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From:	danturek@*******.com (D. T)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Mon, 31 May 2004 18:23:03 -0400

Message no. 1 While I am not up on SR3, what do Sensors do now?

In the earlier editions your sensor package could be used with gunnery.
Gunnery 6 -> Specialized 8
Combat Pool 9 -> only 8 can be used
Sensors 6
Enhanced Articulation?
Move by Wire?
Reflex Recorders?
What else can add dice?

If you specialize, it really doesn't take much karma to raise a skill.

This is part of why I don't like SR3. I dislike Combat Pool.
Actually, I like all of SR3 except Combat Pool and the way they made the old
Concentrations into General Skills, and made Etiquette into one skill. I now
use Knowledge Skills, the new rules for Magic, the Matrix, and haven't read
yet on vehicles (so what do sensors do now?).

Of course, you can also use all your Combat Pool dice to dodge in SR3, and
I'm sure at Least one spell can still add dice to combat pool.

Also for Great Dragons, while I know it says Body +X/12, I assumed it meant
Body +X/+12. Was I the only one?

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From:	maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:05:00 +0200

Message no. 2 Le 1 juin 2004, à 00:23, D. T a écrit :

> While I am not up on SR3, what do Sensors do now?
>
> In the earlier editions your sensor package could be used with gunnery.

It still can. SR3, around p. 150 (can't give an exact page number as I
have the French version), "Sensor-Assisted Gunnery". Once you've locked
onto your target, you can use SAG to shoot it, rolling your Gunnery
skill + Half your Sensors rating (rounded down), against a TN equal to
your target's Signature, modified by the mods on the SAG table (and
only them -- making SAG a very powerful tool in the right hands). Use
of combat pool is allowed.
Drones running off their autopilot can only use SAG.

> Gunnery 6 -> Specialized 8
> Combat Pool 9 -> only 8 can be used
> Sensors 6

Rating 6 sensors are both very expensive and hard to get ahold of.
Rating 5 is the highest you can get at chargen, meaning it's probably
what you'll be stuck with till the end of the game unless the GM's name
is Monty Haul.

> Enhanced Articulation?

There's little chance the Artwinkulation is gonna work with
Sensors-Assisted Gunnery, given that all you're doing is controlling a
targeting computer (to even be able to use it you usually need to be a
rigger anyway).

> Move by Wire?

Only adds (indirectly) to combat pool. And above level 1, makes sure
you'll be dead quite soon.

> Reflex Recorders?

Same remark as Artwinkulation.

> What else can add dice?

Not much, given that Gunnery is linked to Intelligence.

> Of course, you can also use all your Combat Pool dice to dodge in SR3,
> and I'm sure at Least one spell can still add dice to combat pool.

Yeah, there is one. I think it's called Combat Sense, somewhere in
MitS.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"

From:	gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:47:49 +0200

Message no. 3 According to D. T, on Tuesday 01 June 2004 00:23 the word on the street
was...

> While I am not up on SR3, what do Sensors do now?

In shooting weapons, you can use sensor-enhanced gunnery. First you roll a
Sensor test to lock onto a target, and if successful, you get half
(rounded down) the Sensor rating in extra dice for Gunnery against that
target. That doesn't really add much, though, especially as high-rating
sensors get VERY expensive.

> Enhanced Articulation?

Yes, but I wouldn't allow it for Gunnery skill, as it's not a physical
activity.

> Also for Great Dragons, while I know it says Body +X/12, I assumed it
> meant Body +X/+12. Was I the only one?

I've usually read that as meaning that great dragons have 12 points of
hardened armor, not 12 extra points. Being able to shrug off hits from
_every_ weapon with Power 12 or less is good enough, IMHO :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 4 > > Also for Great Dragons, while I know it says Body
> +X/12, I assumed it
> > meant Body +X/+12. Was I the only one?

Well accually ..... yes you were because it says on
page 269 +10/12 for body.

now for the skill I said before:

quickness 6
Muscle toner 3 (the increase is considered natural)
Enhanced articulation
reflex recorder
mnemonic enhancer
a ranged weapon skill 6
specialization karma cost: 6 to 7 2karma,7 to 8 3
karma, 8 to 9 3 karma
signature weapon karma cost: 9 to 10 4karma, 10 to 11
4 karma, 11 to 12 5karma, 12 to 13 5karma, 13 to 14
6karma, 14 to 15 6 karma, 15 to 16 7 karma.

someone can do the math and tell me if i was wrong and
how many dices that produces

====

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From:	mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 2004 02:12:53 +0100

Message no. 5 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: 20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)

>
> > > Also for Great Dragons, while I know it says Body
> > +X/12, I assumed it
> > > meant Body +X/+12. Was I the only one?
>
> Well accually ..... yes you were because it says on
> page 269 +10/12 for body.
>
> now for the skill I said before:
>
> quickness 6
> Muscle toner 3 (the increase is considered natural)
> Enhanced articulation
> reflex recorder
> mnemonic enhancer
> a ranged weapon skill 6
> specialization karma cost: 6 to 7 2karma,7 to 8 3
> karma, 8 to 9 3 karma
> signature weapon karma cost: 9 to 10 4karma, 10 to 11
> 4 karma, 11 to 12 5karma, 12 to 13 5karma, 13 to 14
> 6karma, 14 to 15 6 karma, 15 to 16 7 karma.
>
> someone can do the math and tell me if i was wrong and
> how many dices that produces

Well, Mnemonic Enhancers were erratad to provide only 1 point of karma
reduction, and AFAIK you can only specialise to twice your base skill...
not sure what 'signature weapon' is...

But basically you will get to 12 specialised skill tops unless you
increas your base skill, and karma costs will add up considerably more
than the pre-errata Mnemonic Enhancer.

Matt

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From:	d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Sun, 6 Jun 2004 20:18:58 -0500

Message no. 6 >> signature weapon karma cost

can you point me at a rulebook reference for this "signature weapon"
I'd like to look into exactly what it details....

From:	korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Sun, 6 Jun 2004 23:56:23 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 7 > now for the skill I said before:
>
> quickness 6
> Muscle toner 3 (the increase is considered natural)
> Enhanced articulation
> reflex recorder
> mnemonic enhancer
> a ranged weapon skill 6
> specialization karma cost: 6 to 7 2karma,7 to 8 3
> karma, 8 to 9 3 karma
> signature weapon karma cost: 9 to 10 4karma, 10 to 11
> 4 karma, 11 to 12 5karma, 12 to 13 5karma, 13 to 14
> 6karma, 14 to 15 6 karma, 15 to 16 7 karma.
>
> someone can do the math and tell me if i was wrong and
> how many dices that produces

So, in a game where you (the GM) have given the players 50 or less
karma, you consider it perfectly normal that a PC have a skill of 16
with ANYTHING!!!??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Thank you for playing.

I suddenly understand ALL TOO WELL what I am reading/dealing with.

Good night.

Munchkins.

======Korishinzo
--done with all posts on this topic

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From:	maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:59:23 +0200

Message no. 8 Le 7 juin 2004, à 03:18, Derek Hyde a écrit :

>>> signature weapon karma cost
>
> can you point me at a rulebook reference for this "signature weapon"
> I'd like to look into exactly what it details....

It's in Cannon Companion. Basically an "over-specialization" that can
be used with one weapon only (not one type of weapon, one specific
weapon -- if your gun is destroyed, all that karma is wasted).

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"

From:	maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:55:12 +0200

Message no. 9 Le 7 juin 2004, à 01:08, Shiro BsquLadat a écrit :

>
> now for the skill I said before:
>
> quickness 6
> Muscle toner 3 (the increase is considered natural)
> Enhanced articulation
> reflex recorder
> mnemonic enhancer
> a ranged weapon skill 6
> specialization karma cost: 6 to 7 2karma,7 to 8 3
> karma, 8 to 9 3 karma
> signature weapon karma cost: 9 to 10 4karma, 10 to 11
> 4 karma, 11 to 12 5karma, 12 to 13 5karma, 13 to 14
> 6karma, 14 to 15 6 karma, 15 to 16 7 karma.
>
> someone can do the math and tell me if i was wrong and
> how many dices that produces

Wow. Now that's one ridiculously over-optimized one-trick pony if I
ever saw one.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"

From:	gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:40:31 +0200

Message no. 10 According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Monday 07 June 2004 01:08 the word on the
street was...

> someone can do the math and tell me if i was wrong and
> how many dices that produces

It doesn't look like you did the math wrong. IMHO where you went wrong is
to build your adventures for these kinds of characters, rather than have a
more realistic kind of adventure where this sort of skill will be useful
maybe once, and for the rest of the time they'll find that they're FAR
over-specialized.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	psycho@*********.co.nz (Keith Duthie)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Tue, 8 Jun 2004 15:46:56 +1200 (NZST)

Message no. 11 On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Max Noel wrote:

> Wow. Now that's one ridiculously over-optimized one-trick pony if I
> ever saw one.

Two trick. With a quickness like that, he doesn't even *need* athletics to
run away quickly when his other trick doesn't work ;-)

--
Just because it isn't nice doesn't make it any less a miracle.
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-

From:	msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark Shieh)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Tue, 8 Jun 2004 01:50:12 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 12 Heh, any GM I've ever met would find a way to lose the gun, making him
a
one trick again.

Mark

> -----Original Message-----
> Keith Duthie
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 8:47 PM
>
>
> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Max Noel wrote:
>
> > Wow. Now that's one ridiculously over-optimized
> one-trick pony if I
> > ever saw one.
>
> Two trick. With a quickness like that, he doesn't even *need*
> athletics to run away quickly when his other trick doesn't work ;-)

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From:	psycho@*********.co.nz (Keith Duthie)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Wed, 9 Jun 2004 02:21:03 +1200 (NZST)

Message no. 13 On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Mark Shieh wrote:

> Heh, any GM I've ever met would find a way to lose the gun, making him
> a
> one trick again.

An evil GM would just run a series of adventures in which social skills
and avoiding combat (ie planning) are the only real ways of successfully
completing the mission.

Of course, there's also ensuring that the PC can't actually take the gun
to wherever the combat is going to be...

Oh, and then after that, of course, running two combat based missions; one
in which the gun is actually useful, and the other in which the gun is
broken or lost.

*grin*

--
Just because it isn't nice doesn't make it any less a miracle.
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-

From:	wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:08:11 -0300

Message no. 14 > Oh, and then after that, of course, running two combat based missions; one
> in which the gun is actually useful, and the other in which the gun is
> broken or lost.
>
> *grin*

In fact, it would be no big deal for a not-as-lame-as-one-might-think
dragon to shred the gun to pieces with a single spell...

just nitpicking. :-)

From:	d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:12:31 -0500

Message no. 15 >> Two trick. With a quickness like that, he doesn't even *need*
>> athletics to run away quickly when his other trick doesn't work ;-)
>>

just say munchkin.....with a quickness like that, defaulting to the
attribute still give them plenty of dice for other weapons rolls

From:	mestre_bira@***.com.br (Bira)
Subject:	20+ Dice (and a bit about dragons)
Date:	Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:21:30 +0000

Message no. 16 Mark Shieh wrote:
> Heh, any GM I've ever met would find a way to lose the gun, making him
> a
> one trick again.

Why?

So the guy shoots with 20+ dice. Big whoop. Let him have his fun when
it's time to shoot people, and make sure everyone else has something to
do when it's time to socialize, or be sneaky.

If combat is such a big part of the game that someone with this kind of
skill is sure to break it, talk to the guy and explain your situation.
If he really insists on spoiling everyone's fun so he can have his pony,
kick him out.

Bira

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