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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 09:35:01 2001
Not to be pessimistic but, not to long time ago, somebody reminded us that the 2 previous
editions of the rigger handbook heralded a new edition of SR.

Now Rigger 3 was released and a few days later the closing of FASA was announced. WizKids
will take over the properties of SR, and what usualy happens when a new company acquires
an already established game? They produce a new edition.

If WizKids also gest the work in progress (Year of the Comet, Target: Awakened Lands and
possible others), then I wouldn't be surprised if they publish these first, but I'm ready
to bet a BABY that we will se a new edition of SR within the next 2 years!

Lars
--
Santa is very jolly because he knows where all the bad girls live.
--
Lars Wagner Hansen l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 09:45:02 2001
Von Lars :

<snip>

>If WizKids also gest the work in progress (Year of the Comet, Target:
>Awakened Lands and possible others), then I wouldn't be surprised if they
>publish these first, but I'm ready to bet a BABY that we will se a new
>edition of SR within the next 2 years!

Hmh - how good do the rulebooks sell atm? If they go well, there's IMO no
need...

Arclight
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Augustus)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 12:05:03 2001
----- Original Message -----
.From: Lars Wagner Hansen <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
.

.Not to be pessimistic but, not to long time ago, somebody reminded us that
the 2 previous .editions of the rigger handbook heralded a new edition of
SR.
.
.Now Rigger 3 was released and a few days later the closing of FASA was
announced. .WizKids will take over the properties of SR, and what usualy
happens when a new
.company acquires an already established game? They produce a new edition.
.
.If WizKids also gest the work in progress (Year of the Comet, Target:
Awakened
.Lands and possible others), then I wouldn't be surprised if they publish
these first, but
.I'm ready to bet a BABY that we will se a new edition of SR within the next
2 years!
.

It could be possible... mainly because, wizkids is buying the shadowrun and
battletech product lines to make money (or so we can assume they are, it'd
be kinda stupid to buy it for any other reason)

Since they are buying the games and not Fasa, that'd mean any money Fasa
makes by selling what stock they have now isn't going to line the pockets of
Wizkids... So, in order for them to make money off the Shadowrun line,
they'd either have to be able to sell enough Shadowrun stuff after they get
the rights (by selling books already produced) or else they need to come up
with their own stuff... and if they are going to come up with their own
stuff, it'd make sense to start with a clean slate and come up with their
own new edition.

Augustus
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 12:55:01 2001
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In a message dated 01/28/2001 10:02:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
arclight@*********.de writes:


> >If WizKids also gest the work in progress (Year of the Comet, Target:
> >Awakened Lands and possible others), then I wouldn't be surprised if they
> >publish these first, but I'm ready to bet a BABY that we will se a new
> >edition of SR within the next 2 years!
>
> Hmh - how good do the rulebooks sell atm? If they go well, there's IMO no
> need...

Testing out whether HTML still is present or not. Fortunately, should be back
to non-HTML by tonight. Lemme know what happens.

Anyway, logically...R3 would NOT herald a new edition. I believe GenCon
stated R3 was being released cuz, really...everybody agreed R2 sucked hairy,
infamed goat balls. Too damn mathy for its own good. Also...they really JUST
released SR3 in completeness. It would make NO sense financially to do SR4
*now*.

John

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
01/28/2001 10:02:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<BR>arclight@*********.de writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;If WizKids also
gest the work in progress (Year of the Comet, Target:
<BR>&gt;Awakened Lands and possible others), then I wouldn't be surprised if
they
<BR>&gt;publish these first, but I'm ready to bet a BABY that we will se a new
<BR>&gt;edition of SR within the next 2 years!
<BR>
<BR>Hmh &nbsp;- how good do the rulebooks sell atm? If they go well, there's IMO
no
<BR>need...</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Testing out whether HTML still is present or not. Fortunately, should be back
<BR>to non-HTML by tonight. Lemme know what happens.
<BR>
<BR>Anyway, logically...R3 would NOT herald a new edition. I believe GenCon
<BR>stated R3 was being released cuz, really...everybody agreed R2 sucked hairy,
<BR>infamed goat balls. Too damn mathy for its own good. Also...they really JUST
<BR>released SR3 in completeness. It would make NO sense financially to do SR4
<BR>*now*.
<BR>
<BR>John</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 13:15:02 2001
At 01:07 PM 1/28/01 EST, John wrote:
>
>
>Testing out whether HTML still is present or not. Fortunately, should be
back
>to non-HTML by tonight. Lemme know what happens.

It's still there, although it doesn't show up in my reply, which it
normally does.

BTW, I was upset at your continuos HTML emails when I asked you to stop
doing so; I figured it wasignorance on your part. You have my apology, as
it appears that it is AOL's high-handedness, rather than your fault.

Get a real ISP ;) (j/k)




>
>Anyway, logically...R3 would NOT herald a new edition. I believe GenCon
>stated R3 was being released cuz, really...everybody agreed R2 sucked
hairy,
>infamed goat balls. Too damn mathy for its own good. Also...they really
JUST
>released SR3 in completeness. It would make NO sense financially to do SR4
>*now*.
>
>John

I agree; I cant see anyone releasing a new edition just as 3rd Ed is
finally finished. However, there is the fact that Jordan Weisman, owner of
WizKids, was one of the originators of 1st Ed, and might like to make some
changes to get it back that way. Who knows?

Dave
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 13:15:07 2001
Lars said:
>> If WizKids also gest the work in progress (Year of the Comet,
Target: Awakened Lands and possible others), then I wouldn't be
surprised if they publish these first, but I'm ready to bet a BABY
that we will se a new edition of SR within the next 2 years!

Am I to understand you've got a BABY and are betting it? You are
so ON! I've wanted a BABY for years... :)

Augustus said:
> So, in order for them to make money off the Shadowrun line, they'd
either have to be able to sell enough Shadowrun stuff after they get
the rights (by selling books already produced) or else they need to
come up with their own stuff... and if they are going to come up
with their own stuff, it'd make sense to start with a clean slate and
come up with their own new edition.

I don't think WK would pop out a fourth edition. I mean, they
don't really need to... the only aquisitions that led to new editions
that I can think of are WotC with AD&D and Star Wars and LRG with
Earthdawn. All of those are games that had been in their current
edition for a LONG time. The two WotC properties had been recently
been churning out low-quality product, just spinning their wheels,
really. WotC was smart to make new editions; it said to their target
audience, "This is a new start for these properties: no more garbage
books, a fresh new look, and they're our inventions so we're
dedicated to them." You could argue Earthdawn was due a rules update
after what, six years (I don't know the dates here)? And Earthdawn
sales were bad when LRG bought it... them stamping their own name on
it with a new edition makes some kind of sense too. "Hey, it's a new
era, with this edition LRG and Earthdawn will be better!"
Shadowrun, however just came out with a new edition. It was
kicking butt in sales. It had good books planned, books people were
waiting (champing at the bit) for. There's no need for a new
edition, it'd just tick people off who bought SR3 and all its
supplements. There's no need for a fresh new start since SR has its
fan base, its selling well, and there's plenty of products planned
which hopefully will become WK properties as part of the SR license
(and hopefully they'll ge the rights to print older material; I'm no
lawyer so call me on these points if you know better).
Those are my thoughts.

Have my BABY ready and wrapped for mailing, baby ;)

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Augustus)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 13:50:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott W <see_scott_run@*****.com>

> There's no need for a fresh new start since SR has its
> fan base, its selling well, and there's plenty of products planned
> which hopefully will become WK properties as part of the SR license

BUT... its fasa that made the profit off that fan base by selling thier
books (SR3, MitS, Shadowrun Companion, Rigger 3, The Matrix)

I have no idea how many SR3 customers are out there... (finding out how many
copies of SR3 were sold might be a good answer one day for future reference)
but lets say there was 100,000 for ease of math... and that 100,000 all
bought an SR3 rulebook... and of that 100,000 they bought, collectivly, a
copy each on the average of the above books.

That'd be 200,000 items sold. Now, with WK, anything they make, they can
hope the base of 100,000 will buy them... even if its a 20% buy rate (as the
above math would figure... again its all speculation I have no real
numbers). So for every new item they do, they could hope to sell (at these
rates) 20,000 copies of each new book they come up with.

To hit the 200,000 book mark, they'd need 10 new items at that rate...

But, if they just up and convert the core books to a new edition and can get
the same fan base to buy them, they'd need only 6 items (SR4, SR4 Companion,
Rigger 4, Matrix 4th edition, MitS 4th edition) to sell 200,000 books.

And then... if they get the rights to all the books that are on the
backburner at fasa right now, they'd be able to convert them up to 4th
edition and still produce any profit needed off them.

I'm not saying I'd want a 4th edition... just saying that financially it
makes more sense for Wizkids to do a 4th edition than to carry on with
Fasa's 3rd edition.

Would it be "too soon"? I don't really think so...

1989: SR1
1992: SR2 (3 years elapsed)
1998: SR3 (6 years elapsed)

A new edition of Shadowrun wouldn't be released until either Gencon 2002 or
2003... that'd be a 4 or 5 year gap between editions... still not too bad...

Augustus
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 14:00:01 2001
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In a message dated 01/28/2001 2:07:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
shadowrun@********.net writes:


> Would it be "too soon"? I don't really think so...
>
> 1989: SR1
> 1992: SR2 (3 years elapsed)
> 1998: SR3 (6 years elapsed)
>
> A new edition of Shadowrun wouldn't be released until either Gencon 2002 or
> 2003... that'd be a 4 or 5 year gap between editions... still not too bad...
>

Yeah, but also add in the time it took to do the core books (discounting the
rigger books):
SR1: 1991
SR2: 1994 (3 years from core to finis of rules)
SR3: 2000 (2 years....or so...)

Guys, a LOT of people would feel seriously screwed. Thus, they would NOT buy
books. take that 20% buy rate...and chop it in half or more. They'd make a
LOSS, offhand.


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
01/28/2001 2:07:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<BR>shadowrun@********.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Would it be "too
soon"? &nbsp;I don't really think so...
<BR>
<BR>1989: SR1
<BR>1992: SR2 (3 years elapsed)
<BR>1998: SR3 (6 years elapsed)
<BR>
<BR>A new edition of Shadowrun wouldn't be released until either Gencon 2002 or
<BR>2003... that'd be a 4 or 5 year gap between editions... still not too bad...
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Yeah, but also add in the time it took to do the core books (discounting the
<BR>rigger books):
<BR>SR1: 1991
<BR>SR2: 1994 (3 years from core to finis of rules)
<BR>SR3: 2000 (2 years....or so...)
<BR>
<BR>Guys, a LOT of people would feel seriously screwed. Thus, they would NOT buy
<BR>books. take that 20% buy rate...and chop it in half or more. They'd make a
<BR>LOSS, offhand.
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Travis Heldibridle)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 14:10:01 2001
> If WizKids also gest the work in progress (Year of the Comet, Target:
Awakened Lands and possible others), then I wouldn't be surprised if they
publish these first, but I'm ready to bet a BABY that we will se a new
edition of SR within the next 2 years!
<From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>

I was thinking about this... after a full year of waiting for new rule books
this would be a VERY bad move. Having to wait for a completely new set of
rule books would be just enough to make me put SR down and go back to
running something more "stable". If the new company has any sense at all
they will see that 3rd Edition has been selling very well and all of the
hard work has been done. As long as they keep new plots and events in the
Shadowrun world consistant they could just publish new material for SR for
quite some time and make plenty of cash that way...

...damn and I just blew $200 on 5 new core books for each of my gamers as a
christmas present...

I was wondering if I, or someone, should try writing to WizKids, to explain
this view. I don't know that it would do any good at all, but at the same
time I'm kinda afraid to see something I care so much about die.


Just my thoughts,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Augustus)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 15:45:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
.From: DemonPenta@***.com
.
.Yeah, but also add in the time it took to do the core books (discounting
the
.rigger books):
.SR1: 1991
.SR2: 1994 (3 years from core to finis of rules)
.SR3: 2000 (2 years....or so...)
.
.Guys, a LOT of people would feel seriously screwed. Thus, they would NOT
buy
.books. take that 20% buy rate...and chop it in half or more. They'd make a
.LOSS, offhand.
.

Some might feel gyped and cheated if a new edition came out... some might
not. Look at the target market though...

Fasa came out with SR1... came up with a whole whack of new rules that
really upgraded the game nicely (VR1, Grimoire, Street Samurai Catalog,
Shadowtech, etc)

Then Fasa came out with SR2... alot of the first edition books were upgraded
to the new edition and some new books came out that really upgraded the game
nicely... people still bought it.

Then Fasa came out with SR3... for the most part, all they did was reprint
and upgrade the books from SR2 to the new system (or compile 2 or 3 books
into 1 "new" book)

And we all hear how Shadowrun was such a big money maker for Fasa and it was
their key product line... so all that does it paint us as a bunch of suckers
that'll buy anything with the Shadowrun Logo on it... even if we already own
it.

So, you wanna say people will feel screwed over and that... and sure, maybe
a few will... but based on our past and present performance, all we've done
is send the message to Fasa (and now to WizKids) that we'll buy whatever
they put out.

Unless WizKids is going to call us up or solicit our opinions in email, they
have no choice but to just base their production schedule for shadowrun (and
any possible future editions that might come) based on our buying habits.

Personally, I think that it'll be time for a new edition of Shadowrun in 3-4
years... One of the problems I see with SR3 is that it leaves little room
for further advancement... almost everything has been covered...
There are more guns than we could ever really need
Almost everything that is in the current storyline for magic has been
expanded on
There is enough cyberware to cover everything a street samurai could
want/need
There are new rules for Riggers
There is a new rulebook for Deckers

So, other than source material and adventures (which as everybody has
repeatedly said, doesn't sell well) that leaves the new owners of the game
very little room to advance the game with. The only thing I could really
forsee that wouldn't be just reinventing whats already there would be a
Companion 2 (adding/expanding more of the rules to the game... some new
insights, etc)

So the Wizkids will have to say "What good does it do us to continue on with
SR3 if we are probably going to do our own new edition in 2-4 years? Why
not just do a new edition now, reprint all the SR3 books to SR4, come up
with our own setting books and adventures?"

Either way, we'll have to wait and see... nobody here really knows this
company as well as they do the people at Fasa... the smart business move
would be to do a new edition of Shadowrun... but they might not have much
business sense for all we know. No matter how you look at it though... I
doubt they bought the rights to Shadowrun just so they could toss them on
the shelf and forget about it... so no matter what... if its a new edition
or just more 3rd edition stuff, there will still be a shadowrun game to come
back to.

Augustus
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 16:00:07 2001
From: Scott W <see_scott_run@*****.com>
> Lars said:
> >> If WizKids also gest the work in progress (Year of the Comet,
> Target: Awakened Lands and possible others), then I wouldn't be
> surprised if they publish these first, but I'm ready to bet a BABY
> that we will se a new edition of SR within the next 2 years!
>
> Am I to understand you've got a BABY and are betting it? You are
> so ON! I've wanted a BABY for years... :)

I meant: If I had a BABY I would be ready to bet it, but alas no I don't have any :-(

In fact I haven't even seen one up close, I don't think anybody in Denmark has.

> Have my BABY ready and wrapped for mailing, baby ;)

But then you can only take the bet if you have a BABY yourself, just in case (but i hope
not) you have to send it to me :-)

Lars
--
Santa is very jolly because he knows where all the bad girls live.
--
Lars Wagner Hansen l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (J. Keith Henry)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 16:05:01 2001
From: "Augustus" <shadowrun@********.net>
Subject: Re: 4th edition SR?


<SNIP big prose on the whys and hows of purchasing a product and why the
possibility of 4th Ed SR might exist>

Okay, I'm not going to completely rule out that possibility... however; and
this is a strong however... you aren't quite following the marketing factors
nor the marketing reasons for such things happening the way they have. In
fact, you've proved that you weren't paying complete attention to why
things, in this case the sales figures, were quite possibly the way they
were.

SR3 is the established-quo now, and is still in production. All that FASA
is going to be doing is selling off what is currently in their warehouse
(and possibly anything that is currently "in art/final editorial" but I
don't know for sure... none of us really do). Wizkids have the ability to
(or will have by April) of switching all things over to them (titles,
licensing, production rights, etc...). That means that all production of
SR3 softcovers from that point forward and anything new, even if it has
their name on it, is theirs.

And SR3 is still selling well (and I don't mean the supplements, I mean the
core rulebook). Well enough to make it less likely to move to a 4th
edition. I'll say it this way; perhaps it will make sense perhaps it won't.
We all have our desires to see things go in a direction we'd like to
personally see. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. In this case,
by the time you really sit down and start to let yourself think through the
feelings and first instincts... the probabilities begin to seriously
outweigh possibilities. In this case, the concept of SR4 is something that,
although will probably come one day... (all games evolve after all in
time)... it is not likely to come by merely switching production companies.

No, *IF* SR is to change, I personally predict it will be in directions that
are not being considered just yet by anything on this list or the DS Forums.
But that is *IF* it were to change.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")
Hoosier Hacker House (http://hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (J. Keith Henry)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 16:10:01 2001
From: "Travis Heldibridle" <antithesis@**********.com>
Subject: Re: 4th edition SR?


> I was wondering if I, or someone, should try writing to WizKids, to
explain
> this view. I don't know that it would do any good at all, but at the same
> time I'm kinda afraid to see something I care so much about die.

Travis, I would suggest that you wait a week or two to let WKG and FASA work
the final things out and establish what is happening when, how, etc...
before writing them. But then, by all means, I would suggest considering
writing a letter expressing your concerns as a fan of SR and how you hope to
see WKG carry the gameverse forward. Make the letter "snail mail", and have
your game group help you out, or perhaps write their own individual letters
as well. Then mail it collectively, showing your support.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")
Hoosier Hacker House (http://hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 16:20:01 2001
Von Augustus :

<snip>

>And we all hear how Shadowrun was such a big money maker for Fasa and it was
>their key product line... so all that does it paint us as a bunch of suckers
>that'll buy anything with the Shadowrun Logo on it... even if we already own
>it.

:))

>So, you wanna say people will feel screwed over and that... and sure, maybe
>a few will... but based on our past and present performance, all we've done
>is send the message to Fasa (and now to WizKids) that we'll buy whatever
>they put out.

I would hate it to see SR4 now, but it would be really interesting to see
if this is correct :)

<snip>

>Personally, I think that it'll be time for a new edition of Shadowrun in 3-4
>years... One of the problems I see with SR3 is that it leaves little room
>for further advancement... almost everything has been covered...
> There are more guns than we could ever really need
> Almost everything that is in the current storyline for magic has been
>expanded on
> There is enough cyberware to cover everything a street samurai could
>want/need
> There are new rules for Riggers
> There is a new rulebook for Deckers

IMO there's never enough. A Decker wants more tools, a Sam wants other guns
(I personally don't like "better" here), a rigger wants to tune his car.

>So, other than source material and adventures (which as everybody has
>repeatedly said, doesn't sell well) that leaves the new owners of the game
>very little room to advance the game with. The only thing I could really
>forsee that wouldn't be just reinventing whats already there would be a
>Companion 2 (adding/expanding more of the rules to the game... some new
>insights, etc)

IMO the SOTA books could sell really well...

>So the Wizkids will have to say "What good does it do us to continue on with
>SR3 if we are probably going to do our own new edition in 2-4 years? Why
>not just do a new edition now, reprint all the SR3 books to SR4, come up
>with our own setting books and adventures?"

I for my part cannot think of enough changes to make it to 4.0, so to say.
Not even 3.5 ...

Arclight
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 16:35:01 2001
> I meant: If I had a BABY I would be ready to bet it, but alas no I
don't have any :-(

Ah, I see. Nice, safe bet then :) Too bad... I could almost feel
its hardcover binding in my grubby little hands...

> But then you can only take the bet if you have a BABY yourself,
just in case (but i hope not) you have to send it to me :-)

Heh. A bet like that, you'd never know if I had one or not :)
Speaking of BABYs, one's going on eBay for the usual, ludicrous price
of $130+ USD. Ah, to dream.

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 22:45:01 2001
On Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:50:12 -0800 (PST) Scott W
<see_scott_run@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Heh. A bet like that, you'd never know if I had one or not :)
> Speaking of BABYs, one's going on eBay for the usual, ludicrous
> price
> of $130+ USD. Ah, to dream.

Hmm ... Do you think WizKids will bring back BABYs?

--
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Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: 4th Edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 22:45:06 2001
I'm not replying to anyone in particular, so nothing quoted.

My guess is that the determinant as to whether WizKids will put out
another edition is whether or not they are getting the rules system.
(WotC did not get rights to the rules system for Star Wars so regardless
of whether or not they wanted to, they couldn't simply pick up where WEG
left off or even produce something inherently compatable) As I understand
it, WizKids is getting everything. If they want to, they can continue
along with Shadowrun as if nothing happened.

Will they? Yup. Because unlike every other game I've heard mentioned on
this list as examples of games getting a new version, Shadowrun is alive
and kicking. The ones who should worry are the battletech fans. :)

--
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Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 4th Edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 23:05:01 2001
In a message dated 1/28/01 11:02:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, dghost@****.com
writes:

> Will they? Yup. Because unlike every other game I've heard mentioned on
> this list as examples of games getting a new version, Shadowrun is alive
> and kicking. The ones who should worry are the battletech fans. :)

Frighteningly, he's right. I was talking to my brother on the phone
tonight...mentioned the FASA shutdown and all, and he brought up something.
"Yeah, I know FASA said Shadowrun was doing fine, but what about Battletech?
WizKids might shut down BTech, or just restart it from 3025." Which is
another possibility...a _restart_ of Btech...no clans...just the great
houses. Which would *not* be all that bad, mind, as the Clans provoked a lot
of munchkinness, much like the IEs.
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Sun Jan 28 23:30:01 2001
>> Speaking of BABYs, one's going on eBay for the usual, ludicrous
price of $130+ USD. Ah, to dream.

> Hmm ... Do you think WizKids will bring back BABYs?

Ah, to dream.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Robert Manning)
Subject: 4th Edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 00:20:01 2001
Personally, I wouldn't mind going back to the Succession
Wars. Most campaign syle games I've seen and played in turn out a lot like
the recent computer games, with IS mechs and tech just being stepping
stones to Clan mechs augmented with IS tech like C3. I just don't suppose
I'd be lucky enough for them to re-acquire some of the old licensed mechs
that were phased out. My all time favorite remains the Phoenix Hawk (LAM),
even if it's mostly from being a Robotech fan.

At 10:19 PM 1/28/01, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/28/01 11:02:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, dghost@****.com
>writes:
>
>Frighteningly, he's right. I was talking to my brother on the phone
>tonight...mentioned the FASA shutdown and all, and he brought up something.
>"Yeah, I know FASA said Shadowrun was doing fine, but what about Battletech?
>WizKids might shut down BTech, or just restart it from 3025." Which is
>another possibility...a _restart_ of Btech...no clans...just the great
>houses. Which would *not* be all that bad, mind, as the Clans provoked a lot
>of munchkinness, much like the IEs.



archangel@*********.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12 (Decipher at http://www.geekcode.com/ )
GU d- s+: a22? C++ UL P L+ E(----) W+ N++ o? K? w(---) O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+
PGP? t-- 5 X+ R+ tv b++(+++) DI++++ D++ G e h(--) !r y-
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 04:50:01 2001
According to Travis Heldibridle, on Sun, 28 Jan 2001 the word on the
street was...

> I was thinking about this... after a full year of waiting for new rule books
> this would be a VERY bad move. Having to wait for a completely new set of
> rule books would be just enough to make me put SR down and go back to
> running something more "stable".

Isn't that over-reacting a little bit? You could just keep playing the
game with the SR3 books you already own...

> If the new company has any sense at all they will see that 3rd Edition
> has been selling very well and all of the hard work has been done. As
> long as they keep new plots and events in the Shadowrun world consistant
> they could just publish new material for SR for quite some time and make
> plenty of cash that way...

It looks like that to me, too. It was mentioned that SR was the only FASA
line that was really making money these days -- that cannot be just on
core rulebook sales; it probably was back in '98 and early '99 when there
was very little else for SR3 available, but by now, I doubt it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My ocular organs!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 09:55:03 2001
>From: "J. Keith Henry" <neojudas@******************.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: Re: 4th edition SR?
>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:25:49 -0500

>No, *IF* SR is to change, I personally predict it will be in directions
>that
>are not being considered just yet by anything on this list or the DS
>Forums.
>But that is *IF* it were to change.
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")
>Hoosier Hacker House (http://hoosierhackerhouse.com/)

Why not share those changes Keith? Since no one else has seemed to think of
these changes yet, I'd like to hear them?

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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 10:00:01 2001
>From: Arclight <arclight@*********.de>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: 4th edition SR?
>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:34:48 +0100
>Von Augustus :
>
><snip>
>
>>And we all hear how Shadowrun was such a big money maker for Fasa and it
>>was
>>their key product line... so all that does it paint us as a bunch of
>>suckers
>>that'll buy anything with the Shadowrun Logo on it... even if we already
>>own
>>it.
>
>:))
>
>>So, you wanna say people will feel screwed over and that... and sure,
>>maybe
>>a few will... but based on our past and present performance, all we've
>>done
>>is send the message to Fasa (and now to WizKids) that we'll buy whatever
>>they put out.

What's so funny, is this is the best reason why people rush to the defense
of SR3, and tear new nether region orificies for the folks who think
otherwise. FASA force feeds the SR crowd in general exactly what they want
to make, and if they don't like it, the crowd buys the books anyway. And
many of you like to call Engine a close-minded ******? That's pretty funny.
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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (DV8)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 13:10:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brother Justice" <brother_justice@*******.com>
> Why not share those changes Keith? Since no one else has seemed to think
of
> these changes yet, I'd like to hear them?

Why yes, Keith. Why don't you share your thoughts on this subject with us? I
am kind of interested as to what you think would be feasable changes.

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (J. Keith Henry)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 14:40:01 2001
From: "DV8" <dv8@***.nl>
Subject: Re: 4th edition SR?


> > Why not share those changes Keith? Since no one else has seemed to think
> of
> > these changes yet, I'd like to hear them?
>
> Why yes, Keith. Why don't you share your thoughts on this subject with us?
I
> am kind of interested as to what you think would be feasable changes.

I'll truncate this down. As I've said to BJ in external/non-list email... I
do not know of them myself. As I mentioned in the previous email, "any
form" I believe was my word choice (or something I intended to be understood
that way). That includes from me or mine own ideas. I'm going to call it
instinct, and nothing more because there isn't anything else I can readily
identify myself.

Besides, even *if* I did know more, I would A) not mention it as I would
probably not care to do so at this point in time with everything else
happening in my personal and professional life and B) not be allowed to
mention it, as were it information of that scale, I'm sure I'd be requested
to not do so. This is a case where neither consideration is even possible,
as I don't know more either.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")
Hoosier Hacker House (http://hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (DV8)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 14:55:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Keith Henry" <neojudas@******************.com>
> > Why yes, Keith. Why don't you share your thoughts on this subject with
us?
> I
> > am kind of interested as to what you think would be feasable changes.
>
> I'll truncate this down. As I've said to BJ in external/non-list email...
I
> do not know of them myself. As I mentioned in the previous email, "any
> form" I believe was my word choice (or something I intended to be
understood
> that way). That includes from me or mine own ideas. I'm going to call it
> instinct, and nothing more because there isn't anything else I can readily
> identify myself.
>
> Besides, even *if* I did know more, I would A) not mention it as I would
> probably not care to do so at this point in time with everything else
> happening in my personal and professional life and B) not be allowed to
> mention it, as were it information of that scale, I'm sure I'd be
requested
> to not do so. This is a case where neither consideration is even
possible,
> as I don't know more either.

/me falls over laughing his ass off.

Keith, you should be so defensive dude..._my_ words of choice were "as to
what you think would be feasable changes". I don't care if you have
"official" information or not...I don't care that you have an NDA to
consider...I just want to know what you _think_ might be feasable changes.

We all know that you are closer to the FASA bigwigs...but don't keep going
around rubbing everyone's noses in it. If you don't want to answer my
question, or if you don't have your thoughts on the subject in order, then
simply say so instead of going off on a rant trying to explain some imagined
insinuation.

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 17:55:01 2001
On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:59:31 -0500 "J. Keith Henry"
<SNIP>
> I'll truncate this down. As I've said to BJ in external/non-list
> email... I
> do not know of them myself.
<SNIP>

Ya know ... Brother Justice was not my first thought when I read that ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 20:15:03 2001
>From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: 4th edition SR?
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:59:48 -0600
>On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:59:31 -0500 "J. Keith Henry"
><SNIP>
> > I'll truncate this down. As I've said to BJ in external/non-list
> > email... I
> > do not know of them myself.
><SNIP>
>
>Ya know ... Brother Justice was not my first thought when I read that ...
>
>--
>D. Ghost
>Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
>- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

Heh. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that one before.
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Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 21:00:01 2001
On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:29:24 -0500 "Brother Justice"
<brother_justice@*******.com> writes:
> >From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
> >Ya know ... Brother Justice was not my first thought when I read
> that ...
> >
> >--
> >D. Ghost
> >Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
> >- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
>
> Heh. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that one before.

Why not?
You don't trust us?
What are you trying to say?
This is all about my satyr, isn't it?

:-p

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 4th edition SR?
Date: Mon Jan 29 21:00:03 2001
On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:15:24 -0500 "Brother Justice"
<brother_justice@*******.com> writes:
> What's so funny, is this is the best reason why people rush to the
> defense
> of SR3, and tear new nether region orificies for the folks who think
>
> otherwise. FASA force feeds the SR crowd in general exactly what
> they want
> to make, and if they don't like it, the crowd buys the books anyway.
> And
> many of you like to call Engine a close-minded ******? That's pretty
> funny.

I prefer SR3 to SR1 &2. I believe a lot of the changes were fan-driven,
and that is why it was better recieved. If you want to think it's because
blind-faith leads us to take what is forced on us, that's your choice.
I don't see how that explains the sales of the new stuff being BETTER
than the old stuff though.
If you don't like stuff, that's fine, but saying that people that DO like
it only defend it because they're loyal to FASA....
I just don't see it.


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