Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Robert Fanning)
Subject: 10 Rigger 3 gripes.
Date: Sun Jul 8 11:20:01 2001
1) Number of rounds in weapon mounts.....

It states that there is enough for twice the load of the weapon......

Now, I wanted to put a micro-popup turret with a sniper rifle, but the
standard sniper rifle has 6 shots.

The other sniper rifle has 8 rounds.

If I go for a Barret, which has bigger rounds, it has 14 (or is it 12).

Or, if I pick an assault rifle, with a larger clip (say 35), it would have
similar sized bullets, but be able to carry 70 rounds instead of 12.

So, I go to the cannon companion, I can increase the clip to 50 rounds? I
get 2x500 rounds of storage?

If I was to allocate 0.2 CF of ammunition, for 2000 rounds, that would weigh
100 kilograms. The small micro-blimp drone I am putting in it can only
carry 28kg, but the time I take out the turret which weighs 10 kg, plus the
gun and ammo weight, I don't have much left. [I use the image enhancement
more for spying, rather than sensors - I don't like characters doing wet
work]

Couldn't they just have a limit of 0.2 CF, 0.1 CF or even 0.02 CF capacity
in mounts?

2) If says that adding a weapon to a vehicle, it can only accept accessories
that are part of the weapon, except smartguns, which much be internal.

Now, does that mean all accessories must be internal or integral with the
gun?

I can accept things like bipods and stuff like shock pads couldn't be added
to the rifle, but scopes that come with the weapon when you buy it shouldn't
be different from imaging systems and scopes that you add on.....

So, I intrepret that to mean that any accessories like bipods, shock pads,
gyromounts are "not part of the gun", but you cannot add the external
smartgun unit, only the internal one (after all - game balance, it is
cheaper to add on and mounted weapons have no concealability penalty for
doing so - it is the mount that matters).

However, imaging scopes, ultrasound sights, etc are ok.

Now, also, if I was trying to mount an underbarrel grenade launcher - if I
pick an AK-98 or other weapon with integral grenade launcher, that would be
ok; but is an added grenade launcher or flamethrower be alright or not?

What counts as "part of the weapon" - anything integral, or are also barrel,
top and bottom accessories part of the weapon; but not mounts (after all, it
uses a vehicle mount, which gets in the way).

3) I couldn't find a magazine selector - if I want to put a variety of
different ammos in the different magazines, say APDS, EX, Fletchette and
incendary; there doesn't seem to be any mechanism? So should I just
allocate 0.2 CF to each? 10,000 assault rifle rounds is an awful lot -
500kg of ammo. It would take me a long time to burn through that much,
although, some players I have known.......

4) In the old edition, you had to double the cost of a gun to mount a hand
held weapon on a vehicle, but I looked and looked, but could find only a
reference to a gun conversion kit, with no price (I assume same as a
mechanics or weaponsmith kit), but you seem to only buy that once, in
addition to your vehicle, electronic, computer and weaponsmith kits)

5) Engines - I wished to swap the EC engine in the glider they have, so that
it could run on solar cells and charge the battery - you can get them for
drone mini-blimps, which is ok I guess. Could I rig an AC rectifier to give
the EC engine power from the solar cells and just let it drift along, or to
suppliment the power requirements? Surely a normal battery powered engine
is enough for an ultralight glider?

If anything, the AC emissions from an EC emmisions would be showing up very
obviously on the sensors, whereas DC wouldn't.

Also, methane engines are efficient, but I don't see any difference between
a methane burning engine, an LP gas burning engine and one burning Hydrogren
(instead of the EC engine).

What I want is a little bit of reworking of the engine types, so they can
use a wider variety of fuels (bio-deisel is good for a wide source of fuels,
alcohol/gasoline for internal combustion, a dual fuel engine for trucks
perhaps?).

EC engines should be able to use solar panels? Whoever wrote the rules for
EC engines had a poor grasp of physics - hydrogen cells do not produce AC
power, they are like conventional batteries using a chemical reaction,
wheras a internal combustion engine burning hydrogen would produce AC with a
generator as it uses coils and transformers. Transformers do not work on DC
power.

I suggest engines be broken into these categories - Liquid Internal
Combustion (sub category diesel, petrochem or dual-fuel), Gas Internal
Combustion, Gas Turbines (mainly hydrofoils), Jets and Turbo Jets,
Electrical (with solar cell, hydrogen cell, battery and hybrid generators
providing the power or extra, supplimental power).

Surely the EC engine is the hybrid version of the petrochem internal
combustion engine? Why should there be a difference?

Also, given the lack of fuel in rural areas, surely there could be steam or
thermoelectric generators used to power electric vehicles? Obviously having
a furnace in your vehicle is going to light you up on the infared, but your
electronic footprint is going to be unaffected.

Perhaps there could be powder burning internal combustion engines - fed on
the shredded husks of wheat crops? Grain Silos often blow up from the
smallest of sparks. Take some sifted castor sugar and throw it at a candle
(safely outdoors, at a distance) if you don't believe me.

The other thing that gets me is that internal combustion engines still need
a battery for the starter motor and lights, which is why having a hybrid
engine is such an advantage - your starter motor becomes your drive motor,
which returns power during breaking.

Why couldn't solar panels be placed on a rigger vehicle, so it can sit
ticking away in standby mode, especially if it is an RV with a satelitte
dish and a decker (or rigger with a small rating 4 cyberdeck) sitting in the
back chewing power up?

6) Maintenance cost of vehicles - players should be given a mothball
option - putting the car up on blocks, coating the parts in vaseline and
other things that would not induce and wear and tear. Getting the car back
on the road would take some work - pumping up and rebalancing the tires,
recharging the battery, relubricating the moving parts for first ignition.
Or should as a player, I disassemble a backup or rarely used vehicle for
parts - so I have a collection of parts, not a vehicle, which doesn't need
maintenance costs?

7) We need a pizza delivery drone - special equipment: credstick reader and
food dispenser arm, special storage: 1 x 6 pack sized (or 2 softdrink
bottles) sized cold area, 1 heater area - the waste heat from the
refrigerator coils could keep the hot section going. It should be VTOL, but
small enough to pass through a standard doorway. Perhaps the dispenser arm
could be used to press elevator buttons and it has a small set of wheels
that run off the rotor drive shaft. Obviously, such drones would be needed
to travel at high speeds to get there in less than half an hour - a rating 2
autopilot, with some sort of personality module and a speech synthesizer
would be a minimum, a rating 3 pilot might make it too expensive. This
would stop shadowrunners ordering a pizza, killing the driver for a free
meal, then stealing their car for a run (I mean, you turn up at a guard
station with pizzas - who promise to deliver them for you as they are
already paid through matrix credstick transactions (dose it with sleeping
chemicals) - chances are the sec guards are going to help themselves when
the "pizza delivery" guy is gone.

Given the habit of those in more run down areas to mob a machine like that,
it should be armed for the areas of slums where the downtrodden wage slaves
commute from. Aircraft rockets are a bit extreme, but a heavy machine gun
should be sufficient, with a magazine selector for gel rounds.

Why the games designers would not include a pizza delivery drone is beyond
me. Even a wheeled drone can use an elevator shaft, but getting over the
traffic jams in the day and past cycle gangs at night makes a flying drone
the obvious choice.

Besides, I think that even cycle gangers get the munchies at 3 AM and would
want to order a pizza (more than once anyway), so this is perfect for the
slum areas of town, appreciating the service (though sending it in with a
launch missile system to DMZ zones would be advised).

How about a ground based Auto-Vending machine even? Just like the hotdog
carts, but with tracks or multi-axel balloon tires.

8) Offroad vehicle penalty for on road? Why should a person driving on a
flattened road have a harder time than off the road? I can accept the
handling penalty at higher speeds, but not if you are Sunday driving along
the highway. Hmm, looks like I drive on the gravel or grass road shoulder
on the highway from now on.

9) The price of fly by wire systems - 1.25 x the cost of the whole vehicle
for EACH LEVEL - does that include other accessories unrelated to the engine
systems.

10) They took out most of the cool illustrations that I have in the Rigger
Black Book. I can understand space limitations, but surely we should be
able to log on and find out what vehicles look like on an online forum (or a
CD is cheap to make and sell with the book).
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 10 Rigger 3 gripes.
Date: Sun Jul 8 15:45:05 2001
Robert Fanning writes:

> 1) Number of rounds in weapon mounts.....
>
> Couldn't they just have a limit of 0.2 CF, 0.1 CF or even 0.02 CF capacity
> in mounts?

That would have been more sensible, yeah. You might want to send this to Rob
and Adam to be considered for the errata for R3. Along with the rest of your
observations :-).

> 2) If says that adding a weapon to a vehicle, it can only accept accessories
> that are part of the weapon, except smartguns, which much be internal.
>
> Now, does that mean all accessories must be internal or integral with the
> gun?

I got the impression that it referred to the fact that you couldn't add a
gas vent or some-such-thing to a gun after it was converted for vehicular
use. But if you put the gas vent on first, then converted the weapon, then
you had the gas venting available.

> I can accept things like bipods and stuff like shock pads couldn't be added
> to the rifle, but scopes that come with the weapon when you buy it shouldn't
> be different from imaging systems and scopes that you add on.....

Well, there's no point in having a Mag 3 Thermo Scope or an Ultrasound Scope
on a converted weapon. It's going to be rigger controlled, not used by
someone. OTOH, if it's a pintle or ring mount, then the weapon doesn't need
to be converted at all, and such accessories would be useful.

> Now, also, if I was trying to mount an underbarrel grenade launcher - if I
> pick an AK-98 or other weapon with integral grenade launcher, that would be
> ok; but is an added grenade launcher or flamethrower be alright or not?

I would guess so, as long as it was added before conversion.

The rules could definitely do with some clarification, couldn't they?

> 3) I couldn't find a magazine selector - if I want to put a variety of
> different ammos in the different magazines, say APDS, EX, Fletchette and
> incendary; there doesn't seem to be any mechanism? So should I just
> allocate 0.2 CF to each? 10,000 assault rifle rounds is an awful lot -
> 500kg of ammo. It would take me a long time to burn through that much,
> although, some players I have known.......

AFAIK, there is no such thing. You've got to load in whatever belt you want,
and then stop, get out, and change the belt if you want different ammo. A
little bit of an oversight. Perhaps the multiple clip thingy from CC could
be used to allow multiple ammo feeds?

> 4) In the old edition, you had to double the cost of a gun to mount a hand
> held weapon on a vehicle, but I looked and looked, but could find only a
> reference to a gun conversion kit, with no price (I assume same as a
> mechanics or weaponsmith kit), but you seem to only buy that once, in
> addition to your vehicle, electronic, computer and weaponsmith kits)

Again, AFAIK, there's no cost now associated. Only the time and equipment
needed.

> 5) Engines - I wished to swap the EC engine in the glider they have, so that
> it could run on solar cells and charge the battery - you can get them for
> drone mini-blimps, which is ok I guess. Could I rig an AC rectifier to give
> the EC engine power from the solar cells and just let it drift along, or to
> suppliment the power requirements? Surely a normal battery powered engine
> is enough for an ultralight glider?
>
> <Snip>

Whooah! You might want to write up a complete set of rules for this and
submit them. You sound like you know what you're talking about. If nothing
else, I'd like to see your version of these things, as I do have to say that
I _seriously_ wonder if R3 was ever proof read for game mechanics, let alone
actually playtested!

> 6) Maintenance cost of vehicles - players should be given a mothball
> option - putting the car up on blocks, coating the parts in vaseline and
> other things that would not induce and wear and tear. Getting the car back
> on the road would take some work - pumping up and rebalancing the tires,
> recharging the battery, relubricating the moving parts for first ignition.
> Or should as a player, I disassemble a backup or rarely used vehicle for
> parts - so I have a collection of parts, not a vehicle, which doesn't need
> maintenance costs?

Sounds fair either way to me.

> 7) We need a pizza delivery drone

I've always had litle wheeled drones with heat boxes on the back, enough
armour to shrug off small arms fire, and a credstick reader in the front.
Anything with a weapon would be getting far to expensive for such an
application (missiles are over 1000Y each!, the average profit on a pizza is
only a couple of bucks!).

> 8) Offroad vehicle penalty for on road? Why should a person driving on a
> flattened road have a harder time than off the road? I can accept the
> handling penalty at higher speeds, but not if you are Sunday driving along
> the highway. Hmm, looks like I drive on the gravel or grass road shoulder
> on the highway from now on.

I wondered about this myself. What you say makes sense.

> 9) The price of fly by wire systems - 1.25 x the cost of the whole vehicle
> for EACH LEVEL - does that include other accessories unrelated to the engine
> systems.

Check out the cost of Improved Suspension, too! I think that these items
have a 1.xx, rather than a 0.xx which is what it should be.

> 10) They took out most of the cool illustrations that I have in the Rigger
> Black Book. I can understand space limitations, but surely we should be
> able to log on and find out what vehicles look like on an online forum (or a
> CD is cheap to make and sell with the book).

They did this with the guns 'n' cyber too :-(.

I wonder if they'd let us scan them all in and make a compilation from SS,
FoF, RBB, NAGRL, etc. etc. of gear pics for SR?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a25 C++ US++>+++ P+ L+>++ E- W+ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@ M--
V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Iridios)
Subject: 10 Rigger 3 gripes.
Date: Sun Jul 8 19:00:01 2001
Damion Milliken wrote:

> > 2) If says that adding a weapon to a vehicle, it can only accept accessories
> > that are part of the weapon, except smartguns, which much be internal.
> >
> > Now, does that mean all accessories must be internal or integral with the
> > gun?
>
> I got the impression that it referred to the fact that you couldn't add a
> gas vent or some-such-thing to a gun after it was converted for vehicular
> use. But if you put the gas vent on first, then converted the weapon, then
> you had the gas venting available.

Funny. I was under the impression that the only accessories allowed on a
converted weapon were those that came built in from the manufacturer, with
the exception of an internal smargun link which, if I read right, is needed
for the smartgun integration kit to work.

> > 10) They took out most of the cool illustrations that I have in the Rigger
> > Black Book. I can understand space limitations, but surely we should be
> > able to log on and find out what vehicles look like on an online forum (or a
> > CD is cheap to make and sell with the book).
>
> They did this with the guns 'n' cyber too :-(.

If I remember right, one of the reasons that factored into this decision is
the debate over rights to artwork. Most of the artwork was 'licsenced' for
use in RBB. Some of it was then recycled into R2, but did FASA have the
rights to do so. It appears that they did not, because none of the orginal
art is in R3.


--
Iridios

Pendere Et Illegitimi Non Carborundum
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam J)
Subject: 10 Rigger 3 gripes.
Date: Sun Jul 8 20:25:01 2001
At 09:33 08/07/2001, Robert Fanning wrote:

>10) They took out most of the cool illustrations that I have in the Rigger
>Black Book. I can understand space limitations, but surely we should be
>able to log on and find out what vehicles look like on an online forum (or a
>CD is cheap to make and sell with the book).

This idea is under consideration for the official web page, but it's way
down on the priorities list, especially as a lot of the Rigger Black Book
art was... lacking, in many peoples opinins. :-)

Adam
Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com
< http://tss.dumpshock.com / http://www.jillted.org / adamj@*********.com >
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Reeve)
Subject: 10 Rigger 3 gripes.
Date: Mon Jul 9 01:05:01 2001
<This idea is under consideration for the official web page, but it's <way
<down on the priorities list, especially as a lot of the Rigger Black <Book
<art was... lacking, in many peoples opinins. :-)


Yeah...but it was still art!! Then I could see the absurdity of the Bull
Dog step van, which looks like a tent with wheels. But I could see it. ;)

Bishop

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 10 Rigger 3 gripes.
Date: Tue Jul 17 01:50:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> > 5) Engines - I wished to swap the EC engine in the
glider they have, so that it could run on solar cells
and charge the battery - you can get them for drone
mini-blimps, which is ok I guess. Could I rig an AC
rectifier to give the EC engine power from the solar
cells and just let it drift along, or to suppliment
the power requirements? Surely a normal battery
powered engine is enough for an ultralight glider?
> >
> > <Snip>
>
> Whooah! You might want to write up a complete set of
rules for this and submit them. You sound like you
know what you're talking about. If nothing else, I'd
like to see your version of these things, as I do have
to say that I _seriously_ wonder if R3 was ever proof
read for game mechanics, let alone actually
playtested!
<snipt!(TM)>
> Damion Milliken

Okay, could someone help me here, please? I may be
blind, but I recently got my hands (temporarily) on a
copy of Rigger 3 and I couldn't find anything that
said that electric cell engines couldn't work with the
solar cells option - and I DID look, because I've been
busily designing a van that runs off an EC engine
(lovely thing - faster than a gasoline-powered van and
with a signature of 5! :) ).

Or maybe I totally misunderstood what Robert was
talking about.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @*****.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about 10 Rigger 3 gripes., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.