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Message no. 1
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:09:11 PST
I'm confused about the penalty for shooting 2 handed and the
ambidexterity skill/ edge.

The combat modifier "using second weapon" is pretty clear: +2 to both
guns, no using smartlinks or lazers (hmm, but the enhanced aim spell or
firearms competency....)

Thats from the basic book. Thats how you use 2 guns, right?

So what does the ambidexterity edge/skill gain you? The penalty still
aplies when using a second firearm, and the skill adds a NEW penalty for
the off hand!

What gives? Is abidexterity any help when using two guns- have I missed
something?

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

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Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:26:38 -0500
> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 3:09 PM

> I'm confused about the penalty for shooting 2 handed and the
> ambidexterity skill/ edge.

> The combat modifier "using second weapon" is pretty clear: +2 to both
> guns, no using smartlinks or lazers (hmm, but the enhanced aim spell or
> firearms competency....)

> Thats from the basic book. Thats how you use 2 guns, right?

> So what does the ambidexterity edge/skill gain you? The penalty still
> aplies when using a second firearm, and the skill adds a NEW penalty for
> the off hand!

> What gives? Is abidexterity any help when using two guns- have I missed
> something?

You missed something. ;) See, what you missed is the penalty for using
your off hand. That's also a +2. Basically, whenever you try to do
anything with your off hand, you have a +2 to your TN. So, if you were
shot in the right arm, you would be forced to shoot with your left hand.
If you are right-handed, then the off hand penalty of +2 would apply to
your success tests.

Thus, if you were using two pistols (for example) and were right-handed,
you would have a +2 to the gun in your right hand for using two weapons at
once. You would have a +4 to the gun in your left hand (for using two
weapons and for using your off hand). Also, keep in mind that recoil from
one gun affects the TN of BOTH guns.

Not to mention, this all assumes you are aiming at the same target. If you
are aiming at two separate targets, apply +2 to each gun because you are
effectively doing the same thing as if you were changing targets. (This
last part is a judgement call that I made. I don't think the rules cover
it specifically.)

Now, if you bought the Ambidexterity edge, you would have a +2 for your
right hand and a +2 for your left hand (instead of the normal +4). Recoil
would still carry over, and you still wouldn't get the benefits of
smartlinks, etc. And, if you agree with my reasoning about shooting at
seperate targets, that would also apply here if the character was doing so.

The short version:

You simply missed the +2 TN modifier for using your off (non-dominant)
hand.

Oh, and I completely ignore the fact that an ambidexterity skill ever
existed. I don't like those optional rules. I just use the edge.

> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
> of a psychotic - Einstein

Justin :)
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:00:58 +0100
Mon goose said on 12:09/26 Jan 98...

> I'm confused about the penalty for shooting 2 handed and the
> ambidexterity skill/ edge.

<aol>Me too.</aol>

> The combat modifier "using second weapon" is pretty clear: +2 to both
> guns, no using smartlinks or lazers (hmm, but the enhanced aim spell or
> firearms competency....)
>
> Thats from the basic book. Thats how you use 2 guns, right?

Yep.

> So what does the ambidexterity edge/skill gain you? The penalty still
> aplies when using a second firearm, and the skill adds a NEW penalty for
> the off hand!
>
> What gives? Is abidexterity any help when using two guns- have I missed
> something?

It only makes things more difficult; for example if I have Firearms 4 and
no Ambidexterity then I must add not only the +2 to both guns but also a
+4 to my off hand. If you use the Ambidexterity rules from FoF, there is
almost no point in doing something with your off hand unless you have a
very low skill, and that's also something that's bugging me about those
rules -- having a high skill rating makes it nearly impossible to use your
off hand for that skill, but with a low skill rating it's much easier.
Why?


--
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Message no. 4
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:16:56 PST
>You simply missed the +2 TN modifier for using your off >(non-dominant)
hand.
>

Not that I don't think that makes sense,but WERE IS THAT DAMNRULE
PRINTED? Not with 2 gun use. Not with ambidexterity. Is it somewher in
the MAGIC section?!? I seem to remeber such an item, though.

>Oh, and I completely ignore the fact that an ambidexterity skill ever
>existed. I don't like those optional rules. I just use the edge.
>

Well, yeah,the mods printed for ambidexterity skill are stupid, as
mentioned in Gurths thread. And since you can't buy the skill after
character creation (exceptto improve it), the edge is clearly the better
choice- simpler, AND cheaper.

BTW, for all the reason you mentioned, 2 hand gunfu seems a loosing
prospect. Odd- maybe realistic, I dunno, my freind wouldn't let me try
at the range. I susspect that i would have wasted a lot of bullets and
ruined my otherwise already crappy score. Doesn't work real well with
light guns, either.
But common, this is SR! You'd think there would be some tech or Mojo to
make it work somewhat, just for us Harvey Kytel / Chow Fun Fat fans.
Physad gunfo power, anyone? Enhanced aim spell? HMM, I suppose the
lazer eye designator / cyberarm thing might do - i think it says it can
drive regular cyberarms.

>> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
>> of a psychotic - Einstein
>
>Justin :)
>
>


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Message no. 5
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:20:40 +0000
On 27 Jan 98, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> >You simply missed the +2 TN modifier for using your off (non-dominant)
> > hand.

> Not that I don't think that makes sense,but WERE IS THAT DAMNRULE
> PRINTED? Not with 2 gun use. Not with ambidexterity. Is it somewher
> in the MAGIC section?!? I seem to remeber such an item, though.

Well, it's not anywhere I looked... Sigh.

<snip>
> BTW, for all the reason you mentioned, 2 hand gunfu seems a loosing
> prospect. Odd- maybe realistic, I dunno, my freind wouldn't let me
> try at the range. I susspect that i would have wasted a lot of
> bullets and ruined my otherwise already crappy score. Doesn't work
> real well with light guns, either. But common, this is SR! You'd
> think there would be some tech or Mojo to make it work somewhat,
> just for us Harvey Kytel / Chow Fun Fat fans. Physad gunfo power,
> anyone? Enhanced aim spell?

Yeah. Enhanced aim's description does not state that it won't work
with two guns, and I also allow laser sight bonus with two guns...

The +2 still hurts... But my physad uses two weapons ayway... <grin>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
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Time is the best teacher; unfortunately, it kills all its students.
Message no. 6
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:19:37 PST
>Yeah. Enhanced aim's description does not state that it won't work
>with two guns, and I also allow laser sight bonus with two guns...
>
>The +2 still hurts... But my physad uses two weapons ayway... <grin>
>

Yeah, you can cookup fancy smartlink / encepahlon systems that work,
too, but again, its not BTB, and is so obvious you think FASA would have
adressed it by now. You'd expect that at least a SL level 2 would have
such a capability, maybe limited to +1 per weapon, or just eliminating
the penalty.
It explictely say laser sights are out, but what about eye
lazertrackers?
The descriptionin cybertechnology says a cyber armis yyedto the system
and can track where it aims- what about more than 1 arm? Does that only
mean articulated arms, or regualr cyber arms also? If both arms tracked
automatically,that should remove the penalty for using 2 weapons, but
might create its own problems...
I remeber also that the eyle lazer's don't give the same bonus as laser
sights,but can't find thesource. Help? Its timeforanew character, and
I'm loking for someome with pure flash, but won't do it if its just
STUPID (and by our house rules, one good shot is much better than 4 bad
ones).

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Message no. 7
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:16:03 -0500
> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 1:16 PM

> >You simply missed the +2 TN modifier for using your off >(non-dominant)
> hand.

> Not that I don't think that makes sense,but WERE IS THAT DAMNRULE
> PRINTED? Not with 2 gun use. Not with ambidexterity. Is it somewher in
> the MAGIC section?!? I seem to remeber such an item, though.

Hm, I don't recall. Perhaps it's in the melee situational modifiers table
or something like that. I will have to check for it later. I mean, there
HAS to be a rule like this somewhere, or the Ambidexterity Skill/Edge are
completely meaningless. (Well, many of us think the skill is pretty
meaningless already, but...) ;)

Hell, even if you don't find a modifier listed, just use the +2. After
all, what matters is realism, not print on a page. Unless you are ambi,
you simply will have a harder time at performing an action with your off
hand than with your dominant hand. I know of a few exceptions to this on a
case-by-case basis, but you also have to keep it simple.

> >Oh, and I completely ignore the fact that an ambidexterity skill ever
> >existed. I don't like those optional rules. I just use the edge.

> Well, yeah,the mods printed for ambidexterity skill are stupid, as
> mentioned in Gurths thread. And since you can't buy the skill after
> character creation (exceptto improve it), the edge is clearly the better
> choice- simpler, AND cheaper.

You got it right in one.

> BTW, for all the reason you mentioned, 2 hand gunfu seems a loosing
> prospect. Odd- maybe realistic, I dunno, my freind wouldn't let me try
> at the range. I susspect that i would have wasted a lot of bullets and
> ruined my otherwise already crappy score. Doesn't work real well with
> light guns, either.
> But common, this is SR! You'd think there would be some tech or Mojo to
> make it work somewhat, just for us Harvey Kytel / Chow Fun Fat fans.
> Physad gunfo power, anyone? Enhanced aim spell? HMM, I suppose the
> lazer eye designator / cyberarm thing might do - i think it says it can
> drive regular cyberarms.

Okay, now you lost my vote. ;) See, that's very cinematic (a big clue is
that you referenced the cinema for reasons why this should work). In real
life (tm), it's just VERY difficult to fire two weapons at the same time.
If you make it too easy for a pc, then you might as well double the stats
of all the goons they're gonna shoot, 'cause you just made life a cake walk
for your players. Remember, if it doesn't have a down side, everyone will
want it.

> >> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
> >> of a psychotic - Einstein

Justin :)
Message no. 8
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:24:03 PST
>Okay, now you lost my vote. ;) See, that's very cinematic (a big clue
is that you referenced the cinema for reasons why this should work).

Not as a reason it should work- as a reason FASA should have included
clearer rules for folks wanting to do it, and a way to do so that isn't
clearly inferior to normal gun use. With a cost, like all SR's other
very cinmatic abilities.

>In real life (tm), it's just VERY difficult to fire two weapons at >the
same time.

I agree,but then, Its even harder (in real life) to cast a spell that
works or get cyberware.

>If you make it too easy for a pc, then you might as well double the
stats of all the goons they're gonna shoot, 'cause you just made life a
cake walk for your players. Remember, if it doesn't have a down side,
everyone will
>want it.
>

I didn't say no downside- sustaining a spell, buying a (multipoint)
physdad power, or getting two-cyberarms and an eyelaser tracker are all
reasonable downsides, IMO.
Using two guns competantly for a cost doesn't hold a candle, threa
twise, to some other things already allowed failry commonly in SR games.
Admitedly, the cost should be such that itis not something everyone
does, but its not gonna break the game (at least, in our campaign).

I mostly just wanted to know exactly what rules and possibilities were
allowed BTB before cooking up some house rule (like a +2 to off hand
fire for the non-ambidextrous). I'm contemplating a PC with this kinda
style, and don't want to get on shakey ground or bring out something new
that everyone WILL want.

Maybe it isn't or shouldn't be a valid option, but there are many things
far less resonable.

BTW, would fire from a tracking mount or articulate arm count as "using
a second weapon?" Cansuch items even beused to firemorethan one gun at
a time? Not that thats what I want- I don't quite see the point of
those things exept for on killer borgs.

>> >> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
>> >> of a psychotic - Einstein
>
>Justin :)
>


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Message no. 9
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:13:14 -0500
> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 7:24 PM

<Snip>

> >In real life (tm), it's just VERY difficult to fire two weapons at >the
> same time.

> I agree,but then, Its even harder (in real life) to cast a spell that
> works or get cyberware.

Apples and oranges. To the best of my knowledge, the laws of physics in SR
are about the same they are in our real world today. Thus, if firing two
guns at the same time is very difficult to do in RL, then the TN mods for
doing so in SR should reflect this.

I'm not going to argue the points of RL magic or cyberware. Those are
irrelevant to the argument, and I know that all the "magic is real" stuff
is against the rules of this mailing list.

My point was simply that SR isn't hollywood. It's OUR world (real life) in
a few decades. Sure, there's fantasy in it - that's great. But guns work
pretty much the same, and thus can be compared to real life guns....If you
want cinema, that's fine. Have all you want. If you want realism, then
make it very difficult to fire two weapons at the same time (and hit
anything) because that's the way it works.

<Snip>

> >> >> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
> >> >> of a psychotic - Einstein

Justin
Message no. 10
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:02:40 PST
>> >In real life (tm), it's just VERY difficult to fire two weapons at
>the same time.
>
>> I agree,but then, Its even harder (in real life) to cast a spell that
works or get cyberware.
>
>Apples and oranges. To the best of my knowledge, the laws of physics
in SR are about the same they are in our real world today. Thus, if
firing two guns at the same time is very difficult to do in RL, then the
TN mods for doing so in SR should reflect this.
>

And they do. I've got no problem with that.

Lifting 400Kg, running 50 KPH, and surviving multiple gunshot wounds are
also "impossible", cinmatic abilities, in our world, but cyberware and
magic exist in SR that let characters do just that. Is it "apples and
oranges" to compare such abilites to gunfu?
It would seem likely to me that a some sort of weapons use system
allowing true amidextrous attacks would be developed- maybe something
as "simple" as using a tactical computer to drive your off cyberarm the
way a sentry-gun is driven.

But apparently, BTB, there is no such system, except combat centering
for physads, or the cop out of designing a spell.

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Message no. 11
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:18:41 +0000
In article <199801280316.WAA12885@*****.provide.net>, Justin Pinnow
<vanyel@*******.NET> writes
>Apples and oranges. To the best of my knowledge, the laws of physics in SR
>are about the same they are in our real world today. Thus, if firing two
>guns at the same time is very difficult to do in RL, then the TN mods for
>doing so in SR should reflect this.

Unless there's some handy piece of cyberware available to ease the task?

>My point was simply that SR isn't hollywood. It's OUR world (real life) in
>a few decades. Sure, there's fantasy in it - that's great. But guns work
>pretty much the same, and thus can be compared to real life guns....If you
>want cinema, that's fine. Have all you want. If you want realism, then
>make it very difficult to fire two weapons at the same time (and hit
>anything) because that's the way it works.

The two are not incompatible. And SR guns really don't resemble real
guns much, they work like the weapons in the movies :)

--
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praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:56:26 -0500
> From: Paul J. Adam <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
> Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 6:18 PM

> In article <199801280316.WAA12885@*****.provide.net>, Justin Pinnow
> <vanyel@*******.NET> writes

> >Apples and oranges. To the best of my knowledge, the laws of physics in
SR
> >are about the same they are in our real world today. Thus, if firing
two
> >guns at the same time is very difficult to do in RL, then the TN mods
for
> >doing so in SR should reflect this.

> Unless there's some handy piece of cyberware available to ease the task?

Precisely. :)

I mean, Smartlinks make firing guns easier than in real life. If you
developed cyberwear that made it easier to target more than one object at a
time (for example), then you could very well make it easier to fire two
weapons at the same time. But, unless you do this you should understand
that it's VERY difficult to hit much of anything when firing two guns
(especially at two separate targets).

The reason that Smartlinks and laser sights don't help when firing two guns
is that your brain can't target two different things simultaneously (that
would be like looking left with your left eye and right with your right eye
at the same time). I'm not sure why you don't get anything from Smartlinks
or laser sights (even at a reduced value) when firing two guns at the SAME
target, but perhaps there is a reason I am unaware of.

> >My point was simply that SR isn't hollywood. It's OUR world (real life)
in
> >a few decades. Sure, there's fantasy in it - that's great. But guns
work
> >pretty much the same, and thus can be compared to real life guns....If
you
> >want cinema, that's fine. Have all you want. If you want realism, then
> >make it very difficult to fire two weapons at the same time (and hit
> >anything) because that's the way it works.

> The two are not incompatible. And SR guns really don't resemble real
> guns much, they work like the weapons in the movies :)

No. How much cinema you want in your campaign is purely your choice, of
course. You can integrate SR with as much cinema as you like. It's all
about style. I simply prefer the grittier, more deadly Shadowrun (it fits
the oppressive atmosphere, IMO).

And if the guns aren't reflective of RL, why not redesign them? I have to
go on what the books say, because I'm not a military or militia member ;)

Thus, I just go with what's there and it works. I still do what I can to
minimize the cinema that can come from lots of big guns and supernatural
PCs.

> Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Justin :)
Message no. 13
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:57:36 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
>Lifting 400Kg, running 50 KPH, and surviving multiple gunshot wounds are
>also "impossible", cinmatic abilities, in our world, but cyberware and


50 KPH, hrm, for how long? IIRC people have been clocked at 45 MPH (Sorry,
I'm American that's, unfortunately, what I use IIRC it's 72KPH). Surviving
multiple gunshot wounds... it's possible, just not very likely AND it
shadowrun it is hard to survive 3 "serious" wounds. Now given the new
medical advances in SR, Anything less is *fairly* survivable.

Of course it is quite cinematic, 'cuz wounds don't hurt but once. (That
should be changed). Moving, running, hell, BLEEDING can cause a LOT of
additional damage that the SR wound system doesn't take into thought.
Anyway, I gotta get to church (still got 65+ messages, BAH)
Message no. 14
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:36:40 -0500
At 12:02 PM 1/28/98 PST, you wrote:

>And they do. I've got no problem with that.
>
>Lifting 400Kg, running 50 KPH, and surviving multiple gunshot wounds are
>also "impossible", cinmatic abilities, in our world, but cyberware and
>magic exist in SR that let characters do just that. Is it "apples and
>oranges" to compare such abilites to gunfu?

Yes, for one small reason: The cyber necessary is only really desirable to
a small segment of the population. The military doesn't need it (rifles
are far more the useful item to match cyber to in the military); corps
don't need it for the same reason (more firepower? that's what SMGs and
rifles are for). The only ones who would want it are people who want to be
flashy, and that's not worth the time of a corp to invest designing it.
Now, it's possible that some street doc might work out the necessaries, but
only if the profit were there (e.g. he had an entire gang who wanted 'em,
so he'd sell a lot of them after developing it).

>It would seem likely to me that a some sort of weapons use system
>allowing true amidextrous attacks would be developed- maybe something
>as "simple" as using a tactical computer to drive your off cyberarm the
>way a sentry-gun is driven.

Possibly, but it's a lot of trouble to get a cyber limb (they're not very
useful in SR, really) for ambidextrous pistol shooting, let alone the tac
comp.

>But apparently, BTB, there is no such system, except combat centering
>for physads, or the cop out of designing a spell.

People in SR who run the shadows make use of items developed for use by
corps and the military, when it comes to weapons. Occasionally you'll see
improvisations that came up from the street (Gibson mentions a few of these
things in his novels, too) but mostly it's adapting what's available from
the official sources. Gunfu fighting just isn't enough of a priority for
the people who design cyber. That isn't to say you can't get it, but it
isn't going to show up in a BTB rule because it's not 'realistic' for the
SR setting. Wired reflexes, smartlinks, VCRs, datajacks, etc. all turn a
profit, and are of use to any corp and a lot of private individuals, thus
they are developed and marketed (sometimes to only a very limited
clientele, but one large enough to make it worth the investments).

losthalo
Message no. 15
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:01:11 PST
>>Lifting 400Kg, running 50 KPH, and surviving multiple gunshot wounds
are also "impossible", cinmatic abilities, in our world, but cyberware
and magic exist in SR that let characters do just that. Is it "apples
and oranges" to compare such abilites to gunfu?
>
>Yes, for one small reason: The cyber necessary is only really
desirable to a small segment of the population. The only ones who would
want it are people who want to be flashy, and that's not worth >the time
of a corp to invest designing it.

That makes a world of sense, and I like it, but for 2 things:
- magic doesn't give a rats ass whats profitable. Who "developed"
physical adept abilities? They may be genrally useful, yes, but they
are not geared towards PROFIT, afaik. Many seem ed aimed mainly at
flash, in fact.
-lots of cyberware seems equally esoteric and unlikely to return profit.
It could be the result of general research, though-I always sawwired
reflexes more as a Simsense spinoff than as intentionally researched.

>>It would seem likely to me that a some sort of weapons use system
>>allowing true amidextrous attacks would be developed- maybe something
as "simple" as using a tactical computer to drive your off cyberarm the
way a sentry-gun is driven.
>
>Possibly, but it's a lot of trouble to get a cyber limb (they're not
very useful in SR, really) for ambidextrous pistol shooting, let alone
the tac comp.
>

Yeah, that always bugged me- cyberlimbs, useful or not, affordable or
not, get tacked onto all kinds of npcs. WHY?
The idea listed is not intented to be an easy way out, and I can see why
it wouldn't be available streettech. But yikes, whats up with that
articulate arm-whose gonna invest in THAT things developement? Then
again, what developlment- its a body mounted gun mount. Not rocket
science.

>>But apparently, BTB, there is no such system, except combat centering
for physads, or the cop out of designing a spell.
>
>People in SR who run the shadows make use of items developed for use by
corps and the military, when it comes to weapons. Occasionally you'll
see improvisations that came up from the street (Gibson mentions a few
of these things in his novels, too) but mostly it's adapting what's
available from the official sources. Gunfu fighting just isn't enough
of a priority for the people who design cyber. That isn't to say you
can't get it, but it isn't going to show up in a BTB >rule because it's
not 'realistic' for the SR setting.

All eminantly sensable justification for not having such a system in any
book, I agree. I'm sure it would fit nicely in some SR novel, or
shadowtalk.

Maybe, as an alternative, its just best not to mess with the corpus
callausioum in search of ambidexterity, even if technologically posible.
Iv'e seen 'wares on the net that were centered around such mods and
always thought they seemed improbable, based on my knowledge of brain
(dis)function. Thickening or thining that part of the brain doesn't
lead to better or worse fuction- it leads to altered personality and
information processing.

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Message no. 16
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:14:21 -0500
Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr.[SMTP:gilmeth@*********.COM] wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> >Lifting 400Kg, running 50 KPH, and surviving multiple gunshot wounds are
> >also "impossible", cinmatic abilities, in our world, but cyberware and
>
> 50 KPH, hrm, for how long? IIRC people have been clocked at 45 MPH (Sorry,
> I'm American that's, unfortunately, what I use IIRC it's 72KPH). Surviving

Uh, yeah that's 72kph. Which means running 1km in 50s,
or 100m in 5s (or an 80s mile)! Now *that's* a world record! :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 17
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:35:35 PST
>> >Lifting 400Kg, running 50 KPH, and surviving multiple gunshot wounds
are also "impossible", cinmatic abilities
>>
>> 50 KPH, hrm, for how long? IIRC people have been clocked at 45 MPH
(Sorry,I'm American that's, unfortunately, what I use IIRC it's 72KPH).
Surviving
>

By the SR combat rules, I played a samurai who averaged 55 meters per
combat turn. Not using atletics (didn't have it). Thats just
moderately fast. SR characters can run faster, easily. And thats
100meters in under 6 seconds.
Ben Jhonsen did what, 100 meters in 8.9 sec? Jhonsen was doing then ~40
kmh, or ~25mph. Thats the fasest human run EVER, afiak.
45 mph would equate to doing 100m in 5 seconds. Nobody has been that
fast. If poeple (multiple) have been clocked at that speed, I'm missing
something. Horses run that fast, not people. Its hard going that fast
on a bicycle.

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Message no. 18
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:32:54 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
>> >Lifting 400Kg, running 50 KPH, and surviving multiple gunshot wounds are
>> >also "impossible", cinmatic abilities, in our world, but cyberware
and
>>
>> 50 KPH, hrm, for how long? IIRC people have been clocked at 45 MPH
(Sorry,
>> I'm American that's, unfortunately, what I use IIRC it's 72KPH).
Surviving
>
>Uh, yeah that's 72kph. Which means running 1km in 50s,
>or 100m in 5s (or an 80s mile)! Now *that's* a world record! :-)
>
Hey, I didn't say how long, IIRC the W.R. for the mile is only a little less
than 4 mins. but, over very short distances people have been clocked that
fast, again IIRC. (I was arguing that NO ONE could move that fast but, the
althelets here [at my school] said something like 45 MPH)
Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:20:04 +0000
In article <199801282359.SAA23187@*****.provide.net>, Justin Pinnow
<vanyel@*******.NET> writes
>> From: Paul J. Adam <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
>> The two are not incompatible. And SR guns really don't resemble real
>> guns much, they work like the weapons in the movies :)
>
>No.

Yes.

:)

>And if the guns aren't reflective of RL, why not redesign them?

It makes the game too lethal. Realism = lots of dead characters.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:12:45 +1000
Boyd writes:
>>Uh, yeah that's 72kph. Which means running 1km in 50s,
>>or 100m in 5s (or an 80s mile)! Now *that's* a world record! :-)
>>
>Hey, I didn't say how long, IIRC the W.R. for the mile is only a little
less
>than 4 mins. but, over very short distances people have been clocked that
>fast, again IIRC. (I was arguing that NO ONE could move that fast but, the
>althelets here [at my school] said something like 45 MPH)


Remember, a Shadowrun combat turn lasts 3 seconds, approx. And most
sprinters reach peak speed within about 2 seconds of starting and then start
slowing down. So yeah, I'd believe that the record for a person's PEAK speed
(as opposed to average speed) would be about 45MPH. Just not for long.

Hmm... the average (non-cybered) athlete would be able to run at 6x4 meters
in 3 seconds... 24 meters in 3 seconds, 72 meters in 9, 96 in 12 seconds. IF
they pulled over two actions (would happen about 1/3rd of the time, so once
in the three seconds), they could do another 6 meters. Max case, with two
actions each time, you get 90 meters in 9 seconds, or about 100 meters in 10
seconds. Doesn't seem so bad, does it? Throw in Running skills, and you'll
be pushing the record.

The point is that cyber/magic really does make a BIG difference in this.

The area SR falls down in this is fatigue, rather than anything else. In
theory, the person could do that all day.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons.
Message no. 21
From: Haloween Jack <ST97000132@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed gunfu
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:09:43 -0500
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:09:11 PST Mon goose
<landsquid@*******.COM> wrote:


> I'm confused about the penalty for shooting 2 handed and the
> ambidexterity skill/ edge.

Yeah OK I am with you here.

> So what does the ambidexterity edge/skill gain you? The penalty still
> aplies when using a second firearm, and the skill adds a NEW penalty for
> the off hand!

The rule you are referring to is the one from FoF which I
honestly think is practically unplayable. Don't use it.

>
> What gives? Is abidexterity any help when using two guns- have I missed
> something?

Ambidexterity should not help at all when using two guns.
The difficulty in using two guns is co-ordinating the two
weapons. Try rubbing your head and tapping your stomach and
then switch to rubbing your stomach .... you will notice
that it takes a second to readjust.
Now bring in concepts like motion tracking and the
fact that you have a slight shift in your field of vision
depending on which eye you use etc. This is where the
ambidexterity does not help.
he ambidexterity only means that you can use either
hand just a well and doesn't mean that you could
co-ordinate them better.


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its pain! Pain! PAIN!"

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