Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Jyster Cap <jyster007@*****.COM>
Subject:	3G3
Date:	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:09:06 -0800

Message no. 1 Hey Gurth what is 3G3, I think I heard of it,

something to do with weapons. Where can you

get and if not available can you distribute it?

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From:	Peter Andersen <petera@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:51:57 -0800

Message no. 2 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD0971.6074BE60
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Guns Guns Guns version 3
ISBN: 0-943891-19-1
Its a BTRC product.

3G3 is a generic weapons creation system primarily for projectile =
(firearms, railguns) and coherent energy (laser). It's got predefined =
conversion for most game systems (not for SR, but I think someone was =
working on one). Other than a few math errors, it works very well.

I've got a spreadsheet (excel) that'll do all the calculation for =
standard firearms if you're interested in it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jyster Cap [SMTP:jyster007@*****.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 15, 1997 3:09 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: 3G3

Hey Gurth what is 3G3, I think I heard of it,

something to do with weapons. Where can you

get and if not available can you distribute it?

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:07:53 GMT

Message no. 3 On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:51:57 -0800, Peter Andersen wrote:

> Guns Guns Guns version 3
> ISBN: 0-943891-19-1
> Its a BTRC product.

It is available from BTRC (makers of the CORPS RPG system, I might add) in
hardcopy, Excel spreadsheet, and Adobe Acrobat format at the following URL:

http://members.aol.com/btrc/index.html

Your local FLGS should be able to get it in for you.

> 3G3 is a generic weapons creation system primarily for projectile
> (firearms, railguns) and coherent energy (laser). It's got
> predefined conversion for most game systems (not for SR, but I think
> someone was working on one). Other than a few math errors, it works
> very well.

I believe Gurth has conversion rules up on his site. I must warn you,
however, that the shortcomings of SR's combat system (ie: unrealistic and
inconsistent) becomes rather obvious in the text, since 3G3 was intended to
accurately model *realism*. The SR conversion rules are far from
simplistic.

> I've got a spreadsheet (excel) that'll do all the calculation for
> standard firearms if you're interested in it.

I might be interested in that :)

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:45:37 +0100

Message no. 4 Jyster Cap said on 15:09/15 Dec 97...

> Hey Gurth what is 3G3, I think I heard of it,
>
> something to do with weapons. Where can you
> get and if not available can you distribute it?

3G3 stans for Guns! Guns! Guns! and it's a weapon design system that
attempts to create realistic stats for them. The basic system is for
TimeLords, but there are conversion rules in the back for other systems,
and guidelines for creating your own conversion rules for systems not
included in the book. Be warned that it's math-intensive, though.

You should be able to buy it at game stores; the book is published by
BTRC.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
My mind is numb but my mouth's okay.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:45:38 +0100

Message no. 5 Peter Andersen said on 15:51/15 Dec 97...

First up, two requests: 1) kindly turn off the attachment before Mark
kicks you off the list; and 2) can you press Enter at the end of each
line? Your mailer doesn't automatically wrap words...

> Guns Guns Guns version 3
> ISBN: 0-943891-19-1
> Its a BTRC product.
>
> 3G3 is a generic weapons creation system primarily for projectile
> (firearms, railguns) and coherent energy (laser). It's got predefined
> conversion for most game systems (not for SR, but I think someone was
> working on one).

There are conversions rules for SR on my web page.

> Other than a few math errors, it works very well.

Are those math errors in my conversions, or in 3G3?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
My mind is numb but my mouth's okay.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:45:38 +0100

Message no. 6 James Lindsay said on 6:07/16 Dec 97...

> I believe Gurth has conversion rules up on his site.

Yes.

> I must warn you, however, that the shortcomings of SR's combat system
> (ie: unrealistic and inconsistent) becomes rather obvious in the text,
> since 3G3 was intended to accurately model *realism*.

This became very apparent when I was trying to fit the two together. I had
to add some strange features to make everything fit in a reasonable way,
unfortunately.

> The SR conversion rules are far from simplistic.

If you've got 3G3 down, they shouldn't pose many problems.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
My mind is numb but my mouth's okay.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	"Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:46:32 +0000

Message no. 7 On 16 Dec 97, James Lindsay disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

> > Guns Guns Guns version 3
> > ISBN: 0-943891-19-1
> > Its a BTRC product.
>
> It is available from BTRC (makers of the CORPS RPG system, I might
> add) in hardcopy, Excel spreadsheet, and Adobe Acrobat format at the
> following URL:
>
> http://members.aol.com/btrc/index.html
>
> Your local FLGS should be able to get it in for you.

Actually, Excel spreadsheet and Adobe format are available from
Hyperbooks... (www.hyperbooks.com) And they have Adobe format VDS
(Vehicle Design System), too...

<snip>
> I believe Gurth has conversion rules up on his site. I must warn
> you, however, that the shortcomings of SR's combat system (ie:
> unrealistic and inconsistent) becomes rather obvious in the text,
> since 3G3 was intended to accurately model *realism*. The SR
> conversion rules are far from simplistic.

Hmmm... How about using 3G3 to re-create standard SR weapons and use
them to benchmark SR system? I have already changed damage codes for
some weapons, like Heavy Pistols to 7D and ARs to 11M, so I guess we
could use 3G3 to get (more-less) realistic ranges and stuff...

Hmmm... I should look into that 3G3 stuff...

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
...at the heart of the order Amber represents moves a family most chaotic, just as the
House of Chaos is serene and placid. - a jackal

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:07:08 GMT

Message no. 8 On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:46:32 +0000, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> On 16 Dec 97, James Lindsay disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
> by writing:
>
> > I believe Gurth has conversion rules up on his site. I must warn
> > you, however, that the shortcomings of SR's combat system (ie:
> > unrealistic and inconsistent) becomes rather obvious in the text,
> > since 3G3 was intended to accurately model *realism*. The SR
> > conversion rules are far from simplistic.
>
> Hmmm... How about using 3G3 to re-create standard SR weapons and use
> them to benchmark SR system?

The problems I spoke about revolve around converting weapons built with 3G3
to the official Shadowrun system (no house rules). An example is that in
Shadowrun, heavy pistols "outpenitrate" combat rifles, and are at par with
high powered hunting rifles. This just isn't so in Real Life. Hence, the
3G3->SR conversion rules must incorporate a few additional "rules" to make
conversion possible.

You could recreate the damage codes of all the weapons in Shadowrun by
starting with a base weapon (pistol, SMG, assault rifle) and creating what
you might call a "control" weapon. All future converted weapons would be
based on their relationship to the abilities of that weapon.

You may then find, however, that weapons aren't the only things that will
need to be changed. Armour will need to be addressed first, followed by
explosives and melee weapons. Then, you may even need to toss out the
current Shadowrun "damage monitor" system and introduce something that uses
hit points. Now you've got to change the healing rules as well. And I
haven't even mentioned magic yet (oops, I just did).

It would be a noble effort to try to bring a bit more realism and
consistency to the Shadowrun rules and many of us would applaud you if you
succeeded. The trouble is, there is much more involved than simply coming
up with more realistic and consistent weapon statistics. Sigh.

> I have already changed damage codes for
> some weapons, like Heavy Pistols to 7D and ARs to 11M, so I guess we
> could use 3G3 to get (more-less) realistic ranges and stuff...

Yikes! You might want to explain why you think a heavy pistol cartridge
begins as "Deadly" damage while a combat rifle would begin at only
"Moderate". Without aiming or any real skill, you are assuming that
bullets fired from heavy pistols will kill an average unarmoured individual
most of the time. Yet you are also saying that the same individual would
be able to easily survive three such attacks by the same firer if he was
using a combat rifle instead.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:07:10 GMT

Message no. 9 On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:45:38 +0100, Gurth wrote:

> James Lindsay said on 6:07/16 Dec 97...
>
> > I believe Gurth has conversion rules up on his site.
>
> Yes.
>
> > I must warn you, however, that the shortcomings of SR's combat system
> > (ie: unrealistic and inconsistent) becomes rather obvious in the text,
> > since 3G3 was intended to accurately model *realism*.
>
> This became very apparent when I was trying to fit the two together. I had
> to add some strange features to make everything fit in a reasonable way,
> unfortunately.
>
> > The SR conversion rules are far from simplistic.
>
> If you've got 3G3 down, they shouldn't pose many problems.

Sorry. I was referring to the fact that, as 3G3 conversion rules go, the
SR conversion rules are much more complex than those of the other game
systems included in 3G3. All of the game systems whose conversion rules
are included with 3G3 are rather seriously concerned with realistic weapon
behaviour. Shadowrun isn't, so the conversion isn't as "clean" (eg: the
"strange features" you had to add).

Bravo on your attempt, in any case! :)

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: 3G3
Date:	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:30:04 +0100

Message no. 10 Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 15:46/16 Dec 97...

> Hmmm... How about using 3G3 to re-create standard SR weapons and use
> them to benchmark SR system? I have already changed damage codes for
> some weapons, like Heavy Pistols to 7D and ARs to 11M, so I guess we
> could use 3G3 to get (more-less) realistic ranges and stuff...

That's as much work as making the conversions fit SR. You need to figure
out SR equivalents to the Damage Values produced by 3G3, and then
re-calculate all of SR's weapon stats. Not just the damage, but the weight
as well; while you're at it, do the ranges too, and the Concealability is
also in need of adjustment for many weapons.

Not that I'm saying it can't be done, but the basic thing you need is a
good benchmark, which in SR is unfortunately more difficult to find than
in some other systems. 3G3 uses a simple rule as its basis: it takes 30
points of damage to kill an average person, and every 10 points of Damage
Value represents a D10 of damage. (Okay, that's two rules ;) So, a DV30
weapon will on average do 16.5 points of damage.

If you're converting to a system where everyone has, say, 50 hit points,
the DV conversion is easy: multiply by all DVs by 50/30 = 1.67. However,
SR doesn't have simple hit points and simple weapon damages, so the method
I used to create the conversion rules was to try and match existing 3G3
weapons to existing SR weapons which I thought were comparable to each
other. Do that for a range of weapons and you can try to work out a
formula. The one I came up with doesn't fit 100%, mainly due to the jumps
made by heavy pistols, sniper rifles, and assault cannons in SR.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's crap but we love it!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: 3G3))
Date:	Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:02:35 -0500

Message no. 11 On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:04:34 +0000 "Paul J. Adam"
<shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:

>>Oh, and you're also forgetting the motto of the US military
>procurement
>>system: Not Invented Here. :)
>
>You forget, I'm an engineer on the Sting Ray torpedo. Rejected in 1981
>by the US, because its unit price of $250,000 was "too high". The
>supposedly-superior US version hit $1M per weapon before it was
>cancelled.
>
>Now the US Navy depends on a 1950s-vintage weapon, at a price of
>$500,000 per torpedo.
>
>Meanwhile, the Royal Navy and RAF enjoy the finest lightweight ASW
>torpedo in the world, while the USN pays twice the price for a tweaked
>and tinkered 1958 weapon.
>
>But hey, at least they bought American ;)

Geez, Paul, did you honestly expect US Squids to be intelligent?
Especially once they hit an administrative position(I'm convinced a desk
job lowers military personell's IQ by at least 40)? =)

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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