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Message no. 1
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Bioware under SR3
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:24:01 -0400
Okay. Someone mentioned a while back that FASAMike doesn't like
the way bioware was handled in Shadowtech, and is probably looking to change
it in Man & Machine. I'm inclined to agree, since while I think the bioware
is cool, and Wu did a kick-ass job with the book, the creation of Body Index
as separate from Essence was an unnecessary complication of the system.
Anyway, my real question is...does anyone have any idea what they're
going to do with it?
And while I'm at it, can someone with a copy of SR1 tell me whether
or not the Filtration System existed as cyberware in that edition? I'm
trying to figure out whether it went from bioware in Shadowtech, which
was an SR1 sourcebook, to cyberware in SR2 - the 'Filtration System' is
pretty much identical to the Tracheal Filter and Nephritic Screen in
concept, though slightly different in game mechanics.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 2
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:22:09 +1000
> And while I'm at it, can someone with a copy of SR1 tell me whether
>or not the Filtration System existed as cyberware in that edition? I'm
>trying to figure out whether it went from bioware in Shadowtech, which
>was an SR1 sourcebook, to cyberware in SR2 - the 'Filtration System' is
>pretty much identical to the Tracheal Filter and Nephritic Screen in
>concept, though slightly different in game mechanics.
>
> --Sean

Yes the Filtration System existed as cyberware in First Edition. It's
listed on page 128 of SR1.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.asgard.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 3
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:30:56 EDT
In a message dated 10/2/98 12:24:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:

> Anyway, my real question is...does anyone have any idea what they're
> going to do with it?

The impression I got was that Mike has no idea what to do with it yet.

-Bandit
Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:52:19 -0400
On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 12:30:56PM -0400, M. Sean Martinez wrote:
> In a message dated 10/2/98 12:24:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:
> > Anyway, my real question is...does anyone have any idea what they're
> > going to do with it?
> The impression I got was that Mike has no idea what to do with it yet.

Hmm. In that case, does anyone have any suggestions? :)

I think they need to unify the Body Index and Essence ratings,
just for purposes of simplicity. They measure largely the same thing,
so there's no reason to have two numbers, especially given what an
abstract concept 'Essence' is. However, it makes sense to me that
bioware would cost less Essence than a comparable-function cyberimplant,
since living tissue should cause less 'astral disruption' or whatnot.
The tradeoffs between bioware and cyberware need to be made
more clear. Bioware, for instance, is organic, and can actually heal
on its own if damaged...assuming you live that long. In fact, magical
healing ought to be able to repair bioware, since it's just another part
of your body. Cyberware needs to be repaired by hand, but has its own
advantages: it can interface with electronic devices (datajack, smartlink,
builtin devices in cyberlimbs, head radios...these all /require/ cyberware),
and it's probably easier and faster to build, less picky about who it's
installed in, and more likely to be available on the cheap.
Making bioware cost Essence would have an effect on 'ware-heavy
characters like street samurai, who'd be able to pack fewer toys into their
chassis. That has game balance issues, which would need to be addressed.

I don't know...what do people think?

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 5
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:50:19 -0400
At 12:52 PM 10-2-98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 12:30:56PM -0400, M. Sean Martinez wrote:
>> In a message dated 10/2/98 12:24:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:
>> > Anyway, my real question is...does anyone have any idea what
they're
>> > going to do with it?
>> The impression I got was that Mike has no idea what to do with it yet.
>
> Hmm. In that case, does anyone have any suggestions? :)

<snip bioware ideas>

> I don't know...what do people think?
>
> --Sean

I wouldn't really want to see bioware just turn into a biological version
of cyber, which is what charging Essence would do, IMHO. (I'll admit I've
also liked that fact that orks and trolls do better by bioware than the
other races; there should be *some* biotech advantages in being bigger and
tougher. ;) ) For that matter, I've never been that fond of the idea that
magicians have to pay Essence for it when others don't (Magic rating, yes,
but not Essence). However, seeing that the DLOH made a specific point of
playing that aspect up in Cybertechnology, I unfortunately don't see it
going away.

However, interpreting the Biosystem Overstress rule has always been a pain
to me, especially when dealing with mixed bio/cyber enhancements.

So, if *I* were called upon to recreate bioware, here's how I'd do it:
Keep the Body Index, elminate mages paying Essence for the stuff but keep
the Magic loss, eliminate or simplify the Biosystem Overstress rules,
tighten up the rules for interactions between bio and cyber, and of course
update and expand the items available.

Also, I'd think about interfacing bio and cyber. For example, how about a
cybernetic trigger for an adrenal pump? Keeps the pump from triggering by
itself, and allows the pump to be triggered consciously as a Free Action.
Also enhances the pump's triggering reflex so that you get +2 on the
duration roll, not to exceed the maximum. Costs maybe .25 E and 3000Y.

On the subject of magicians and bioware: What happens when a mage with
bioware who's spent Essence on it burns out magically? Do they stop taking
Essence from bioware installation? If so, what about the Essence they've
already lost? Is it "freed up" for cyber implantation, or still tied up in
the bioware? What if the bioware is removed? Removed and reimplanted?
Removed and replaced by cyber? (Now do you see why I hate the "magicians
and bioware" rule?)

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:55:48 -0500
On Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:24:01 -0400 Sean McCrohan
<mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU> writes:
> Okay. Someone mentioned a while back that FASAMike doesn't like
>the way bioware was handled in Shadowtech, and is probably looking to
change
>it in Man & Machine. I'm inclined to agree, since while I think the
bioware
>is cool, and Wu did a kick-ass job with the book, the creation of Body
Index
>as separate from Essence was an unnecessary complication of the system.
> Anyway, my real question is...does anyone have any idea what
they're
>going to do with it?
<SNIP>

Actually, I doubt Mike M. has anything more than brainstorming right now.
I don't think any specifics were discussed at GenCon so if anyone DOES
know, I imagine he/she/it/they can't tell. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 7
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 01:34:27 -0500
> Actually, I doubt Mike M. has anything more than brainstorming right now.
> I don't think any specifics were discussed at GenCon so if anyone DOES
> know, I imagine he/she/it/they can't tell. :)

I wish some of the GenConners (TWWTGC) would speak up here, because I
definitely remember some comments from them (attributed to Mike). I seem to
remember someone saying he didn't like that mages had to pay twice for
bioware (whatever that means). I'd have to guess that this is analogous to
someone's suggestion that they just clean up the Body Index/Essence/Magic
Rating rule.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 03:09:20 -0400
At 01:34 AM 10/4/98 -0500, XaOs [David Goth] wrote these timeless words:
>> Actually, I doubt Mike M. has anything more than brainstorming right now.
>> I don't think any specifics were discussed at GenCon so if anyone DOES
>> know, I imagine he/she/it/they can't tell. :)
>
>I wish some of the GenConners (TWWTGC) would speak up here, because I
>definitely remember some comments from them (attributed to Mike).
>
There were specific issues with Bioware, but didn;t mention anything
specific about how to fix things at Gen Con.

>I seem to remember someone saying he didn't like that mages had to pay
>twice for bioware (whatever that means). I'd have to guess that this is
>analogous to someone's suggestion that they just clean up the Body
>Index/Essence/Magic Rating rule.
>
Well, it wasn;t so much that mages were paying twice for Bioware, it was
that there was ONLY a penalty for the magically active, and nothing for
anyone else.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
=======================================================

"Can the Gummi Worms really live in peace with the Marshmallow Chicks?"
-- Pinky, "Pinky and the Brain"
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:05:50 -0700
:> Actually, I doubt Mike M. has anything more than brainstorming right
now.
:> I don't think any specifics were discussed at GenCon so if anyone DOES
:> know, I imagine he/she/it/they can't tell. :)
:
:I wish some of the GenConners (TWWTGC) would speak up here, because I
:definitely remember some comments from them (attributed to Mike). I seem
to
:remember someone saying he didn't like that mages had to pay twice for
:bioware (whatever that means). I'd have to guess that this is analogous
to
:someone's suggestion that they just clean up the Body Index/Essence/Magic
:Rating rule.
:


Yes, afaik, Mike's peeved with the double whammy mages get (he went so
far as to imply, if not state, that Karl Wu hated magic and intionally
shafted magical characters on bioware, as well as crafting an ill
conceived view of the cause thereof). IIRC, he also said bioware has no
"real" cost to mundanes, and should.
In any case, I think the "problems" with bioware are ones we can all
see. The "magic loss, not essence" patch is just that, and a better
solution should be found. It also would probably be a good thing if their
was some cumulative penalty to maxing out in BOTH bioware and cyber- as
is, only magical; healing suffers. I suppose BI could also cause social
penalties- whoop te do.

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:21:17 -0400
On Sun, Oct 04, 1998 at 09:05:50AM -0700, Mongoose wrote:
> In any case, I think the "problems" with bioware are ones we can all
> see. The "magic loss, not essence" patch is just that, and a better
> solution should be found. It also would probably be a good thing if their
> was some cumulative penalty to maxing out in BOTH bioware and cyber- as
> is, only magical; healing suffers. I suppose BI could also cause social
> penalties- whoop te do.

Actually, aside from magical issues, /Essence/ doesn't have much
effect on mundanes, either. I'd sort of like to see that changed, though
it would have had to have been done in the main book. IMHO, while
Essence does represent a magical sort of 'how well does your body match
your aura', it also should represent the more mundane notion of how
fragile your biosystem is. The human body's a robust and complex system,
and when you frag with it, you throw things out of whack. I'm of the opinion
that an uncybered mundane should have some medical advantages over a cybered
one (not coutning the benefits the cyberware itself might be designed to
give). Heavilly cybered characters should have much higher rates of medical
complications when they get injured - in short, penalties on the medical
recovery roll. Maybe have people roll, instead of Body, the smaller of
Body or (Essence * 2). That wouldn't make healing any easier for the average
joe, but would make it HARDER for someone with an Essence of, oh, 1 and a Body
of 9.
And no, I don't hate Street Samurai. I think cyber's kinda cool.
But I also think there should be some give and take, and while Essence is the
primary balancing factor for cyber, it doesn't really DO much, until you
completely run out of it. There's no incentive to keep Essence higher than
0.1 if you're not magically active, once you've decided to lower it at all.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 11
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:35:30 +1000
> Actually, aside from magical issues, /Essence/ doesn't have much
>effect on mundanes, either. I'd sort of like to see that changed, though
>it would have had to have been done in the main book. IMHO, while
>Essence does represent a magical sort of 'how well does your body match
>your aura', it also should represent the more mundane notion of how
>fragile your biosystem is. The human body's a robust and complex system,
>and when you frag with it, you throw things out of whack. I'm of the opinion
>that an uncybered mundane should have some medical advantages over a cybered
>one (not coutning the benefits the cyberware itself might be designed to
>give). Heavilly cybered characters should have much higher rates of medical
>complications when they get injured - in short, penalties on the medical
>recovery roll. Maybe have people roll, instead of Body, the smaller of
>Body or (Essence * 2). That wouldn't make healing any easier for the average
>joe, but would make it HARDER for someone with an Essence of, oh, 1 and a
Body
>of 9.

I gotta agree with you here. There are too many problems with medically
treating a character whose entire body is riddled with dozens of small
pieces of metal and plastic. Various metabolic or system-wide alterations
to the body will also screw with the dosages of standard medtech. I mean,
someone with a system tailored to counteract all chemicals is going to
counteract all those wonderful medicines that could possibly keep him
alive. There are hundreds of other examples you could sight, none of which
I'm going to bother doing because I'm sure you can all do it yourselves.
As for how to implement an Essence modifier into the existing Healing
system, why not just use a target number modifier? It's easier, quicker,
and simpler. As a suggestion, how about +[3-(Essence/2)] as the modifier.
A normal Essence-6 character will have no penalty, will a chromed to the
gills sammy would have +3 penalty. Of course, a system more like the
Cyberware and Social Interaction rules (page 93 of SR3) would probably work
a lot better - with the cyberware that replaces more of the natural body
giving further penalties to the test and cyberware that replaces less of
the natural body giving... well... less (duh).
Of course, that raises the point of how much cyber replacements affect
healing.... See my earlier post for details.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.asgard.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 12
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:20:55 -0700
:>The human body's a robust and complex system,
:>and when you frag with it, you throw things out of whack.

Cyberware is, I think, genrically assumed to muck with the body in ways
that DON'T throw its bio functions out of whack. For example, getting a
replcement limb is sometimes a good idea, because it CAN'T be rejected for
imunological reasons.

:>I'm of the opinion
:>that an uncybered mundane should have some medical advantages over a
cybered
:>one (not coutning the benefits the cyberware itself might be designed to
:>give).

Yeah, the primary one being theat doctors will know what they are dealing
with an not accidentally cut something important when treating you.
Cyberware would interfere with (uninformed) treatment and in some cases
healing, I agree. Damaged cyber might be an even bigger problem for the
body.

: I gotta agree with you here. There are too many problems with
medically
:treating a character whose entire body is riddled with dozens of small
:pieces of metal and plastic. Various metabolic or system-wide
alterations
:to the body will also screw with the dosages of standard medtech. I
mean,
:someone with a system tailored to counteract all chemicals is going to
:counteract all those wonderful medicines that could possibly keep him
:alive. There are hundreds of other examples you could sight, none of
which
:I'm going to bother doing because I'm sure you can all do it yourselves.

Bioware, IMO, would in many cases do the same thing; it would alter the
bodies homeostasis or increase the stress on its sytems in ways that would
intefere with healing. That might be less of a problem for a doc to
handle, since its is still "BIO-tech", and could in some cases
(suprathyriods) be countered (with thyroid supressants, in that case).


: Of course, that raises the point of how much cyber replacements affect
:healing.... See my earlier post for details.
:

Definitely an issue to consider, and one that has come up in our game
several times. It is, unfortunately, hard to deal accurately except on a
case by case basis. Like better cyberlimb-replacement rules, it calls out
for a damage location system. A blanket penalty, negatable by appropriate
skills and diagnostics, would be fitting, though.

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:27:33 -0500
>>... . Heavilly cybered characters should have much higher rates of medical
>>complications when they get injured - in short, penalties on the medical
>>recovery roll. Maybe have people roll, instead of Body, the smaller of
>>Body or (Essence * 2). That wouldn't make healing any easier for the average
>>joe, but would make it HARDER for someone with an Essence of, oh, 1 and a
>Body
>>of 9.


I may be out of the loop here, but has anyone read heal or treat? The
lower an essence the HARDER it is to heal them. I don't know about you,
but I've been in campaigns where a pure human detective, who was lucky to
get two actions a round, be the "hero" because the street sam could never
be healed. If you have a street sam that has an essence of .9 or lower
(and the mass majority I've seen are like that), then that mage needs a
TN10 to heal a box rather than the essence 6 guy who only needs a TN4.
With that said, I must assume you're talking specifically about medical
treatment. Now, as a balane, there is a chance that cybernetics/bionetics
can be damaged when the character is damaged. So I think the balance of it
all is that a mage and normal "mundane" character doesn't have to worry
about all of the nice toys getting shot up and having to replace them.
That hits characters where it hurts, in the wallet. When
cybernetics/bionetics can be damamged, I think that takes care of any
unbalancing.
I don't think healing with cybernetics should take longer, harder, or be
any different. Look at today with bone replacements and other procedures,
you really don't have to worry about rejection of the replacement (as long
as it is not organic). I think that a person should just be able to heal
normally around the cybernetics. Bionetics is a different story when you
think about it. Today with organ transplants, you have to worry about
rejection. The level of medical advancements from in 2066 may be able to
render rejection moot, but I have to think there's a fundamental difference
between the way cybernetics effects the body compared to bionetics.
Magic is a different mode of reasoning. As of now I have I don't think
there's any reason to question the relationship between it and cybernetics
or Bionetics. Though in all honesty, I still have a problem with bionetics
effecting a chracters magic rating. But, I'll accept it as nothing more
than balancing. If a mage could add bionetics without hurting magic, then
a mage would be even more powerful and upset any symbolance of balance.
Ofcourse this is only my opinion. If I miss understood anything, or got
something totally wrong, let me know.


Ron
#include disclamer.h
Message no. 14
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:23:58 -0400
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Mongoose wrote:

<snip>
->:someone's suggestion that they just clean up the Body Index/Essence/Magic
->:Rating rule.
->
-> Yes, afaik, Mike's peeved with the double whammy mages get (he went so
->far as to imply, if not state, that Karl Wu hated magic and intionally
->shafted magical characters on bioware, as well as crafting an ill
->conceived view of the cause thereof). IIRC, he also said bioware has no
->"real" cost to mundanes, and should.
-> In any case, I think the "problems" with bioware are ones we can all
->see. The "magic loss, not essence" patch is just that, and a better
->solution should be found. It also would probably be a good thing if their
->was some cumulative penalty to maxing out in BOTH bioware and cyber- as
->is, only magical; healing suffers. I suppose BI could also cause social
->penalties- whoop te do.

Let's see how close we can come on the list? I've noticed nearly
no one on list has problems throwing their two cents in.. .]:-)
Ok, for mages, the Magic Loss not essence is well known as a good
patch, what if a character has 2 essence and 2 Body Index worth of Bio.
Is it the general consensus that that mage should have a magic rating of 4
or 2? (I vote 4, just because that's what I think, otherwise mages are
still getting doubly screwed, just not with essence).
For mundanes: The standard rules for increasing Body Index over
the Body Rating of the character still apply (and give penalties). In
addition, For every two points of Body Index, raise the TN for healing by
one (due to pre-existing body stress). Social Penalties: I'll have to
disagree, especially as Bioware is supposed to be far more "subtle" than
cyberware and giving social penalties based on it would defeat the
purpose. Hmmmm.... I can't think of anything else, ok folks: shoot!

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 15
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:55:03 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-05 09:15:45 EDT, you write:

<< Let's see how close we can come on the list? I've noticed nearly
no one on list has problems throwing their two cents in.. .]:-) >>

<<Snipage>>

I really dont like the mages getting zapped in their magic scores for using
Bioware. The simple fact of the matter remains that Bioware doesnt cost
essance for mundanes, so why should it cost for Mages? Bioware is pretty wiz,
but I would see it as the only way for a mage to try and even the odds of his
getting fragged when the drek finaly hits the fan, myself. However, let us
not forget that that sort of major surgery CAN cause a redution in magic
rating regardless of if bioware was being installed or not. Say Double the TN
the charecter would have to roll to avoid Magic loss after surgury? This
would pretty much balance that out since most Mages would think twice about
the odds of loosing some of their Mojo. And, having re-read material at the
start of Shadowteck, a Mage installing the 2 bi worth of bio should only loose
2 magic points.

As far as mundanes go, I would think that there should be something more
dangerous than just a +1 for TN's after one exceeds his (unaugmented) body.
Say having to roll once a week at a tn of 3+(amount that BI exceeds Body) or
loose one box of damage from your condition monitor (these boxes can be
regained by a week's stay PER BOX in a clinic where they tinker with your
implants to solve the overstress Magical healing does not help). Hmm. Use
Body - (excess of Body Index) dice for the roll, and you really exceed your
body at your own risk.
Message no. 16
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:25:42 -0500
>I really dont like the mages getting zapped in their magic scores for using
>Bioware. The simple fact of the matter remains that Bioware doesnt cost
>essance for mundanes, so why should it cost for Mages?



I would say for a better game balance. Having played a cybered mage, I
know first hand how powerful a character like that MAY be over a
non-cybered mage or a fully cybered Street sam. For a cybered mage, I
think it is a good balance to reduce their magic rating. On the same
token, many things can be done by bioware that mimics cybernetics. To not
give a penalty to mages for that really opens things up for a "Best of both
worlds" mage. If my mages could load up on bioware, IMHO, a fully decked
street sam would be at a disadvantage.


Ron


#include disclamer.h
Message no. 17
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:29:13 +1000
> Making bioware cost Essence would have an effect on
> 'ware-heavy
> characters like street samurai, who'd be able to pack fewer toys into
> their
> chassis. That has game balance issues, which would need to be
> addressed.
>
> I don't know...what do people think?
>
> --Sean
>
Bad idea.

Someone kill me, but I think that I'd have to agree with a concept Adam
Getchall (at least, I think it was that Adam) was espousing a while
back. He thinks Sammies are limited by the new skill rules. I agree, but
I also think the other character types (especially mages) are limited
just as much by other new rules. However, doing this would DEFINITELY
screw sammies and other cyber-intensive characters.

Personally, I think we need to keep the Body Index, if only for this
fact - apart from TWO, count 'em, two items of bioware, which make the
users eat heaps and one (of the two previously mentioned) which makes
the user hyperactive, none of them should really have a game effect as
far as social reactions go - but they will if they cost essence.

*Doc' wonders why his tailored pheromones, designed to drive the women
wild, cause them to avoid him like the plague.*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 18
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:29:22 -0400
Quoting Ratinac, Rand (NSW) (RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU):
>
> Personally, I think we need to keep the Body Index, if only for this
> fact - apart from TWO, count 'em, two items of bioware, which make the
> users eat heaps and one (of the two previously mentioned) which makes
> the user hyperactive, none of them should really have a game effect as
> far as social reactions go - but they will if they cost essence.

Actually, I disagree. If you read the fine print on that rule in
SR3 (p 93), they suggest applying no social penalty for cyberware that
isn't visible (or produce visible effects). Most (but not all) bioware
falls under that category. Synaptic Accelerators are a borderline case -
the book says that everything that increases reflexes gets a social penalty,
but on the other hand, synaptic accelerators are more subtle than wires.
The instant you demonstrated your augmented muscles, though, I'd hit
you with that penalty, in spades, even though it's bioware, not cyberware.
The norm you're talking to doesn't really care whether it came out of a vat
or a machine shop, all he cares about is that it's unnaturaland scary :)
So, a few of them DON'T currently have social effects, but should,
and if they cost Essence, those that shouldn't, still wouldn't. I'll admit
that I'm not 100% behind the idea of replacing Body Index with Essence -
there are bound to be problems - but I don't think that this is one
of those problems.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 19
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:12:14 -0700
: Actually, I disagree. If you read the fine print on that rule in
:SR3 (p 93), they suggest applying no social penalty for cyberware that
:isn't visible (or produce visible effects). Most (but not all) bioware
:falls under that category. Synaptic Accelerators are a borderline case -
:the book says that everything that increases reflexes gets a social
penalty,
:but on the other hand, synaptic accelerators are more subtle than wires.
:The instant you demonstrated your augmented muscles, though, I'd hit
:you with that penalty, in spades, even though it's bioware, not
cyberware.
:The norm you're talking to doesn't really care whether it came out of a
vat
:or a machine shop, all he cares about is that it's unnaturaland scary :)

And how does he "know" it's not magic, like that practiced by a
physical adept or confered by health spells? That is one of my major
peaves with the cyberware (and racism_ social penalties ; for some reason,
nobody has any trouble interaating socially with the guy who can't be
diasrmed, has superhuman capabilty, and has devoted a large portion of his
life to something most people will never understand, much less do. Sore,
a mage doesn't have to revela that is his magical, but he often does, and
in alarming ways. Heck, they get a BONUS on intimidation tests, why not a
minus on "make nice" tests, at least with the (suposedly many) people who
hate mages?

Mongoose
Message no. 20
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:53:08 -0400
At 01:12 AM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote:

> And how does he "know" it's not magic, like that practiced by a
>physical adept or confered by health spells? That is one of my major
>peaves with the cyberware (and racism_ social penalties ; for some reason,
>nobody has any trouble interaating socially with the guy who can't be
>diasrmed, has superhuman capabilty, and has devoted a large portion of his
>life to something most people will never understand, much less do. Sore,
>a mage doesn't have to revela that is his magical, but he often does, and
>in alarming ways. Heck, they get a BONUS on intimidation tests, why not a
>minus on "make nice" tests, at least with the (suposedly many) people who
>hate mages?

Well, with adepts, I strongly suspect that their abilities simply appear
more natural. I mean, an adept with Increased Reflexes +3d6 isn't going to
be as jumpy as the samurai with Wired 3, they aren't going to be constantly
hyper, that sort of thing. They just suddenly blur into motion.

BUT regardless of that, I do think that once magical abilities are
revealed, be they adept or magician abilities, they should suffer/gain the
same sorts of penalties that cybermonsters do.

If I toss off a fireball, then walk up to the bartender and ask for a
drink, I *expect* him to react differently than if I simply walk up to him
without displaying magical ability.

Perhaps something for MitS? It makes sense to me as at least an optional
rule.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:53:48 -0400
Okay, here's my basic concept for how bioware could be revised for SR3.
It's built around the concept that it's natural, or at least more natural
than cyberware, but it still causes physical strain on the body and it does
make the body different from the aural template.

1) Bioware does not cause Essence loss for magicians. Neither does it
cause Magic loss, though loss from the surgery is still a possibility.

2) Bioware reduces, because of the bodily strain, maximum life expectancy.
The rest of the body just burns out faster. Exact reduction TBD.

3) Bioware increases mundane healing difficulty and therefor time. This is
due to not only the element of bodily strain, but also the fact that a
heavily altered heart, for example, is going to require different and more
specialized care than a generic, stock heart. Perhaps +1 TN for each point
of Body Index, halved for Clonal Bioware.

4) Because of the strain on the body, Bioware also reduces Damage Overflow
by one point for every two points of Body Index. An exhausted system
simply can't fight off death as well.

5) In regards to magicians. Bioware does alter the body versus the aural
template, but not radically. Impose an additional +1 Modifier to Drain
Resistance for every point of Body Index. Clonal Bioware halves this.

Of course, all numbers are subject to alteration and aren't hard and fast
and haven't been playtested; they could go up or down.

But it allows Bioware to remain different from Cyberware, allows magicians
to have it but not give them undue power.

It's an idea...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 22
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:47:39 -0400
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

->Okay, here's my basic concept for how bioware could be revised for SR3.
->It's built around the concept that it's natural, or at least more natural
->than cyberware, but it still causes physical strain on the body and it does
->make the body different from the aural template.
->
->1) Bioware does not cause Essence loss for magicians. Neither does it
->cause Magic loss, though loss from the surgery is still a possibility.

Hmmm.... I suppose this is effective if the Magic Attribute is
based on the mage's ability to interact with the astral plane, rather than
being based in the mage's body as a whole (after all, an initiate with an
essence of 1 can still have a Magic Attribute of 6, which is just as good
as an uninitiated mage who never lost a point of essence). I also like
what you did later to balance it out.

->2) Bioware reduces, because of the bodily strain, maximum life expectancy.
->The rest of the body just burns out faster. Exact reduction TBD.

Hmmmmm.... I don't like this part. Does cyberware reduce life
expectancy? I don't seem to recall anything about it.

->3) Bioware increases mundane healing difficulty and therefor time. This is
->due to not only the element of bodily strain, but also the fact that a
->heavily altered heart, for example, is going to require different and more
->specialized care than a generic, stock heart. Perhaps +1 TN for each point
->of Body Index, halved for Clonal Bioware.

What about Cultured? Or is that another name for Clonal?

->4) Because of the strain on the body, Bioware also reduces Damage Overflow
->by one point for every two points of Body Index. An exhausted system
->simply can't fight off death as well.

I agree from a GM standpoint, but I'd like to see a 'real world'
argument for this. If the bio is cultured (cloned?) it wouldn't have
nearly the amount of bodily stress you seem to be implying.

->5) In regards to magicians. Bioware does alter the body versus the aural
->template, but not radically. Impose an additional +1 Modifier to Drain
->Resistance for every point of Body Index. Clonal Bioware halves this.

This works..... damn, and it's easy too.... kudos to you. Still
want to know about Cultured, though.

->Of course, all numbers are subject to alteration and aren't hard and fast
->and haven't been playtested; they could go up or down.
->
->But it allows Bioware to remain different from Cyberware, allows magicians
->to have it but not give them undue power.

Big thumbs up... I like the idea. I'm sure there's something
wrong with it that I'm missing, though... just this nagging suspicion..

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:09:58 -0400
At 02:47 PM 10/6/98 -0400, you wrote:

>->2) Bioware reduces, because of the bodily strain, maximum life expectancy.
>->The rest of the body just burns out faster. Exact reduction TBD.
>
> Hmmmmm.... I don't like this part. Does cyberware reduce life
>expectancy? I don't seem to recall anything about it.

Well, I basically just took the concept of Body Overstress and took it in a
different direction.

> What about Cultured? Or is that another name for Clonal?

Ooops. Sorry, I meant Cultured. I don't know why, but recently I've
mixing up Clonal with Cultured.

>->4) Because of the strain on the body, Bioware also reduces Damage Overflow
>->by one point for every two points of Body Index. An exhausted system
>->simply can't fight off death as well.
>
> I agree from a GM standpoint, but I'd like to see a 'real world'
>argument for this. If the bio is cultured (cloned?) it wouldn't have
>nearly the amount of bodily stress you seem to be implying.

Cultured would probably halve it.

Again, I'm basically going of the Shadowtech concept of Body Overstress,
and taking it in a different direction. It seems that bioware does cause
stress upon the rest of the "normal" body. And stress of any sort tends to
have a bad habit of shortening life span and making people more tired. But
instead of imposing Stun modifiers or something, I simply thought that this
might be another avenue.

>->5) In regards to magicians. Bioware does alter the body versus the aural
>->template, but not radically. Impose an additional +1 Modifier to Drain
>->Resistance for every point of Body Index. Clonal Bioware halves this.
>
> This works..... damn, and it's easy too.... kudos to you. Still
>want to know about Cultured, though.

Clonal=Cultured. Brain fart on my part.

> Big thumbs up... I like the idea. I'm sure there's something
>wrong with it that I'm missing, though... just this nagging suspicion..

Could be...this is the bioware I've mentioned that's been burbling away in
my skull for a few days now...I like the general concepts a lot and think
it would work. Exact numbers and application, well, that would have to be
worked over and playtested some. Perhaps my current idea is too harsh,
perhaps it's not harsh enough. Don't know.

But I'm going to propose the basic concept to Mike M. as something for Man
& Machine and state that it is something that would be in need of
playtesting...something I think I'll start doing as a "house rule" thing in
my own game.

Keep up the comments folks!!

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 24
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:10:10 -0700
:->5) In regards to magicians. Bioware does alter the body versus the
aural
:->template, but not radically. Impose an additional +1 Modifier to Drain
:->Resistance for every point of Body Index. Clonal Bioware halves this.
:
: This works..... damn, and it's easy too.... kudos to you. Still
:want to know about Cultured, though.

But for almost all adepts (who take drain only from attribute boost),
bioware would be no worse than for mundanes. It doesn't add any new
(relative) advantage adept vs samurai wise, but I think an adept with no
magic loss and a load of bioware is a bad thing.

Mongoose
Message no. 25
From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:15:23 -0400
Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US> writes:
> On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:
> ->5) In regards to magicians. Bioware does alter the body versus the aural
> ->template, but not radically. Impose an additional +1 Modifier to Drain
> ->Resistance for every point of Body Index. Clonal Bioware halves this.
>
> This works..... damn, and it's easy too.... kudos to you. Still
> want to know about Cultured, though.
>
> ->Of course, all numbers are subject to alteration and aren't hard and fast
> ->and haven't been playtested; they could go up or down.
> ->
> ->But it allows Bioware to remain different from Cyberware, allows magicians
> ->to have it but not give them undue power.
>
> Big thumbs up... I like the idea. I'm sure there's something
> wrong with it that I'm missing, though... just this nagging suspicion..

I know I've got a soft spot for Physads, but giving them the
same benefits of bioware as a razorguy with no additional penaltiies
probably isn't what you intended. ;) If centering's still around,
I'd like to suggest a penalty to centering if you have bioware.

Mark
Message no. 26
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:27:26 -0400
At 03:10 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote:

> But for almost all adepts (who take drain only from attribute boost),
>bioware would be no worse than for mundanes. It doesn't add any new
>(relative) advantage adept vs samurai wise, but I think an adept with no
>magic loss and a load of bioware is a bad thing.

And therein lies the big problem that *I* have with my own proposal. I
can't figure out how to include adepts into the theory, because otherwise
it works.

Suggestions?

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 27
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:01:47 -0400
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Mongoose wrote:

->:->5) In regards to magicians. Bioware does alter the body versus the
->aural
->:->template, but not radically. Impose an additional +1 Modifier to Drain
->:->Resistance for every point of Body Index. Clonal Bioware halves this.
->:
->: This works..... damn, and it's easy too.... kudos to you. Still
->:want to know about Cultured, though.
->
-> But for almost all adepts (who take drain only from attribute boost),
->bioware would be no worse than for mundanes. It doesn't add any new
->(relative) advantage adept vs samurai wise, but I think an adept with no
->magic loss and a load of bioware is a bad thing.

Is it any worse than a street samurai with a near-0 essence and a
load of bioware? The reflex enhancements wouldn't be cumulative, bioware
still wouldn't allow the adept to 'merge' with technology the way a street
samurai does, Hmmm... what other bonuses to bioware give that would be a
problem? I"m just waking up so can't recall any offhand.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 28
From: Matthew Waddilove <matthew@*********.U-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:01:49 +0100
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>

>At 03:10 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> But for almost all adepts (who take drain only from attribute boost),
>>bioware would be no worse than for mundanes. It doesn't add any new
>>(relative) advantage adept vs samurai wise, but I think an adept with no
>>magic loss and a load of bioware is a bad thing.
>
>And therein lies the big problem that *I* have with my own proposal. I
>can't figure out how to include adepts into the theory, because otherwise
>it works.
>
>Suggestions?
>


How about :

A) Bioware costs Power Points(I think thats the one i.e. what adepts buy
their powers with)
problem = to much like the system we're replacing

B) Adepts have to take a damage resistance test of (Body Index * Power
Level) L STUN for each use.
problem = what about powers that are constantly activated.

C) When the bioware is installed the Adept has to take a damage resistance
test of (Body Index * Power Level) L STUN or suffer PERMANENT STUN i.e. a
box on the stun track is always filled.
problem = nasty 1 box = permanent +1 TN(I think I havn't got the BBB
infront of me.)

D) impose a +1 modifier for every point of body index to tests involving
either the power or the bioware.
problem can get V. nasty

just my 0.02 Thaum

-Matthew Waddilove
Message no. 29
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:43:49 +0000
> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:55:03 EDT
> From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
> Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3


> In a message dated 98-10-05 09:15:45 EDT, you write:
>
> << Let's see how close we can come on the list? I've noticed nearly
> no one on list has problems throwing their two cents in.. .]:-) >>
>
> <<Snipage>>
>
> I really dont like the mages getting zapped in their magic scores for using
> Bioware. The simple fact of the matter remains that Bioware doesnt cost
> essance for mundanes, so why should it cost for Mages?

Play Balance, pure and simple. Each of the major character types has some
strong points and some weak points. Permitting Mages to have Bio-ware with out
a penalty would scue the relitive character type balance that the game has.

>Bioware is pretty wiz,
> but I would see it as the only way for a mage to try and even the odds of his
> getting fragged when the drek finaly hits the fan, myself.

Mages already have some magical means to balance things out, if they
considered it important during character generation or whileadding new spells.
If they choose not to "buy" those spells, then that is just one of the trade
offs one makes when generating characters.

>However, let us
> not forget that that sort of major surgery CAN cause a redution in magic
> rating regardless of if bioware was being installed or not. Say Double the TN
> the charecter would have to roll to avoid Magic loss after surgury? This
> would pretty much balance that out since most Mages would think twice about
> the odds of loosing some of their Mojo. And, having re-read material at the
> start of Shadowteck, a Mage installing the 2 bi worth of bio should only loose
> 2 magic points.
>
[SNIP]


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin
Message no. 30
From: andrew <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:11:56 +0100
> > I really dont like the mages getting zapped in their magic scores for using
> > Bioware. The simple fact of the matter remains that Bioware doesnt cost
> > essance for mundanes, so why should it cost for Mages?

Heres a reason before modifying his body a mages physical body and astral aura are
in phase with each other. When you start adding cyberware and/or bioware you modify
the physical body but not the aura. Now when two forces are out of phase the total
force is less than when in phase, the same for a mage with his physical body and his
aura.


KO
Message no. 31
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:49:30 -0700
:> But for almost all adepts (who take drain only from attribute
boost),
:>bioware would be no worse than for mundanes. It doesn't add any new
:>(relative) advantage adept vs samurai wise, but I think an adept with no
:>magic loss and a load of bioware is a bad thing.
:
:And therein lies the big problem that *I* have with my own proposal. I
:can't figure out how to include adepts into the theory, because otherwise
:it works.
:
:Suggestions?
:
:Erik J.


Perhaps bioware could reduce an adepts magic rating, but NOT their
"Power Points". Thus, the max rating of any power would be lower, but
total powers (points) would not change. OTOH, since killing hands tops at
4 and reflexes at 3, very few adepts have (or need) rating 6 powers, so
that's a pretty weak penalty.
My personal recommendation to Mike involved keeping the old stuff
(except special mage effects) and adding a flaw for each point of BI. The
exact flaws are unimportant, but mages could get a special set of magic
related flaws, either instead of or in addition to the normal flaws. Many
of the ideas already raised here (poor healing, decreased life expectancy
/ overflow, social penalties, medical requirements) would fall under the
umbrella of flaws. It would be possible for two people with the same
stats and bioware to have different flaws- distribution would probably
best be random, although perhaps flaws could be altered by further medical
treatment (which is safe for mundanes, but risky for mages).

Mongoose
Message no. 32
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:57:11 -0400
At 01:49 PM 10-7-98 -0700, you wrote:
>
> Perhaps bioware could reduce an adepts magic rating, but NOT their
>"Power Points". Thus, the max rating of any power would be lower, but
>total powers (points) would not change. OTOH, since killing hands tops at
>4 and reflexes at 3, very few adepts have (or need) rating 6 powers, so
>that's a pretty weak penalty.

<snip>

>Mongoose

Ummm... If you reduce an adept's Magic rating, you *do* reduce their Power
Points. It says so in the book, SR3 p.168, under "Adept Powers," second
paragraph, first sentence: "An adept who loses Magic also loses a
corresponding amount of powers, so an adept who loses a Magic point must
also lose one point worth of powers."


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 33
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:17:09 -0700
:-> But for almost all adepts (who take drain only from attribute
boost),
:->bioware would be no worse than for mundanes. It doesn't add any new
:->(relative) advantage adept vs samurai wise, but I think an adept with
no
:->magic loss and a load of bioware is a bad thing.
:
: Is it any worse than a street samurai with a near-0 essence and a
:load of bioware? The reflex enhancements wouldn't be cumulative, bioware
:still wouldn't allow the adept to 'merge' with technology the way a
street
:samurai does, Hmmm... what other bonuses to bioware give that would be a
:problem? I"m just waking up so can't recall any offhand.
:
:

No, it would not be any worse (as I said, it doesn't affect relative
balance, it just seems wrong, somehow).
Its a bit worse, because adept powers are now about as good as cyber,
without costing essence (which primarily means adepts get better magic
healing but similar power). Adding bioware to that is, I think, more
imbalancing that adding it to somebody already whacked on cyber.
But, their should, I think, also be some unique problems to using lots
of cyber an bio (of whatever types)together- for one, I could see the
systems, if extensive, stressing each other and the body a lot, adding
medical maintenance, treatment, and health problems.

Mongoose
Message no. 34
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:07:17 EDT
In a message dated 10/7/1998 2:00:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>
> Ummm... If you reduce an adept's Magic rating, you *do* reduce their Power
> Points. It says so in the book, SR3 p.168, under "Adept Powers," second
> paragraph, first sentence: "An adept who loses Magic also loses a
> corresponding amount of powers, so an adept who loses a Magic point must
> also lose one point worth of powers."
>
Well duh, and if you look very closely at that statement, you will discover
that the Magic Point lost indicates what Power Point's abilities were lost as
well. The statement also indicates that very careful tracking of what
powers/abilities the Adept buys are bought with what. Magically oriented
Power Points, or Power Points purchased via Karma.

-K
Message no. 35
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:08:14 -0500
> But, their should, I think, also be some unique problems to using lots
>of cyber an bio (of whatever types)together- for one, I could see the
>systems, if extensive, stressing each other and the body a lot, adding
>medical maintenance, treatment, and health problems.
>
>

There are penalites for using cyber and bio. If anyone has
cybertechnology handy, I believe it says something about cybernetic
replacements and bioware and how they intermingle. For instance, if a
character had cyber arms, then there was a reduction on how effective
certain bioware was. So if you have a bioware that increases strength, it
would be less effective because up to 1/4th of the body was cybernetic (in
regards to the particular attribute effected, in this case strength).
Also, listed under the bioware descriptions, there were explicit rules
saying that this particular bio replacement did not work with cybernetics.
I can't find my cybertechnology book so could anyone can look at it and
clerify this?


Ron

#include disclamer.h
Message no. 36
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:24:02 -0400
At 01:49 PM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote:

> My personal recommendation to Mike involved keeping the old stuff
>(except special mage effects) and adding a flaw for each point of BI.

Biggest problem with this concept is that not everyone uses Edges&Flaws.

What could be done is that a GM could decide (as part of an optional rule,
to be found in SR3Companion or something) that every point, or every two
points of combined Essence Loss and Body Index would mandate a point of Flaws.

I've never thought that 0.01 Essence and maxed bioware street sams would be
very normal folks; I imagine them having all sorts of weird tics and such.
Perhaps not emotionless or outright insane like heavily cybered CP2020
characters, but *something.*

By mandating (as an optional rule) that X amount of cyber and bioware must
be accompanied by Y amount of Flaws, this sort of mirrors this. The once
slick stud is now, weighed down by chrome, "Uncouth" because he can't
relate to mere mundanes anymore. They now have a "Weak Immune System" from
all the immuno-suppressant designed to keep the body from rejecting his
cyber. And so on and so forth.

This sort of thing would obivously hit street sams more than most character
types (almost said character classes...), though riggers would also be
heavily affected too.

But this *could* be an *Optional* rule that would reduce the desire for
heavy chrome and could make life more interesting in the game.

Hey, it's another idea, to be used by you if it's appropriate for your game.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 37
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:45:24 -0700
:> But, their should, I think, also be some unique problems to using
lots
:>of cyber an bio (of whatever types)together- for one, I could see the
:>systems, if extensive, stressing each other and the body a lot, adding
:>medical maintenance, treatment, and health problems.
:>
:>
:
: There are penalites for using cyber and bio. If anyone has
:cybertechnology handy, I believe it says something about cybernetic
:replacements and bioware and how they intermingle. For instance, if a
:character had cyber arms, then there was a reduction on how effective
:certain bioware was. So if you have a bioware that increases strength,
it
:would be less effective because up to 1/4th of the body was cybernetic
(in
:regards to the particular attribute effected, in this case strength).
:Also, listed under the bioware descriptions, there were explicit rules
:saying that this particular bio replacement did not work with
cybernetics.
:I can't find my cybertechnology book so could anyone can look at it and
:clerify this?


Yeah, I've got all that Cybertechnology stuff. I was not refering to
the function of the boiware and cyberware as independant systems. That's
a compatablity problem.
I meant something along the lines of, if you have a .1 essence and 8
BI of bio, you are going to have some problems with normal health
functions. Things like decreased desease resistance, potential failure of
bio and cyber systems, poor healing, etc. These would be problems related
to radical alteration of metabolic and imunological profiles.
Those problems would independant of wether your cyberlimb was helped
by your muscle aug or not, which is also important, but more of an
engeneering than medical problem. Form the standpoint of game play, they
influence which implants you choose to get, not how hard they are to live
with.

Mongoose
Message no. 38
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 04:33:07 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-07 18:25:28 EDT, you write:

<< They now have a "Weak Immune System" from all the immuno-suppressant
designed to keep the body from rejecting his cyber. And so on and so forth.>>


I could see the Weak Immune system for bioware, but not for cyber. unless you
took the alergic flaw cyber is laid out in such a way as to be non rejecting.
Check out "Cybersystem Implementation" on Page 39 of Shadowtech. Its too long
to quote here.
Message no. 39
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 06:45:54 -0400
On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Mongoose wrote:

->:-> But for almost all adepts (who take drain only from attribute
->boost),
->:->bioware would be no worse than for mundanes. It doesn't add any new
->:->(relative) advantage adept vs samurai wise, but I think an adept with
->no
->:->magic loss and a load of bioware is a bad thing.
->:
->: Is it any worse than a street samurai with a near-0 essence and a
->:load of bioware? The reflex enhancements wouldn't be cumulative, bioware
->:still wouldn't allow the adept to 'merge' with technology the way a
->street
->:samurai does, Hmmm... what other bonuses to bioware give that would be a
->:problem? I"m just waking up so can't recall any offhand.
->:
->:
->
-> No, it would not be any worse (as I said, it doesn't affect relative
->balance, it just seems wrong, somehow).
-> Its a bit worse, because adept powers are now about as good as cyber,
->without costing essence (which primarily means adepts get better magic
->healing but similar power). Adding bioware to that is, I think, more
->imbalancing that adding it to somebody already whacked on cyber.
-> But, their should, I think, also be some unique problems to using lots
->of cyber an bio (of whatever types)together- for one, I could see the
->systems, if extensive, stressing each other and the body a lot, adding
->medical maintenance, treatment, and health problems.

Well, there aren't medical modifiers due to patient's essence,
Erik's proposed changes also make medical modifiers due to patient's Body
Index. Physads (unlike samurai) are probably going to lose 1 Power Point
per point of Body Index (they will in my campaign, anyway), so, unlike the
Samurai, Bioware at Chargen will really limit the Physad, and getting it
later may cost them a magic point due to a surgery botch, not just a Power
Point.
Bioware is supposed to be very similar to body functions, the bio
that does have severe effects on the body already had such detailed in
it's description (symbiotes, suprathyroid gland, enhanced articulation,
adrenal pump, platelet factory and pain editor off the top of my head).
Other bio (muscle augmentation, trauma damper, mnemonic enhancer, etc.)
either doesn't have these side effects or they take a longer time to
manifest (hence them not being in the Shadowtech book). When I catch a
player 'abusing' the rules, I throw in twists like this to keep them back
in line.
Player: "It doesn't say that in the rules."
GM: "I suppose they didn't run tests with people with your amount
of biostress. They didn't think it would be important to find out how
putting all the Bioware they have into a troll would affect the troll. If
you'd like you could call them to complain about your condition. I would
expect their number to be in the phone book, is your character going to
call?"
Player: <Angry stare>

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 40
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:25:49 -0400
At 04:33 AM 10/8/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-10-07 18:25:28 EDT, you write:
>
><< They now have a "Weak Immune System" from all the
immuno-suppressant
>designed to keep the body from rejecting his cyber. And so on and so
forth.>>
>
>I could see the Weak Immune system for bioware, but not for cyber. unless
you
>took the alergic flaw cyber is laid out in such a way as to be non rejecting.
>Check out "Cybersystem Implementation" on Page 39 of Shadowtech. Its too
long
>to quote here.

A more current reference would be the SRCompanion's description of the Weak
Immune System Flaw. It specifically states that is is common amongst
street samurai and the like who have to take/have taken various
immuno-suppressant because of cyberware and bioware implantation.

I find it highly unlikely that the cyberware itself has become so perfect
it cannot be rejected. Far more likely that the cocktail of drugs used to
prevent rejection (which admittedly is probably less common) has been
dramatically improved. But it won't work perfectly for everyone...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 41
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:47:21 -0400
On 8 Oct 98, at 12:25, Erik Jameson wrote:

> I find it highly unlikely that the cyberware itself has become so perfect
> it cannot be rejected. Far more likely that the cocktail of drugs used to
> prevent rejection (which admittedly is probably less common) has been
> dramatically improved. But it won't work perfectly for everyone...

It is possible that cyberware is not rejected. A lot of things used
today are not rejected, i.e. hip joints, bone pins, etc.

Rejection occurs because your immune system doesn't recognize the new
organ as being "self" and considers it foreign. The immune system
then attacks the "foreign" thing, and tries to destroy it -- hence
rejection.
This partially happens at the genetic level. The way that the immune
system recognizes things as "self" is through certain markers, called
histocompatility locus antigens (HLA). The name is long and awkward,
but basically these markers act as nametags for every cell in the
body saying "We belong here." Anything without that nametag is
foreign, and targeted for attack.

There are a wide variety of HLAs possible -- people who are
more closely related are more likely to have similar ones. This is
why organ transplants work best from relatives, and why organ
recipients have to be matched to the donors -- otherwise rejection is
extremely rapid.

Because no one is identical at every HLA (except for identical
twins), in all cases of organ donation the recipient will eventually
start to reject the donated tissue unless immunosuppressive drugs are
given.

Now the interesting thing is that if someone has a bone marrow
transplant, because bone marrow is where some of the cells that
identify self from foreign reside, that person's new bone marrow
sometimes recognizes the recipient as foreign, and attacks it
somewhat. (This happens because in a bone marrow transplant the
recipient has his or her bone marrrow knocked out by irradiation
first, and the donated bone marrow is all that is there.)

Note that this is in regard to tissue implants. "Material" implants
seldom cause rejection. Tissue rejection is more common, mainly
because with a material implant, the components used aren't very
antigenic (likely to produce an immune response). Although when
people get artificial heart values they might be put on
immunosuppressive therapy -- I can't remember for that case -- but
for hip replacements, etc., there's usually no need for it.

Actually, after looking at rejection, I realize that bioware would be
much more likely to be rejected than cyberware. The use of immuno-
suppressant drugs could explain some of the effects Erik proposed,
such as lower life span.

Rejection would probably not be an issue with cultured bioware,
however, as that bioware would have the identical HLA pattern of the
user. In fact, it could be possible to make a transgenic donor (human
or otherwise), and if the HLA pattern matched, no rejection.
Certainly should be possible with the genetech available in the SR
universe.

There's a good idea for a run; hit a clone farm that is used to
harvest bioware implants.

--



=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 42
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:58:56 -0700
:<< They now have a "Weak Immune System" from all the immuno-suppressant
:designed to keep the body from rejecting his cyber. And so on and so
forth.>>
:
:
:I could see the Weak Immune system for bioware, but not for cyber.
unless you
:took the alergic flaw cyber is laid out in such a way as to be non
rejecting.
:Check out "Cybersystem Implementation" on Page 39 of Shadowtech. Its too
long
:to quote here.


Opinions on the effect of "imunno neutral" materials in the body are
still divided. Also, in many cases, such a qualification is only in
degree of effect- if there is very little effect, it is considered safe.
There is some evidence that just the presence of large quantities of
anything not recognizable as part of the body can "confuse" and eventually
weaken the body. In any case, RL implantation often provides a easy entry
path and area of weakened defense for decease to enter and linger.

Mongoose
Message no. 43
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Bioware under SR3
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:16:39 +0000
I've been reading about 50% of the messages in this thread so far, so
forgive me if this was already brought up, there's simply too much
mail to read for me.

My ideas for how to use bioware in SR3:

Keep the body index but don't make it simply body = index. I always
felt that trolls cramming themselves completely full with bio was a
bit over the top (their bioware has to be proportionally bigger too).

So maybe:
for body <=6 body = index
over that every two points add one to the index.

Now norms can just use that index to stuff themselves with bioware.
Mages and adepts use the following procedure:

make body test against 4 for remaining body index after implanting
the new bioware piece <= 25% of total index;
5 for up to 50%;
6 for 75%;
8 for up to 100%
Round fractions down.

then you can follow either way:

1 success means no essence loss and no successes mean lose magic
according to old rules.

or 1 success means lose half the cost of the bioware piece in magic;
two successes is no loss; failure lose full cost.

So far I always allowed mages to implant bioware up to 25% of their
body value for free, but this could be an alternative way.

All from the point of an armchair SR player right now of course :).


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

Further Reading

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