Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:51:47 -0000
>> Check under 'narcisistic'.
>>
>> I did - it said "Word not found". :-)

>check under all variations of the word ... "Narcissus" ... you might get a
>good read even... ;-)

<Sigh> C'mon K, I *knew* that!

Anyway, I was thinking....I keep getting emails from my fiancee with
atrocious spelling. So what, I hear you cry? Well, when she writes
business proposals etc., she uses a spellchecker, and hence, it's lovely...

I have this distinct impression that most people coming through school
these days aren't really taught that spelling is important. So, in the
SR world, will *anyone* be able to a) spell, b) do simple arithmetic, c)
punctu'ate etc, without the help of a wordprocessor?
Message no. 2
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:00:25 +0200
James Dening wrote:
>
> I have this distinct impression that most people coming through school
> these days aren't really taught that spelling is important. So, in the
> SR world, will *anyone* be able to a) spell, b) do simple arithmetic, c)
> punctu'ate etc, without the help of a wordprocessor?

I always had perfect spelling and punctuation... until I became a
regular IRC user. Sudden'ly, I don't have time to talk proper :-)
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 3
From: Logan Graves logan1@********.net
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:43:11 -0500
In our last episode, James Dening wrote:
>
> Anyway, I was thinking....I keep getting emails from my fiancee with
> atrocious spelling. So what, I hear you cry? Well, when she writes
> business proposals etc., she uses a spellchecker, and hence, it's lovely...
>
> I have this distinct impression that most people coming through school
> these days aren't really taught that spelling is important. So, in the
> SR world, will *anyone* be able to a) spell, b) do simple arithmetic, c)
> punctu'ate etc, without the help of a wordprocessor?

I remember reading somewhere that the basic literacy rates in SR were measurably
lower than today's, but I couldn't find the reference (Maybe it was in the
Cyberpunk books...).

Their reasoning went something along the lines of what you're proposing. So in
the Matrix, the very iconography which makes it user friendly, is in fact
dumbing down the population. Folks in the 2060's have much higher speaking than
writing skills (Now I'm *sure* that's in SR3).

But actually, it's happening already:

Take for example McDonalds menus & cash registers. If you ask, they'll hand you
a wordless menu with pictures of food! And in many locales, the cash registers'
keys are also covered with little food "icons." Which, I guess, allows them to
potentially hire THE least common denominator of the population.

"Sure you can work for us, as long as you know what food LOOKS LIKE..."

I've been concerned about all of these "friendly" spellcheckers, for a while
now. Ever since they started include them in Netscape, Word, and, uh, pretty
much everything dealing with words, I've noticed that my spelling's gone
downhill & I'm not as careful about it.

What does that say about the folks who couldn't spell to begin with?

Add to this the fact that it's poor netiquette to correct others' spelling,
especially, as you said, in IRC chatrooms.

I think I can see where it's all headed. ;-/

--Fenris, rambling along at 6:00 in the AM...

______________________________________________Fenris@************,virtualAve.net
(>) The best in this kind are but shadows.
(>) W. Shakespeare, "A Midsummer Night's Dream."
Message no. 4
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:12:13 -0500
On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:43:11 -0500 Logan Graves <logan1@********.net>
writes:
> I remember reading somewhere that the basic literacy rates in SR
> were measurably
> lower than today's, but I couldn't find the reference (Maybe it was
> in the
> Cyberpunk books...).

I remember it coming up on this list a while ago, not sure if it ever
existed in a book :-)
I say it depends on the job held of course, a corporate type will not be
hired for his ability to punch colored pictures.

>
> Take for example McDonalds menus & cash registers. If you ask,
> they'll hand you
> a wordless menu with pictures of food! And in many locales, the
> cash registers'
> keys are also covered with little food "icons." Which, I guess,
> allows them to
> potentially hire THE least common denominator of the population.
>
> "Sure you can work for us, as long as you know what food LOOKS
> LIKE..."

I have seen teh menu's with pictures, they're for deaf/mute people, they
also have braile. I have heard the "cash register pictures" for a long
time, but I don't think they exist anymore (if they actually ever did),
too much other stuff on teh menu. OTOH, it seems "counting out change" is
a hereditary trait, which cannot be taught to some people. (hand them the
change so that you get certain coins back, and watch some people
just...lock up. :-)
Not to mention when they give you 5 dimes instead of 2 quarters, and you
can SEE the durn quarters right THERE!.
I find that really sad.

> I've been concerned about all of these "friendly" spellcheckers, for
> a while
> now. Ever since they started include them in Netscape, Word, and,
> uh, pretty
> much everything dealing with words, I've noticed that my spelling's
> gone
> downhill & I'm not as careful about it.
>
>

I have noticed that I type faster now, and screw up some words constantly
("the" being the main one :-)
I never use a spell checker though, except in Word, where it underlines
them.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 5
From: Jinx _ jinx@*******.Com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:00:46 -0500
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: vocenoctum@****.com
Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:12:13 -0500

>On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:43:11 -0500 Logan Graves <logan1@********.net>
>writes:
>> I remember reading somewhere that the basic literacy rates in SR
>> were measurably
>> lower than today's, but I couldn't find the reference (Maybe it was
>> in the
>> Cyberpunk books...).
>
>I remember it coming up on this list a while ago, not sure if it ever
>existed in a book :-)
>I say it depends on the job held of course, a corporate type will not be
>hired for his ability to punch colored pictures.

I don't have the book handy at the moment (isn't that always the case?), but I do remember
reading in SR3 that most computer-based functions had gone to graphic icons rather than
printed words. It's in the skills section talking about language skills, and explaining
why, if you take a skill of English 6 you get Read/Write English at 3, because it's not
emphasized much any more. Goes on to say that you can spend extra points to improve R/W as
a normal skill. Ignore my grammar, it's been a long day...

Jinx
Message no. 6
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:33:09 -0800
On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:00:46 -0500 "Jinx _" <jinx@*******.Com> writes:
<SNIP>
> I don't have the book handy at the moment (isn't that always the
> case?), but I do remember reading in SR3 that most computer-based
> functions had gone to graphic icons rather than printed words. It's
> in the skills section talking about language skills, and explaining
> why, if you take a skill of English 6 you get Read/Write English at
> 3, because it's not emphasized much any more. Goes on to say that
> you can spend extra points to improve R/W as a normal skill. Ignore
> my grammar, it's been a long day...

Uhm. I know it says computer-based functions had switched to
icon/simsense in the description of the Illiterate flaw in the SRCo (3rd
& 2nd editions).

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 7
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:26:50 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: James Dening <james@************.force9.co.uk>
To: 'shadowrn@*********.com' <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 8:58 PM
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!


>>> Check under 'narcisistic'.
>>>
>>> I did - it said "Word not found". :-)
>
>>check under all variations of the word ... "Narcissus" ... you might
get
a
>>good read even... ;-)
>
><Sigh> C'mon K, I *knew* that!
>
>Anyway, I was thinking....I keep getting emails from my fiancee with
>atrocious spelling. So what, I hear you cry? Well, when she writes
>business proposals etc., she uses a spellchecker, and hence, it's lovely...
>
>I have this distinct impression that most people coming through school
>these days aren't really taught that spelling is important. So, in the
>SR world, will *anyone* be able to a) spell, b) do simple arithmetic, c)
>punctu'ate etc, without the help of a wordprocessor?
>
I read an American ad in the back of a novel in the 80's that said that by
2000, 2 out of 3 Americans would be illiterate, and at the time the figure
was 1 out of 3. I assume this includes those who have a grasp of the written
language but have trouble reading more than the TV guide. So now it is 2000,
how many illiterate Americans are there? I will say here that the levels are
pretty damn high in Australia too, I just don't have the figures, this is
not a sep bash. In the novel Changeling (I know, I know) it is said that
most people are 'iconiterate' but not literate. I also know that the main
computer companies are scrambling to make computer voice recognition
software that actually works because adult white males are the least able to
type, and so are unlikely to buy computers. Get rid of the keyboard and sell
more stock. High schools in Australia demand that you take a calculator into
your maths exams these days. It was cheating in the 80's. I am unable to do
long division. It is the most useless of the basic maths, and I never use it
so I keep forgetting how. The way I see it, a calculator is a tool just like
a hammer, and you don't see anyone complaining that nobody uses wattle and
daub any more.
So basically, I think that the written language is doomed, except for those
who need it, like in the middle ages when only monks could read or write.
Maths is also doomed, but is much easier to pick up than reading.
Message no. 8
From: Jinx jinx@*******.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:18:56 -0600
At 09:26 AM 3/23/00 +1000, you wrote:

>Maths is also doomed, but is much easier to pick up than reading.

Ummm... that would depend on the individual... for some of us it is the
other way around - pick up reading like breathing but can't multiply
without a calculator.

Jinx
http://www.redrival.com/jmenning/roleplaying/sr.html
Message no. 9
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:28:01 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Jinx <jinx@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!


>At 09:26 AM 3/23/00 +1000, you wrote:
>
>>Maths is also doomed, but is much easier to pick up than reading.
>
>Ummm... that would depend on the individual... for some of us it is the
>other way around - pick up reading like breathing but can't multiply
>without a calculator.
>
>Jinx
>http://www.redrival.com/jmenning/roleplaying/sr.html
>


I taught myself to read at age 4, but still struggle with a lot of maths,
but what I had in mind was that it is pretty easy to say those two fingers
put with those two fingers make four fingers, and from there get yourself a
grounding in maths that basically grows itself. It is much harder to start
reading, especially if you are an adult, I am told. If the majority of the
population was illiterate then chances are you will be too, but basic math
is pretty easy, since the human mind, as a predator, is designed to count.
Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:32:16 -0800 (PST)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> I've been concerned about all of these "friendly"
spellcheckers, for a while now. Ever since they
started include them in Netscape, Word, and, uh,
pretty much everything dealing with words, I've
noticed that my spelling's gone downhill & I'm not as
careful about it.
>
> What does that say about the folks who couldn't
spell to begin with?
>
> Add to this the fact that it's poor netiquette to
correct others' spelling, especially, as you said, in
IRC chatrooms.
>
> I think I can see where it's all headed. ;-/
> --Fenris, rambling along at 6:00 in the AM...

Lazy bastards, the lot of you!

The only time I ever use a spellchecker is when I'm
doing a professional quality document - and even then,
something in the range of 99.9% of my spelling is
already correct.

Damn it all to hell, you should take more PRIDE in
your writing!

(Can you tell poor spelling, grammar and punctuation
are particular pet-peeves of mine?)

Seriously, though, I concur with Fenris. I personally
rarely misspell a word unless I'm doing it
intentionally and I'm sure there are others out there
like me. I will NEVER get lazy in this fashion - I
couldn't stand it if I did. On the other hand, the
vast majority of people outside of the business world
couldn't give a crap about spelling and the like and
even in the business world they now have spellcheckers
to fix it all up for them. That trend will continue in
SR times, I'm sure.

I do disagree with FASA in one respect here. I don't
see literacy itself diving to the degree they suggest
(only being able to read and write half as well as you
speak). Icons and symbology are all well and good, but
they simply could not replace the written word to the
degree suggested - they don't have the range to do so.
Even if everything in the matrix is based on
symbology, only the fraction of the population
equipped with datajacks will experience pure symbology
- for people with tortoises the matrix will be more
like the internet of today, where things are icon AND
text-based.

What about "help files"? They HAVE to be text-based,
unless you intend to construct a full iconic language
- heiroglyphics anyone? Why on earth would you do
that? The history of the world has been headed AWAY
from such stuff. What about newspapers, message boards
etc? They may only exist in an electronic form, but
they're not going to be depicted in an iconic form.

If anything, I think literacy would HAVE to increase,
except maybe (MAYBE) in areas like the Barrens. Menial
jobs where you can get away with not reading would
decline, because automated systems could do them more
efficiently (again, the only place where such jobs
would not decline would be in the Barrens and maybe
some of the other low class areas). Hell, look at us
today. I'll use myself as an example.

I'm no idiot (okay, I can be an idiot, but I'm not a
dummy :) ), but I'm an order of magnitude more
articulate when writing than I am when speaking. It's
easier to formulate my thoughts into coherent,
meaningful sentences on paper or on computer than it
is while I'm speaking (which is why I suck in social
situations where gaming is not the main topic of
discourse ;) ). Now, comprehension-wise I'd be up
about the same level with both written and spoken
communication, although it's definitely easier to
understand tougher, more complex things when they're
written, rather than spoken. To quantify it, if, for
example, I had English 5, then my English R/W would be
6 or 7.

I'm sure many, if not all other "computer geeks" would
be in the same situation. And with the increasing
computerisation of the world, I can only see that
trend increasing.

Well, I've babbled on a lot. Feel free to disagree
with me, but if you do, take note of just one thing...

You're wrong.

;)

*Doc's butt is currently feeling smarter than the rest
of him. This is NOT a good thing...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 11
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:29:34 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!


><BigSnip(TM)>
>> I've been concerned about all of these "friendly"
>spellcheckers, for a while now. Ever since they
>started include them in Netscape, Word, and, uh,
>pretty much everything dealing with words, I've
>noticed that my spelling's gone downhill & I'm not as
>careful about it.
>>

The Sunday Mail, the Queensland (Australia) main sunday paper usually has
horrendous mistakes because it is obvious that they rely heavily on spell
checking programs which won't detect a misspelt word if it is turned into
another word by the typo (like goad turning into goat, for want of a better
example). It is a trashy tabloid style paper, but still...


>I do disagree with FASA in one respect here. I don't
>see literacy itself diving to the degree they suggest
>(only being able to read and write half as well as you
>speak). Icons and symbology are all well and good, but
>they simply could not replace the written word to the
>degree suggested - they don't have the range to do so.
>Even if everything in the matrix is based on
>symbology, only the fraction of the population
>equipped with datajacks will experience pure symbology
>- for people with tortoises the matrix will be more
>like the internet of today, where things are icon AND
>text-based.
>
>What about "help files"? They HAVE to be text-based,
>unless you intend to construct a full iconic language
>- heiroglyphics anyone? Why on earth would you do
>that? The history of the world has been headed AWAY
>from such stuff. What about newspapers, message boards
>etc? They may only exist in an electronic form, but
>they're not going to be depicted in an iconic form.
>


In my personal vision of the Shadowrun future, computers can speak and
comprehend speech in a fairly life like and useful way, and so only deckers
would actually need more than a mouse, speakers and a mic. and they plug in
anyway. Keyboards would probably go the way of punchcards, and people would
look at them and say "But the keys aren't even in Alphabetical order". I
think even tortoises would have a setup like those Zork style adventure
games where you click on different things for different responses, just like
what deckers see but confined to the screen, their matrix presence might be
a little white arrow. As for newspapers etc., well they probably shouldn't
exist as text in Shadowrun, though they do by the descriptions I have read.
I suppose it is just too hard for a writer, who's whole world is writing, to
imagine a world without it.

Now, comprehension-wise I'd be up
>about the same level with both written and spoken
>communication, although it's definitely easier to
>understand tougher, more complex things when they're
>written, rather than spoken. To quantify it, if, for
>example, I had English 5, then my English R/W would be
>6 or 7.
>
>I'm sure many, if not all other "computer geeks" would
>be in the same situation. And with the increasing
>computerisation of the world, I can only see that
>trend increasing.
>

You're right here, but it is like that guy asking for support for playing
Shadowrun when over 30 years old. We here are probably all far more
literate in text than in speech. But, most people don't love books like the
average Shadowrun player does, and have trouble being fluent in writing.
Have you ever read a letter from a relative who isn't a bookworm? Not such
clear prose as we are used to on the list

>*Doc's butt is currently feeling smarter than the rest
>of him. This is NOT a good thing...*
>
>====>Doc'


Oh, and time for my own rant. We have pretty much unlimited time to type a
response to letters here (except for those stealing time on the computer at
work :) ), so why all the abbreviations? Newbies like me are left in the
dark when people start saying AFAIK and YMMV and IMNSHO. I know now what
they mean because I found some files on the subject. In a chat room I can
understand, but so what if you have to press a few extra keys here? The
occasional SR instead of Shadowrun is OK, but mostly it's just the same
laziness as bad spelling when you know better.
Mind you, this list is nowhere near as bad as some.
Message no. 12
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:34:48 -0500
Simon Fuller wrote:

> <SNIP>
> In my personal vision of the Shadowrun future, computers can speak and
> comprehend speech in a fairly life like and useful way, and so only deckers
> would actually need more than a mouse, speakers and a mic. and they plug in
> anyway. Keyboards would probably go the way of punchcards, and people would
> look at them and say "But the keys aren't even in Alphabetical order". I
> think even tortoises would have a setup like those Zork style adventure
> games where you click on different things for different responses, just like
> what deckers see but confined to the screen, their matrix presence might be
> a little white arrow. As for newspapers etc., well they probably shouldn't
> exist as text in Shadowrun, though they do by the descriptions I have read.
> I suppose it is just too hard for a writer, who's whole world is writing, to
> imagine a world without it.

<SNIP>
OK, what about street signs? I don't know about you, but it seems pretty
important that you'd need to be able to read "Adams Rd" if you were trying to
find it. And they wouldn't have some sort of "talking" sign (can you imagine the
noise pollution of all the street signs in Seattle repeating themselves ad
nauseum and ad infinitum? [side note: my Latin's not all that it's cracked up to
be so if they are the same thing I apologize. I believe that ad nauseum means
"over and over" while ad infinitum means "for all eternity",
correct?]) Most
runners ARE going to need to be able to read at least that well. (And since I'm
evil I make each of them roll their R/W skills just to make sure, target number
4 because that's standard.)

*Strago proposes the American Literacy Foundation take this as its new slogan:
"Reading. It gets you from Point A to Point Z."*

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance.
In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 13
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:39:44 -0800
From: "Strago" <strago@***.com>
> <SNIP>
> OK, what about street signs? I don't know about you, but it seems pretty
> important that you'd need to be able to read "Adams Rd" if you were trying
to
> find it. And they wouldn't have some sort of "talking" sign (can you
imagine the
> noise pollution of all the street signs in Seattle repeating themselves ad
> nauseum and ad infinitum? [side note: my Latin's not all that it's cracked
up to
> be so if they are the same thing I apologize. I believe that ad nauseum
means
> "over and over" while ad infinitum means "for all eternity",
correct?])
Most
> runners ARE going to need to be able to read at least that well. (And
since I'm
> evil I make each of them roll their R/W skills just to make sure, target
number
> 4 because that's standard.)
>
> *Strago proposes the American Literacy Foundation take this as its new
slogan:
> "Reading. It gets you from Point A to Point Z."*

In SR 3rd Edition you get Intelligence x 1.5 in Language skills right? This
leaves the average chump (Int 3) with a skill of 4 in his native language.
You get half of that as a Read/Write. So he has a skill of 2. Not too good
but enough to read streetsigns. I'd place 2 as the level of most average
people of today even. Good enough to get by, but they have to break out the
dictionaries if the words get too long.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 14
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:55:25 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Strago <strago@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!


>Simon Fuller wrote:
>
>> <SNIP>

>OK, what about street signs? I don't know about you, but it seems pretty
>important that you'd need to be able to read "Adams Rd" if you were trying
to
>find it. And they wouldn't have some sort of "talking" sign (can you
imagine the
>noise pollution of all the street signs in Seattle repeating themselves ad
>nauseum and ad infinitum? [side note: my Latin's not all that it's cracked
up to
>be so if they are the same thing I apologize. I believe that ad nauseum
means
>"over and over" while ad infinitum means "for all eternity",
correct?])
Most
>runners ARE going to need to be able to read at least that well. (And since
I'm
>evil I make each of them roll their R/W skills just to make sure, target
number
>4 because that's standard.)
>
>*Strago proposes the American Literacy Foundation take this as its new
slogan:
>"Reading. It gets you from Point A to Point Z."*
>
>--
>--Strago
>
On board mapping programs exist in cars now, they would be more common in
the future, linked to GPS's. There aren't too many pedestrians in a
Cyberpunk future. Where I live there aren't many street signs anyway :)
Actually, there is talk of putting red lights on low bridges, because truck
drivers keep driving under and getting stuck, even though there are 'Low
Bridge' signs. So they found out that even dozing drivers naturally stop at
red lights, and presto. Most road signs are icon based anyway, the crossed
Railroad Crossing sign, the red octagon stop sign, the triangle give way
sign (is it Yield in the US?)
Message no. 15
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:50:26 -0500
Simon Fuller wrote:

> <SNIP>

> On board mapping programs exist in cars now, they would be more common in
> the future, linked to GPS's. There aren't too many pedestrians in a
> Cyberpunk future. Where I live there aren't many street signs anyway :)
> Actually, there is talk of putting red lights on low bridges, because truck
> drivers keep driving under and getting stuck, even though there are 'Low
> Bridge' signs. So they found out that even dozing drivers naturally stop at
> red lights, and presto. Most road signs are icon based anyway, the crossed
> Railroad Crossing sign, the red octagon stop sign, the triangle give way
> sign (is it Yield in the US?)

A. Yes it is Yield
B. For Speed Limit signs you need to be able to read the numbers
C. I was talking about street signs, like the two right outside my window: City
Ave and 63rd Street. Yes, mapping programs exist. But are they standard in every
car? I don't know. And if you are too poor to afford a car (most of my
characters' are, and so are all of my players'), then you gotta take the tube
and walk. As the slogan says, "Reading. It's fundamental." Maybe I'm just
blinded because I read a lot and I like it.

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance.
In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 16
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:24:23 -0800 (PST)
> I taught myself to read at age 4
<Snippola(TM)>

Well, you're a slow starter, ain't'cha, Simon?

:)

(Was I being sarcastic? Who knows? Heh...)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:00:02 +0100
According to vocenoctum@****.com, at 14:12 on 22 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

> I remember it coming up on this list a while ago, not sure if it ever
> existed in a book :-)

I think it's in the SR3 main rules, in the bit where it talks about how
many points you get for language skills and how to assign them.

> I say it depends on the job held of course, a corporate type will not be
> hired for his ability to punch colored pictures.

Maybe not, but OTOH if all that corp type has to do, in the way of reading
and writing, is fill out standard forms and write reports by dictating to
a piece of voice-recognition software (and/or have such reports read to
them by a computer, which is far easier than making that same computer
understand what you say), they wouldn't need to be as literate as we are
(and face it, you have to be literate to be on a mailing list. Certain
people excepted, of course :)

> OTOH, it seems "counting out change" is a hereditary trait, which cannot
> be taught to some people. (hand them the change so that you get certain
> coins back, and watch some people just...lock up. :-)

I get plenty of blank stares in those situations, yeah...

> I find that really sad.

Same here. But if it's the way of the future, I guess it's a Very Good
Thing(tm) that SR uses electronic, instead of physical, money.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:00:02 +0100
According to Strago, at 1:34 on 23 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> OK, what about street signs? I don't know about you, but it seems pretty
> important that you'd need to be able to read "Adams Rd" if you were trying
to
> find it.

I don't think anyone said people in SR are totally illiterate -- they're
not Beavis & Butt-Head :) -- just that they don't read as much as we do
now, and so don't read as well. Street signs are just a few words, which
are easy enough to read even if you can't read very well. However, someone
who normally only reads street signs and similar short, one-sentence (or
even one-word) "texts" will have trouble getting through a whole page or
screen full of text, or when reading difficult words they that don't
encounter very often.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:00:02 +0100
According to Strago, at 1:50 on 23 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> A. Yes it is Yield

Anyone with the Pearl Jam album of the same name should recognize the
street sign :)

> B. For Speed Limit signs you need to be able to read the numbers

Not necessarily. All you need to know is that the needle on your
speedometer shouldn't point to a number that's further on the dial than
the one on the sign by the side of the road.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:44:51 -0800 (PST)
> In my personal vision of the Shadowrun future,
> computers can speak and
> comprehend speech in a fairly life like and useful
> way, and so only deckers
> would actually need more than a mouse, speakers and
> a mic. and they plug in
> anyway. Keyboards would probably go the way of
> punchcards, and people would
> look at them and say "But the keys aren't even in
> Alphabetical order". I
> think even tortoises would have a setup like those
> Zork style adventure
> games where you click on different things for
> different responses, just like
> what deckers see but confined to the screen, their
> matrix presence might be
> a little white arrow. As for newspapers etc., well
> they probably shouldn't
> exist as text in Shadowrun, though they do by the
> descriptions I have read.
> I suppose it is just too hard for a writer, who's
> whole world is writing, to
> imagine a world without it.

Perhaps. But I still don't think it'd happen. Not
everything can be done iconographically (can you
imagine trying to do accountancy without numbers,
hmmm?) and I think the corps and government would
realise that. Discouraging literacy in this fashion is
a BAD decision overall and also counterproductive for
big business/government etc. I can see illiteracy
being more widespread, but I can't see it being the
norm - not even semi-literacy. It simply doesn't make
sense. This "iconographic society" looks to me like
one of the things FASA thought would look cool for a
cyberpunk future and they put it in without seriously
thinking it through.

And no, I don't think accountants would work via
voice-operated computers. Please.

> You're right here, but it is like that guy asking
> for support for playing
> Shadowrun when over 30 years old. We here are
> probably all far more
> literate in text than in speech. But, most people
> don't love books like the
> average Shadowrun player does, and have trouble
> being fluent in writing.
> Have you ever read a letter from a relative who
> isn't a bookworm? Not such
> clear prose as we are used to on the list

Sure, but I'm saying with the increasing
computerisation of the world, "computer geeks" would
become the norm - hell, even my father's learning to
type on a keyboard (and he has the biggest fingers you
ever saw). People's literacy skills would improve
because they'd HAVE to in order to communicate. Sure,
you could go the voice computer route, but FASA
haven't, so how do they explain this? If you DON'T
have voice computers, then people MUST be able to type
and type effectively to communicate via computer.

> Oh, and time for my own rant. We have pretty much
> unlimited time to type a
> response to letters here (except for those stealing
> time on the computer at
> work :) ), so why all the abbreviations? Newbies
> like me are left in the
> dark when people start saying AFAIK and YMMV and
> IMNSHO. I know now what
> they mean because I found some files on the subject.
> In a chat room I can
> understand, but so what if you have to press a few
> extra keys here? The
> occasional SR instead of Shadowrun is OK, but mostly
> it's just the same
> laziness as bad spelling when you know better.
> Mind you, this list is nowhere near as bad as some.

*Doc' blushes and looks guilty..."Err, what you said."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 21
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:59:19 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!


>Perhaps. But I still don't think it'd happen. Not
>everything can be done iconographically (can you
>imagine trying to do accountancy without numbers,
>hmmm?) and I think the corps and government would
>realise that. Discouraging literacy in this fashion is
>a BAD decision overall and also counterproductive for
>big business/government etc. I can see illiteracy
>being more widespread, but I can't see it being the
>norm - not even semi-literacy. It simply doesn't make
>sense. This "iconographic society" looks to me like
>one of the things FASA thought would look cool for a
>cyberpunk future and they put it in without seriously
>thinking it through.
>
>And no, I don't think accountants would work via
>voice-operated computers. Please.
>
>Doc'


Accountants and such would be literate, but I think it would become more of
a job skill than a universal one. People are generally lazy, give them a
choice between a book and a TV show, and most people choose the TV show
(nobody here, I'm sure. We all know the book will be better 10 times out of
10). There's no way I'd type if I could just speak into the computer (the
tech exists, but its a bit of a joke at the moment). Already we are seeing a
severe drop in numerical skills, my mother and many others of her generation
are nearly as fast as a calculator in working out complex sums in their
heads. I don't think writing would disappear, but in the future I think most
people _will_ only be semi-literate, in the Shadowrun world or the real one.
Anyway, only time will tell, I suppose.
Message no. 22
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:06:46 -0800 (PST)
> Accountants and such would be literate, but I think
> it would become more of
> a job skill than a universal one. People are
> generally lazy, give them a
> choice between a book and a TV show, and most people
> choose the TV show
> (nobody here, I'm sure. We all know the book will be
> better 10 times out of
> 10). There's no way I'd type if I could just speak
> into the computer (the
> tech exists, but its a bit of a joke at the moment).
> Already we are seeing a
> severe drop in numerical skills, my mother and many
> others of her generation
> are nearly as fast as a calculator in working out
> complex sums in their
> heads. I don't think writing would disappear, but in
> the future I think most
> people _will_ only be semi-literate, in the
> Shadowrun world or the real one.
> Anyway, only time will tell, I suppose.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this
one. I've decided to make a stand, though. :) I'm
purging separate read/write skill levels from my
games. Take that, illiteracy! :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 23
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:33:12 +0900
On 3/24/00 2:06 PM, Rand Ratinac at docwagon101@*****.com wrote:

> Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this
> one. I've decided to make a stand, though. :) I'm
> purging separate read/write skill levels from my
> games. Take that, illiteracy! :)

Wahoo! If only it were that easy in the real world. :)

This isn't quite the same issue, but from my own experience as a teacher
I've added the following house rule to my campaigns. If a character has
sufficient educational background, he/she can *reverse* the correlation
between read/write and listen/speak. That is, you pay for the read/write
and get listen/speak at half that value. This is for those characters who
may have studied a language but never practiced speaking it. Judging from
my English students, that's a very common situation nowadays. I doubt it'd
be the same in the Sixth World, but like I said, it's only for characters
with an appropriate educational background. I've also never had a player
actually take this option :) but I thought I'd leave it there for them.

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
Add'l addresses: djmoose@***.com, moose@******.princeton.edu
Things never go wrong. They just don't always go according to plan.

I know how to have fun, but how exactly does one Wang Chung?
Message no. 24
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:39:09 +0100
According to Simon Fuller, at 14:59 on 24 Mar 00, the word on the street
was...

> Accountants and such would be literate, but I think it would become more of
> a job skill than a universal one.

So you'd get adverts reading something like, "Now hiring accountants.
Minimum 2 years' experience; knowledge of Excel 60 Professional and
reading skills a plus."

> People are generally lazy, give them a choice between a book and a TV
> show, and most people choose the TV show (nobody here, I'm sure. We all
> know the book will be better 10 times out of 10).

FWIW, I'd probably choose the TV show, because I can read the book when
the TV show will be over -- best of both worlds :)

> There's no way I'd type if I could just speak into the computer (the
> tech exists, but its a bit of a joke at the moment).

I had a great time when my father tried out some speech recognition
software a few year ago :)

> Already we are seeing a severe drop in numerical skills, my mother and
> many others of her generation are nearly as fast as a calculator in
> working out complex sums in their heads.

While many of the people I went to high school with (that between 7 and 13
years ago) frequently pulled out a calculator to add 11 to 3.5... I must
confess that I sometimes catch myself doing similar things, but I try not
to :)

> I don't think writing would disappear, but in the future I think most
> people _will_ only be semi-literate, in the Shadowrun world or the real
> one. Anyway, only time will tell, I suppose.

It depends on how important reading is in society, I guess. If everything
possible gets iconized, you only have to be able to read the things that
actually get written down (like names and simple instructions), but
nothing more unless you want to read. That's the direction FASA has taken
with SR3, I think.

Also, does anyone else notice that very few players put more points into
R/W skills than the ones they get for free? I hardly ever see a character
with, say, English 4, R/W 4.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:05:15 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!


>snipped<

Also, does anyone else notice that very few players put more points into
R/W skills than the ones they get for free? I hardly ever see a character
with, say, English 4, R/W 4.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Its a sad fact, can't kill anyone with reading, the pen being mightier than
the sword notwithstanding :) It has no practical use in the game, so most
would just want the skills that are giong to keep them alive. Even I have to
admit that my background heavy characters do this, I wanted to give my
character the Lambada skill, but ended up compromising with Tribal Dance as
a Centering skill. Not reading, but the same usefulness in a game.
Message no. 26
From: Jinx jinx@*******.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:00:14 -0600
At 04:05 AM 3/24/00, you wrote:

>Also, does anyone else notice that very few players put more points into
>R/W skills than the ones they get for free? I hardly ever see a character
>with, say, English 4, R/W 4.

Yah :o) Occasionally I raise it with my magically-active characters, for
the purposes of research - hunting out books in a library and reading up on
stuff. You really really really want to make sure you are understanding it
correctly before you try it out. Or if I have a character who is a
bookworm, or who has an interest in literature, calligraphy, or something
else with an emphasis on words. Usually then it is to supplement a hobby.

Jinx

http://www.redrival.com/jmenning/roleplaying/sr.html
Message no. 27
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:30:49 -0500
Jinx wrote:
>
> At 04:05 AM 3/24/00, someone wrote:
>
> >Also, does anyone else notice that very few players put more points into
> >R/W skills than the ones they get for free? I hardly ever see a character
> >with, say, English 4, R/W 4.
>
> Yah :o) Occasionally I raise it with my magically-active characters, for
> the purposes of research - hunting out books in a library and reading up on
> stuff. You really really really want to make sure you are understanding it
> correctly before you try it out. Or if I have a character who is a
> bookworm, or who has an interest in literature, calligraphy, or something
> else with an emphasis on words. Usually then it is to supplement a hobby.

One of my characters has Japanese at 2 and R/W Japaneses at 4. I did
this to represent understanding Japanese but having difficulty
speaking it.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 28
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:08:09 +0100
According to Jinx, at 7:00 on 23 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> >Also, does anyone else notice that very few players put more points into
> >R/W skills than the ones they get for free? I hardly ever see a character
> >with, say, English 4, R/W 4.
>
> Yah :o) Occasionally I raise it with my magically-active characters, for
> the purposes of research - hunting out books in a library and reading up on
> stuff. You really really really want to make sure you are understanding it
> correctly before you try it out. Or if I have a character who is a
> bookworm, or who has an interest in literature, calligraphy, or something
> else with an emphasis on words. Usually then it is to supplement a hobby.

I forgot to add to my question that my decker has Japanese 1, Read/Write 2
(bought by spending 1 point on Japanese and 2 on R/W, BTW, not with the
reverse method someone suggested earlier) because I figure that he gets to
deal with Japanese-language files a lot more than he does with Japanese-
speaking people. Reading Japanese so you can find paydata is a lot more
important than being able to ask directions to the nearest railway station
:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:00:34 EST
In a message dated 3/24/2000 5:02:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jinx@*******.com writes:

> Yah :o) Occasionally I raise it with my magically-active characters, for
> the purposes of research - hunting out books in a library and reading up
on
> stuff. You really really really want to make sure you are understanding it
> correctly before you try it out. Or if I have a character who is a
> bookworm, or who has an interest in literature, calligraphy, or something
> else with an emphasis on words. Usually then it is to supplement a hobby.

I find the same thing... And its a side effect of the gaming system. You
can do one or two things really well, or a lot of things not too well. The
net result is that people tend to pump most of their points into skills they
know they'll need. And since R/W skills are automatically half of the
language skills, its like background B/R skills... Just improve the main
skill and the associated background skill increases with it. If you improve
the related background skill, then you have to spend karma on it to keep
improving it.

Its also important to note that Mike M and co didnt intend for it to be a
major problem... they note that R/W skills only come into play when quick or
carefull reading or writing is important to the run. The only thing I DON'T
agree with is that they declared that R/W skills don't improve with the
language skill. I find that the more you learn of the language, the more of
the written language you understand.

Net result? Unless you have a campaing where the R/W skill is increadibly
important, and your making R/W rolls all the time, they are a 'forgotten'
skill... One which you have, but never use, so you never think about
improving it, either at charecter creation or during play.

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 30
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:00:04 CST
"Simon Fuller" <sfuller@******.com.au> said:
>Also, does anyone else notice that very few players put more points into
>R/W skills than the ones they get for free? I hardly ever see a character
>with, say, English 4, R/W 4.


Call me a freak, but Grim has R/W 6 in Sperethiel, Japanese, and English.
He's got the languages at 8 (they started at 6).

But then again, thats because of Grim's background.

Grim Shear
"Language is a gift. Use it wisely."
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 31
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:13:37 +0100
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:33:12 +0900
Subject: Re: Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!
From: Dan Grabon <djmoose@******.kornet.net>

>Wahoo! If only it were that easy in the real world. :)
>
>This isn't quite the same issue, but from my own experience as a teacher
>I've added the following house rule to my campaigns. If a character has
>sufficient educational background, he/she can *reverse* the correlation
>between read/write and listen/speak. That is, you pay for the read/write
>and get listen/speak at half that value. This is for those characters who
>may have studied a language but never practiced speaking it. Judging from
>my English students, that's a very common situation nowadays. I doubt it'd
>be the same in the Sixth World, but like I said, it's only for characters
>with an appropriate educational background. I've also never had a player
>actually take this option :) but I thought I'd leave it there for them.
>
>-moose

Very true. Let's take the nearest example, i.e. me and Sir William
Shakespeare language. I can read almost anything, write with a passable
grammar, but spoken language is... an entirely different (and tricky)
matter. Doc's PC "Pierre LePain (TM)" is nowhere near to reality. Nice
try, though. Now I know how to spell a bad french accent ;).

Back to topic: I think that languages are mostly an educationnal issue.
I use therefore the following house rule, replacing the educationnal
(background) edges:

Edge language skill points

Illiterate spoken Int*1.5, no R/W. Too bad chummer.
Uneducated (default) spoken Int*1.5, R/W at half. Represents
primary school or home/self education.
High school, technical Int*2. Native: spoken=R/W. Others: R/W or spoken
prevails, depending on background.
College Int*3, as above.

Now, a little support for written language. First, who need most
educated people: corps. And who run the schools: also corps. From the
corps point of vue, written language has a big advantage: it is
efficient. It is compact, flexible, faster to read than a spoken text,
and the message it convey is much easier to integrate than speak
(reading is a non-linear process, jumping back and forth from keywords
to already-seen schemes, in order to understand. Not the case with
spoken discourses). And efficiency is primordial for a corp. They would
be likely to teach their future employees how to be good and flexible
employees.

>From the wage slave point of vue: your superior likes, if not
well-written, clear reports without misunderstandings, and not a
disconstruted oral rambling about your results. Possibility to skim
above is also appreciated. You should then make your best to master the
tongue used in your dear corporation.

Since global society state is dictated by the corporate world, I don't
see writing slowly disappearing. Basic maths yes, especially with the
broadcast use of credsticks: counting money were their primary use.

Anyway, I'm going to stand with Doc on this one. Shadowrun's world is
already too sad to be deprived of literacy :(.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Back ontopic....Spelling, was Please!, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!