Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject:	7s
Date:	Sun, 08 Aug 1999 13:41:29 -0500

Message no. 1 Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
TN of 6.

I think I have a fix, but would like feedback.

If the TN of a test is 7-12, the character attempting the test uses one
less die. If the TN is 13-18, two less die. And so on.

So, a character with a skill of 5, vs a TN of 7, rolls 4 dice. If the TN
were 13, the character would roll 3 dice.

The ammount of skill dice available may not be reduced to less than 1.

If a character defaults from an attribute, the number of dice are reduced
in the same fashion if the TN is 7+. However, the number of dice rolled
may be reduced to 0 (in which case the test cannot be attempted).

Comments please.

-Graht
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+b++ DI++++
D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
http://home.att.net/~Graht
"Earn what you have been given."

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	7s
Date:	Sun, 8 Aug 1999 14:55:05 -0500

Message no. 2 > Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
> TN of 6.

Yeah; I'm not certain I'd classify it as a problem, but I am familiar with
the situation.

> If the TN of a test is 7-12, the character attempting the test uses one
> less die. If the TN is 13-18, two less die. And so on.

I don't think I like this one, David. I'd be fascinated to hear your
reasoning on this one, since I don't see this so much as a fix than a method
of screwing players, which I'm adamantly against, both as a player and a GM.

So show me that I'm wrong here.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject:	7s
Date:	Sun, 08 Aug 1999 13:35:12 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 3 On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 13:41:29 -0500, Graht wrote:

>Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
>TN of 6.
>
>I think I have a fix, but would like feedback.
>
>If the TN of a test is 7-12, the character attempting the test uses one
>less die. If the TN is 13-18, two less die. And so on.
>
>So, a character with a skill of 5, vs a TN of 7, rolls 4 dice. If the TN
>were 13, the character would roll 3 dice.
>
>The ammount of skill dice available may not be reduced to less than 1.
>
>If a character defaults from an attribute, the number of dice are reduced
>in the same fashion if the TN is 7+. However, the number of dice rolled
>may be reduced to 0 (in which case the test cannot be attempted).

The problem I see, is that this makes all tests considerably harder to accomplish if the
TN is
above 6.

I don't have a big problem with the 7 being the same as a 6...

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	7s
Date:	Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:44:31 EDT

Message no. 4 In a message dated 8/8/99 4:36:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
oliver@*********.com writes:

> I don't have a big problem with the 7 being the same as a 6...

You could always get a nice little die roller pogram and keep it on a laptop
on the table. Roll a seven-sided die. That's what the whole Rule of Six is
trying to accomplish, the ability to not need more than one kind of dice, but
with the 7 you have a hiccup in the system. (And with 13, and with 19, and
with 25, ect.)

-Twist

From:	Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	7s
Date:	Sun, 08 Aug 1999 18:00:11 -0300

Message no. 5 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Graht."
] Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
] TN of 6.
]
] I think I have a fix, but would like feedback.
]
] If the TN of a test is 7-12, the character attempting the test uses one
] less die. If the TN is 13-18, two less die. And so on.
]
] So, a character with a skill of 5, vs a TN of 7, rolls 4 dice. If the TN
] were 13, the character would roll 3 dice.
]
] The ammount of skill dice available may not be reduced to less than 1.
]
] If a character defaults from an attribute, the number of dice are reduced
] in the same fashion if the TN is 7+. However, the number of dice rolled
] may be reduced to 0 (in which case the test cannot be attempted).

No offence meant, but I don't care for that much...TN seven and up is
bad enough, why take away dice? I use a simple, easy-to-clean,
won't-harm-the-ladybugs House Rule. If the TN is seven, then roll as
normal. If the result is 2-6, peachy. If it's a one, roll again. If
you get 1-3, it's a six, failure, if it's 4-6, it's a seven, success.
It's not as much trouble as it sounds, since it only comes into play if
you roll a one after the initial six.

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION

From:	Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject:	7s
Date:	Sun, 8 Aug 1999 17:16:53 -0400

Message no. 6 >I don't think I like this one, David. I'd be fascinated to hear your
>reasoning on this one, since I don't see this so much as a fix than a
method
>of screwing players, which I'm adamantly against, both as a player and a
GM.
>
>So show me that I'm wrong here.

Nah, not wrong.
But IMO that's too much like work. ;-)

We have used a simple fix to this in our games for about 5 years now.
The players complained a little a first, but after using it for a while,
they decided it's OK.

Going along with the "Heightened Lethality" options from SR2, we decied that
TN's of 7 no longer exist (or 13's or 19, etc.)
For players, if the modifed TN comes to a 7, it is made an 8.
For the GM, if the modified Tn is a 7, it is now a 6.

Yes, It made things a little more challenging at first, but ultimately it
made comabt faster, and more exciting, as now there were no extra dice to
roll (ala your suggestion) and rolling that higher TN was now a real
accomplishment!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."

From:	stefan casanova@***.passagen.se
Subject:	7s
Date:	Mon, 9 Aug 1999 00:11:04 +0000

Message no. 7 > Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
> TN of 6.
>
> I think I have a fix, but would like feedback.
>
> If the TN of a test is 7-12, the character attempting the test uses one
> less die. If the TN is 13-18, two less die. And so on.
>
> So, a character with a skill of 5, vs a TN of 7, rolls 4 dice. If the TN
> were 13, the character would roll 3 dice.
>
> The ammount of skill dice available may not be reduced to less than 1.
>
> If a character defaults from an attribute, the number of dice are reduced
> in the same fashion if the TN is 7+. However, the number of dice rolled
> may be reduced to 0 (in which case the test cannot be attempted).
>
> Comments please.

sounds awfully complex for such a simple problem. How about :

you roll the d6 .. if it comes up a 6 you roll again but on this roll
you subtract one. So you have to roll a 2 for it to become a 7. If
you roll a six again you naturally keep on rolling.

.stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .................... http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/ ...
... ICQ ................................................... 793828 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	7s
Date:	Sun, 8 Aug 1999 18:17:12 EDT

Message no. 8 when I thought of this a while back (a few years) I figured it this way;
when you roll a 6, reroll and add the new die to 5, that means the roll would
be 6-10
another 6, add the new die to 10, etc.

then I figured, why bother I never hit too many T#'s of 7 anyway :-)

From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	7s
Date:	Sun, 8 Aug 1999 19:51:52 EDT

Message no. 9 In a message dated 8/8/99 12:40:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net writes:

> I think I have a fix, but would like feedback.
>
> If the TN of a test is 7-12, the character attempting the test uses one
> less die. If the TN is 13-18, two less die. And so on.
>
> So, a character with a skill of 5, vs a TN of 7, rolls 4 dice. If the TN
> were 13, the character would roll 3 dice.
>
> The ammount of skill dice available may not be reduced to less than 1.
>
> If a character defaults from an attribute, the number of dice are reduced
> in the same fashion if the TN is 7+. However, the number of dice rolled
> may be reduced to 0 (in which case the test cannot be attempted).
>
> Comments please.

Looks Feasable, and somewhat believable But on the other hand your
automatically reducing their chances for even ONE success as well by reducing
the number of dice they need to throw. And that reduction applies for the
whole range of 7-12, 13+ as well, not just 7 and 13.

Have you actually playtested this one yet?

From:	MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject:	7s
Date:	Mon, 9 Aug 1999 03:03:35 -0400

Message no. 10 Once upon a time, Graht wrote;

>Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
>TN of 6.
>
>I think I have a fix, but would like feedback.
<snip>
>Comments please.

I've always considered 7's and such as a gimme to alleviate some of
the hardships of dealing with the leaps of difficulties when using
modifiers on a d6 scale. Limit the effectiveness of minimal success (1
success) since that is more likely your real troublemaker. I'd rather
play this as is.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject:	7s
Date:	Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:34:30 -0400

Message no. 11 > Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
> TN of 6.

See question Q1 of the ShadowFAQ:

http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq/Shad2FAQ.html#Q1

Wordman

From:	Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject:	7s
Date:	Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:40:38 +700

Message no. 12 >> Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a

>> TN of 6.
>
>See question Q1 of the ShadowFAQ:
>
>http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq/Shad2FAQ.html#Q1

Speaking of which are there any plans to make:
http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq/Shad3FAQ.html
current?

From:	Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject:	7s
Date:	Mon, 09 Aug 1999 18:27:45 -0500

Message no. 13 MC23 wrote:
/Once upon a time, Graht wrote;
/
/>Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
/>TN of 6.
/>
/>I think I have a fix, but would like feedback.
/<snip>
/>Comments please.
/
/ I've always considered 7's and such as a gimme to alleviate some of
/the hardships of dealing with the leaps of difficulties when using
/modifiers on a d6 scale.

And would you believe I never thought of that before? Thanks MC :)

-Graht
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+b++ DI++++
D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
http://home.att.net/~Graht
"I don't know what I don't know."

From:	Scott Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject:	7s
Date:	Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:05:18 -0400

Message no. 14 In a message from Graht <Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net>
dated Sun, 08 Aug 1999 13:41:29 -0500, my mailer made me see:

-> Everybody should be familiar with this problem: a TN of 7 is the same as a
-> TN of 6.
->
-> I think I have a fix, but would like feedback.
->
-> If the TN of a test is 7-12, the character attempting the test uses one
-> less die. If the TN is 13-18, two less die. And so on.
->
-> So, a character with a skill of 5, vs a TN of 7, rolls 4 dice. If the TN
-> were 13, the character would roll 3 dice.
->
-> The ammount of skill dice available may not be reduced to less than 1.
->
-> If a character defaults from an attribute, the number of dice are reduced
-> in the same fashion if the TN is 7+. However, the number of dice rolled
-> may be reduced to 0 (in which case the test cannot be attempted).
->
-> Comments please.
->
-> -Graht
-> --
-> ShadowRN GridSec
-> The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
-> Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
-> w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+b++ DI++++
-> D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
-> http://home.att.net/~Graht
-> "Earn what you have been given."
->

My comment: Don't mess with the system.

Personally, I think Shadowrun is flawed in that it uses d6 versus something like d10 or
d100 but I can understand the reasons. The main reason for the flaw is the great
difference in percentages that changing a target number by 1 yields.

However, I digress.

A TN of 7 is not the same as a TN of 6 if there are modifications, as the FAQ points out.

Time for an example of why not to do this.

With the curent rules, a character with skill 5 will have a test against TN 5, TN 11 and
TN 17. For at least one success against each of those target numberss the chances are:
86.8313%, 24.8581% and 4.54469%.

Using your example as a template, if instead we took away one die for each reduction of 6
of the target number (big assumption that is what you mean since taking away dice without
changing target number is WRONG) the example would be a character with skill 5 against TN
5, skill 4 against TN 5 and skill 3 against TN 5. These chances are: 86.8313%, 80.2469%
and 70.3704%.

Therefore, in attempting to fix the system, this technique makes making successes much
easier to acquire! One would assume this is not the desired effect.

--Scott

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer