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Message no. 1
From: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject: APDS
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 22:19:56 CET
APDS works like this: The actual round is sub-calibre with a sabot around it so
that it fits in the barrel. When fired, the sabot falls away in flight, before
it hits the target. The effect is that a Force/Mass ratio is changed, and gets
nasty if the round is made of a material denser than the average bullet (like
Tungsten of Depleted Uranium). So, no, it doesn't act like a two-stage carrier
that fires a round when it hits the armor. It's just a smaller-than-usual
bullet fired with the usual amount of force.

J Roberson
Message no. 2
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: APDS
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 13:37:05 -0500
I'd just as soon leave APDS alone, but in thinking about all these ammo
options Todd and I have come up, I just thought that thway APDS works
could be expressed better by bypassing ballistic armor entirely. Let me
describe the real-life round I'm basing my suppositions on.

Steyr, in developing an assault rifle for the 21st century, also created a
new type of round. It is a 5.56mm saboted bullet. The bullet itself resembles
a small, pointed nail encased in four plastic sabots. It is made of really
strong material (either hardened steel or tungsten, I'm sure) and has a
very sharp point. Now, it delivers less force, but it uses less force to
penetrate armor.

What I see is a high-speed impaling attack on ballistic armor, which is a
weave/mesh of hig-tek fiber that usually spreads the kinetic energy of a
bullet or other blunt attack around a wider area. This bullet will poke straightbetween
the weave, bypassing it entirely. However, it'll have a more difficult
time penetrating solid object, like the armor plates that make up impact armor.
That's why I think APDS should be a normal attack vs Impact armor. It'll
become even deadlier for lower forms of armor (like Clothing 3/0) but will give
thos corp sec guards a better chance (Heavy Sec 7/5).

I would replace the 1/2 armor with a regular AP round, possibly lowering the
Wound Level by one.

J Roberson
Message no. 3
From: Justin Kim <jlkim%ucsd.edu@****.BITNET>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 13:05:09 -0700
>Steyr, in developing an assault rifle for the 21st century, also created a
>new type of round. It is a 5.56mm saboted bullet. The bullet itself resembles
>a small, pointed nail encased in four plastic sabots. It is made of really
>strong material (either hardened steel or tungsten, I'm sure) and has a
>very sharp point. Now, it delivers less force, but it uses less force to
>penetrate armor.
>
>What I see is a high-speed impaling attack on ballistic armor, which is a
>weave/mesh of hig-tek fiber that usually spreads the kinetic energy of a
>bullet or other blunt attack around a wider area. This bullet will poke
>straight
>between the weave, bypassing it entirely. However, it'll have a more difficult
>time penetrating solid object, like the armor plates that make up impact armor.

>That's why I think APDS should be a normal attack vs Impact armor. It'll
>become even deadlier for lower forms of armor (like Clothing 3/0) but will give

>thos corp sec guards a better chance (Heavy Sec 7/5).
[stuff edited]
>
>J Roberson

J,
I'm not a firearms expert, but it would seem to me that the round
you are describing is more of a flechette than a "regular" bullet. I don't
have my copy of the rules on me, but it would seem that in the flechette
rules, your concerns are adequately addressed.

Couldn't we just say that the APDS is like a flechette in its
general construction (I.e. saboted), but differs slightly in other ways
which gives it its better performance against armor?

Justin


--------
Justin Kim jlkim@****.edu
Science Applications International Corporation Defense Analyst
Message no. 4
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: APDS
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 16:08:53 -0700
Nightfox asked:

>> Ok APDS ammo (SRII pg 277 - I don't own SSCII)
>>APDS ammo halves the Ballistic Armor Rating and Barrier Ratings (when firing
>>through, only). Vehicle armor reduces the power of APDS ammo by one-half its
>>rating (round down) and reduces the Damage level by one level.

>>Ok - I don't get the Vehicle armor part

Against Vehicle armor reduce the power in half (round down) and reduce the
Damage level by one. The Barrier Rating rule only counts for firing through
barriers (like walls, doors, tables) but not vehicle armor.

See Ya in Shadows, "I can count the number of days I've worked
Jason J Carter since graduation on one hand." - ME!
The Nightstalker Carter@***.EDU
Message no. 5
From: Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK>
Subject: APDS
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 15:52:20 +0100
I mentioned this a while ago on the list, it says when you fire APDS through
barriers the power of the APDS firing weapon is halved.
Hardened armour is treated like a barrier, thats what it says in the black book
so against hardened armour<vehicle, critter, etc> an ares preditor 9m does
<delete that does> say agianst an armour of 5 will bounce as the armour value
is doubled.
As far as I can tell APDS is ment to be a personal body armour piecing ammo, not
the kind of ammo to punch through tank armour!!!

Cinder.
Message no. 6
From: Michael Orion Jackson <moj0001@****.ACS.UNT.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:25:47 -0500
On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Stuart Marsh wrote:

> As far as I can tell APDS is ment to be a personal body armour piecing ammo, not
> the kind of ammo to punch through tank armour!!!
>
> Cinder.
depends on what caliber APDS you are talking about, hehehehe...

Conceptually, a pistol to LMG class APDS round is probably some
derivation of the KTW round, i.e. a hard, pointed bullet with some sort
of coating. This bullet was originally developed by police in the 60s (?)
to punch through car bodies (not engines, just bodies) and other barriers.
Later a side benifit was discovered: it cut through Kevlar-mix body armor
like a hot knife through cheese.
APDS of .50 caliber and above, though, I see as being a designed to go
after a different cat altogether: military armored targets. These are
rounds that have a much more noticible (needle-like) sub-caliber
appearance. They are long, thin, and usually made out of Wolfram
(Tungsten) or Depleted Uranium. Their small frontal cross-sectional
area, high velocity, and high mass enable them to puncture metallic slab
and/or Chobham. Examples of this would be the American .50cal SLAP
(Saboted-Light-Armor-Piercing) that has been rumored to take out a Soviet
BMP and the American APFSDSDU 120mm tank round
(ArmorPiercingFinStabilizedDiscardingSabotDepletedUranium) that is un
surpassed in terms of lethality.

IN shadowrun terms, I think this means that vehicular rounds
(rotary asssault cannon,etc.) would ignore the detrimental effects of
hardened armor. In other words, they would not be reduced a damage level
automatically. APDS from a Panther or HMG would be in the gray area
between vehicular/small-arms APDS effects.

Peace.
__________________________________________________________________________
|Michael Orion Jackson |"A college student is a mechanism for |
|moj0001@****.acs.unt.edu |converting caffeine into finished |
|>Flaming is immature.< |homework" -unknown, but perceptive author |
__________________________________________________________________________
Message no. 7
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:39:58 +0100
On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Stuart Marsh wrote:

> I mentioned this a while ago on the list, it says when you fire APDS through
> barriers the power of the APDS firing weapon is halved.
Not so against normal barriers the rating of the *barrier* is halved
when firing through, just like body armour (check the APDS description).

What bothers me is what happens to APDS versus Vehicle Armour, in the
APDS description is says that teh power of teh round is reduced by half
the rating of the *vehicle* armour. But is this reduction in addition to
the normal reduction?

IE Does a 9M APDS round do 8L damage to a vehicle with a Body:3 and
Armour:2 (Power of 9 reduced by Half the Armour Rating and down one stage
as versus a vehicle)?

OR does the 9M APDS round do 3L? (Power of 9 reduced by half the Armour
Rating (-1), then reduced like a normal round by the Body of the vehicle
(-3) and the Armour Rating of the Vehicle (-2)=3)?

Or does the armour rating of teh car's Body get halved as per normal
versus APDS?

If its the first suggestion then it seems APDS are unbelievably effective
versus hardened armour (in fact it would seem teh Vehicle armour would
*help* it penetrate the Body!!!!!!!!!!)

If its the second suggestion then it implies that APDS are worse against
Hardened armour (as I first believed). But wouldn't it have just been
easier to say:

"Against Vehicle Armour the Power of the weapon is reduced by 1.5 (round
down) the rating of the Vehicle armour, and also by the *full* rating of
the vehicle's Body."

This seems okay to me as against unarmoured vehicles the power of the
round would be reduced by HALF teh Body rating; but if against Vehicle
Armour the Hardened bit is hit first and negates the penetration
effectiveness of the APDS round -thus the Body rating is *not* halved.

Thus against Critters and Gel packs the armour has 1.5 times it's normal
rating.

But this si my interpretation, I just wish we could get a clarification
from FASA, especially as we don't even know if APDS are supposed to be
effective against Hardened armour or worse than normal rounds.



The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 8
From: Dwayne MacKinnon <910252m@******.ACADIAU.CA>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 15:10:02 -0300
Well,
I could be wrong, (it's been known to happen :) but as I recall the
way barriers (which is what hardened armor is) works like this:

Double the power of the weapon.

Double the rating of the armor.

If the adjusted power is not >= the adjusted armor, the attack has no
effect.

If = to < 1.5 the armor, the armor is degraded by one, and damage is
(possibly) done to the vehicle.

If the poewr is > 1.5 the adjusted armor, then a big hole is supposed to
get torn in the barrier. I can't remember how that translates to vehicles, or
how the armor degrades at that point.

Now comes hte tricky part: *IF* damage is done, the vehicle resists as
follows: you subtract the value of the armor and the vehicle's body from
the weapon's power before making the role.

The role itself uses the vehicle's body PLUS one-half the vehicle's armor
in dice.

So on your typical Banshee, with an armor rating of 18 (when adjusted for
Shadowrun II) you need a Panther Cannon just to scratch the thing.
And then you're going to have about 15 dice (9 for the armor, not sure
what body a Banshee has) rolling against a 2 for successes. Not fun,
eh chummers?

Now we come to APDS. It treats the armor as 1/2 its rating. Which means
in my above example you'd only need a Browning Maxpower (damage code 9M)
to POSSIBLY (if you were damn lucky) harm the thing. You'd also only have
about 11 dice resisting the damage. Still not good, but...

2 Notes: Burst fire power-uppages have no effect when cponsidering if a
weapon can get through hardened armor/barriers.

Laos, the damage level is staged down one (from M to L, for example.)
Light weapons can't touch a vehicle that has any armor, no matter
what power it has.


DMK

--
Dwayne MacKinnon My opinions are my own, never
910252m@******.acadiau.ca those of my employer.
Message no. 9
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 00:32:33 GMT
> Conceptually, a pistol to LMG class APDS round is probably some
> derivation of the KTW round, i.e. a hard, pointed bullet with some sort
> of coating. This bullet was originally developed by police in the 60s (?)
> to punch through car bodies (not engines, just bodies) and other barriers.
> Later a side benifit was discovered: it cut through Kevlar-mix body armor
> like a hot knife through cheese.

I can get "true" DS ammo for my pistol. It's just a lead-cored jacketed
5.56mm rifle bullet in a .45-calibre plastic sabot, to achieve about
1,800 feet per second muzzle velocity while keeping a sensible chamber
pressure. I certainly can't afford to try it :-)

But there's no reason I couldn't a) crank the chamber pressure and muzzle
velocity right up - a .44 Magnum should put out 2,700fps easily - and b)
use a low-aspect-ratio tungsten or DU penetrator instead of a normal
sub-calibre bullet.

Rifle-class AP ammo also tends to have a core of hardened steel or tungsten
alloy, to defeat light armour (e.g APCs).

> APDS of .50 caliber and above, though, I see as being a designed to go
> after a different cat altogether: military armored targets. These are
> rounds that have a much more noticible (needle-like) sub-caliber
> appearance. They are long, thin, and usually made out of Wolfram
> (Tungsten) or Depleted Uranium. Their small frontal cross-sectional
> area, high velocity, and high mass enable them to puncture metallic slab
> and/or Chobham. Examples of this would be the American .50cal SLAP
> (Saboted-Light-Armor-Piercing) that has been rumored to take out a Soviet
> BMP

BMPs can be taken out by ordinary 7.62mm NATO from a flank shot, I am
reliably informed. Ten or twenty rounds into the side will do the job.
SLAP is a sure-fire way to do it. Remember a BMP is a 13-ton APC and very
lightly protected. From the rear a M-16 firing tracer can often penetrate
and ignite the fuel tanks in the rear doors. (Of course getting a clear shot
at the rear is the hard part).

> and the American APFSDSDU 120mm tank round
> (ArmorPiercingFinStabilizedDiscardingSabotDepletedUranium) that is un
> surpassed in terms of lethality.

Not just American, we have our own... :-)

> IN shadowrun terms, I think this means that vehicular rounds
> (rotary asssault cannon,etc.) would ignore the detrimental effects of
> hardened armor. In other words, they would not be reduced a damage level
> automatically. APDS from a Panther or HMG would be in the gray area
> between vehicular/small-arms APDS effects.

I just wing it when vehicles are involved. I know what *should* happen and
I know what improbable luck could do. APDS from a HMG should, realistically,
inflict noticeable to severe damage on anything listed in the Shadowrun rules.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 00:07:48 GMT
> I mentioned this a while ago on the list, it says when you fire APDS through
> barriers the power of the APDS firing weapon is halved.
>Hardened armour is treated like a barrier, thats what it says in the black book
> so against hardened armour<vehicle, critter, etc> an ares preditor 9m does
> <delete that does> say agianst an armour of 5 will bounce as the armour value
> is doubled.
> As far as I can tell APDS is ment to be a personal body armour piecing ammo, not
> the kind of ammo to punch through tank armour!!!

Sadly untrue. APDS is better against *any* armour. The reason it's like hen's
teeth in my game is that a medium MG with APDS can take down a Banshee.
(Realistic: a 7.62mm weapon firing AP will kill a BTR or BMP-class APC easily
these days, and worry many other AFVs if you shoot at the sides or rear)

There are no tanks listed in Shadowrun. The Banshee is a light scout vehicle.
The nearest equivalent would be somewhere between an AH-64 Apache and a
M-2 Bradley. At that, it's a tough target. One Banshee should be hard for
players to kill, needing massive Karma and/or careful planning.

But there is no real-world reason why APDS would be less effective against
vehicle armour than normal ammo. Completely the reverse, in fact.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:47:54 -0400
Paul wrote:
> In message <199610171645.MAA19487@*****.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>, James
> Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA> writes
> >Whoa! Which universe do *you* call home? Aluminum foil, sure. Aluminum
> >*armour*? Good luck. It is stated that the Barret uses APDS rounds -
> >lousy at penetrating hard targets like metals...
>
> APDS. "Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot". Armour was, last time I
> looked, usually made of steel or aluminium, at least all the tanks and
> APCs I know are.

For tanks and APCs, sure. How many sams/execs do you normally see in your
campaigns who normally walk around in steel/aluminum armour?
The sniper rifle doesn't use APDS to shoot people through tanks -
it uses APDS to shoot people through kevlar and other "soft" armours.

James

--
As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
"Maybe I should get a life?"
jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste
Message no. 12
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:28:30 +0100
In message <199610181647.MAA01806@*****.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>, James
Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA> writes
>Paul wrote:
>> APDS. "Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot". Armour was, last time I
>> looked, usually made of steel or aluminium, at least all the tanks and
>> APCs I know are.
>
>For tanks and APCs, sure. How many sams/execs do you normally see in your
>campaigns who normally walk around in steel/aluminum armour?
>The sniper rifle doesn't use APDS to shoot people through tanks -
>it uses APDS to shoot people through kevlar and other "soft" armours.

And the principle remains the same. A hard, dense, high-aspect-ratio
penetrator in a lightweight sabot, thus a large-bore lightweight
projectile for interior ballistics (hence mongo muzzle velocity) and a
small-bore heavy projectile for superb external ballistics and very high
energy density on target. It penetrates armour really well, _any_
armour: whether soft Kevlar, rigid inserts, or the car they were hiding
behind.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 13
From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:57:35 -0500
Just for clarity's sake, the round the Barret M121 fires is not,
technically APDS. It is just treated as such, due to its immense size and
kinetic potential. Have you ever fired a modern day Barret (a model 81 or
82)? I have. Very impressive, to say the least..... Have you ever held a
.50 BMG bullet ini your hand (not the cartridge, the bullet)? Hefty
thing. Now imagine it slamming into someone at several thousand feet per
second. Something that heavy and traveling that fast need not be
specially designed to peirce armor, it blows through just about anything
inately.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Michael Orion Jackson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TAMS Class of 1996/UT Class of 199?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~2112 Guadalupe, Rm. 502; Austin, Tx 78705 (The Goodall-Wooten)~~~~~~~
"Goddamn creatures of the night, they never learn." ~Gideon, _The Crow_

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, James Ojaste wrote:

> Paul wrote:
> > In message <199610171645.MAA19487@*****.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>, James
> > Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA> writes
> > >Whoa! Which universe do *you* call home? Aluminum foil, sure. Aluminum
> > >*armour*? Good luck. It is stated that the Barret uses APDS rounds -
> > >lousy at penetrating hard targets like metals...
> >
> > APDS. "Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot". Armour was, last time I
> > looked, usually made of steel or aluminium, at least all the tanks and
> > APCs I know are.
>
> For tanks and APCs, sure. How many sams/execs do you normally see in your
> campaigns who normally walk around in steel/aluminum armour?
> The sniper rifle doesn't use APDS to shoot people through tanks -
> it uses APDS to shoot people through kevlar and other "soft" armours.
>
> James
>
> --
> As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
> the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
> "Maybe I should get a life?"
> jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste
>
Message no. 14
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:08:07 +1000
> Just for clarity's sake, the round the Barret M121 fires is not,
> technically APDS. It is just treated as such, due to its immense size and
> kinetic potential. Have you ever fired a modern day Barret (a model 81 or
> 82)? I have. Very impressive, to say the least..... Have you ever held a
> .50 BMG bullet ini your hand (not the cartridge, the bullet)? Hefty
> thing. Now imagine it slamming into someone at several thousand feet per
> second. Something that heavy and traveling that fast need not be
> specially designed to peirce armor, it blows through just about anything
> inately.....
>
The description I read of the Barret in action in one of the Novels kind of
implied DU to my mind..... The bullet was seen to *burn* a hole though
the target.... like a mini fireball. Most normal bullets wouldn't
produce that kind of effect. You also have to acount for the different
power level and armour peircing capacity of the Barret over and above a
HMG (at least according to SR rules)

Not that it *really* matters..... the Barret is a mean gun, lets just
leave it at that. Next time I want to stop a Citymaster I'll use one.

Bleach
Message no. 15
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: APDS
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:28:06 +1000
On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Marty wrote:

[snip]

> The description I read of the Barret in action in one of the Novels kind of
> implied DU to my mind..... The bullet was seen to *burn* a hole though
> the target.... like a mini fireball. Most normal bullets wouldn't
> produce that kind of effect. You also have to acount for the different
> power level and armour peircing capacity of the Barret over and above a
> HMG (at least according to SR rules)
>
> Not that it *really* matters..... the Barret is a mean gun, lets just
> leave it at that. Next time I want to stop a Citymaster I'll use one.

I think that it was a barret that was specifically using DU rounds. It's
not the norm.

Ray.

_______________________________________________________________________
| 'The Universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be |
| missed.' |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: n1565842@*******.qut.edu.au or
r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au
Message no. 16
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:57:48 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:07 AM 2/23/99 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
>The smaller size also has less friction, making it more accurate over
>long ranges.
>
>Basically you end up with a high velocity, high mass round with a
small
>cross section that has good armor piercing ability and low drop off.

Lower drop off? That's something that a Smartgun system would have to
account for when it calculates the bullet's trajectory, right?

Detail Oriented GMs could exploit this: switching out regular rounds
for APDS loads in a Smartgun equiped firearm should require switching
to a different balistic profile. Of course with all the other gun mode
changes that are handled by Smartgun being nearly automatic (free
action) over the Direct Neural Interface of the Smartlink, this
probably wouldn't be too much of a hassle either.

Another possibility is that different loads of ammunition have their
balistic profiles encoded on the casing (similar to how filmspeed
information is encoded on canisters of 35mm film in today's time).
Just another detail to throw into the game.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 17
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:05:43 EST
In a message dated 99-02-23 16:32:07 EST, you write:

> Detail Oriented GMs could exploit this: switching out regular rounds
> for APDS loads in a Smartgun equiped firearm should require switching
> to a different balistic profile. Of course with all the other gun mode
> changes that are handled by Smartgun being nearly automatic (free
> action) over the Direct Neural Interface of the Smartlink, this
> probably wouldn't be too much of a hassle either.
>
> Another possibility is that different loads of ammunition have their
> balistic profiles encoded on the casing (similar to how filmspeed
> information is encoded on canisters of 35mm film in today's time).
> Just another detail to throw into the game.
>

This would seem to me to be something else that makes a Smartlink II better
than the original Smartlink. IE, guns euiped with Smart II's could do what
yoru describing here while those with smart I's would have to adjust for this
fact "manually".
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:37:55 +1000
Starrngr writes:
> This would seem to me to be something else that makes a Smartlink
> II better
> than the original Smartlink. IE, guns euiped with Smart II's
> could do what
> yoru describing here while those with smart I's would have to
> adjust for this
> fact "manually".

Hmmm... the only problem would be that the gun would have to have a way of
knowing what type of ammo you've loaded. Now, I can't see the gun being able
to examine the bullet, so that leaves two ways of identifying the ammo type:
1) smart clips, that can talk to the gun and tell it what type of ammo it
thinks it is loaded with.

2) the user of the gun sends a mental command to the gun while he/she is
inserting the ammo. I'd say that, with a bit of practise, this would be an
automatic reflex of loading the ammo. As an Evil GM, however, I might be
inclined to ask for dice rolls to make sure the PC gets the right type of
ammo, or if they are not familiar with the protocol of the smart gun.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 19
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:05:07 EST
In a message dated 99-02-24 01:38:56 EST, you write:

> Hmmm... the only problem would be that the gun would have to have a way of
> knowing what type of ammo you've loaded. Now, I can't see the gun being
able
> to examine the bullet, so that leaves two ways of identifying the ammo
type:
> 1) smart clips, that can talk to the gun and tell it what type of ammo it
> thinks it is loaded with.
>
Yup, that was part of the suggestion made by the original poster on this...
some sort of coding on the shell case like that on a roll of film the
smartlink can read and know what is loaded. Of course, this then leads to
much MORE fun when the GM says "sure, but only for the weapons you bought an
internal smartlink for"

> 2) the user of the gun sends a mental command to the gun while he/she is
> inserting the ammo. I'd say that, with a bit of practise, this would be an
> automatic reflex of loading the ammo. As an Evil GM, however, I might be
> inclined to ask for dice rolls to make sure the PC gets the right type of
> ammo, or if they are not familiar with the protocol of the smart gun.
>

Heh. Aside from slowing the game down in combat with an extra roll, That is
something that could worry any runner that carrys more than one type of ammo
around. the best solution ive found for that is you keep the two types in
different pockets.
Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:42 +0100
According to Paul Gettle, at 15:57 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Lower drop off? That's something that a Smartgun system would have to
> account for when it calculates the bullet's trajectory, right?

Yes.

> Detail Oriented GMs could exploit this: switching out regular rounds
> for APDS loads in a Smartgun equiped firearm should require switching
> to a different balistic profile. Of course with all the other gun mode
> changes that are handled by Smartgun being nearly automatic (free
> action) over the Direct Neural Interface of the Smartlink, this
> probably wouldn't be too much of a hassle either.
> Another possibility is that different loads of ammunition have their
> balistic profiles encoded on the casing (similar to how filmspeed
> information is encoded on canisters of 35mm film in today's time).
> Just another detail to throw into the game.

That's the way I've always played smartguns as working: they "know" which
type of ammunition is in the chamber, and adjust the projected impact
point accordingly, as well as displaying it in the user's field of vision.
Exactly how this is done I've not bothered with, but some kind of dot- or
barcode would work well enough (that's to say, it works for the autoloader
in the French Leclerc MBT).

This does have some scope for GMs whose players like to hand-load their
casings, though -- PCs will have to be careful which bullet they load into
what casing, and experimenting with different propellants and bullets will
cause all kinds of unpredictable results because the smartlink thinks it's
a different round than is actually in the weapon. This is not something
I'd like to bother with, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:42 +0100
According to Robert Watkins, at 16:37 on 24 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Hmmm... the only problem would be that the gun would have to have a way of
> knowing what type of ammo you've loaded. Now, I can't see the gun being able
> to examine the bullet, so that leaves two ways of identifying the ammo type:
> 1) smart clips, that can talk to the gun and tell it what type of ammo it
> thinks it is loaded with.

In which case you'd have to program the clip as it's being loaded with the
rounds, which is doable except it gives trouble when you put different
types of ammunition into a single clip. It is a bit impractical, unless
you combine it with #3 (below).

> 2) the user of the gun sends a mental command to the gun while he/she is
> inserting the ammo. I'd say that, with a bit of practise, this would be an
> automatic reflex of loading the ammo.

3) Put a code on the bullet or the casing (the bullet would be best, so
you can re-use the casing for another type of ammo if you want) that gets
read when the round is loaded into the chamber. In essence, this is what's
done today: a red bullet tip indicates tracer, a black one is for armor-
piercing, and so on. All it'd need is a scanner in the gun that checks the
color(s) of the bullet.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:09:07 -0700 (MST)
Gurth wrote:
/
/ That's the way I've always played smartguns as working: they "know" which
/ type of ammunition is in the chamber, and adjust the projected impact
/ point accordingly, as well as displaying it in the user's field of vision.
/ Exactly how this is done I've not bothered with, but some kind of dot- or
/ barcode would work well enough (that's to say, it works for the autoloader
/ in the French Leclerc MBT).
/
/ This does have some scope for GMs whose players like to hand-load their
/ casings, though -- PCs will have to be careful which bullet they load into
/ what casing, and experimenting with different propellants and bullets will
/ cause all kinds of unpredictable results because the smartlink thinks it's
/ a different round than is actually in the weapon. This is not something
/ I'd like to bother with, though.

Couldn't the character work out the ballistics on his comp and upload
the stats into his smartgun?

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 23
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:07:38 EST
In a message dated 2/24/99 3:17:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> 3) Put a code on the bullet or the casing (the bullet would be best, so
> you can re-use the casing for another type of ammo if you want) that gets
> read when the round is loaded into the chamber. In essence, this is what's
> done today: a red bullet tip indicates tracer, a black one is for armor-
> piercing, and so on. All it'd need is a scanner in the gun that checks the
> color(s) of the bullet.
>
While this would be the way I think, we can take it a step more (btw, the
hunting rounds are also colored, but they got much better range of colors,
blue violet green, all the prettiest shades to tell you boat-tail from your
whatever)
Remington is coming out with an electric ignition system rifle (others have
used electric triggers with standard ammo or caseless styles, which have there
own problems) that actually discharges through a case (hole where primer
usually is, I think with contact points)
The reason this has a better chance to stick around and become popular (IMO
ofc) is because they stick with a standard style case and will be reloadable
(from what I understand)
The SR part, the little contact points could conatin load data, bullet data
etc. For handloads, they could even be user programmable. For Commercial
runds, it wuld include tracing info, which would have spawned a whole system
of removing such tracing info.
(I fire my APDS, Case-Sleazed rounds)
Message no. 24
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:00:36 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:03 PM 2/24/99 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>This does have some scope for GMs whose players like to hand-load
their
>casings, though -- PCs will have to be careful which bullet they load
into
>what casing, and experimenting with different propellants and bullets
will
>cause all kinds of unpredictable results because the smartlink thinks
it's
>a different round than is actually in the weapon. This is not
something
>I'd like to bother with, though.

I'd only suggested it for color, mostly. As is, the smartgun bonus
just isn't big enough to start adding special-case rules to it. It's
only -2 to the target number for a smartlink, so what would the bonus
be for a smartgun that has an incorrect balistic profile for the round
it's firing? -1? How about if the smartgun is feeding into a pair of
smartgoggles, where the bonus is only -1 to start with?
Mechanics-wise, it's just not worth the hassle and the bookkeeping.
(There is the longer range bonus of the Smartlink II & Rangefinder
combo, that would be especially effected by this, but that's the most
I'd let be affected by this.)

- From a game flavor standpoint though, it's something for a GM to keep
in mind. This can always be an explanation for why botches botch
(either the actual shooting roll, or a B/R roll to hand load ammo). In
another post, I mention how if casings had round-type information
encoded on them, forensics teams would benifit. And I just happen to
like the idea of a Bar Coded Bullet. :)



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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 25
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:12:37 EST
skipped a part of this earlier, so I am not qouting direct, sorry :-)

I always liked the idea that smartgun-I just points where the gun points, with
Smart-II actually changing the point of impact for range.
Message no. 26
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:59:46 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:12 AM 2/24/99 -0500, Schizi@***.com wrote:
>skipped a part of this earlier, so I am not qouting direct, sorry :-)
>
>I always liked the idea that smartgun-I just points where the gun
points, with
>Smart-II actually changing the point of impact for range.

You're not the only one one the list with that view. Few months back,
there was a huge discussion about smartguns and what they can and
can't do, and that was one of the prevailing views about smartguns.

Since a smartgun gives at least a -1 to the t# whether it feeds into a
pair of smartgoggles, or up through smartlink cyberware, and since
this bonus is identical to the one given for having a lasersight, some
people concluded that the smartlink, like the lasersight, does not
account for balistics, and just puts the targeting recticle in a
straight line from where the gun points.

Acording to this theory, the reason that smartlink is better than
smartgoggles, with a -2 instead of a -1, is because the smartlink
allows the shooter to cybernetically trigger the firing mechanism,
thus freeing the gun from the small jerk caused by the finger pulling
the trigger, making for a more stable gun at the time of firing.

I've always played my smartguns as slightly smarter than this, but not
excessively so. (Some people run their smartguns as having a full
blown Friend-or-Foe image recognition system built in, which is a bit
much for my opinion, I don't think they're _that_ smart.)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:06:20 +0100
According to David Buehrer, at 7:09 on 24 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> / This does have some scope for GMs whose players like to hand-load their
> / casings, though -- PCs will have to be careful which bullet they load into
> / what casing, and experimenting with different propellants and bullets will
> / cause all kinds of unpredictable results because the smartlink thinks it's
> / a different round than is actually in the weapon. This is not something
> / I'd like to bother with, though.
>
> Couldn't the character work out the ballistics on his comp and upload
> the stats into his smartgun?

Probably, but (Paul Adam probably has better information here) I think it
would require a lot of test firings and other messing around to get it all
to work right.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:59:29 EST
In a message dated 2/24/99 8:00:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.com writes:

> You're not the only one one the list with that view. Few months back,
> there was a huge discussion about smartguns and what they can and
> can't do, and that was one of the prevailing views about smartguns.

Yeah, I saw the thread, but skipped moist of it since it evolved from another
subject and I was coming in in the middle.
The reason I think this is because of the greater bonuses at range for a
smart-II, if they were both right on target, they would be the same IMO. While
I like having the smart systems pretty smart, I also think they were designed
for shorter ranges at first, then finally they upgrded them to smart-II when
they figured out people might use them for longer ranges.
Message no. 29
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:10:30 +0000
In article <199902241606.RAA08089@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>According to David Buehrer, at 7:09 on 24 Feb 99, the word on
>the street was...
>> Couldn't the character work out the ballistics on his comp and upload
>> the stats into his smartgun?
>
>Probably, but (Paul Adam probably has better information here) I think it
>would require a lot of test firings and other messing around to get it all
>to work right.

Yep. You need to loose off a hundred rounds or so, on a range and from a
bench or clamp, to calculate the exact ballistics of a handload. For
commercial ammunition, they publish detailed tables for you, you'd just
need to use those.

Of course, if you're buying street or less-than-legal ammunition,
getting the right calibre may be an achivevement, let alone getting
accurate ballistic data for it... "Whaddaya mean ya wanna know who made
it? You wanted ammo, I got you ammo, you gonna buy it or what?" Even
reading the headstamps on cased ammo probably won't help, a lot of
street ammo would be reloads...


Kevin Dole makes the useful point that reducing the size of your "best
shot" grouping by an inch (say, from four to three inches) isn't going
to have much if any effect on combat shooting, but for sniping and
called shots it could be a factor.

I'd suggest that, like customisation, a day or two at the range and
several hundred rounds of ammunition carefully expended could allow you
to get an extra die on your Firearms test when using that exact
ammunition (not just 'flechette' but 'CCI Lightning 55-grain +P
flechette", for instance... and the forensic data will reflect that :) )
>
--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 30
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:14:53 +0000
In article <fb065230.36d3c0c3@***.com>, Starrngr@***.com writes
>Heh. Aside from slowing the game down in combat with an extra roll, That is
>something that could worry any runner that carrys more than one type of ammo
>around. the best solution ive found for that is you keep the two types in
>different pockets.

Use coloured baseplates on your magazines, or at least coloured tape :)

Remember Die Hard 2? I sat up part-way through thinking "oh, yeah?" as
both the Army guys and the terrorists loaded magazines marked with blue
tape...



--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 31
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:35:12 -0600
:2) the user of the gun sends a mental command to the gun while he/she is
:inserting the ammo. I'd say that, with a bit of practise, this would be
an
:automatic reflex of loading the ammo. As an Evil GM, however, I might be
:inclined to ask for dice rolls to make sure the PC gets the right type of
:ammo, or if they are not familiar with the protocol of the smart gun.
:
:--
:.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
:
:
:

I think if the USER knows what ammo they are loading, the GUN would
know - I generally assume cyberware function is "transparent". Of course,
the user may not know the ammos exact characteristics.
On the other hand, those characteristics are pretty easy for the gun
to nail down after a shot or two. Determing muzzle velocity and chamber
pressure would be easy. Other info could be extracted by comparing the
actual impact site (as designated by the user) with ballistic models.
A practice round or two might be in order, but after that, the
smartlink should know the specs for "those bullets I got from my buddy
Joe" and compensate for them- unless they are inconsistent.
As this type of familiarity is just as important if you are NOT using
a smartlink, it is probably already covered as part of the users skill
level. After all, lazer sights and scopes don't compensate for ballistics
AT ALL, and still offer benefits.

Mongoose
Message no. 32
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: APDS
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:24:08 -0800
Date sent: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:59:46 -0500
To: shadowrn@*********.org
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.com>
Subject: Re: APDS
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

{SNIP}
>
>
> Acording to this theory, the reason that smartlink is better than
> smartgoggles, with a -2 instead of a -1, is because the smartlink
> allows the shooter to cybernetically trigger the firing mechanism,
> thus freeing the gun from the small jerk caused by the finger pulling
> the trigger, making for a more stable gun at the time of firing.

Interesting thought, I always thought it was the goggles. That the system
projected the targeting icon (spot, cross hair what ever) on to the inside of
the goggle lense. If you do not position the goggles just right on your head
the targeting icon would not be in the right place. With the cyber version
once calibrated the relationship between the eye and the target icon would be
set perminately.

>
> I've always played my smartguns as slightly smarter than this, but not
> excessively so. (Some people run their smartguns as having a full
> blown Friend-or-Foe image recognition system built in, which is a bit
> much for my opinion, I don't think they're _that_ smart.)
>
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> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
> PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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>
>




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 33
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:48:57 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:24 AM 2/25/99 -0800, David Hinkley wrote:
>> Acording to this theory, the reason that smartlink is better than
>> smartgoggles, with a -2 instead of a -1, is because the smartlink
>> allows the shooter to cybernetically trigger the firing mechanism,
>> thus freeing the gun from the small jerk caused by the finger
pulling
>> the trigger, making for a more stable gun at the time of firing.
>
>Interesting thought, I always thought it was the goggles. That the
system
>projected the targeting icon (spot, cross hair what ever) on to the
inside of
>the goggle lense. If you do not position the goggles just right on
your head
>the targeting icon would not be in the right place. With the cyber
version
>once calibrated the relationship between the eye and the target icon
would be
>set perminately.

Actually, what you describe above is the theory I use myself, at least
in part.

One hole I've found in the "no trigger jerk" theory is the Smartlink
Integration Kit in Rigger2, available for turret mounted and fixed
firm/hardpoint mounted smartgun equiped weapons. These weapons aren't
hand held, trigger jerk shoudn't be a factor. Despite that, the -2
bonus for smartlink is maintained.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 34
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:48:02 EST
In a message dated 2/25/1999 10:50:32 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.com writes:

>
> Actually, what you describe above is the theory I use myself, at least
> in part.
>
> One hole I've found in the "no trigger jerk" theory is the Smartlink
> Integration Kit in Rigger2, available for turret mounted and fixed
> firm/hardpoint mounted smartgun equiped weapons. These weapons aren't
> hand held, trigger jerk shoudn't be a factor. Despite that, the -2
> bonus for smartlink is maintained.

Actually, last I knew it, was NOT retained. Smartlink Integration Kits are
designed to integrate vehicular sensors with vehicular weapons and their
controller(s). Those rules are different, and under the correct
circumstances, MUCH worse.

-K
Message no. 35
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: APDS
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:25:37 EST
In a message dated 99-02-25 22:53:03 EST, you write:

> Actually, last I knew it, was NOT retained. Smartlink Integration Kits are
> designed to integrate vehicular sensors with vehicular weapons and their
> controller(s). Those rules are different, and under the correct
> circumstances, MUCH worse.
>
> -K

After reading and re-reading the section on the SIK's, what a SIK IS is sort
of like a extension cable for a smartlink. Say youve got a LMG in the turret
of a vehicle. your going to fire it, and the SIK makes the connection between
where your sitting, (often in a passenger seat) and the LMG so that you get
the smart link benifits just like you were holding the weapon in your hand.
This benifit solely applys to manual gunnery, which is totaly different from
sensor gunnery.
Message no. 36
From: sean jamieson elf61@*******.com
Subject: apds
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:44:14 PST
the apds ammo shouldn't be any good in the real world. like you said,
small arms are just too weak to be able to handle them. but there is an
armor piercing ammo that is good for small arms. they're called bloody
marys. they're armor piercing exploding ammo. i think fof has something
similar.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 37
From: Dodge d7582@*****.com
Subject: apds
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:40:50 -0800
sean jamieson wrote:
>
> the apds ammo shouldn't be any good in the real world. like you said,
> small arms are just too weak to be able to handle them. but there is an
> armor piercing ammo that is good for small arms. they're called bloody
> marys. they're armor piercing exploding ammo. i think fof has something
> similar.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.comI heard of an armor pircing
round called Black Talon, or somthuing like
that. Cop killer as well. How do those work? Is it apds or explosive or
what?
Message no. 38
From: Wyrmy elfman@******.com
Subject: apds
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:09:54 -0600
I heard of an armor pircing round called Black Talon, or somthuing like
> that. Cop killer as well. How do those work? Is it apds or explosive or
> what?

I heard about those few years back on the news. Teh ycalled them Black
Rhino, or talon, or Black something or other. What they do is, when they
fire, they mushroom out and make a whirling Drill bit/Sawblade thing
that will cut kevlar like nothing.But hasnt the government cracked down
real ahrd on those?
--
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----------------------------------------------------------
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Famous Quote: "Pikachu? What Pikachu?" BZRAK "Oh,(cough), THAT
Pikachu!"
Message no. 39
From: Dodge d7582@*****.com
Subject: apds
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 20:44:58 -0800
Ick. That last post was badly done. Let's try that again.

I heard of an armor pircing round called Black Talon, or something like
that. Cop killer as well. How do those work? Is it apds or explosive or
what?
Message no. 40
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: apds
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:02:44 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Dodge <d7582@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 02 March 1999 01:49
Subject: Re: apds


>sean jamieson wrote:
>>
>> the apds ammo shouldn't be any good in the real world. like you
said,
>> small arms are just too weak to be able to handle them. but there
is an
>> armor piercing ammo that is good for small arms. they're called
bloody
>> marys. they're armor piercing exploding ammo. i think fof has
something
>> similar.

>heard of an armor pircing round called Black Talon, or somthuing like
>that. Cop killer as well. How do those work? Is it apds or explosive
or
>what?


The Black Talons I have seen are fragmentory in nature. Apparently the
black part on the tip of the round goes to pieces as it hits and the
little barbs fly around in the targets body. In SR terms they are
closest to Flechettes I would say. Yes they are cop killers and highly
restricted/illegal in most countries. (except South Africa and some US
States , were freedom is still being fought for)

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Step from my tables as I start to chop
I'm a lumberjack DJ Adrock
If you try to knock me you'll get mocked
I'll stir fry you in my wok

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Message no. 41
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: apds
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:45:30 +0100
According to Dodge, at 20:44 on 1 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> I heard of an armor pircing round called Black Talon, or something like
> that. Cop killer as well. How do those work? Is it apds or explosive or
> what?

IIRC, Black Talon rounds have (had? I think they're not manufactured
anymore) sharp metal prongs that expanded from the bullet when it hit a
target. It wasn't armor-piercing, but an anti-personnel round (that means
it's intended to stop people in their tracks).

--
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Message no. 42
From: Damian Robinson max.robinson@**.net.au
Subject: apds
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:24:35 +1100
Bruce wrote:
>
<Snip
> The Black Talons I have seen are fragmentory in nature. Apparently the
> black part on the tip of the round goes to pieces as it hits and the
> little barbs fly around in the targets body. In SR terms they are
> closest to Flechettes I would say. Yes they are cop killers and highly
> restricted/illegal in most countries. (except South Africa and some US
> States , were freedom is still being fought for)
>
<Snip>

The Black Talons are a solid bullet, designed to expand the same way
each time. They got bad press, and are no more of a cop killer bullet
than any other. In fact, the design would be less dangerous than some
others, as its design would be less effective Vs body armor. Part of
the problem was the way it was advertised, showing the expanded bullet
(it looks like a X) and people thought it would act like some insane
buzzsaw out of a pistol. The bullet was renamed for police usage only,
and a civilian version, with a different name was brought out. Similar
bullets are the Barnes 'X' bullet, and the 'Fail Safe" range from
Winchester. Don't know if they still make any of them in pistol sizes
or not though...

The original "cop killer bullets" were the Teflon coated bullets that
were supposed to be more effective Vs body armor.

They got banned verrry quickly...

Wonder why???
;-{>
--
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Damian

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Message no. 43
From: Beal, Nathan nathan.beal@***.ac.uk
Subject: apds
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:50:49 -0000
> The original "cop killer bullets" were the Teflon coated bullets that
> were supposed to be more effective Vs body armor.
>
> They got banned verrry quickly...
>
> Wonder why???
>
(Whilst films are typically unrealistic lethal weapon 3 was), a solid core
round coated with Teflon (or similar) will penetrate most body armors better
than a traditional round. However solid slugs do not flatten as well in the
body, unless they hit a bone they frequently pass through the soft targets.
This can cause less armor. For a true APDS round I ignore the rules
presented in SR and drop the weapons power by 1/4 but oppose the bullet with
half impact rather than ballistic, ballistic weaves are pathetic against
such rounds.
Message no. 44
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: apds
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:29:54 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Beal, Nathan wrote:

> (Whilst films are typically unrealistic lethal weapon 3 was), a solid core
> round coated with Teflon (or similar) will penetrate most body armors better
> than a traditional round.

Teflon does not make the round armor piercing. Teflon reduces
barrel wear. If the teflon were not present, the harder metal jacket of
the round would rapidly begin wearing down the rifling in the barrel.
Hence, teflon is used to make the bullet "slide" down the barrel more
easily. It's the metal jacket and resulting lack of bullet deformation on
impact that makes the round armor piercing, not the teflon.

Marc
Message no. 45
From: sean jamieson elf61@*******.com
Subject: apds
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:10:23 PST
the black talon is a black closed talon shaped bullet that when fired is
turned into a open talon shaped (dimond tipped) drillbit. when it hits
it turns all armor into ground beef and the flesh underneath, don't ask.
it lodges into the body and causes even more damage by moving and
cutting the insides with the flow of blood.

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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 46
From: Beal, Nathan nathan.beal@***.ac.uk
Subject: apds
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:06:05 -0000
I totally agree (sorry the post was not clearer, Teflon does not a
penetrator make, but the solid core.

> Teflon does not make the round armor piercing. Teflon reduces
> barrel wear. If the teflon were not present, the harder metal jacket of
> the round would rapidly begin wearing down the rifling in the barrel.
> Hence, teflon is used to make the bullet "slide" down the barrel more
> easily. It's the metal jacket and resulting lack of bullet deformation on
> impact that makes the round armor piercing, not the teflon.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
>

Further Reading

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