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Message no. 1
From: Loche7 loche7@*****.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:21:38 -0400 (EDT)
If I use 2 guns, what are the rules for firing the second gun?

John

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Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:36:56 +0200
According to Loche7, at 5:21 on 15 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> If I use 2 guns, what are the rules for firing the second gun?

You get a +2 TN modifier, the recoil from one weapon applies to the other,
and lasers and smartlinks don't help (see SR3, p. 112). For example, if
you hold two SMGs and fire a burst from each, they both get a +8 TN
modifier -- +3 from the burst the gun itself fires, +3 from the burst of
the other gun, and +2 for using two firearms.

--
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Message no. 3
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:09:43 +0200
And finally, Loche7 expressed himself by writing:

> If I use 2 guns, what are the rules for firing the second gun?

You get the following modifiers:

right hand: +2 for using two weapons

left hand (I suppose this is your off.hand): +2 for using
two weapons, +2 for using your off.hand

You cannot use smartgun or lasersights, uncompensated
recoil apllies to both weapons (and no, left-over comp.points
don't apply)

arclight
Message no. 4
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:05:24 -0400
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:09:43 +0200 "Arclight" <arclight@*********.de>
writes:
> And finally, Loche7 expressed himself by writing:
>
> > If I use 2 guns, what are the rules for firing the second gun?
>
> You get the following modifiers:
>
> right hand: +2 for using two weapons
>
> left hand (I suppose this is your off.hand): +2 for using
> two weapons, +2 for using your off.hand
>
> You cannot use smartgun or lasersights, uncompensated
> recoil apllies to both weapons (and no, left-over comp.points
> don't apply)
>
> arclight
>

Actually, in core SR3, there is no off-hand penalty, it is just a
straight +2 for both hands, with recoil applying to both.
House rules vary of course, and I assume that they will probably think up
a new off-hand system eventually.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 5
From: Frank Pelletier (Trinity) fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:22:58 -0400
Loche7 <loche7@*****.com> once wrote,

> If I use 2 guns, what are the rules for firing the second gun?
>
> John

Okay memory... work, damnit...

+2 for the first gun on all TNs, +4 on the second gun on all TNs. Unless
you take the edge "Ambidextry", in which case it's only +0, +2.

Any and all target enhancers (smartgun links, laser sights, etc.) DO NOT
work when you fire with both hands.

All in all, it's not worth it.... efficiency-wise. But hell, we're not
here for that, are we? It's all about style...

<GatoradeMusic>

Like Chow Yun Fat... If I could be like Chow Yun Fat... I wanna be I wanna
be I wanna be like Chow Yun Fat...

</GatoradeMusic>

Trinity
---------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
"Let them hate me, provided they fear me" - Atreus

Trinity- on the Undernet and EFNet
Message no. 6
From: Alex van der Kleut sommers@*****.edu
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:37:04 -0400
At 11:05 AM 9/15/99 , vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
>Actually, in core SR3, there is no off-hand penalty, it is just a
>straight +2 for both hands, with recoil applying to both.
>House rules vary of course, and I assume that they will probably think up
>a new off-hand system eventually.

Actually, in core SR3 there IS a penalty for using your off-hand, whether
you are using one or two guns. Its listed under the Combat Modifiers
section. There is also a bit a few pages later on using two pistols or
SMG's at the same time.


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 7
From: Eric Lemme e-lemme@***.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:34:05 -0500
Arclight wrote:
>
> And finally, Loche7 expressed himself by writing:
>
> > If I use 2 guns, what are the rules for firing the second gun?
>
> You get the following modifiers:
>
> right hand: +2 for using two weapons
>
> left hand (I suppose this is your off.hand): +2 for using
> two weapons, +2 for using your off.hand
>
> You cannot use smartgun or lasersights, uncompensated
> recoil apllies to both weapons (and no, left-over comp.points
> don't apply)
>
> arclight

Something I tried to do with my gm was to get around the no smartlink
with a custom skillwires program essentially turning the character into
a weapons platform where both weapons track the same target point. My
gm didnt buy but maybe yours will :)

I still think it should work. You need to program in some really cool
moves maybe where you stand sideways to your target with one hand behind
your back :)
Message no. 8
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:53:40 -0500
Eric Lemme wrote:

> Something I tried to do with my gm was to get around the no smartlink
> with a custom skillwires program essentially turning the character into
> a weapons platform where both weapons track the same target point. My
> gm didnt buy but maybe yours will :)
>
> I still think it should work. You need to program in some really cool
> moves maybe where you stand sideways to your target with one hand behind
> your back :)

I think the dual pistols is a cool style concept (ala Chow Yun Fat) and
should be a viable combat choice as well. I've made this possible by
allowing characters (and nasty NPCs) to get a new skill:

Dual (Weapon Skill): A specific weapon category that can be fired with
one hand must be chosen at the purchasing of the skill (i.e. Pistols,
SMGs). A person with this skill may ignore the penalties for firing two
weapons, including any off-hand penalty. Smartlinks and other targeting
devices still may not be used in conjunction with this skill. A
character must have the basic skill at an equal or greater level than
the Dual Weapon Skill, but when firing two weapons only uses the Dual
Weapon Skill. This skill costs twice as many Skill Points (and Karma)
per level as a normal skill

So if someone wants to be firing 2 pistols, they are going to be paying
through the nose in starting character points. It may not be the most
realistic approach, but it definitely is game balancing. Note that the
skill doesn't help someone with the recoil, so twin SMGs is still going
to have some problems. However, if someone wants to spend 18 skill
points to get Pistols 6 and Dual Pistols 6, then they are welcome to.


--
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Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
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spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:17:21 +0200
According to Frank Pelletier (Trinity), at 11:22 on 15 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Okay memory... work, damnit...
>
> +2 for the first gun on all TNs, +4 on the second gun on all TNs. Unless
> you take the edge "Ambidextry", in which case it's only +0, +2.

I feel I must point out that this, together with Arclight's post that said
the same thing, is not correct BTB. SR3 (and SRII) make it a +2 for both
hands -- no different mods for each, or anything like that.

> Any and all target enhancers (smartgun links, laser sights, etc.) DO NOT
> work when you fire with both hands.

This, though, is correct.

> All in all, it's not worth it.... efficiency-wise. But hell, we're not
> here for that, are we? It's all about style...

It depends on the style of gameplay you want. If you like the guns
blazing, Hollywood style of combat, sure, these modifiers are too
restrictive. But if you want realistic combat, they're probably too easy
on the shooter :)

--
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Message no. 10
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:29:00 -0400
>I think the dual pistols is a cool style concept (ala Chow Yun Fat)
and
>should be a viable combat choice as well. I've made this possible by
>allowing characters (and nasty NPCs) to get a new skill:
>
>Dual (Weapon Skill): A specific weapon category that can be fired
with
>one hand must be chosen at the purchasing of the skill (i.e. Pistols,
>SMGs). A person with this skill may ignore the penalties for firing
two
>weapons, including any off-hand penalty. Smartlinks and other
targeting
>devices still may not be used in conjunction with this skill. A
>character must have the basic skill at an equal or greater level than
>the Dual Weapon Skill, but when firing two weapons only uses the Dual
>Weapon Skill. This skill costs twice as many Skill Points (and Karma)
>per level as a normal skill


Isn't that the Ambidexterity skill detailed in Fields of Fire? Except
it cost the normal amount, and my group limited it to Ambidexterity
(Weapon Skill). You had to have at least as many Weapons Skill dice
as Ambidexterity dice, but you still used your Ambidexterity dice when
firing two weapons at the same time.

-----
AK404

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ICQ: 2157053

"Just because you win doesn't mean you're right."
Message no. 11
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:09:04 -0400
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:37:04 -0400 Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.edu>
writes:
> At 11:05 AM 9/15/99 , vocenoctum@****.com wrote:
> >Actually, in core SR3, there is no off-hand penalty, it is just a
> >straight +2 for both hands, with recoil applying to both.
> >House rules vary of course, and I assume that they will probably
> think up
> >a new off-hand system eventually.
>
> Actually, in core SR3 there IS a penalty for using your off-hand,
> whether
> you are using one or two guns. Its listed under the Combat Modifiers
>
> section. There is also a bit a few pages later on using two pistols
> or
> SMG's at the same time.
>
>
> Sommers
> Insert witty quote here.
>


I could not find any off-hand penalty in core SR3.
There is the old FoF system that was just plain wierd to me, but others
like.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 12
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:32:43 -0700
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:09:04 vocenoctum wrote:

>I could not find any off-hand penalty in core SR3.
>There is the old FoF system that was just plain wierd to me, but others
>like.

Don't confuse the FoF ambidexterity rules with the core off-hand penalty. Just because
you are ambidextrous doesn't mean you can wield 2 weapons simultaneously very well.

In SR2 (not sure about SR3 - don't have a book handy), there is a +2 TN modifier for doing
anything with your off hand. It had nothing to do with whether you were wielding 1 weapon
or 2. There are additional modifiers for using 2 weapons at once, but that's its own
issue. Ambidexterity is good for those times where you are forced to use your off hand,
because it negates the +2 TN penalty (it does this in different ways, depending upon which
rules you use).

>Vocenoctum

Justin


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Message no. 13
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:33:30 -0400
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:32:43 -0700 " Kelson " <kelson13@*******.com>
writes:
> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:09:04 vocenoctum wrote:
>
> >I could not find any off-hand penalty in core SR3.
> >There is the old FoF system that was just plain wierd to me, but
> others
> >like.
>
> Don't confuse the FoF ambidexterity rules with the core off-hand
> penalty. Just because you are ambidextrous doesn't mean you can
> wield 2 weapons simultaneously very well.
>
> In SR2 (not sure about SR3 - don't have a book handy), there is a +2
> TN modifier for doing anything with your off hand. It had nothing
> to do with whether you were wielding 1 weapon or 2.


Nope, I don't see anything in SR 2 or 3 :-)
They both have the same rules for second firearm.
I also think there was something under the ambidexterity merit in
compandion, but not sure.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 14
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 01:39:55 +0200
And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:

> I feel I must point out that this, together with Arclight's post
> that said
> the same thing, is not correct BTB. SR3 (and SRII) make it a +2 for both
> hands -- no different mods for each, or anything like that.

Yeah, I read the combat section shortly after this;
my answer to the initial system includes a houserule...
I am sorry for this.

arclight
Message no. 15
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 01:39:56 +0200
And finally, Eric Lemme expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> Something I tried to do with my gm was to get around the no smartlink
> with a custom skillwires program essentially turning the character into
> a weapons platform where both weapons track the same target point. My
> gm didnt buy but maybe yours will :)

I am the GM, and no, I wouldn't allow this :)
At one point, I allowed a ambidextrous char to shoot
with two pistols at one target without these penalties,
but I was young and way to nice at that time :)

> I still think it should work. You need to program in some really cool
> moves maybe where you stand sideways to your target with one hand behind
> your back :)

If you just want to be cool, bear the penalties.
You don't need to kill every poor sob within combat,
maybe your GM makes them run away when a dozen bullets
ricochet around them...

arclight
Message no. 16
From: Loche7 loche7@*****.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:17:00 -0400 (EDT)
What if you use two smartlinks, one in each hand. Wouldn't that work then?

If not, why?

John

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Message no. 17
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:16:36 -0700
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Loche7 <loche7@*****.com>
writes:
> What if you use two smartlinks, one in each hand. Wouldn't that work
then?

Technically no.

> If not, why?

The smartlinks will track the targets properly but YOU won't track the
target's properly ... Try to keep two laser pointers (one in each hand)
on two separately moving targets ... you can't.

Now, against a single target, I think it should work properly but I'm not
sure to what degree ... You still have the same problem (Change to
separate moving targets to two targets moving in unison [or two different
internal organs :].).

What would perhaps solve this problem would be if you could somehow ... I
don't know ... multitask your cognitive needs ... ;)

--
D. Ghost
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Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
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Message no. 18
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 00:36:44 -0400
>What if you use two smartlinks, one in each hand. Wouldn't that work
then?
>
>If not, why?
>

The signals would get crossed. I forget what the smartgun is supposed
to do (all I really care is that it works), but say it places a dot
where your gun is pointing, your brain registers the shot, you pull
the trigger, and there it goes. Having two of those would confuse the
processor in your brain, wouldn't it?

OK, weak answer. Try focusing on two laser pointers at the same time
as they move in random directions. Not easy, is it? That's what
having two smartlinks would be like. I think.

-----
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ICQ: 2157053

"Just because you win doesn't mean you're right."
Message no. 19
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:57:58 -0700
> >Actually, in core SR3, there is no off-hand penalty, it is just a
> >straight +2 for both hands, with recoil applying to both.
> >House rules vary of course, and I assume that they will probably think
up
> >a new off-hand system eventually.
>
> Actually, in core SR3 there IS a penalty for using your off-hand, whether

> you are using one or two guns. Its listed under the Combat Modifiers
> section. There is also a bit a few pages later on using two pistols or
> SMG's at the same time.
>
> Sommers

Care to give a lazy bonehead like me a p.#? I can't find such a mod on
p.112, nor do I see any mention of using two guns " few pages later, or
anywhere but on p.112.


Mongoose


"These days, you have to be pretty technical before you can even aspire to
crudeness."
Message no. 20
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:00:58 -0700
> Something I tried to do with my gm was to get around the no smartlink
> with a custom skillwires program essentially turning the character into
> a weapons platform where both weapons track the same target point. My
> gm didnt buy but maybe yours will :)
>
> I still think it should work. You need to program in some really cool
> moves maybe where you stand sideways to your target with one hand behind
> your back :)

Naw, what you need is two identical guns, joined in parallel with a short
bar, and a smartlink package for that gun type mounted in the center.
Yeah, that's the ticket....

Mongoose
Message no. 21
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:55:37 +0200
According to Kelson, at 14:32 on 15 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> In SR2 (not sure about SR3 - don't have a book handy), there is a +2 TN
> modifier for doing anything with your off hand.

There's no modifier like that that I can find in the book. I've almost
always used a +2 for using the off hand, but it's not in the SRII or SR3
rulebook AFAIK.

> It had nothing to do with whether you were wielding 1 weapon or 2.
> There are additional modifiers for using 2 weapons at once, but that's
> its own issue.

That, in fact, is the only modifier that I _could_ find just now that
comes even close to a modifier for using the off hand. It's +2, but it
applies to both hands, not just one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:55:37 +0200
According to Loche7, at 22:17 on 15 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> What if you use two smartlinks, one in each hand. Wouldn't that work then?
>
> If not, why?

Because you're trying to line up two crosshairs with one target. Which
crosshair goes with which gun? You tend to find out only by moving one of
the guns, and you have a 50% chance of moving the wrong one, in which case
you need to line up both weapons with the target again.

A possible fix would be to use different colors or shapes of crosshair,
but that still doesn't take away the fact that you have to do this very
quickly in a combat situation, and so probably don't really have the time
to figure out which is which.

If you have two laser pointers (or even flashlights that you can set to a
very narrow beam) you could try it out with a laser in each hand. Try to
put both their dots on the chest of a friend a few meters away, for
example. If you can do that reasonably fast, try to do the same when that
friend is walking or running past you. My guess is you won't find it very
easy to do...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:08:20 -0400
At 01:39 AM 9/16/99 +0200, you wrote:
>And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:
>
> > I feel I must point out that this, together with Arclight's post
> > that said
> > the same thing, is not correct BTB. SR3 (and SRII) make it a +2 for both
> > hands -- no different mods for each, or anything like that.
>
> Yeah, I read the combat section shortly after this;
>my answer to the initial system includes a houserule...
>I am sorry for this.
>
>arclight

Me too. I could have sworn that the offhand penalty was in there somewhere,
but I went through both versions yesterday and couldn't find it. Maybe I
was thinking of a house rule that we use or something.

The way that we do it is to give a +2 TN to both guns for firing at the
same time at the same target. Unless you're Ambidextrous, you get an
additional +2 on the offhand. Then the normal recoil and laser problems.
But, there are additional edges you can purchase to reduce some of these
other penalties...


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 24
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 06:51:48 -0700
On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:08:20 Sommers wrote:
>Me too. I could have sworn that the offhand penalty was in there somewhere,
>but I went through both versions yesterday and couldn't find it. Maybe I
>was thinking of a house rule that we use or something.

Yeah, that could be. I think I might have done the same thing. ;) I could have sworn
that was a canon rule, but it might have been a house rule that just made sense. SR
wasn't really setup for handedness when you think about it. But there are instances when
you have damaged one arm or another and can't use it as well. For example, when someone
calls a shot to your gun arm. Well, say you take a Serious wound. Is it realistic to use
that arm to shoot with again? You could, but I don't think the standard +3 TN modifier
really covers this well, so I (as a house rule) double the modifier when using the
affected limb (I still use the normal +3 when not using that limb). Thus, you would be
better off switching to your undamaged arm and incurring a +2 TN penalty for using your
off hand (it just makes sense that you're not as good with shooting a gun with your off
hand unless you are ambidexterous). The total penalty would be +5 instead of +6.

>The way that we do it is to give a +2 TN to both guns for firing at the
>same time at the same target. Unless you're Ambidextrous, you get an
>additional +2 on the offhand. Then the normal recoil and laser problems.
>But, there are additional edges you can purchase to reduce some of these
>other penalties...

Yeah, Ambidexterity in my campaign is an Edge that simply gets rid of that off-hand +2
modifier (which I am now realizing is probably a house rule anyway). Using 2 weapons
would still incur the normal penalties for doing so per the standard rules.

Whew. Glad we got that cleared up. :)

>Sommers

Justin


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Message no. 25
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: 2 Handed Guns
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:06:14 -0500
Angelkiller 404 wrote:

> Isn't that the Ambidexterity skill detailed in Fields of Fire? Except
> it cost the normal amount, and my group limited it to Ambidexterity
> (Weapon Skill). You had to have at least as many Weapons Skill dice
> as Ambidexterity dice, but you still used your Ambidexterity dice when
> firing two weapons at the same time.

It is kind of except that it requires a specific weapon skill (like you
did) and costs twice as much. I think that making the skill normal cost
is still going to be too powerful, unless you don't allow starting
characters to have it. In SR2 there weren't as many skill points going
around, so it was a reasonable cost, but in SR3 it is very easy to have
40+ skill points and be a sammie with lots of cyberware. Doubling the
cost makes people think twice about it, but allows the concept
characters to exist and be cool.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.

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