is okay, but much lower than that tends to detract from the amount
of detail you can get in - and when you're dealing with the arc, detail
and atmosphere are everything.

There may be one or two larger stories, but that's just an idea
circulating around in my head atm. We'd reserve that for climactic
tales - i.e. the ones at the end.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 98
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:09:57 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> > I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as a core character
> is enough.
> > Pink`
>
> Who asked you??
>
> Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of this
> project...
>
> *Doc' grumbles to himself...*
>
> 8-)
>
> No, seriously, folks, I will be speaking about this once I've ploughed
> through what everyone has to say on the matter.
>
> Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but your
> suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
> project.
>
> Btw, Pink - am I to assume you wish to join as one of the writers? :)


I think I'm confused here. Are you saying that you don't like
the idea of having the Arc as a core character, and we *have*
to come up with a group of "shared" characters that everybody uses?

I certainly hope that second part isn't true, or at least that
we can have some more discussion about it before it's decided.
I would much prefer to work around pre-chosen events in my story,
but with characters of my own design rather than those designed
by the group.

If I'm thoroughly confused, just thwap me and I'll shut up. :)

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 99
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:53:48 -0700 (PDT)
> I think I'm confused here.

Yes, it looks that way. :) I'm going to try to be as clear as possible
about what I see as necessary for the story so we don't have any more
confusion.

> Are you saying that you don't like the idea of having the Arc as a
core character,

No, I'm saying that having the arc as a core 'character' isn't GOOD
ENOUGH.

People, anthologies, on the whole, don't sell well these days. Why?
Because a group of disconnected stories doesn't stack up well against a
novel. What's been discovered, however, is that linked anthologies go
over better - short stories which all have common elements and thus
combine to create a WHOLE. That's what I want to do.

However, I don't think that just having the arcology as the setting is
a strong enough link. I think there needs to be something more.
Possibly a common event as has been suggested, or, as I was intending,
a common thread.

See, an event is static. Yeah, how it effects different stories will be
different, but it's still the SAME event. A thread, on the other
hand...well, a thread could be interesting. A thread evolves towards a
final goal. My idea was to have two threads. Two teams. A
military/Renraku team, whose goal was to get Cliber and anyone else who
could help solve the Deus 'problem' out of the arcology. The second
thread was a shadow team with a more modest goal. They wanted to rescue
a person - just one person - a relative/lover/really good friend of one
of the teammembers. The story of these two quests would then evolve
throughout the book to a final resolution.

Yes, it's ambitious, but with some work, I think it can be done. And
I'm prepared to put that work in.

> and we *have* to come up with a group of "shared" characters

Yes, sorta - this is what I intended to do, but that may change as we
discuss things more.

> that everybody uses?

NO!!! Big N-O! The idea is to have central, group-created characters
involved with the central threads. Two people (or more for a
collaboration) would write stories introducing these characters. After
that, anyone could do whatever they wanted, so long as their stories,
at some point, advanced the central threads along. Bumping into one of
the core groups and talking to them would be good enough. As would just
seeing the characters doing something, as long as it advanced the goals
of those characters. If the characters needed to get from the ground
floor to the 20th floor to fulfill their goal, and the previous story
placed the characters on the 10th floor, then the next story would be
good enough IF it placed the characters at the 11th floor, or 12th
floor. See what I'm saying?

You DON'T have to write your stories using the central characters as
YOUR central characters. You can make up whatever characters you like,
use them however you want - as long as your story advanced the central
threads in some way.

Then, at the end, the last story (I can see this one being a
collaborative effort) would resolve the central threads.

At least, that was my original plan. As I said before, yes, it's
ambitious. But ambition is the kind of thing you need. Don't forget,
people, I intend to take this to FASA and try to get them to publish
it. We're not going to stand a chance if the book's just another
ordinary anthology.

> I certainly hope that second part isn't true, or at least that we can
have some more discussion about it before it's decided.

Not entirely true and not decided.

> I would much prefer to work around pre-chosen events in my story, but
with characters of my own design rather than those designed by the
group.

Yes, that's exactly my intention, although instead of pre-chosen
events, I want to substitute group-created characters and their goals.
Plus, you wouldn't exactly have to work around the characters - you
just have to fit them in...believably.

Okay, that's my "grand vision". If you guys think it's a bad idea, then
we can change it. On the other hand, if you don't want to do that
because you think it'd be too hard...bzzzt, wrong!! That's not an
excuse. You don't have to worry about getting every little detail
right, and timing everything to perfection. We've got four editors at
the moment whose job it is to catch continuity errors and the like. You
don't even have to worry about getting the personalities of the central
characters right. Why? Because you DON'T have to write from their point
of view!! They can be a peripheral element in your story if you're
uncomfortable with them taking centre stage.

As for the objection about 'not liking to write with other people's
characters', well, that's why I want us to create the characters as a
group.

Okay, that's my big piece. Now I'll be going through to address other
concerns as brought up in other mail.

Anyway, this is what I'd really like to do. If you really don't like
the core threads that I've suggested, that's fine, we'll change them if
you can come up with better ideas. If you really don't like the idea of
core threads and just want to work around a single event, then, okay,
if that's the majority opinion, that's what we'll do. But this has to
be big! It has to be impressive! It has to be a major event! It has to
be ambitious! Otherwise, what's the point, huh?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 100
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:16:36 -0700 (PDT)
> I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as a core character
is enough.

Well, as I've said, I totally disagree with that. The arc in itself
ISN'T enough. IMNSHO. :)

> I don't like writing for other people's characters (especially when I
don't know them well at all)

Again, as I said, you don't HAVE to write for other people's
characters. You can create your own. All you'll need to do is INCLUDE
the group characters in some way.

> nor do I want to read through everything with a fine toothed comb to
make sure I don't miss what finger got blown off in the story before
mine.

Okay, you don't HAVE to do that. That's the job of the editors. Your
job is to write the story and, hopefully, have a good time doing so. :)
Of course, if you could keep LARGER continuity issues in mind, that'd
be useful. (A finger isn't a problem - centering a story around a
character who dies in a previous story could be :) ).

The other thing you have to remember is that, with disconnected
stories, continuity can be a bit fluid. For example, if the above
problem DID happen to crop up, we could do something like this -
rearrange the stories so that the story centering on the dead character
happens BEFORE the story that KILLS the character. Then we'd just have
to change placement so that the two stories took place in appropriate
areas of the arc.

Not THAT hard, is it?

> Methinks that maybe showing an event that's happening simultaneously
with the stories that we're writing might be a better idea...
> Pink`

Personally, I think this is a poor second, but if it's the majority
opinion, then that's what we'll do.

Don't give up on me easily, though, people. I have confidence in you! :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 101
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT)
> Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running
along the rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened
in another story. That sort of thing.

Okay, this kind of thing would be good WHICHEVER way we format the
story.

> Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc as the only real core
"character" and the ability for the stories to stand up on their own
and not have to follow a chronological path.
> Pink`

As I said, I disagree with that. Yes, with my idea, a bit of chronology
will be required. But as I explained in a previous message, it can be
fluid if we're careful.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 102
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:25:22 -0700 (PDT)
> i like this idea a lot better than having central characters we all
write about.

As I've said, that's NOT the plan. *sigh* Pink, you and your
scare-mongering.

8-)

> having the arc as the central theme in every story should be good
enough to tie them all together.

Yes, that would be good enough to tie them together. No, it would not
be good enough to make the overall package stand out from the crowd.
Something special is required for that.

Anyway, I think we've decided that the plain 'all the stories are set
in the arcology' idea is a no-go.

> having the peripheral events from one story occassionally mentioned
in another(s) story is a great idea and will further cement the ties
between these stories. it will not be blatantly obvious to the reader
because the viewpoint may be different but consider this:
>
> ....you read one story that involved a running gun battle between a
runner group and some arc guards. another story has a newswoman hear
reports about the battle, or another story might have a bystander (in
the battle story) see it (the main char in this story).

Yes, this is all good no matter which way we go.

> <<me who wishes he could write a story but does not have, nor plans
to get, RA:S>>

As I've said, I'm afraid RA:S is a required resource for writers.

On the other hand, as I've also said, Steve Kenson is auctioning off a
copy fairly cheaply on ebay. I think the asking price was $5US last I looked.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 103
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
> I think that is a decent idea.

Decent...not brilliant...:)

> If you have one or two central storylines and the stories take place
in a chronological order, than what you must wait for is for the person
before you to finish their story, and the person after you must wait
while you write yours. And that doesn't even include rewriting,
editing, etcetera, etcetera.
> --Strago

As I said, chronology can be made fluid by creative editing. Plus, only
two or three stories would focus on the central characters (unless you
wanted to use them for your own stories). These characters would have a
peripheral effect on other stories, so problems with timing could be
straightened up in the editing stage.

See, here's how I see it being done. We have a definite starting story,
or two possibly. We have a definite finishing story. And then we have a
whole bunch of stories in the middle that can be arranged as needed in
whatever order and these can all be worked on at the same time. Sure,
that'll require some rewriting, but that'd be required no matter how we
did it.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 104
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:43:07 -0700 (PDT)
> Count me in as another advocate for the Arc being the only core
character. Like Pink, I don't like writing about other people's
characters, because I'm always worried that I'm stepping on someone's
toes.

Then you don't HAVE to write about the central characters. Just include
them somewhere.

Sorry, I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but I want to get my
point across. I REALLY REALLY think that having core threads as opposed
to events is a very good idea, and it would make the stories that much
more memorable...and saleable. :)

> Also, if we have 12-15 people writing about the same characters, the
continuity is going to be a nightmare.

But we aren't - not exactly.
==Doc'
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Message no. 105
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
> Either that or me. :) My understanding of the RA:S book was that the
Arcology went crazy (I won't know for sure until this weekend or next
week, when I get the book).

Yes and no. The AEP (Arcology Expert Program) has evolved into an AI,
which is calling itself 'Deus'. Deus is what's causing the problems.
Him and his Otaku disciples.

> I think that the stuff happening in there was pretty centered on
staying alive in there.

Yes, it is - but that can't be the only goals of the characters. Maybe
they're looking for someone. Maybe they want to find out what's really
going on. Maybe they just want to escape.

Plain, old survival can get a bit boring. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 106
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:03:25 -0700 (PDT)
> Well, as already mentioned, a HUGE running gun battle through the
entire Arc with Deus's constructs and Resistance fighters and UCAS
armed forces and Renraku Red Samurai all because Deus' lost control of
the main reactor for a few seconds and there was a tiny bit of
radiation leaking out. . . I wanna write this story! It sounds cool! I
like it! Can I? Please?

Too big. At least, the 'reactor control' part is. I can't see Deus
being that careless anyway. Maybe if someone took control. The thing
is, we don't want to do anything that will have any large, lasting
effects. Such as a radiation leak in a heavily populated building.

On the other hand, if you substitute 'shadow team' for UCAS armed
forces and you substitute 'blues' for Red Samurai (the real,
uncontrolled Red Samurai are part of the resistance now, so you can use
them too), then that could certainly be a goer.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 107
From: CEvans9159@***.com CEvans9159@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 04:54:45 EDT
In a message dated 5/27/99 10:08:56 PM, winterhawk@*********.net writes:

>I think I'm confused here. Are you saying that you don't like
>the idea of having the Arc as a core character, and we *have*
>to come up with a group of "shared" characters that everybody uses?
>
>I certainly hope that second part isn't true, or at least that
>we can have some more discussion about it before it's decided.
>I would much prefer to work around pre-chosen events in my story,
>but with characters of my own design rather than those designed
>by the group.
>
>If I'm thoroughly confused, just thwap me and I'll shut up. :)


Go read the SR novel, "Into The Shadows." It is a group of short stories
that are stories unto themselves whole and complete. But each story has some
sort of information or some occurance that manages to advance a hidden
underlying story that isn't revealed til the end.
None of the characters in each story have to be the same as any of the
other stories. But something in each story manages to have some sort of
impact on a Underlying storyline.

Say the underlying story has someone looking to find a key to unlock
a door.
maybe one of the short stories has someone Getting killed who drops the
key down a grate and hears it clinking and clattering down some shaft.
Later on...the underlying story at the end of the book has the guy
find a key lying under neath a hole in the ceiling of the passageway he is
walking through.

did I make it any more understandable...or did I just confuse people more.
That is what you're going for, right Doc?
Message no. 108
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:36:38 -0500
Rand Ratinac escribió:
>

And another Bla BLa BLa from other mail about what the doc whant to do
with the proyect and about send it to FASA and BLA BLA BLA

I only can said

CLAP CLAP CLAP applause

I realy (no joke) admire this way of view a challenge


> Don't give up on me easily, though, people. I have confidence in you! :)
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

Ahuizotl
OK she dont look so ugly anymore
Message no. 109
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:22:31 -0500
>
> Well, as a straight writer, I'm afraid you're likely to be more trouble
> than you're worth, Ahuizotl. :)

My opinion too :-)

>
> On the other hand, if one of the writers speaks (and reads) Spanish and
> wouldn't mind having a co-writer, we could certainly accomodate you
> that way. Volunteers?

Thanks for the effort. Maybe I will find a good translator :-)

>
> At any rate, you can certainly help with planning and ideas etc.

sound good to me

Ahuizotl
She is ugly but she is 100% english speaker. Shadowrun worth the
sacrifice?
Message no. 110
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:38:45 -0400
Ahuizotl wrote:

> >
> <SNIP>
> Ahuizotl
> She is ugly but she is 100% english speaker. Shadowrun worth the
> sacrifice?

Is that a joke or a signature or a real question?

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 111
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:44:08 -0400
> Who asked you??
> Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of this
> project...
> Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but your
> suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
> project.

I'm sorry, I thought this was an open forum of ideas. I didn't realize that
my suggestion, which a good number of list members liked, wasn't of a high
enough standard for this group project. I apologize.

> Btw, Pink - am I to assume you wish to join as one of the writers? :)

It's moved from seriously considering to maybe on a cold day.

Pink`
Message no. 112
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:27:14 -0400
Drea wrote:

> > Who asked you??
> > Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of this
> > project...
> > Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but your
> > suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
> > project.
>
> I'm sorry, I thought this was an open forum of ideas. I didn't realize that
> my suggestion, which a good number of list members liked, wasn't of a high
> enough standard for this group project. I apologize.
>

Wow. Touchy, touchy. I think Doc' was joking. Maybe he should have put emoticons
up.As for your suggestion, after duly considering both ideas, I kinda like
Rand's idea. If you wrote, you wouldn't HAVE to use the main characters at all.
All you need is for one of your characters to SEE or HEAR something about
something going on in one of the main plotlines. That's not too difficult a
thing to ask, now is it? It's not like you are being forced to write something
you don't want using characters not your own. Oh, and if my language sounds
harsh, allow me to place a big old ;^) over all of it. I don't mean to be harsh
or critical. I'm just writing on impulse here. Ask my friends, sometimes I say
or write stupid things. ;^(

> > Btw, Pink - am I to assume you wish to join as one of the writers? :)
>
> It's moved from seriously considering to maybe on a cold day.
>
> Pink`

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 113
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:46:59 -0400
> Rand's idea. If you wrote, you wouldn't HAVE to use the main characters at
all.
> All you need is for one of your characters to SEE or HEAR something about
> something going on in one of the main plotlines.

Erm...that's what I suggested, actually, that he didn't think was good
enough. Yes, emoticons help quite a bit.

Pink`
Message no. 114
From: Logan Graves logan1@*****.intercom.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:47:40 -0400
Drea wrote:
>
> Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
> bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
> anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
> dude.

Right, I finally found the time to re-re-sub to this incarnation of the old
SRFIC list and it looks as if, I'll actually have time to write too. So, if
you're still accepting authors on this project, count me in!

> I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
> you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.

'Tho in all fairness, I gotta warn you, my "short stories" tend to run
long--sometimes frightfully long. But as someone remarked, that's what editors
are for...

--Fenris
______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Fenrir shamans are mean and ruthless individuals who have
a disturbing tendency to treat others like their next meal.
(>) MitS, pg 158
Message no. 115
From: Logan Graves logan1@*****.intercom.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:55:54 -0400
In our last episode, Drea wrote:
>
> Never actually bothered counting, myself. I think it's something like
> 5,000, but I'm not sure what dark cranny of my mind I'm pullin' that from.

According to many publishers:
1 "word" = 5 characters

Standard ROC paperback: ("Into the Shadows," actually)
60 chars per line average (including spaces)
= 12 words per line

43 lines per page
x 12 words
= 516 words per page

SO: 10 pages would *indeed* be roughly 5000 words!!

Good guess Pinkers!!
--Fenris
______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Fenrir shamans are mean and ruthless individuals who have
a disturbing tendency to treat others like their next meal.
(>) Magic in the Shadows, pg 158
Message no. 116
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:15:48 -0400
Even though I'm primary going to lurk on this project (mainly because I
already have enough fanfic projects up in the air right now), here's some
thoughts:


The first question is who do you write about (and I imagine that you've
been over this one a couple of times). Let's do this by the numbers:
A) A shadowrunning team: Not the most likely choice. Deniable asset,
yes. But one likely to fail. If there's a shadow team involved, they
were probably already inside when the shutdown happened in the first
place.
B) Delta team: This is far more likely, given that they'd have the
training, equipment, and knowhow to deal with the "crisis".

Second Question: Method of insertion. This is just as critical as the
first question and depends partly upon the objective. If the goal is to
isolate Deus, then it's a simple matter of physically cutting and
seperating the land lines. The sat uplink and the like is a little
trickier (personally, I'd do it with a high powered sniper rifle or an
assault cannon or maybe fall back to suicide drones).

Third Question: Objective. Why are they going in? Is the objective to
deactivate Deus or simply to extract certain people from within the
structure? How much discretion does the insertion team have and what
conditions allow the team to abort the operation?

Fourth Question: Available resources. What are they taking with them to
accomplish their objective? Obviously a running team will have different
gear than a Delta team.

Fifth Question: Opposition. How does Deus detect the insertion team?
How does he deal with them? Does he deal with them at all?

With those things in mind I'd start designing my cast, etc for the
written environment.

*************************************************************************
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Message no. 117
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:21:10 -0400
Logan Graves wrote:

> Drea wrote:
> >
> > Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
> > bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
> > anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
> > dude.
>
> Right, I finally found the time to re-re-sub to this incarnation of the old
> SRFIC list and it looks as if, I'll actually have time to write too. So, if
> you're still accepting authors on this project, count me in!

OK! You've read all the discussion that's taken place so far, right? If not, I'll
send it to you tomorrow. It's 1:20 AM and I'm tired.

> > I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
> > you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.
>
> 'Tho in all fairness, I gotta warn you, my "short stories" tend to run
> long--sometimes frightfully long. But as someone remarked, that's what editors
> are for...
>
> --Fenris
>

My plots also run long. However, I make up with it by lack of description. It's
just my style. Again, editors help. . .

> ______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
> (>) Fenrir shamans are mean and ruthless individuals who have
> a disturbing tendency to treat others like their next meal.
> (>) MitS, pg 158



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-
Message no. 118
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:25:16 -0400
Hunter wrote:

> Even though I'm primary going to lurk on this project (mainly because I
> already have enough fanfic projects up in the air right now), here's some
> thoughts:
>
> The first question is who do you write about (and I imagine that you've
> been over this one a couple of times). Let's do this by the numbers:
> A) A shadowrunning team: Not the most likely choice. Deniable asset,
> yes. But one likely to fail. If there's a shadow team involved, they
> were probably already inside when the shutdown happened in the first
> place.
>

We're planning (tentatively, no one bite my head off!) on having one of the two main
groups being a shadowrunning team who are hired to find someone inside.

> B) Delta team: This is far more likely, given that they'd have the
> training, equipment, and knowhow to deal with the "crisis".
>

This sounds like the second team. They are going for Dr. Cliber.

> Second Question: Method of insertion. This is just as critical as the
> first question and depends partly upon the objective. If the goal is to
> isolate Deus, then it's a simple matter of physically cutting and
> seperating the land lines. The sat uplink and the like is a little
> trickier (personally, I'd do it with a high powered sniper rifle or an
> assault cannon or maybe fall back to suicide drones).
>

The book has a few ideas on how to get in. Including the method a team already used.

> Third Question: Objective. Why are they going in? Is the objective to
> deactivate Deus or simply to extract certain people from within the
> structure? How much discretion does the insertion team have and what
> conditions allow the team to abort the operation?
>

Already answered.

> Fourth Question: Available resources. What are they taking with them to
> accomplish their objective? Obviously a running team will have different
> gear than a Delta team.
>
> Fifth Question: Opposition. How does Deus detect the insertion team?
> How does he deal with them? Does he deal with them at all?
>
> With those things in mind I'd start designing my cast, etc for the
> written environment.
>
> <SNIP SIG>

Of course, this is JUST for the two main threads. The writers of the stories have
FULL discretion.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-
Message no. 119
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:03:56 -0500
Strago escribió:
>
> Ahuizotl wrote:
>
> > >
> > <SNIP>
> > Ahuizotl
> > She is ugly but she is 100% english speaker. Shadowrun worth the
> > sacrifice?
>
> Is that a joke or a signature or a real question?
>
> --
> --Strago

its a joke, well a semi joke is about a girl I know who is 100% english
speaker and want to go out with me. an she would be glad to help me
translate the things that i write to the list :-(
Message no. 120
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:46:20 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Who asked you??
> > > Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of
this project...

> > > Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but
your suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
project.
> >
> > I'm sorry, I thought this was an open forum of ideas. I didn't
realize that my suggestion, which a good number of list members liked,
wasn't of a high enough standard for this group project. I apologize.

Pink - as Strago said, I was joking - at least for the first part. You
must've missed the smiley I put AFTER the mock-serious part of my post.
My apologies if you misunderstood.

As for the idea - okay, I should probably have put a big IMO in there
too. I was merely referring to the idea of having the only link between
the stories being the arcology itself. I hope I later explained myself
clearly about WHY I don't think that's good enough in this case.

Again, apologies for any offense I caused. I would hope that you'll be
woman enough to forgive me. (Joke! Joke!! :) )

Anyway, I haven't gone through all the mail on the project yet, so
further input from yours truly will have to wait. I wanted to apologise
to you as soon as possible, though.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 121
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
> > On the other hand, if one of the writers speaks (and reads) Spanish
and wouldn't mind having a co-writer, we could certainly accomodate you
that way. Volunteers?
>
> Thanks for the effort. Maybe I will find a good translator :-)

Might help. Anyway, we'll see what we can do to get you involved. I
don't want to cut out ANYONE who'd like to be in on this.


> She is ugly but she is 100% english speaker. Shadowrun worth the
sacrifice?

*lol*

Personally, I'd say no, but then I'm terribly shallow like that. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 122
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
> And another Bla BLa BLa from other mail about what the doc whant to
do with the proyect and about send it to FASA and BLA BLA BLA
>
> I only can said
>
> CLAP CLAP CLAP applause
>
> I realy (no joke) admire this way of view a challenge
>
> Ahuizotl
> OK she dont look so ugly anymore

*Doc' takes a bow...*

Careful, Ahuizotl - my head's swelled enough already as it is. :)

Btw, what does "Ahuizotl" translate into in English?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 123
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:25:27 +1000
> Personally, I'd say no, but then I'm terribly shallow like that. :)

This coming from you 'Doc?

Isn't that like a simsense junkie saying that Holly Brighton is just
"plain" ?

--
***
"You never listen, do you?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 124
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT)
> Go read the SR novel, "Into The Shadows." It is a group of short
stories that are stories unto themselves whole and complete. But each
story has some sort of information or some occurance that manages to
advance a hidden underlying story that isn't revealed til the end.

Ayup. That's what I've based the idea on, although with certain
differences.


> None of the characters in each story have to be the same as any of
the other stories. But something in each story manages to have some
sort of impact on a Underlying storyline.

Exactamundo.

> Say the underlying story has someone looking to find a key to unlock
a door.
> maybe one of the short stories has someone Getting killed who
drops the key down a grate and hears it clinking and clattering down
some shaft.
> Later on...the underlying story at the end of the book has the
guy find a key lying under neath a hole in the ceiling of the
passageway he is walking through.
>
> did I make it any more understandable...or did I just confuse
people more.
> That is what you're going for, right Doc?

Simplified, but yes, that's pretty much the idea. Except in this case,
I thought about it and the common threads (IMO, of course) should be
characters - AND their objectives.

So, one of the main objectives of the military/Renraku team (in my
suggested core threads) is to grab Vanessa Cliber and get her out of
the arcology. If you were writing a story about the Resistance (of
which Dr. Cliber is a part), you could have the team show up at some
stage. On the other hand you could have Cliber being captured by Deus'
blues. They both advance the plot, because in the first example,
whatever happens to the characters moves their quest forward, and in
the second example, what happens to Cliber changes what the team will
need to do to fulfill their goal - which, again, advances their quest.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 125
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:51:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > Personally, I'd say no, but then I'm terribly shallow like that. :)
>
> This coming from you 'Doc?
>
> Isn't that like a simsense junkie saying that Holly Brighton is just
"plain" ?

*Doc' grrrrs...*

Watch it, boy.

I know where you live...

8-)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 126
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Right, I finally found the time to re-re-sub to this incarnation of
the old SRFIC list and it looks as if, I'll actually have time to write
too. So, if you're still accepting authors on this project, count me
in!
>
> 'Tho in all fairness, I gotta warn you, my "short stories" tend to
run long--sometimes frightfully long. But as someone remarked, that's
what editors are for...

Quite -

Welcome to the team, Fenris.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 127
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
> Even though I'm primary going to lurk on this project (mainly
because I already have enough fanfic projects up in the air right now),
here's some thoughts:
>
>
> The first question is who do you write about (and I imagine that
you've been over this one a couple of times). Let's do this by the
numbers:
> A) A shadowrunning team: Not the most likely choice. Deniable
asset, yes. But one likely to fail. If there's a shadow team
involved, they were probably already inside when the shutdown happened
in the first place.

Yes and no. Yes, they are unlikely to be hired by Renraku or the UCAS
military to go in. On the other hand, private citizens would be likely
to hire them. Also, my intention for a shadow team was NOT to have them
being hired, but to be going in for their own purposes.


> B) Delta team: This is far more likely, given that they'd have the
training, equipment, and knowhow to deal with the "crisis".

Them or a Renraku black ops squad, depending on who's sponsoring the
mission.

Btw, does anyone know anything about the UCAS military in 2060?


> Second Question: Method of insertion. This is just as critical as
the first question and depends partly upon the objective. If the goal
is to isolate Deus, then it's a simple matter of physically cutting and
seperating the land lines. The sat uplink and the like is a little
trickier (personally, I'd do it with a high powered sniper rifle or an
assault cannon or maybe fall back to suicide drones).

Insertion will be required, otherwise it won't be a good story. :) As
I've been asking, if anyone's run this adventure - HOW DID YOU GET IN??
Right now I have two good ways to get in and one interesting, but
possibly unworkable way.


> Third Question: Objective. Why are they going in? Is the objective
to deactivate Deus or simply to extract certain people from within the
structure? How much discretion does the insertion team have and what
conditions allow the team to abort the operation?

Okay - MY idea is that we have two teams (one shadow, one
militar/Renraku) and they're going in for a snatch and grab on people.
The shadow team has its own discretion. The other team is pretty much
on a do or die mission - or at least, that's how I see it turning out.
More on this later.


> Fourth Question: Available resources. What are they taking with
them to accomplish their objective? Obviously a running team will have
different gear than a Delta team.

Obviously. Something to address once we've decided on what exactly we
want to do. :)

> Fifth Question: Opposition. How does Deus detect the insertion
team?

No guarantee he does - he doesn't CONSCIOUSLY controll all his drones
and blues. He may only start taking note of the teams at later stages.


> How does he deal with them? Does he deal with them at all?

Again, debatable.


> With those things in mind I'd start designing my cast, etc for the
written environment.

Thanks for the input, Hunter. I'll certainly remember to bring these
points up once we get to that stage.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 128
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 04:39:59 -0400
> Insertion will be required, otherwise it won't be a good story. :) As
> I've been asking, if anyone's run this adventure - HOW DID YOU GET IN??
> Right now I have two good ways to get in and one interesting, but
> possibly unworkable way.

I thought this was a family list! Gah, sorry, bad joke. Forgive me, I've
been up too long...

Pink`
Message no. 129
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:38:47 -0700 (PDT)
This will have to be quick, people. I'm running WAY late.

Anyway, it looks like now that people understand my intentions fully,
more of you are interested in my ideas for the structure.

So can we get a consensus? Either let us know if you'd like to follow
my idea, or come up with your own that you think is better. I'd like to
get this initial planning stage out of the way over the next day or
two.

Okay?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 130
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 06:38:35 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Simplified, but yes, that's pretty much the idea. Except in this case,
] I thought about it and the common threads (IMO, of course) should be
] characters - AND their objectives.
]
] So, one of the main objectives of the military/Renraku team (in my
] suggested core threads) is to grab Vanessa Cliber and get her out of
] the arcology. If you were writing a story about the Resistance (of
] which Dr. Cliber is a part), you could have the team show up at some
] stage. On the other hand you could have Cliber being captured by Deus'
] blues. They both advance the plot, because in the first example,
] whatever happens to the characters moves their quest forward, and in
] the second example, what happens to Cliber changes what the team will
] need to do to fulfill their goal - which, again, advances their quest.

And then there's the other question: do both teams succeed in their
goals? Obviously, it would be easy for the heroes to win, but is that
A) realistic given Deus' power, and B) a better plot device than having
one team succeed and one fail? I've never liked the
good-wins-over-evil-just-'cause-it's-good angle, and prefer to have a
little more realism in my fiction. Granted, I could be wrong here, but
what does everyone else think?

-Murder of One
Message no. 131
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:49:18 EDT
In a message dated 5/31/1999 2:16:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> Btw, what does "Ahuizotl" translate into in English?

IN all honesty, I don't believe it does. Someone I know whom I spoke with a
couple of weeks ago said the closest *english* translation of the name into a
single word name would be Alan. (shrug)

(snipped huge, long, entomological/phonetic, translation)

-K
Message no. 132
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:54:03 EDT
In a message dated 5/31/1999 3:41:33 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> So can we get a consensus? Either let us know if you'd like to follow
> my idea, or come up with your own that you think is better. I'd like to
> get this initial planning stage out of the way over the next day or
> two.
>
Go for it oh fearful leader, lead us into the fray of chaos and death.... :)

-K
Message no. 133
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
Hey, peeps,

I've been getting organised, collating ideas, names and the like.

So far we have 7 writers on the list, with another one coming,
hopefully.

Demonnic Bloodbather <demonnic@*********.net>
Doc’ <DocWagon101@*****.com>
Iridios <iridios@*********.com>
Rat <winterhawk@*********.net>
Roger Nicholls <roger@*******.freeserve.co.uk>
Strago <strago@***.com>
Tay-Dor <CEvans9159@***.com>

Then there's our three editors:
David Hayes <rook.aerie@****.com>
Doc’ <DocWagon101@*****.com>
Strago <strago@***.com>

And finally, our three planners:
Kismet <kismet_sr@*****.com>
Severian Burdick <h2owarrior@*******.com>
Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>

(Severian came up with a couple of ideas - I'm not sure if he wants to
be on the planning crew, but he's welcome.)

Anyway, if you want to be involved and your name isn't on any of the
lists, let me know.

Next: our first order of business is to decide on what the core
plotline/s will be.

I've suggested we use two interweaving plotlines, focusing on two
separate groups - a Renraku or UCAS military team and a shadow team.

There haven't been any other suggestions for core plotlines, so please
get in any ideas or let us know if you're satisfied with my suggestion.
All this should go straight to the list.

Just to let you know, the next step, once we're agreed upon core
plotlines, is to create the core characters - we need to come to an
agreement about the professions, skills and abilities (and
augmentations) and personalities of the characters involved in the core
plotlines. You have free reign with your own characters, although it's
best if you don't go over the top and make them godslayers, but we'll
all be using the core characters, so it's best if we're all happy with
them.

Meanwhile, keep your ideas for your own stories coming in. Don't forget
to take the core plotline/s into account - your stories have to hook
into those in some way.

If anyone else wishes to join as a writer, a planner, or whatever,
speak up! We've got plenty of room still. I'd like to try and get 12 or
15 writers, if not more.

(Btw, I'm sending this to the ShadowRN list as well to drum up support.
:) If you're on the ShadowRN list and you don't know what this is
about, speak to me or join the SRFanFic list.)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 134
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:40:09 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Next: our first order of business is to decide on what the core
> plotline/s will be.
>
> I've suggested we use two interweaving plotlines, focusing on two
> separate groups - a Renraku or UCAS military team and a shadow team.
>

Two teams entering the Arcology? I really don't like that too much. I'd
prefer a Resistance cell and a shadow team. I'd be willing to do the
Resistance story. It sounds like it's right up my alley.

> <SNIP> Just to let you know, the next step, once we're agreed upon core
> plotlines, is to create the core characters - we need to come to an
> agreement about the professions, skills and abilities (and
> augmentations) and personalities of the characters involved in the core
> plotlines. You have free reign with your own characters, although it's
> best if you don't go over the top and make them godslayers, but we'll
> all be using the core characters, so it's best if we're all happy with
> them.
>
> Meanwhile, keep your ideas for your own stories coming in. Don't forget
> to take the core plotline/s into account - your stories have to hook
> into those in some way.
>
> If anyone else wishes to join as a writer, a planner, or whatever,
> speak up! We've got plenty of room still. I'd like to try and get 12 or
> 15 writers, if not more.
>
> (Btw, I'm sending this to the ShadowRN list as well to drum up support.
> :) If you're on the ShadowRN list and you don't know what this is
> about, speak to me or join the SRFanFic list.)
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.


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Message no. 135
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:18:18 -0400
Just to let you know, the next step, once we're agreed upon core
plotlines, is to create the core characters - we need to come to an
agreement about the professions, skills and abilities (and
augmentations) and personalities of the characters involved in the core
plotlines. You have free reign with your own characters, although it's
best if you don't go over the top and make them godslayers, but we'll
all be using the core characters, so it's best if we're all happy with
them.

I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as a core character is
enough. I don't like writing for other people's characters (especially when
I don't know them well at all), nor do I want to read through everything
with a fine toothed comb to make sure I don't miss what finger got blown off
in the story before mine. Methinks that maybe showing an event that's
happening simultaneously with the stories that we're writing might be a
better idea...

Pink`
Message no. 136
From: Kismet kismet_sr@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:44:35 -0700 (PDT)
--- Drea <drea_@***.net> wrote:

>
> I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as
> a core character is
> enough. I don't like writing for other people's
> characters (especially when
> I don't know them well at all), nor do I want to
> read through everything
> with a fine toothed comb to make sure I don't miss
> what finger got blown off
> in the story before mine. Methinks that maybe
> showing an event that's
> happening simultaneously with the stories that we're
> writing might be a
> better idea...
>
> Pink`
>

You should know that none of this has been set in
stone. Right now we're just throwing out idea's to get
some feedback. This project is only three days old.
Any and all suggestions or comments are being
considered. What background event do you have in
mind? What would you like to see?

Kismet
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Message no. 137
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:57:40 -0400
> You should know that none of this has been set in
> stone. Right now we're just throwing out idea's to get
> some feedback. This project is only three days old.

Aye. I figured I should say something now, rather than a few weeks down the
road.

> Any and all suggestions or comments are being
> considered. What background event do you have in
> mind? What would you like to see?

Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running along the
rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened in another
story. That sort of thing. Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc as
the only real core "character" and the ability for the stories to stand up
on their own and not have to follow a chronological path.

Pink`
Message no. 138
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:13:28 -0400
Drea wrote:

> <SNIP>
> > Any and all suggestions or comments are being
> > considered. What background event do you have in
> > mind? What would you like to see?
>
> Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running along the
> rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened in another
> story. That sort of thing. Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc as
> the only real core "character" and the ability for the stories to stand up
> on their own and not have to follow a chronological path.
>
> Pink`

I think that is a decent idea. If you have one or two central storylines and
the stories take place in a chronological order, than what you must wait for is
for the person before you to finish their story, and the person after you must
wait while you write yours. And that doesn't even include rewriting, editing,
etcetera, etcetera. I think that having the background events should be the last
thing written.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 139
From: David Hayes rook.aerie@****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:13:17 -0700
>Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running
along the
>rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened in another
>story. That sort of thing. Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc
as
>the only real core "character" and the ability for the stories to stand
up
>on their own and not have to follow a chronological path.
>
>Pink`


i like this idea a lot better than having central characters we all
write about.
having the arc as the central theme in every story should be good enough
to tie them all together.
having the peripheral events from one story occassionally mentioned in
another(s) story is a great idea and will further cement the ties
between these stories. it will not be blatantly obvious to the reader
because the viewpoint may be different but consider this:

....you read one story that involved a running gun battle between a
runner group and some arc guards. another story has a newswoman hear
reports about the battle, or another story might have a bystander (in
the battle story) see it (the main char in this story). it would be even
better if we weren't too worried about chronological order of the
stories (mention that in the intro) and the bystander could see the
battle first, and then the battle story comes later. get my drift?
when the reader does make the connections they will get a sense of
satisfaction, of having figured it out, and will realize how these
stories affect each other. believe me when i say they will appreciate
that, it shows a respect for the reader's intelligence.

****now a warning: this is a very good technique for anthologies of this
kind but it should NOT be overused. every story does not have to have a
reference from another story or two in it. it should just happen enough
for the reader to realize it is there, no more, no less.
<grin> a fine line to walk i know.

so there is my first input as editor.

<<me who wishes he could write a story but does not have, nor plans to
get, RA:S>>

-----------------------------------------------
k. david hayes
rook.aerie@****.com
-----------------------------------------------
managing editor
ouc phoenix, kelowna b.c.
phoenix@******.bc.ca
-----------------------------------------------
campus plus board rep
western region
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 140
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:03:57 -0500
Rand Ratinac escribió:

......
>
>
>
> If anyone else wishes to join as a writer, a planner, or whatever,
> speak up! We've got plenty of room still. I'd like to try and get 12 or
> 15 writers, if not more.

Can i be a assitant Writer?, or devil lawyer? In Spanish i have no
problem but my english barely let me answer this mail. :-) or maybe i
could find a translator. What ever. i wish to be in the project.


Ahuizotl
Message no. 141
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:47:40 -0700
David Hayes wrote:
>
> >Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running
> along the
> >rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened in another
> >story. That sort of thing. Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc
> as
> >the only real core "character" and the ability for the stories to stand
> up
> >on their own and not have to follow a chronological path.
> >
> >Pink`
>
> i like this idea a lot better than having central characters we all
> write about.
> having the arc as the central theme in every story should be good enough
> to tie them all together.

Count me in as another advocate for the Arc being the only core
character. Like Pink, I don't like writing about other people's
characters, because I'm always worried that I'm stepping on someone's
toes. Also, if we have 12-15 people writing about the same characters,
the continuity is going to be a nightmare. I vote for the "everybody's
stories touch the common events and perhaps refer peripherally to
each other" approach.

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 142
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:23:35 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rat."
] Count me in as another advocate for the Arc being the only core
] character. Like Pink, I don't like writing about other people's
] characters, because I'm always worried that I'm stepping on someone's
] toes. Also, if we have 12-15 people writing about the same characters,
] the continuity is going to be a nightmare. I vote for the "everybody's
] stories touch the common events and perhaps refer peripherally to
] each other" approach.

I think the majority so far feels this way. I personally liked the
other idea (central characters), but the difficulties involved would
make it a very hard project indeed, so I'll have to concede to the
concept Rat outlined above (and David came up with, I believe). So,
perhaps we sould start tossing forth ideas about what the central event
is. Also, what is the length everyone thinks these stories should be?

-Murder of One
Message no. 143
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:24:20 -0400
> I think the majority so far feels this way. I personally liked the
> other idea (central characters), but the difficulties involved would
> make it a very hard project indeed, so I'll have to concede to the
> concept Rat outlined above (and David came up with, I believe). So,
> perhaps we sould start tossing forth ideas about what the central event
> is. Also, what is the length everyone thinks these stories should be?

Nope, that'd be me. Anyway...what other central event could there be but
the Arc? I mean, taking it down seems to be the biggest thing as far as a
central plot is concerned. I really can't think of anything else that would
bind the stories together and still fit into the scenery. There could be
decking stories (however short they'd be. :)), magic stories, human interest
stories, pretty much anything, all centered around getting the characters
in, out, rich, whatever, off the the Arc's going crazy. By showing one or
two things that happen in other stories in some of the later stories,
there's a good job of continuing the line.
Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
dude.
I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.

Pink`
Message no. 144
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:30:07 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Drea."
] Nope, that'd be me.

Oop, sorry.

] Anyway...what other central event could there be but
] the Arc?

Hmm...I thought the intent was to have a central event that occured
_in_ the arcology, not just the arcology situation itself. I think I
misinterpreted what folks were saying...

] Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
] bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
] anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
] dude.
] I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
] you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.

How many words do you think that is? 2,500?

-Murder of One
Message no. 145
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:55:49 -0400
> ] Nope, that'd be me.
> Oop, sorry.

S'okay. :)

> Hmm...I thought the intent was to have a central event that occured
> _in_ the arcology, not just the arcology situation itself. I think I
> misinterpreted what folks were saying...

Either that or me. :) My understanding of the RA:S book was that the
Arcology went crazy (I won't know for sure until this weekend or next week,
when I get the book). I think that the stuff happening in there was pretty
centered on staying alive in there.

> How many words do you think that is? 2,500?

Never actually bothered counting, myself. I think it's something like
5,000, but I'm not sure what dark cranny of my mind I'm pullin' that from.

Pink`
Message no. 146
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:20:30 -0400
Drea wrote:

> > I think the majority so far feels this way. I personally liked the
> > other idea (central characters), but the difficulties involved would
> > make it a very hard project indeed, so I'll have to concede to the
> > concept Rat outlined above (and David came up with, I believe). So,
> > perhaps we sould start tossing forth ideas about what the central event
> > is. Also, what is the length everyone thinks these stories should be?
>
> Nope, that'd be me. Anyway...what other central event could there be but
> the Arc?

Well, as already mentioned, a HUGE running gun battle through the entire Arc
with Deus's constructs and Resistance fighters and UCAS armed forces and Renraku
Red Samurai all because Deus' lost control of the main reactor for a few seconds
and there was a tiny bit of radiation leaking out. . . I wanna write this story!
It sounds cool! I like it! Can I? Please?

> I mean, taking it down seems to be the biggest thing as far as a
> central plot is concerned. I really can't think of anything else that would
> bind the stories together and still fit into the scenery. There could be
> decking stories (however short they'd be. :)), magic stories, human interest
> stories, pretty much anything, all centered around getting the characters
> in, out, rich, whatever, off the the Arc's going crazy. By showing one or
> two things that happen in other stories in some of the later stories,
> there's a good job of continuing the line.
> Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
> bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
> anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
> dude.
> I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
> you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.
>
> Pink`



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 147
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Can i be a assitant Writer?, or devil lawyer? In Spanish i have no
problem but my english barely let me answer this mail. :-) or maybe i
could find a translator. What ever. i wish to be in the project.
>
>
> Ahuizotl

Well, as a straight writer, I'm afraid you're likely to be more trouble
than you're worth, Ahuizotl. :)

On the other hand, if one of the writers speaks (and reads) Spanish and
wouldn't mind having a co-writer, we could certainly accomodate you
that way. Volunteers?

At any rate, you can certainly help with planning and ideas etc.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 148
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:05:34 -0700 (PDT)
> I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as a core character
is enough.
> Pink`

Who asked you??

Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of this
project...

*Doc' grumbles to himself...*

8-)

No, seriously, folks, I will be speaking about this once I've ploughed
through what everyone has to say on the matter.

Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but your
suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
project.

Btw, Pink - am I to assume you wish to join as one of the writers? :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 149
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's
to be bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but
I doubt anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious
to the max, dude. I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what
writes. At the least. If you're telling an effective story in less,
you aren't.
>
> Pink`

Just talking about story lengths here.

The maximum should be about 20-25 pages in length (10,000 to 12,500
words). As Rat likes to say, a little bit over is okay, but don't stomp
all over the limit.

The minimum would be, yes, about 10 pages, or 5,000 words. Again a bit
less is okay, but much lower than that tends to detract from the amount
of detail you can get in - and when you're dealing with the arc, detail
and atmosphere are everything.

There may be one or two larger stories, but that's just an idea
circulating around in my head atm. We'd reserve that for climactic
tales - i.e. the ones at the end.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 150
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:09:57 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> > I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as a core character
> is enough.
> > Pink`
>
> Who asked you??
>
> Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of this
> project...
>
> *Doc' grumbles to himself...*
>
> 8-)
>
> No, seriously, folks, I will be speaking about this once I've ploughed
> through what everyone has to say on the matter.
>
> Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but your
> suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
> project.
>
> Btw, Pink - am I to assume you wish to join as one of the writers? :)


I think I'm confused here. Are you saying that you don't like
the idea of having the Arc as a core character, and we *have*
to come up with a group of "shared" characters that everybody uses?

I certainly hope that second part isn't true, or at least that
we can have some more discussion about it before it's decided.
I would much prefer to work around pre-chosen events in my story,
but with characters of my own design rather than those designed
by the group.

If I'm thoroughly confused, just thwap me and I'll shut up. :)

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
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Message no. 151
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:53:48 -0700 (PDT)
> I think I'm confused here.

Yes, it looks that way. :) I'm going to try to be as clear as possible
about what I see as necessary for the story so we don't have any more
confusion.

> Are you saying that you don't like the idea of having the Arc as a
core character,

No, I'm saying that having the arc as a core 'character' isn't GOOD
ENOUGH.

People, anthologies, on the whole, don't sell well these days. Why?
Because a group of disconnected stories doesn't stack up well against a
novel. What's been discovered, however, is that linked anthologies go
over better - short stories which all have common elements and thus
combine to create a WHOLE. That's what I want to do.

However, I don't think that just having the arcology as the setting is
a strong enough link. I think there needs to be something more.
Possibly a common event as has been suggested, or, as I was intending,
a common thread.

See, an event is static. Yeah, how it effects different stories will be
different, but it's still the SAME event. A thread, on the other
hand...well, a thread could be interesting. A thread evolves towards a
final goal. My idea was to have two threads. Two teams. A
military/Renraku team, whose goal was to get Cliber and anyone else who
could help solve the Deus 'problem' out of the arcology. The second
thread was a shadow team with a more modest goal. They wanted to rescue
a person - just one person - a relative/lover/really good friend of one
of the teammembers. The story of these two quests would then evolve
throughout the book to a final resolution.

Yes, it's ambitious, but with some work, I think it can be done. And
I'm prepared to put that work in.

> and we *have* to come up with a group of "shared" characters

Yes, sorta - this is what I intended to do, but that may change as we
discuss things more.

> that everybody uses?

NO!!! Big N-O! The idea is to have central, group-created characters
involved with the central threads. Two people (or more for a
collaboration) would write stories introducing these characters. After
that, anyone could do whatever they wanted, so long as their stories,
at some point, advanced the central threads along. Bumping into one of
the core groups and talking to them would be good enough. As would just
seeing the characters doing something, as long as it advanced the goals
of those characters. If the characters needed to get from the ground
floor to the 20th floor to fulfill their goal, and the previous story
placed the characters on the 10th floor, then the next story would be
good enough IF it placed the characters at the 11th floor, or 12th
floor. See what I'm saying?

You DON'T have to write your stories using the central characters as
YOUR central characters. You can make up whatever characters you like,
use them however you want - as long as your story advanced the central
threads in some way.

Then, at the end, the last story (I can see this one being a
collaborative effort) would resolve the central threads.

At least, that was my original plan. As I said before, yes, it's
ambitious. But ambition is the kind of thing you need. Don't forget,
people, I intend to take this to FASA and try to get them to publish
it. We're not going to stand a chance if the book's just another
ordinary anthology.

> I certainly hope that second part isn't true, or at least that we can
have some more discussion about it before it's decided.

Not entirely true and not decided.

> I would much prefer to work around pre-chosen events in my story, but
with characters of my own design rather than those designed by the
group.

Yes, that's exactly my intention, although instead of pre-chosen
events, I want to substitute group-created characters and their goals.
Plus, you wouldn't exactly have to work around the characters - you
just have to fit them in...believably.

Okay, that's my "grand vision". If you guys think it's a bad idea, then
we can change it. On the other hand, if you don't want to do that
because you think it'd be too hard...bzzzt, wrong!! That's not an
excuse. You don't have to worry about getting every little detail
right, and timing everything to perfection. We've got four editors at
the moment whose job it is to catch continuity errors and the like. You
don't even have to worry about getting the personalities of the central
characters right. Why? Because you DON'T have to write from their point
of view!! They can be a peripheral element in your story if you're
uncomfortable with them taking centre stage.

As for the objection about 'not liking to write with other people's
characters', well, that's why I want us to create the characters as a
group.

Okay, that's my big piece. Now I'll be going through to address other
concerns as brought up in other mail.

Anyway, this is what I'd really like to do. If you really don't like
the core threads that I've suggested, that's fine, we'll change them if
you can come up with better ideas. If you really don't like the idea of
core threads and just want to work around a single event, then, okay,
if that's the majority opinion, that's what we'll do. But this has to
be big! It has to be impressive! It has to be a major event! It has to
be ambitious! Otherwise, what's the point, huh?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 152
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:16:36 -0700 (PDT)
> I....don't like this idea much. I think the Arc as a core character
is enough.

Well, as I've said, I totally disagree with that. The arc in itself
ISN'T enough. IMNSHO. :)

> I don't like writing for other people's characters (especially when I
don't know them well at all)

Again, as I said, you don't HAVE to write for other people's
characters. You can create your own. All you'll need to do is INCLUDE
the group characters in some way.

> nor do I want to read through everything with a fine toothed comb to
make sure I don't miss what finger got blown off in the story before
mine.

Okay, you don't HAVE to do that. That's the job of the editors. Your
job is to write the story and, hopefully, have a good time doing so. :)
Of course, if you could keep LARGER continuity issues in mind, that'd
be useful. (A finger isn't a problem - centering a story around a
character who dies in a previous story could be :) ).

The other thing you have to remember is that, with disconnected
stories, continuity can be a bit fluid. For example, if the above
problem DID happen to crop up, we could do something like this -
rearrange the stories so that the story centering on the dead character
happens BEFORE the story that KILLS the character. Then we'd just have
to change placement so that the two stories took place in appropriate
areas of the arc.

Not THAT hard, is it?

> Methinks that maybe showing an event that's happening simultaneously
with the stories that we're writing might be a better idea...
> Pink`

Personally, I think this is a poor second, but if it's the majority
opinion, then that's what we'll do.

Don't give up on me easily, though, people. I have confidence in you! :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 153
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT)
> Background events such as seeing someone else's characters running
along the rafters being chased, or hearing an explosion that happened
in another story. That sort of thing.

Okay, this kind of thing would be good WHICHEVER way we format the
story.

> Like I said, what I want to see is the Arc as the only real core
"character" and the ability for the stories to stand up on their own
and not have to follow a chronological path.
> Pink`

As I said, I disagree with that. Yes, with my idea, a bit of chronology
will be required. But as I explained in a previous message, it can be
fluid if we're careful.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 154
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:25:22 -0700 (PDT)
> i like this idea a lot better than having central characters we all
write about.

As I've said, that's NOT the plan. *sigh* Pink, you and your
scare-mongering.

8-)

> having the arc as the central theme in every story should be good
enough to tie them all together.

Yes, that would be good enough to tie them together. No, it would not
be good enough to make the overall package stand out from the crowd.
Something special is required for that.

Anyway, I think we've decided that the plain 'all the stories are set
in the arcology' idea is a no-go.

> having the peripheral events from one story occassionally mentioned
in another(s) story is a great idea and will further cement the ties
between these stories. it will not be blatantly obvious to the reader
because the viewpoint may be different but consider this:
>
> ....you read one story that involved a running gun battle between a
runner group and some arc guards. another story has a newswoman hear
reports about the battle, or another story might have a bystander (in
the battle story) see it (the main char in this story).

Yes, this is all good no matter which way we go.

> <<me who wishes he could write a story but does not have, nor plans
to get, RA:S>>

As I've said, I'm afraid RA:S is a required resource for writers.

On the other hand, as I've also said, Steve Kenson is auctioning off a
copy fairly cheaply on ebay. I think the asking price was $5US last I looked.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 155
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
> I think that is a decent idea.

Decent...not brilliant...:)

> If you have one or two central storylines and the stories take place
in a chronological order, than what you must wait for is for the person
before you to finish their story, and the person after you must wait
while you write yours. And that doesn't even include rewriting,
editing, etcetera, etcetera.
> --Strago

As I said, chronology can be made fluid by creative editing. Plus, only
two or three stories would focus on the central characters (unless you
wanted to use them for your own stories). These characters would have a
peripheral effect on other stories, so problems with timing could be
straightened up in the editing stage.

See, here's how I see it being done. We have a definite starting story,
or two possibly. We have a definite finishing story. And then we have a
whole bunch of stories in the middle that can be arranged as needed in
whatever order and these can all be worked on at the same time. Sure,
that'll require some rewriting, but that'd be required no matter how we
did it.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 156
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:43:07 -0700 (PDT)
> Count me in as another advocate for the Arc being the only core
character. Like Pink, I don't like writing about other people's
characters, because I'm always worried that I'm stepping on someone's
toes.

Then you don't HAVE to write about the central characters. Just include
them somewhere.

Sorry, I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but I want to get my
point across. I REALLY REALLY think that having core threads as opposed
to events is a very good idea, and it would make the stories that much
more memorable...and saleable. :)

> Also, if we have 12-15 people writing about the same characters, the
continuity is going to be a nightmare.

But we aren't - not exactly.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 157
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
> Either that or me. :) My understanding of the RA:S book was that the
Arcology went crazy (I won't know for sure until this weekend or next
week, when I get the book).

Yes and no. The AEP (Arcology Expert Program) has evolved into an AI,
which is calling itself 'Deus'. Deus is what's causing the problems.
Him and his Otaku disciples.

> I think that the stuff happening in there was pretty centered on
staying alive in there.

Yes, it is - but that can't be the only goals of the characters. Maybe
they're looking for someone. Maybe they want to find out what's really
going on. Maybe they just want to escape.

Plain, old survival can get a bit boring. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 158
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:03:25 -0700 (PDT)
> Well, as already mentioned, a HUGE running gun battle through the
entire Arc with Deus's constructs and Resistance fighters and UCAS
armed forces and Renraku Red Samurai all because Deus' lost control of
the main reactor for a few seconds and there was a tiny bit of
radiation leaking out. . . I wanna write this story! It sounds cool! I
like it! Can I? Please?

Too big. At least, the 'reactor control' part is. I can't see Deus
being that careless anyway. Maybe if someone took control. The thing
is, we don't want to do anything that will have any large, lasting
effects. Such as a radiation leak in a heavily populated building.

On the other hand, if you substitute 'shadow team' for UCAS armed
forces and you substitute 'blues' for Red Samurai (the real,
uncontrolled Red Samurai are part of the resistance now, so you can use
them too), then that could certainly be a goer.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 159
From: CEvans9159@***.com CEvans9159@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 04:54:45 EDT
In a message dated 5/27/99 10:08:56 PM, winterhawk@*********.net writes:

>I think I'm confused here. Are you saying that you don't like
>the idea of having the Arc as a core character, and we *have*
>to come up with a group of "shared" characters that everybody uses?
>
>I certainly hope that second part isn't true, or at least that
>we can have some more discussion about it before it's decided.
>I would much prefer to work around pre-chosen events in my story,
>but with characters of my own design rather than those designed
>by the group.
>
>If I'm thoroughly confused, just thwap me and I'll shut up. :)


Go read the SR novel, "Into The Shadows." It is a group of short stories
that are stories unto themselves whole and complete. But each story has some
sort of information or some occurance that manages to advance a hidden
underlying story that isn't revealed til the end.
None of the characters in each story have to be the same as any of the
other stories. But something in each story manages to have some sort of
impact on a Underlying storyline.

Say the underlying story has someone looking to find a key to unlock
a door.
maybe one of the short stories has someone Getting killed who drops the
key down a grate and hears it clinking and clattering down some shaft.
Later on...the underlying story at the end of the book has the guy
find a key lying under neath a hole in the ceiling of the passageway he is
walking through.

did I make it any more understandable...or did I just confuse people more.
That is what you're going for, right Doc?
Message no. 160
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:36:38 -0500
Rand Ratinac escribió:
>

And another Bla BLa BLa from other mail about what the doc whant to do
with the proyect and about send it to FASA and BLA BLA BLA

I only can said

CLAP CLAP CLAP applause

I realy (no joke) admire this way of view a challenge


> Don't give up on me easily, though, people. I have confidence in you! :)
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

Ahuizotl
OK she dont look so ugly anymore
Message no. 161
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:22:31 -0500
>
> Well, as a straight writer, I'm afraid you're likely to be more trouble
> than you're worth, Ahuizotl. :)

My opinion too :-)

>
> On the other hand, if one of the writers speaks (and reads) Spanish and
> wouldn't mind having a co-writer, we could certainly accomodate you
> that way. Volunteers?

Thanks for the effort. Maybe I will find a good translator :-)

>
> At any rate, you can certainly help with planning and ideas etc.

sound good to me

Ahuizotl
She is ugly but she is 100% english speaker. Shadowrun worth the
sacrifice?
Message no. 162
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:38:45 -0400
Ahuizotl wrote:

> >
> <SNIP>
> Ahuizotl
> She is ugly but she is 100% english speaker. Shadowrun worth the
> sacrifice?

Is that a joke or a signature or a real question?

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 163
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:44:08 -0400
> Who asked you??
> Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of this
> project...
> Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but your
> suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
> project.

I'm sorry, I thought this was an open forum of ideas. I didn't realize that
my suggestion, which a good number of list members liked, wasn't of a high
enough standard for this group project. I apologize.

> Btw, Pink - am I to assume you wish to join as one of the writers? :)

It's moved from seriously considering to maybe on a cold day.

Pink`
Message no. 164
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:27:14 -0400
Drea wrote:

> > Who asked you??
> > Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of this
> > project...
> > Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but your
> > suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
> > project.
>
> I'm sorry, I thought this was an open forum of ideas. I didn't realize that
> my suggestion, which a good number of list members liked, wasn't of a high
> enough standard for this group project. I apologize.
>

Wow. Touchy, touchy. I think Doc' was joking. Maybe he should have put emoticons
up.As for your suggestion, after duly considering both ideas, I kinda like
Rand's idea. If you wrote, you wouldn't HAVE to use the main characters at all.
All you need is for one of your characters to SEE or HEAR something about
something going on in one of the main plotlines. That's not too difficult a
thing to ask, now is it? It's not like you are being forced to write something
you don't want using characters not your own. Oh, and if my language sounds
harsh, allow me to place a big old ;^) over all of it. I don't mean to be harsh
or critical. I'm just writing on impulse here. Ask my friends, sometimes I say
or write stupid things. ;^(

> > Btw, Pink - am I to assume you wish to join as one of the writers? :)
>
> It's moved from seriously considering to maybe on a cold day.
>
> Pink`

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 165
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:46:59 -0400
> Rand's idea. If you wrote, you wouldn't HAVE to use the main characters at
all.
> All you need is for one of your characters to SEE or HEAR something about
> something going on in one of the main plotlines.

Erm...that's what I suggested, actually, that he didn't think was good
enough. Yes, emoticons help quite a bit.

Pink`
Message no. 166
From: Logan Graves logan1@*****.intercom.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:47:40 -0400
Drea wrote:
>
> Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
> bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
> anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
> dude.

Right, I finally found the time to re-re-sub to this incarnation of the old
SRFIC list and it looks as if, I'll actually have time to write too. So, if
you're still accepting authors on this project, count me in!

> I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
> you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.

'Tho in all fairness, I gotta warn you, my "short stories" tend to run
long--sometimes frightfully long. But as someone remarked, that's what editors
are for...

--Fenris
______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Fenrir shamans are mean and ruthless individuals who have
a disturbing tendency to treat others like their next meal.
(>) MitS, pg 158
Message no. 167
From: Logan Graves logan1@*****.intercom.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:55:54 -0400
In our last episode, Drea wrote:
>
> Never actually bothered counting, myself. I think it's something like
> 5,000, but I'm not sure what dark cranny of my mind I'm pullin' that from.

According to many publishers:
1 "word" = 5 characters

Standard ROC paperback: ("Into the Shadows," actually)
60 chars per line average (including spaces)
= 12 words per line

43 lines per page
x 12 words
= 516 words per page

SO: 10 pages would *indeed* be roughly 5000 words!!

Good guess Pinkers!!
--Fenris
______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Fenrir shamans are mean and ruthless individuals who have
a disturbing tendency to treat others like their next meal.
(>) Magic in the Shadows, pg 158
Message no. 168
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:15:48 -0400
Even though I'm primary going to lurk on this project (mainly because I
already have enough fanfic projects up in the air right now), here's some
thoughts:


The first question is who do you write about (and I imagine that you've
been over this one a couple of times). Let's do this by the numbers:
A) A shadowrunning team: Not the most likely choice. Deniable asset,
yes. But one likely to fail. If there's a shadow team involved, they
were probably already inside when the shutdown happened in the first
place.
B) Delta team: This is far more likely, given that they'd have the
training, equipment, and knowhow to deal with the "crisis".

Second Question: Method of insertion. This is just as critical as the
first question and depends partly upon the objective. If the goal is to
isolate Deus, then it's a simple matter of physically cutting and
seperating the land lines. The sat uplink and the like is a little
trickier (personally, I'd do it with a high powered sniper rifle or an
assault cannon or maybe fall back to suicide drones).

Third Question: Objective. Why are they going in? Is the objective to
deactivate Deus or simply to extract certain people from within the
structure? How much discretion does the insertion team have and what
conditions allow the team to abort the operation?

Fourth Question: Available resources. What are they taking with them to
accomplish their objective? Obviously a running team will have different
gear than a Delta team.

Fifth Question: Opposition. How does Deus detect the insertion team?
How does he deal with them? Does he deal with them at all?

With those things in mind I'd start designing my cast, etc for the
written environment.

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Message no. 169
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:21:10 -0400
Logan Graves wrote:

> Drea wrote:
> >
> > Most short stories are about 15-16 pages for the short ones. That's to be
> > bundled in a 200 page book. Some blow up to about 50+ pages, but I doubt
> > anyone here is gonna go that crazy, unless they're loquacious to the max,
> > dude.
>
> Right, I finally found the time to re-re-sub to this incarnation of the old
> SRFIC list and it looks as if, I'll actually have time to write too. So, if
> you're still accepting authors on this project, count me in!

OK! You've read all the discussion that's taken place so far, right? If not, I'll
send it to you tomorrow. It's 1:20 AM and I'm tired.

> > I'm gunning for a 10 page goal for everyone what writes. At the least. If
> > you're telling an effective story in less, you aren't.
>
> 'Tho in all fairness, I gotta warn you, my "short stories" tend to run
> long--sometimes frightfully long. But as someone remarked, that's what editors
> are for...
>
> --Fenris
>

My plots also run long. However, I make up with it by lack of description. It's
just my style. Again, editors help. . .

> ______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
> (>) Fenrir shamans are mean and ruthless individuals who have
> a disturbing tendency to treat others like their next meal.
> (>) MitS, pg 158



--
--Strago

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Message no. 170
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:25:16 -0400
Hunter wrote:

> Even though I'm primary going to lurk on this project (mainly because I
> already have enough fanfic projects up in the air right now), here's some
> thoughts:
>
> The first question is who do you write about (and I imagine that you've
> been over this one a couple of times). Let's do this by the numbers:
> A) A shadowrunning team: Not the most likely choice. Deniable asset,
> yes. But one likely to fail. If there's a shadow team involved, they
> were probably already inside when the shutdown happened in the first
> place.
>

We're planning (tentatively, no one bite my head off!) on having one of the two main
groups being a shadowrunning team who are hired to find someone inside.

> B) Delta team: This is far more likely, given that they'd have the
> training, equipment, and knowhow to deal with the "crisis".
>

This sounds like the second team. They are going for Dr. Cliber.

> Second Question: Method of insertion. This is just as critical as the
> first question and depends partly upon the objective. If the goal is to
> isolate Deus, then it's a simple matter of physically cutting and
> seperating the land lines. The sat uplink and the like is a little
> trickier (personally, I'd do it with a high powered sniper rifle or an
> assault cannon or maybe fall back to suicide drones).
>

The book has a few ideas on how to get in. Including the method a team already used.

> Third Question: Objective. Why are they going in? Is the objective to
> deactivate Deus or simply to extract certain people from within the
> structure? How much discretion does the insertion team have and what
> conditions allow the team to abort the operation?
>

Already answered.

> Fourth Question: Available resources. What are they taking with them to
> accomplish their objective? Obviously a running team will have different
> gear than a Delta team.
>
> Fifth Question: Opposition. How does Deus detect the insertion team?
> How does he deal with them? Does he deal with them at all?
>
> With those things in mind I'd start designing my cast, etc for the
> written environment.
>
> <SNIP SIG>

Of course, this is JUST for the two main threads. The writers of the stories have
FULL discretion.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 171
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:03:56 -0500
Strago escribió:
>
> Ahuizotl wrote:
>
> > >
> > <SNIP>
> > Ahuizotl
> > She is ugly but she is 100% english speaker. Shadowrun worth the
> > sacrifice?
>
> Is that a joke or a signature or a real question?
>
> --
> --Strago

its a joke, well a semi joke is about a girl I know who is 100% english
speaker and want to go out with me. an she would be glad to help me
translate the things that i write to the list :-(
Message no. 172
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:46:20 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Who asked you??
> > > Damn, I KNEW I should have made myself the absolute dictator of
this project...

> > > Right now, let me just say, Pink, I understand how you feel, but
your suggestion is just not good enough, not for the purposes of the
project.
> >
> > I'm sorry, I thought this was an open forum of ideas. I didn't
realize that my suggestion, which a good number of list members liked,
wasn't of a high enough standard for this group project. I apologize.

Pink - as Strago said, I was joking - at least for the first part. You
must've missed the smiley I put AFTER the mock-serious part of my post.
My apologies if you misunderstood.

As for the idea - okay, I should probably have put a big IMO in there
too. I was merely referring to the idea of having the only link between
the stories being the arcology itself. I hope I later explained myself
clearly about WHY I don't think that's good enough in this case.

Again, apologies for any offense I caused. I would hope that you'll be
woman enough to forgive me. (Joke! Joke!! :) )

Anyway, I haven't gone through all the mail on the project yet, so
further input from yours truly will have to wait. I wanted to apologise
to you as soon as possible, though.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 173
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
> > On the other hand, if one of the writers speaks (and reads) Spanish
and wouldn't mind having a co-writer, we could certainly accomodate you
that way. Volunteers?
>
> Thanks for the effort. Maybe I will find a good translator :-)

Might help. Anyway, we'll see what we can do to get you involved. I
don't want to cut out ANYONE who'd like to be in on this.


> She is ugly but she is 100% english speaker. Shadowrun worth the
sacrifice?

*lol*

Personally, I'd say no, but then I'm terribly shallow like that. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 174
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
> And another Bla BLa BLa from other mail about what the doc whant to
do with the proyect and about send it to FASA and BLA BLA BLA
>
> I only can said
>
> CLAP CLAP CLAP applause
>
> I realy (no joke) admire this way of view a challenge
>
> Ahuizotl
> OK she dont look so ugly anymore

*Doc' takes a bow...*

Careful, Ahuizotl - my head's swelled enough already as it is. :)

Btw, what does "Ahuizotl" translate into in English?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 175
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:25:27 +1000
> Personally, I'd say no, but then I'm terribly shallow like that. :)

This coming from you 'Doc?

Isn't that like a simsense junkie saying that Holly Brighton is just
"plain" ?

--
***
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The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 176
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT)
> Go read the SR novel, "Into The Shadows." It is a group of short
stories that are stories unto themselves whole and complete. But each
story has some sort of information or some occurance that manages to
advance a hidden underlying story that isn't revealed til the end.

Ayup. That's what I've based the idea on, although with certain
differences.


> None of the characters in each story have to be the same as any of
the other stories. But something in each story manages to have some
sort of impact on a Underlying storyline.

Exactamundo.

> Say the underlying story has someone looking to find a key to unlock
a door.
> maybe one of the short stories has someone Getting killed who
drops the key down a grate and hears it clinking and clattering down
some shaft.
> Later on...the underlying story at the end of the book has the
guy find a key lying under neath a hole in the ceiling of the
passageway he is walking through.
>
> did I make it any more understandable...or did I just confuse
people more.
> That is what you're going for, right Doc?

Simplified, but yes, that's pretty much the idea. Except in this case,
I thought about it and the common threads (IMO, of course) should be
characters - AND their objectives.

So, one of the main objectives of the military/Renraku team (in my
suggested core threads) is to grab Vanessa Cliber and get her out of
the arcology. If you were writing a story about the Resistance (of
which Dr. Cliber is a part), you could have the team show up at some
stage. On the other hand you could have Cliber being captured by Deus'
blues. They both advance the plot, because in the first example,
whatever happens to the characters moves their quest forward, and in
the second example, what happens to Cliber changes what the team will
need to do to fulfill their goal - which, again, advances their quest.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 177
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:51:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > Personally, I'd say no, but then I'm terribly shallow like that. :)
>
> This coming from you 'Doc?
>
> Isn't that like a simsense junkie saying that Holly Brighton is just
"plain" ?

*Doc' grrrrs...*

Watch it, boy.

I know where you live...

8-)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 178
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Right, I finally found the time to re-re-sub to this incarnation of
the old SRFIC list and it looks as if, I'll actually have time to write
too. So, if you're still accepting authors on this project, count me
in!
>
> 'Tho in all fairness, I gotta warn you, my "short stories" tend to
run long--sometimes frightfully long. But as someone remarked, that's
what editors are for...

Quite -

Welcome to the team, Fenris.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 179
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
> Even though I'm primary going to lurk on this project (mainly
because I already have enough fanfic projects up in the air right now),
here's some thoughts:
>
>
> The first question is who do you write about (and I imagine that
you've been over this one a couple of times). Let's do this by the
numbers:
> A) A shadowrunning team: Not the most likely choice. Deniable
asset, yes. But one likely to fail. If there's a shadow team
involved, they were probably already inside when the shutdown happened
in the first place.

Yes and no. Yes, they are unlikely to be hired by Renraku or the UCAS
military to go in. On the other hand, private citizens would be likely
to hire them. Also, my intention for a shadow team was NOT to have them
being hired, but to be going in for their own purposes.


> B) Delta team: This is far more likely, given that they'd have the
training, equipment, and knowhow to deal with the "crisis".

Them or a Renraku black ops squad, depending on who's sponsoring the
mission.

Btw, does anyone know anything about the UCAS military in 2060?


> Second Question: Method of insertion. This is just as critical as
the first question and depends partly upon the objective. If the goal
is to isolate Deus, then it's a simple matter of physically cutting and
seperating the land lines. The sat uplink and the like is a little
trickier (personally, I'd do it with a high powered sniper rifle or an
assault cannon or maybe fall back to suicide drones).

Insertion will be required, otherwise it won't be a good story. :) As
I've been asking, if anyone's run this adventure - HOW DID YOU GET IN??
Right now I have two good ways to get in and one interesting, but
possibly unworkable way.


> Third Question: Objective. Why are they going in? Is the objective
to deactivate Deus or simply to extract certain people from within the
structure? How much discretion does the insertion team have and what
conditions allow the team to abort the operation?

Okay - MY idea is that we have two teams (one shadow, one
militar/Renraku) and they're going in for a snatch and grab on people.
The shadow team has its own discretion. The other team is pretty much
on a do or die mission - or at least, that's how I see it turning out.
More on this later.


> Fourth Question: Available resources. What are they taking with
them to accomplish their objective? Obviously a running team will have
different gear than a Delta team.

Obviously. Something to address once we've decided on what exactly we
want to do. :)

> Fifth Question: Opposition. How does Deus detect the insertion
team?

No guarantee he does - he doesn't CONSCIOUSLY controll all his drones
and blues. He may only start taking note of the teams at later stages.


> How does he deal with them? Does he deal with them at all?

Again, debatable.


> With those things in mind I'd start designing my cast, etc for the
written environment.

Thanks for the input, Hunter. I'll certainly remember to bring these
points up once we get to that stage.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 180
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 04:39:59 -0400
> Insertion will be required, otherwise it won't be a good story. :) As
> I've been asking, if anyone's run this adventure - HOW DID YOU GET IN??
> Right now I have two good ways to get in and one interesting, but
> possibly unworkable way.

I thought this was a family list! Gah, sorry, bad joke. Forgive me, I've
been up too long...

Pink`
Message no. 181
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:38:47 -0700 (PDT)
This will have to be quick, people. I'm running WAY late.

Anyway, it looks like now that people understand my intentions fully,
more of you are interested in my ideas for the structure.

So can we get a consensus? Either let us know if you'd like to follow
my idea, or come up with your own that you think is better. I'd like to
get this initial planning stage out of the way over the next day or
two.

Okay?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 182
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 06:38:35 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Simplified, but yes, that's pretty much the idea. Except in this case,
] I thought about it and the common threads (IMO, of course) should be
] characters - AND their objectives.
]
] So, one of the main objectives of the military/Renraku team (in my
] suggested core threads) is to grab Vanessa Cliber and get her out of
] the arcology. If you were writing a story about the Resistance (of
] which Dr. Cliber is a part), you could have the team show up at some
] stage. On the other hand you could have Cliber being captured by Deus'
] blues. They both advance the plot, because in the first example,
] whatever happens to the characters moves their quest forward, and in
] the second example, what happens to Cliber changes what the team will
] need to do to fulfill their goal - which, again, advances their quest.

And then there's the other question: do both teams succeed in their
goals? Obviously, it would be easy for the heroes to win, but is that
A) realistic given Deus' power, and B) a better plot device than having
one team succeed and one fail? I've never liked the
good-wins-over-evil-just-'cause-it's-good angle, and prefer to have a
little more realism in my fiction. Granted, I could be wrong here, but
what does everyone else think?

-Murder of One
Message no. 183
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:49:18 EDT
In a message dated 5/31/1999 2:16:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> Btw, what does "Ahuizotl" translate into in English?

IN all honesty, I don't believe it does. Someone I know whom I spoke with a
couple of weeks ago said the closest *english* translation of the name into a
single word name would be Alan. (shrug)

(snipped huge, long, entomological/phonetic, translation)

-K
Message no. 184
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Getting organised
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:54:03 EDT
In a message dated 5/31/1999 3:41:33 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> So can we get a consensus? Either let us know if you'd like to follow
> my idea, or come up with your own that you think is better. I'd like to
> get this initial planning stage out of the way over the next day or
> two.
>
Go for it oh fearful leader, lead us into the fray of chaos and death.... :)

-K

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