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Message no. 1
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 04:15:09 -0700
Greetings:

Sorry for changing the subject line -- hope I didn't break any protocol.

I just want to throw in my two cents regarding the core threads, and the
discussion concerning two vs. three threads. Please keep in mind that I
have not read RA:S, so my opinions are based solely on what I've read on
this list the last few days, which has been great by the way.

I think a good solution might go something like this:

Players:

* Team A: UCAS Spec Ops
* Team B: Renraku Red Sams/Black Ops
* Team C: Shadowrunners

Plotlines:

Teams A & B are both after Cliber. Team C is after whatever gets decided
upon, most likely the rescue of their own friend, or a relative of their
client.

Resolution:

* Team A is well equipped, but will be ill-trained for what they are about
to face. Consider the team of Navy SEALs that got wiped out in Panama
because they were tasked by the "Powers that Be" to take an airfield by
force, a job better suited for Army Rangers. SEALs are the best in the
world at what they do. They got eviscerated not due to their own
incompetence, but because the warplanners failed to consider the narrow
scope of the SEALs' prowess. You don't send Green Berets to rescue a
downed pilot -- that's a job for USAF Pararescue. But if Green Berets is
all you've got in the area ..., you get the picture. Consequently, Team A
will be highly skilled warriors in their field of specialty, but they will
not be expertly trained "extractors." They will also be operating under
several faulty assumptions put forward to them by Military Intelligence
(the ultimate oxymoron). This will prove to be their undoing. Team A will
penetrate, evade Deus, and make contact with Cliber as planned. On the way
out, they encounter the gross intel error, which eventually puts them in
confrontation with Team B.

* Team B is also well trained and will be better equipped (SOTA). They
will have a perceived homefield advantage, but will be hamstrung by their
strictly regimented mindset. Due to a serendipitously favorable tactical
situation, Team B makes easy work of handing Team A their own asses. As
Team A retreats, Team B takes Cliber and goes the other way. Deus becomes
aware of their presence, if he was not already. He throws them curveball
after curveball, using their own tactics against them. It will be
reminiscent of "Die Hard" in that Deus will have predicted their every move
and will have planned accordingly. Team B will put up a hell of a fight,
but they can't think outside the box. Their total inability to improvise
and think laterally gets them wasted in the end. Survivors from both teams
are freed up for side stories as everyone sees fit. Cliber stays put.

* Team C will be less well equipped but better prepared. As seasoned
veterans of the shadows, they will have stealth, discretion, and tactical
flexibility on their side. Team C will have also done 100% of their own
legwork so they will have a much better picture of the situation inside
than Team A. They will also be better equipped (mentally) than Team B to
handle the fluid situation and
counter Deus' adaptive tactics. I like the idea of Team C being
self-motivated (as in Let's Get Harry), but it's more of a true "shadowrun"
if they are contracted by a third party to go in for some other task. Team
C will take losses, but their mission will be a success. They escape with
the skin of their teeth.

I like this approach because, although it involves three teams, it's really
only two threads: the botched Cliber extraction, and the successful
shadowrun. And there are no FASA-shattering events, other than added
political fallout between the UCAS military & Renraku.

Call it a 2.5 thread solution.

I have not yet considered if/when/how to factor in the Resistance. I'll
leave that to folks who've actually read the RA:S book.

I'd love to get in on the writing part of this, but it's been 10 years
since I've had to produce any fiction for public scrutiny -- and I don't
yet have a firm grasp on what my career has in store for the duration of
the summer.

Maybe I'll give it a shot. What's the worst that can happen?

Humbly submitted,

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 2
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:13:21 +1000
> I'd love to get in on the writing part of this, but it's been 10 years
> since I've had to produce any fiction for public scrutiny -- and I don't
> yet have a firm grasp on what my career has in store for the duration of
> the summer.
>
> Maybe I'll give it a shot. What's the worst that can happen?
>
> Humbly submitted,
>
> ~ Snake Eyes

And all that from someone who one post ago sais they would just lurk because
they had nothing to add...

if this is nothing, heck Id like to see something!

Oh, and I like the idea. It looks good and is the further extention of one of
my earlier emails, though I didnt have it down this good by a long shot.

GreyWolf
Message no. 3
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:47:49 -0700 (PDT)
> I'd love to get in on the writing part of this, but
> it's been 10 years
> since I've had to produce any fiction for public
> scrutiny -- and I don't
> yet have a firm grasp on what my career has in store
> for the duration of
> the summer.
>
> Maybe I'll give it a shot. What's the worst that
> can happen?
>
> Humbly submitted,
>
> ~ Snake Eyes

Woah.

Okay, nice presentation. Interesting premise, too.

Only one problem - it's big. REALLY big.

See, that's one of those things that would make a really good novel -
but in the format we're talking, it's too large. Working it all out
would take up most of the book, not leaving much room for anyone else's
stories (unless most people want to write around the core groups and I
don't think they do).

That's the thing you have to remember - the core threads of this should
be IMPORTANT - but they should also be fairly SIMPLE. Too many
complications and it grows to much. At MOST, stories directly involving
the core threads (introductory ones and concluding one/s) should take
up a quarter to a third of the book.

Can you simplify the premise, Snake Eyes?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 4
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:43:49 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] That's the thing you have to remember - the core threads of this should
] be IMPORTANT - but they should also be fairly SIMPLE. Too many
] complications and it grows to much. At MOST, stories directly involving
] the core threads (introductory ones and concluding one/s) should take
] up a quarter to a third of the book.

Simple because, as I gather, the core threads are going to be
described as passing incidents in other stories (barring one or two
stories about the core teams). Therefore, the more complex the core
threads, the more the editors are going to have to do to make sure
there's some sort of coherence to each author's account of the core
teams, and the more of their own story each author is going to have to
devote to the core threads. Whew! That sentence alone needs an
editor...

-Murder of One
Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:15:17 -0700 (PDT)
> ] That's the thing you have to remember - the core threads of this
should be IMPORTANT - but they should also be fairly SIMPLE. Too many
complications and it grows to much. At MOST, stories directly involving
the core threads (introductory ones and concluding one/s) should take
up a quarter to a third of the book.
>
> Simple because, as I gather, the core threads are going to be
described as passing incidents in other stories (barring one or two
stories about the core teams). Therefore, the more complex the core
threads, the more the editors are going to have to do to make sure
there's some sort of coherence to each author's account of the core
teams, and the more of their own story each author is going to have to
devote to the core threads. Whew! That sentence alone needs an
editor...
> -Murder of One

Perhaps it does need an editor, but you captured my meaning exactly.
Thanks, Scott - you put it better than I ever could have. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 6
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:15:33 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
>That's the thing you have to remember - the core threads of this should
>be IMPORTANT - but they should also be fairly SIMPLE. Too many
>complications and it grows to much. At MOST, stories directly involving
>the core threads (introductory ones and concluding one/s) should take
>up a quarter to a third of the book.
>
>Can you simplify the premise, Snake Eyes?

Thanks for the critique. It's been quite a while. I guess maybe I went
overboard explaining the various teams' backgrounds & motivation. If that
causes too much bloat in the core threads, just strip it down. If this
stuff is only meant to be backdrop material then I concur there's really no
reason to waste a lot of expository prose expanding on character
development, individual psychology and group dynamics. If they're just
window dressing for the foreground stories, then their motivation and other
team baggage becomes less and less relevant.

The core idea is real simple. It just boils down to:

1. Team UCAS gets in & bags Cliber
2. Team Renraku intercepts Cliber & are wiped out by Deus
3. Shadowrunnners get in, snare their catch, and get out.

I didn't mean to overcomplicate things, but such is my nature (too much
influence from Tom Clancy and technical manuals, I guess). I was just
interpreting and expanding on what had already been written.

I'm still a little fuzzy on how exactly the peripheral stories tie in to
the core threads anyway, especially if it's to be done chronologically.
Perhaps if somebody could throw me a couple hypotheticals as to what's
going down in the foreground, I'd have a better idea on what (or how) to
pare down -- assuming the basic idea is accepted as generally sound.

I do like the concept that the shadowrunners are able to succeed because
they are unhindered by rank structure, regimented training and crappy
intel. Much the same way that no military team has ever won the
Eco-Challenge race, and probably won't for some time.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 7
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:54:01 -0400
Snake Eyes wrote:

> <SNIP>
> The core idea is real simple. It just boils down to:
>
> 1. Team UCAS gets in & bags Cliber
> 2. Team Renraku intercepts Cliber & are wiped out by Deus
> 3. Shadowrunnners get in, snare their catch, and get out.
>
> I didn't mean to overcomplicate things, but such is my nature (too much
> influence from Tom Clancy and technical manuals, I guess). I was just
> interpreting and expanding on what had already been written.
>
> I'm still a little fuzzy on how exactly the peripheral stories tie in to
> the core threads anyway, especially if it's to be done chronologically.
> Perhaps if somebody could throw me a couple hypotheticals as to what's
> going down in the foreground, I'd have a better idea on what (or how) to
> pare down -- assuming the basic idea is accepted as generally sound.
>

OK, so, for my story, the Resistance cell which is just going around trying to
get people out and free Deus' prisoners, see the Renraku team get pummeled by
Deus' forces. They find out that the Renraku team wants Cliber. So they make a
deal: the Resistance helps Renraku get Cliber, Renraku helps the Resistance
pick up the serum which dissolves leeches, which the Resistance uses to free
people. As they travel through the Arc and into a zombie room, they see the
runners surrounding a lab bench with a person "leeched" to the bench. They make
a deal with the runners: the two groups get the serum together, they split the
serum. They get the serum, the runners leave. Then it all goes to pot. Deus
comes for the Resistance, they battle, many die on both sides, and the
Resistance hides again. Renraku (the three who are still alive) go to get
Cliber.

And that's my story (revised, after being changed by Rand constantly. I still
get to do my type of story, without all the nifty stuff I'd originally been
thinking.)

> I do like the concept that the shadowrunners are able to succeed because
> they are unhindered by rank structure, regimented training and crappy
> intel. Much the same way that no military team has ever won the
> Eco-Challenge race, and probably won't for some time.
>
> ~ Snake Eyes



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 8
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > I'm still a little fuzzy on how exactly the peripheral stories tie
in to the core threads anyway, especially if it's to be done
chronologically. Perhaps if somebody could throw me a couple
hypotheticals as to what's going down in the foreground, I'd have a
better idea on what (or how) to pare down -- assuming the basic idea is
accepted as generally sound.

Okay, Snake Eyes, Strago's example is at one extreme. That's as close
as you can get to total involvment in the core threads without having
the core characters as YOUR central characters. On the other extreme,
you could have a story that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the core
threads, but at some point in time something happens in the story that
effects the core threads. For instance, if the Renraku team is
currently looking for Cliber, your story can include a passing comment
about Cliber being on level 23 and that's good enough. I wouldn't want
TOO many that are that loosely connected, but if you don't want much to
do with the core threads, you don't HAVE to be too involved with them.

> And that's my story (revised, after being changed by Rand constantly.
I still get to do my type of story, without all the nifty stuff I'd
originally been thinking.)

Oh, and Strago? We're really going to have to talk about this some
more. I can see a few problems there...

*Doc' grins evilly...*

Seriously, though, the only reason things are going to be changed is to
keep them in line with the setting and the strictures of the project
(don't change things in the arc too much, stay realistic, don't stuff
the core threads too badly - those are the big ones).
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
> Thanks for the critique. It's been quite a while. I guess maybe I
went overboard explaining the various teams' backgrounds & motivation.
If that causes too much bloat in the core threads, just strip it down.
If this stuff is only meant to be backdrop material then I concur
there's really no reason to waste a lot of expository prose expanding
on character development, individual psychology and group dynamics. If
they're just window dressing for the foreground stories, then their
motivation and other team baggage becomes less and less relevant.

Not entirely backdrop, Snake Eyes. The book will start with the core
threads (I'll do one story and we'll need one or two other volunteers
to introduce the other teams, depending on how many threads we choose
to do) and will finish with the conclusions of these threads. In the
middle will be other stories which, as I said, can have much or little
to do with the core threads, but which will advance the threads. That's
the concept. Motivation, personalities and all that other stuff isn't
JUST window dressing - but we can't go into that TOO much because it
would take over the book and that's not the result we're after.

> The core idea is real simple. It just boils down
> to:
>
> 1. Team UCAS gets in & bags Cliber
> 2. Team Renraku intercepts Cliber & are wiped out
> by Deus
> 3. Shadowrunnners get in, snare their catch, and
> get out.

Personally, I STILL think the 'three thread' idea is a bit more than I
was planning for...but the idea's starting to grow on me. Anyway, we'll
have a vote on the matter and that'll decide what we're doing.

One thing - what's the motivation for Renraku snatching Cliber from the
military? I mean, they both want her out to solve the Deus problem,
right? So why would one team attack the other? It's not like the UCAS
would KEEP Cliber once the problem was solved - well, it's possible,
but unlikely. Personally, I can think of three possibilities ( a)
Renraku is afraid the UCAS will pump Cliber for all sorts of data on
them while they have her, b) similar to the first, Renraku wants to
keep all data on Deus and the AI project to themselves and fear the
UCAS might pump her for it, c) Renraku wants to look like the heroes to
restore their public image, so they'll keep her under wraps until she
comes up with the solution, then make a big show of getting her 'out'
of the arc along with all the other survivors), but what are your
ideas, Snake Eyes?

Hmmm...actually, this could work in well with my bloodbath idea...the
UCAS team gets in, gets Cliber, is jumped by the Renraku team and
pounded nastily, flees, leaving Cliber behind, then is jumped by Deus
and the last few survivors are saved by the Resistance. Oooo...
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 10
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 10:52:02 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Not entirely backdrop, Snake Eyes. The book will start with the core
] threads (I'll do one story and we'll need one or two other volunteers
] to introduce the other teams, depending on how many threads we choose
] to do) and will finish with the conclusions of these threads.

Well, my story (as explained to Doc) concerns the shadowrunning
team's entrance to the Arc, but isn't about them...so is that what
you're talking about, or do you want a story devoted to them right off
the bat?

] Personally, I STILL think the 'three thread' idea is a bit more than I
] was planning for...but the idea's starting to grow on me. Anyway, we'll
] have a vote on the matter and that'll decide what we're doing.

Ack...to quote Bill Cosby, "ONLY TWO!" Consider the difficulties of
telling three stories as background to your own story. Granted, the
three thread idea is a good one for a standard short story, but for
stories that need to be told indirectly, it could be a bit much.

-Murder of One
Message no. 11
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:25:30 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: <srfanfic@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas



> One thing - what's the motivation for Renraku snatching Cliber from the
> military? I mean, they both want her out to solve the Deus problem,
> right? So why would one team attack the other? It's not like the UCAS
> would KEEP Cliber once the problem was solved - well, it's possible,
> but unlikely. Personally, I can think of three possibilities ( a)
> Renraku is afraid the UCAS will pump Cliber for all sorts of data on
> them while they have her, b) similar to the first, Renraku wants to
> keep all data on Deus and the AI project to themselves and fear the
> UCAS might pump her for it, c) Renraku wants to look like the heroes to
> restore their public image, so they'll keep her under wraps until she
> comes up with the solution, then make a big show of getting her 'out'
> of the arc along with all the other survivors), but what are your
> ideas, Snake Eyes?
>

Hi,
Just my two cents. I can quickly see two reasons, #1 Renraku is trying
to keep what's REALLY going on a secret from the populace. The military has
no problems escorting Cliber through the media and explaining that they just
pulled out a computer scientist. Even if they don't say why, someone
(probably another corp) will put two and two together. Also, and more
importantly, Japan in Shadowrun is shown as returning to a quasi fuedal
Japanese society. Renraku would loose severe face if they didn't do
EVERYTHING to clean up their own messes, many other corps are Japanese, and
the lost face means lost contracts from the other Big Boys, public opinion
ignored.

Mockingbird
Message no. 12
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:07:18 -0700
Rand Ratinc wrote:

>> One thing - what's the motivation for Renraku snatching Cliber from the
>> military? I mean, they both want her out to solve the Deus problem,
>> right? So why would one team attack the other? It's not like the UCAS
>> would KEEP Cliber once the problem was solved - well, it's possible,
>> but unlikely. Personally, I can think of three possibilities ( a)
>> Renraku is afraid the UCAS will pump Cliber for all sorts of data on
>> them while they have her, b) similar to the first, Renraku wants to
>> keep all data on Deus and the AI project to themselves and fear the
>> UCAS might pump her for it, c) Renraku wants to look like the heroes to
>> restore their public image, so they'll keep her under wraps until she
>> comes up with the solution, then make a big show of getting her 'out'
>> of the arc along with all the other survivors), but what are your
>> ideas, Snake Eyes?

Mockingbird wrote:

> Just my two cents. I can quickly see two reasons, #1 Renraku is trying
>to keep what's REALLY going on a secret from the populace. The military has
>no problems escorting Cliber through the media and explaining that they just
>pulled out a computer scientist. Even if they don't say why, someone
>(probably another corp) will put two and two together. Also, and more
>importantly, Japan in Shadowrun is shown as returning to a quasi fuedal
>Japanese society. Renraku would loose severe face if they didn't do
>EVERYTHING to clean up their own messes, many other corps are Japanese, and
>the lost face means lost contracts from the other Big Boys, public opinion
>ignored.

My Idea:

Inititially, I'd go with Rand's idea # B from above along with
Mockingbird's motivation. Renraku wants desperately to keep the Deus/AI
info under wraps until they've got a solution. They sure as hell don't
want the UCAS military getting hold of it. Cliber (I think) is a Renraku
asset, and must be recovered at all costs. Of course the company also has
a great interest in saving face by mopping up their own mess. If
eventually they get to make a big media production of showing off Cliber &
the solution, that is a bonus prize, but secondary to the motivation listed
above.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 13
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Well, my story (as explained to Doc) concerns the shadowrunning
team's entrance to the Arc, but isn't about them...so is that what
you're talking about, or do you want a story devoted to them right off
the bat?

Yep, that's what I'm talking about.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 14
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:22:17 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Yep, that's what I'm talking about.

Oh good. I still have a purpose :) BTW, should I post my idea up
here? Or do we want to wait 'til we've nailed down the core thread
particulars?

-Murder of One
Message no. 15
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:04:26 -0400
Scott Wheelock wrote:

> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
> ] Yep, that's what I'm talking about.
>
> Oh good. I still have a purpose :) BTW, should I post my idea up
> here? Or do we want to wait 'til we've nailed down the core thread
> particulars?
>
> -Murder of One

I'd say wait until we've nailed down the particulars.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the
chlorine.

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Message no. 16
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 22:10:55 -0700 (PDT)
> I'd say wait until we've nailed down the particulars.
> --Strago

*Doc' noddles...*

Exactly. Once we've decided the basic format, I'll put up a post asking
for you guys to start submitting your ideas. That's when you want to
put yours up, Scott.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 17
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 04:15:09 -0700
Greetings:

Sorry for changing the subject line -- hope I didn't break any protocol.

I just want to throw in my two cents regarding the core threads, and the
discussion concerning two vs. three threads. Please keep in mind that I
have not read RA:S, so my opinions are based solely on what I've read on
this list the last few days, which has been great by the way.

I think a good solution might go something like this:

Players:

* Team A: UCAS Spec Ops
* Team B: Renraku Red Sams/Black Ops
* Team C: Shadowrunners

Plotlines:

Teams A & B are both after Cliber. Team C is after whatever gets decided
upon, most likely the rescue of their own friend, or a relative of their
client.

Resolution:

* Team A is well equipped, but will be ill-trained for what they are about
to face. Consider the team of Navy SEALs that got wiped out in Panama
because they were tasked by the "Powers that Be" to take an airfield by
force, a job better suited for Army Rangers. SEALs are the best in the
world at what they do. They got eviscerated not due to their own
incompetence, but because the warplanners failed to consider the narrow
scope of the SEALs' prowess. You don't send Green Berets to rescue a
downed pilot -- that's a job for USAF Pararescue. But if Green Berets is
all you've got in the area ..., you get the picture. Consequently, Team A
will be highly skilled warriors in their field of specialty, but they will
not be expertly trained "extractors." They will also be operating under
several faulty assumptions put forward to them by Military Intelligence
(the ultimate oxymoron). This will prove to be their undoing. Team A will
penetrate, evade Deus, and make contact with Cliber as planned. On the way
out, they encounter the gross intel error, which eventually puts them in
confrontation with Team B.

* Team B is also well trained and will be better equipped (SOTA). They
will have a perceived homefield advantage, but will be hamstrung by their
strictly regimented mindset. Due to a serendipitously favorable tactical
situation, Team B makes easy work of handing Team A their own asses. As
Team A retreats, Team B takes Cliber and goes the other way. Deus becomes
aware of their presence, if he was not already. He throws them curveball
after curveball, using their own tactics against them. It will be
reminiscent of "Die Hard" in that Deus will have predicted their every move
and will have planned accordingly. Team B will put up a hell of a fight,
but they can't think outside the box. Their total inability to improvise
and think laterally gets them wasted in the end. Survivors from both teams
are freed up for side stories as everyone sees fit. Cliber stays put.

* Team C will be less well equipped but better prepared. As seasoned
veterans of the shadows, they will have stealth, discretion, and tactical
flexibility on their side. Team C will have also done 100% of their own
legwork so they will have a much better picture of the situation inside
than Team A. They will also be better equipped (mentally) than Team B to
handle the fluid situation and
counter Deus' adaptive tactics. I like the idea of Team C being
self-motivated (as in Let's Get Harry), but it's more of a true "shadowrun"
if they are contracted by a third party to go in for some other task. Team
C will take losses, but their mission will be a success. They escape with
the skin of their teeth.

I like this approach because, although it involves three teams, it's really
only two threads: the botched Cliber extraction, and the successful
shadowrun. And there are no FASA-shattering events, other than added
political fallout between the UCAS military & Renraku.

Call it a 2.5 thread solution.

I have not yet considered if/when/how to factor in the Resistance. I'll
leave that to folks who've actually read the RA:S book.

I'd love to get in on the writing part of this, but it's been 10 years
since I've had to produce any fiction for public scrutiny -- and I don't
yet have a firm grasp on what my career has in store for the duration of
the summer.

Maybe I'll give it a shot. What's the worst that can happen?

Humbly submitted,

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 18
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:13:21 +1000
> I'd love to get in on the writing part of this, but it's been 10 years
> since I've had to produce any fiction for public scrutiny -- and I don't
> yet have a firm grasp on what my career has in store for the duration of
> the summer.
>
> Maybe I'll give it a shot. What's the worst that can happen?
>
> Humbly submitted,
>
> ~ Snake Eyes

And all that from someone who one post ago sais they would just lurk because
they had nothing to add...

if this is nothing, heck Id like to see something!

Oh, and I like the idea. It looks good and is the further extention of one of
my earlier emails, though I didnt have it down this good by a long shot.

GreyWolf
Message no. 19
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:47:49 -0700 (PDT)
> I'd love to get in on the writing part of this, but
> it's been 10 years
> since I've had to produce any fiction for public
> scrutiny -- and I don't
> yet have a firm grasp on what my career has in store
> for the duration of
> the summer.
>
> Maybe I'll give it a shot. What's the worst that
> can happen?
>
> Humbly submitted,
>
> ~ Snake Eyes

Woah.

Okay, nice presentation. Interesting premise, too.

Only one problem - it's big. REALLY big.

See, that's one of those things that would make a really good novel -
but in the format we're talking, it's too large. Working it all out
would take up most of the book, not leaving much room for anyone else's
stories (unless most people want to write around the core groups and I
don't think they do).

That's the thing you have to remember - the core threads of this should
be IMPORTANT - but they should also be fairly SIMPLE. Too many
complications and it grows to much. At MOST, stories directly involving
the core threads (introductory ones and concluding one/s) should take
up a quarter to a third of the book.

Can you simplify the premise, Snake Eyes?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 20
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:43:49 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] That's the thing you have to remember - the core threads of this should
] be IMPORTANT - but they should also be fairly SIMPLE. Too many
] complications and it grows to much. At MOST, stories directly involving
] the core threads (introductory ones and concluding one/s) should take
] up a quarter to a third of the book.

Simple because, as I gather, the core threads are going to be
described as passing incidents in other stories (barring one or two
stories about the core teams). Therefore, the more complex the core
threads, the more the editors are going to have to do to make sure
there's some sort of coherence to each author's account of the core
teams, and the more of their own story each author is going to have to
devote to the core threads. Whew! That sentence alone needs an
editor...

-Murder of One
Message no. 21
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:15:17 -0700 (PDT)
> ] That's the thing you have to remember - the core threads of this
should be IMPORTANT - but they should also be fairly SIMPLE. Too many
complications and it grows to much. At MOST, stories directly involving
the core threads (introductory ones and concluding one/s) should take
up a quarter to a third of the book.
>
> Simple because, as I gather, the core threads are going to be
described as passing incidents in other stories (barring one or two
stories about the core teams). Therefore, the more complex the core
threads, the more the editors are going to have to do to make sure
there's some sort of coherence to each author's account of the core
teams, and the more of their own story each author is going to have to
devote to the core threads. Whew! That sentence alone needs an
editor...
> -Murder of One

Perhaps it does need an editor, but you captured my meaning exactly.
Thanks, Scott - you put it better than I ever could have. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 22
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:15:33 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
>That's the thing you have to remember - the core threads of this should
>be IMPORTANT - but they should also be fairly SIMPLE. Too many
>complications and it grows to much. At MOST, stories directly involving
>the core threads (introductory ones and concluding one/s) should take
>up a quarter to a third of the book.
>
>Can you simplify the premise, Snake Eyes?

Thanks for the critique. It's been quite a while. I guess maybe I went
overboard explaining the various teams' backgrounds & motivation. If that
causes too much bloat in the core threads, just strip it down. If this
stuff is only meant to be backdrop material then I concur there's really no
reason to waste a lot of expository prose expanding on character
development, individual psychology and group dynamics. If they're just
window dressing for the foreground stories, then their motivation and other
team baggage becomes less and less relevant.

The core idea is real simple. It just boils down to:

1. Team UCAS gets in & bags Cliber
2. Team Renraku intercepts Cliber & are wiped out by Deus
3. Shadowrunnners get in, snare their catch, and get out.

I didn't mean to overcomplicate things, but such is my nature (too much
influence from Tom Clancy and technical manuals, I guess). I was just
interpreting and expanding on what had already been written.

I'm still a little fuzzy on how exactly the peripheral stories tie in to
the core threads anyway, especially if it's to be done chronologically.
Perhaps if somebody could throw me a couple hypotheticals as to what's
going down in the foreground, I'd have a better idea on what (or how) to
pare down -- assuming the basic idea is accepted as generally sound.

I do like the concept that the shadowrunners are able to succeed because
they are unhindered by rank structure, regimented training and crappy
intel. Much the same way that no military team has ever won the
Eco-Challenge race, and probably won't for some time.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 23
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:54:01 -0400
Snake Eyes wrote:

> <SNIP>
> The core idea is real simple. It just boils down to:
>
> 1. Team UCAS gets in & bags Cliber
> 2. Team Renraku intercepts Cliber & are wiped out by Deus
> 3. Shadowrunnners get in, snare their catch, and get out.
>
> I didn't mean to overcomplicate things, but such is my nature (too much
> influence from Tom Clancy and technical manuals, I guess). I was just
> interpreting and expanding on what had already been written.
>
> I'm still a little fuzzy on how exactly the peripheral stories tie in to
> the core threads anyway, especially if it's to be done chronologically.
> Perhaps if somebody could throw me a couple hypotheticals as to what's
> going down in the foreground, I'd have a better idea on what (or how) to
> pare down -- assuming the basic idea is accepted as generally sound.
>

OK, so, for my story, the Resistance cell which is just going around trying to
get people out and free Deus' prisoners, see the Renraku team get pummeled by
Deus' forces. They find out that the Renraku team wants Cliber. So they make a
deal: the Resistance helps Renraku get Cliber, Renraku helps the Resistance
pick up the serum which dissolves leeches, which the Resistance uses to free
people. As they travel through the Arc and into a zombie room, they see the
runners surrounding a lab bench with a person "leeched" to the bench. They make
a deal with the runners: the two groups get the serum together, they split the
serum. They get the serum, the runners leave. Then it all goes to pot. Deus
comes for the Resistance, they battle, many die on both sides, and the
Resistance hides again. Renraku (the three who are still alive) go to get
Cliber.

And that's my story (revised, after being changed by Rand constantly. I still
get to do my type of story, without all the nifty stuff I'd originally been
thinking.)

> I do like the concept that the shadowrunners are able to succeed because
> they are unhindered by rank structure, regimented training and crappy
> intel. Much the same way that no military team has ever won the
> Eco-Challenge race, and probably won't for some time.
>
> ~ Snake Eyes



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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Message no. 24
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > I'm still a little fuzzy on how exactly the peripheral stories tie
in to the core threads anyway, especially if it's to be done
chronologically. Perhaps if somebody could throw me a couple
hypotheticals as to what's going down in the foreground, I'd have a
better idea on what (or how) to pare down -- assuming the basic idea is
accepted as generally sound.

Okay, Snake Eyes, Strago's example is at one extreme. That's as close
as you can get to total involvment in the core threads without having
the core characters as YOUR central characters. On the other extreme,
you could have a story that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the core
threads, but at some point in time something happens in the story that
effects the core threads. For instance, if the Renraku team is
currently looking for Cliber, your story can include a passing comment
about Cliber being on level 23 and that's good enough. I wouldn't want
TOO many that are that loosely connected, but if you don't want much to
do with the core threads, you don't HAVE to be too involved with them.

> And that's my story (revised, after being changed by Rand constantly.
I still get to do my type of story, without all the nifty stuff I'd
originally been thinking.)

Oh, and Strago? We're really going to have to talk about this some
more. I can see a few problems there...

*Doc' grins evilly...*

Seriously, though, the only reason things are going to be changed is to
keep them in line with the setting and the strictures of the project
(don't change things in the arc too much, stay realistic, don't stuff
the core threads too badly - those are the big ones).
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 25
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
> Thanks for the critique. It's been quite a while. I guess maybe I
went overboard explaining the various teams' backgrounds & motivation.
If that causes too much bloat in the core threads, just strip it down.
If this stuff is only meant to be backdrop material then I concur
there's really no reason to waste a lot of expository prose expanding
on character development, individual psychology and group dynamics. If
they're just window dressing for the foreground stories, then their
motivation and other team baggage becomes less and less relevant.

Not entirely backdrop, Snake Eyes. The book will start with the core
threads (I'll do one story and we'll need one or two other volunteers
to introduce the other teams, depending on how many threads we choose
to do) and will finish with the conclusions of these threads. In the
middle will be other stories which, as I said, can have much or little
to do with the core threads, but which will advance the threads. That's
the concept. Motivation, personalities and all that other stuff isn't
JUST window dressing - but we can't go into that TOO much because it
would take over the book and that's not the result we're after.

> The core idea is real simple. It just boils down
> to:
>
> 1. Team UCAS gets in & bags Cliber
> 2. Team Renraku intercepts Cliber & are wiped out
> by Deus
> 3. Shadowrunnners get in, snare their catch, and
> get out.

Personally, I STILL think the 'three thread' idea is a bit more than I
was planning for...but the idea's starting to grow on me. Anyway, we'll
have a vote on the matter and that'll decide what we're doing.

One thing - what's the motivation for Renraku snatching Cliber from the
military? I mean, they both want her out to solve the Deus problem,
right? So why would one team attack the other? It's not like the UCAS
would KEEP Cliber once the problem was solved - well, it's possible,
but unlikely. Personally, I can think of three possibilities ( a)
Renraku is afraid the UCAS will pump Cliber for all sorts of data on
them while they have her, b) similar to the first, Renraku wants to
keep all data on Deus and the AI project to themselves and fear the
UCAS might pump her for it, c) Renraku wants to look like the heroes to
restore their public image, so they'll keep her under wraps until she
comes up with the solution, then make a big show of getting her 'out'
of the arc along with all the other survivors), but what are your
ideas, Snake Eyes?

Hmmm...actually, this could work in well with my bloodbath idea...the
UCAS team gets in, gets Cliber, is jumped by the Renraku team and
pounded nastily, flees, leaving Cliber behind, then is jumped by Deus
and the last few survivors are saved by the Resistance. Oooo...
==Doc'
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Message no. 26
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 10:52:02 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Not entirely backdrop, Snake Eyes. The book will start with the core
] threads (I'll do one story and we'll need one or two other volunteers
] to introduce the other teams, depending on how many threads we choose
] to do) and will finish with the conclusions of these threads.

Well, my story (as explained to Doc) concerns the shadowrunning
team's entrance to the Arc, but isn't about them...so is that what
you're talking about, or do you want a story devoted to them right off
the bat?

] Personally, I STILL think the 'three thread' idea is a bit more than I
] was planning for...but the idea's starting to grow on me. Anyway, we'll
] have a vote on the matter and that'll decide what we're doing.

Ack...to quote Bill Cosby, "ONLY TWO!" Consider the difficulties of
telling three stories as background to your own story. Granted, the
three thread idea is a good one for a standard short story, but for
stories that need to be told indirectly, it could be a bit much.

-Murder of One
Message no. 27
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:25:30 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: <srfanfic@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas



> One thing - what's the motivation for Renraku snatching Cliber from the
> military? I mean, they both want her out to solve the Deus problem,
> right? So why would one team attack the other? It's not like the UCAS
> would KEEP Cliber once the problem was solved - well, it's possible,
> but unlikely. Personally, I can think of three possibilities ( a)
> Renraku is afraid the UCAS will pump Cliber for all sorts of data on
> them while they have her, b) similar to the first, Renraku wants to
> keep all data on Deus and the AI project to themselves and fear the
> UCAS might pump her for it, c) Renraku wants to look like the heroes to
> restore their public image, so they'll keep her under wraps until she
> comes up with the solution, then make a big show of getting her 'out'
> of the arc along with all the other survivors), but what are your
> ideas, Snake Eyes?
>

Hi,
Just my two cents. I can quickly see two reasons, #1 Renraku is trying
to keep what's REALLY going on a secret from the populace. The military has
no problems escorting Cliber through the media and explaining that they just
pulled out a computer scientist. Even if they don't say why, someone
(probably another corp) will put two and two together. Also, and more
importantly, Japan in Shadowrun is shown as returning to a quasi fuedal
Japanese society. Renraku would loose severe face if they didn't do
EVERYTHING to clean up their own messes, many other corps are Japanese, and
the lost face means lost contracts from the other Big Boys, public opinion
ignored.

Mockingbird
Message no. 28
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:07:18 -0700
Rand Ratinc wrote:

>> One thing - what's the motivation for Renraku snatching Cliber from the
>> military? I mean, they both want her out to solve the Deus problem,
>> right? So why would one team attack the other? It's not like the UCAS
>> would KEEP Cliber once the problem was solved - well, it's possible,
>> but unlikely. Personally, I can think of three possibilities ( a)
>> Renraku is afraid the UCAS will pump Cliber for all sorts of data on
>> them while they have her, b) similar to the first, Renraku wants to
>> keep all data on Deus and the AI project to themselves and fear the
>> UCAS might pump her for it, c) Renraku wants to look like the heroes to
>> restore their public image, so they'll keep her under wraps until she
>> comes up with the solution, then make a big show of getting her 'out'
>> of the arc along with all the other survivors), but what are your
>> ideas, Snake Eyes?

Mockingbird wrote:

> Just my two cents. I can quickly see two reasons, #1 Renraku is trying
>to keep what's REALLY going on a secret from the populace. The military has
>no problems escorting Cliber through the media and explaining that they just
>pulled out a computer scientist. Even if they don't say why, someone
>(probably another corp) will put two and two together. Also, and more
>importantly, Japan in Shadowrun is shown as returning to a quasi fuedal
>Japanese society. Renraku would loose severe face if they didn't do
>EVERYTHING to clean up their own messes, many other corps are Japanese, and
>the lost face means lost contracts from the other Big Boys, public opinion
>ignored.

My Idea:

Inititially, I'd go with Rand's idea # B from above along with
Mockingbird's motivation. Renraku wants desperately to keep the Deus/AI
info under wraps until they've got a solution. They sure as hell don't
want the UCAS military getting hold of it. Cliber (I think) is a Renraku
asset, and must be recovered at all costs. Of course the company also has
a great interest in saving face by mopping up their own mess. If
eventually they get to make a big media production of showing off Cliber &
the solution, that is a bonus prize, but secondary to the motivation listed
above.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 29
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Well, my story (as explained to Doc) concerns the shadowrunning
team's entrance to the Arc, but isn't about them...so is that what
you're talking about, or do you want a story devoted to them right off
the bat?

Yep, that's what I'm talking about.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 30
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:22:17 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Yep, that's what I'm talking about.

Oh good. I still have a purpose :) BTW, should I post my idea up
here? Or do we want to wait 'til we've nailed down the core thread
particulars?

-Murder of One
Message no. 31
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:04:26 -0400
Scott Wheelock wrote:

> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
> ] Yep, that's what I'm talking about.
>
> Oh good. I still have a purpose :) BTW, should I post my idea up
> here? Or do we want to wait 'til we've nailed down the core thread
> particulars?
>
> -Murder of One

I'd say wait until we've nailed down the particulars.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the
chlorine.

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Message no. 32
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [RA:S Project] Thread Ideas
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 22:10:55 -0700 (PDT)
> I'd say wait until we've nailed down the particulars.
> --Strago

*Doc' noddles...*

Exactly. Once we've decided the basic format, I'll put up a post asking
for you guys to start submitting your ideas. That's when you want to
put yours up, Scott.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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