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From:	Greet's <KSREC@******>
Subject:	Books...
Date:	Thu, 30 Jul 92 00:11:47 -0900

Message no. 1 Greet's Chummers...

As a WageSlave of Waldo's I can give you all the info for
"Never Trust An Elf" ShadowRun #6...ISBN 0-451-45178-3..Price $4.50
Book #7 should be out in a couple of months..It will be a Reprint of the
very First book ( I think) "Into The Shadows", which is a colection
of some of the Greatest Storys ever told...Like WhiteChaple Rose by
Lorelei Shannon...I don't have ISBN for this book, but just ask for
ShadowRun #7: Into The Shadows....O well that's my two cents...

-Ronald Cannon Decker/Mage

From:	"Elves are better at night 8)" <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Subject:	Books
Date:	Wed, 3 Nov 1993 18:20:28 -0500

Message no. 2 Ah, but is the Into The Shadows you own the first
or second printing. The first one came out maybe
6 months after the hardcover rule book. Its first
story was actually three chapters of Never Deal with
a Dragon. And it cost $9 (I HATE when it gets expensive).
The second printing costs $4 and starts with a story
about mantis spirits. Judging from my copies (I got
both when I saw there was a story change) I think that
Haeselich is still kicking. He was alive at the end of
Into the Shadows.
Harlequin
And remember folks, Its all done with mirrors.
Would it help to say I'm sorry?
*grin*

From:	"J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	books
Date:	Wed, 11 May 1994 15:18:30 +0100

Message no. 3 Anyone out there ever read

'Waldo' and'Magic Inc.' by Robert Heinlein (i think)

'Good Omens' by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman

fun SR background potential?

CHOPPER
This is a test
This is only a test
If this had been a real emergency,
you would all be dead by now...

From:	Ryan Kinney <rmkinney@***.NCSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: books
Date:	Fri, 13 May 1994 18:26:24 -0400

Message no. 4 > Anyone out there ever read
>
> 'Waldo' and'Magic Inc.' by Robert Heinlein (i think)

No, but I have read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by the same guy.
The main character has a cyberarm which he can remove and use other
atachments on. For example one arm looks like a real arm, one is good
for bashing heads, and he uses another for working on micro-electronics.
Pretty good idea for a shadowrunner. He could have one with a cybergun,
and another that is good for electronics which might give him an extra
point to his skill. You get the idea.

Ryan Kinney (rmkinney@***.ncsu.edu)

From:	Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: books
Date:	Fri, 13 May 1994 17:53:05 -0700

Message no. 5 On Fri, 13 May 1994, Ryan Kinney wrote:

> > Anyone out there ever read
> >
> > 'Waldo' and'Magic Inc.' by Robert Heinlein (i think)
>
> No, but I have read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by the same guy.
> The main character has a cyberarm which he can remove and use other
> atachments on. For example one arm looks like a real arm, one is good
> for bashing heads, and he uses another for working on micro-electronics.
> Pretty good idea for a shadowrunner. He could have one with a cybergun,
> and another that is good for electronics which might give him an extra
> point to his skill. You get the idea.
>
> Ryan Kinney (rmkinney@***.ncsu.edu)
>
This idea is available in Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. We translated it
over from there as a no-Essence-cost option that anyone could buy for
their cyberarm. Quick Dis-connect, +25,000 nuYen. It, obviously, has
to be bought for each arm the character owns.

Yes, I have read Waldo. Neat story, and the things do work too.
The inventer of the "waldo remote manipulator" named them after the
story, and gave one of the first working versions to R.A.Heinlein as a
gift.
Another book I would reccommend, by Heinlein, is Friday. But,
then again, every book by Heinlein was worth reading. For the Attitude
if nothing else. A short story, available in the collection "The Past
Through Tomorrow", called "Coventry" is especially rewarding.
Then again, the whole 'Cyberpunk" movement is descended from a
bunch of books written by Heinlein, and others back in the 50s. I just
can't remember the names of them. I'll try to think them back up and
post them.
Ivy K

From:	Marek Telgarsky <mtelgars@**.NMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Books
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 1995 16:17:49 -0600

Message no. 6 Thanks for the replies on the vehicle mods.
Im getting the following books... and I am wondering whether they are
second ed books, first ed, or what.
_ShadowTech_
_Street_Sam_Catalog_
_Neo_Anarchists_Guide_to_Real_Life_

Am I making a mistake here? I know I need a Grimoire also, and maybe
that new Virtual Realities..as well as the Rigger Black Book. Any
other suggestions?

mucho thankso..
Marek

-- Alazar@#linux.linuxnet.IRC #include <std_disclaimer.h>
-- SCF Admin marek@***.nmsu.edu
-- CS Computer Operations Group mtelgars@**.nmsu.edu

From:	Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject:	Books
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 1995 16:51:37 -0700

Message no. 7 >
>Marek wrote:
>Thanks for the replies on the vehicle mods.
>Im getting the following books... and I am wondering whether they are
>second ed books, first ed, or what.
>_ShadowTech_
>_Street_Sam_Catalog_
>_Neo_Anarchists_Guide_to_Real_Life_
>
>Am I making a mistake here? I know I need a Grimoire also, and maybe
>that new Virtual Realities..as well as the Rigger Black Book. Any
>other suggestions?
>
>mucho thankso..

Street_Sam_Catalog is first Edition - personally I don't think it's
worth the money... But if you need desc. (because your the GM) it
comes in handy.
ShadowTech - (not sure) but there really isn't enough that has
changed from this book to make a difference. This is a very
important book for Samurai's
Neo_Anarchists - (not sure) again the weapons in here are all new
or at staging 2 (I think) still a very resourceful book.

One of the newer books: Fields of Fire should be in you top 5.
And I personally like Sprawl Sites.

as for the other books...

From:	Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 1995 23:13:18 -0500

Message no. 8 >Am I making a mistake here? I know I need a Grimoire also, and maybe
>that new Virtual Realities..as well as the Rigger Black Book. Any
>other suggestions?

Paranormal Animals of Europe
Lone Star
Fields of Fire (must have)
Seattle Sourcebook
Denver box set
Bug City
Sprawl Sites
Corporate Security
Corporate Shadowfiles

Just some suggestions... the more the merrier, say I.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>

From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 1995 18:47:33 +1000

Message no. 9 Marek Telgarsky writes:

> _ShadowTech_

This is a 1st edition book, but there are only very few codes and stats
which would need changing. Most of them have a staging of 2 anyhow, so you
can pretty much drop the staging numeral (the last number on a damage code),
and use what's left in 2nd edition. The book itself is pretty good, with
lots of new toys for cyber freaks. Some GMs find it unbalancing (but I think
they just have a karma/nuyen imbalance in their games), as the equipment
from it actually allows samurais some kind of advancement other than stats
and skills. If you have a bunch of powergamers or munchkins in your group
however, it can be fairly useful for their schemes. Reccomended
none-the-less.

> _Street_Sam_Catalog_

One of the earlists toy suppliments. It is 1st edition, but there has been a
second edition reprint. The stats for all the gear in it appear in an
appendix in SRII for those who had the book from their SRI days and did not
wish to purchase the new version. Note that the stats are not enough to play
with (they miss much of the attachments, notes, special rules etc) as they
only gives the SRII damage conversions etc for the weapons. In its day it
was a much needed sourcebook (as FASA has very few weapons and pieces of
cyberware in their main rule book). It has been somewhat eclipsed by S-Tech
though. However, many of the pieces of equipment in it are useful, and the
book itself is a SR classic.

> _Neo_Anarchists_Guide_to_Real_Life_

This is both 1st and second edition. It gives a fair overview of life in the
SR universe, but I wouldn't think this entirely neccessary. It contains a few
rules enhancements, and a few articles of equipment as well. The best part
by far is the section on security, which is very useful for the GM to devise
security for corp compounds and the like. Reccommended mainly due to the
security section.

> Am I making a mistake here? I know I need a Grimoire also, and maybe
> that new Virtual Realities..as well as the Rigger Black Book. Any
> other suggestions?

The Grimything would be the first sourcebook I'd purchase. It expands magic
so much, and contains lots of new spells, abilities, rules, and other fun
stuff like insect shamens and toxic shamens. It can be considered, in some
ways, as the magical companion to S-Tech, and must be used carefully. Note
that there are both 1st and second eitions floating around (my lcal games
store still has a copy of Grimything 1 on its shelves), so make sure you get
the 2nd edition.

VR is next to useless unless you plan on doing an inordinate amount of
decking. Though the story is cool :-). I'd probably wait until the 2nd
edition one comes out to by it.

The RBB is a 1st edition book, and is viewed as pretty much trash by many
people (quite a few on here think it is by far the worst FASA product they
have seen). It's useful because it has lots of new vehicles and such, but
any GM with a bit of imagination and a few hours could do just as good. The
vehicle modifiaction rules are pretty poor, although they do give you many
good suggestions on what kind of things can be done to a vehcile. The rules
section has been superceded by SRII. The weapon section only contains
vehicle weapons, which are not usually common in SR games as a general rule
anyhow. I'd only buy it if one of your players was going to be playing a
rigger.

Actually, a better idea is if you can con your players into buying the
sourcebook appropriate to their character - get the magician to buy the
Grimything, the decker VR, sammies SSC & S-Tech, riggers RBB and so on.

As for other useful books, I recommend you purchase Harlequin (the module),
but don't run it straight away. It is a legendary SR adventure.

FoF, the new toys book, is pretty good. Especially if you have a merc who
wants to be a _merc_, not "a sammie with an LMG". The gear in it is a bit
more powerful than other equpment in the main book and sourcebooks though in
my view, particularily the armour (munchkinous is about the right
description), but the rules section in the back is quite good.

I personally am planning on buying Bug City soon myself (but only because I
have plans to do with my players and bugs), so I can't say how good that is.
Likewise the Corporate Security Sourcebook (or whatever it's called).

Most of the location sourcebooks (London, Germany, Tir etc) are pretty
useless unless you want to take your players there for some reason or
another.

The two beasties books (Paranormal Animals of North America and Europe) are
interesting, but not all that handy unless you plan on having lost of
critters as guard creatures. Though PNAE his good clarifications and
explanations of the awakened powers and abilites, and a few cool creatures
which can be used for good plot devices.

Corporate Shadowfiles is not all that useful, except that it gives a good
overview of corportae intrigue, which can be handy for designing adventure.

DMZ is crap.

Shadowbeat is quite interesting, but not neccessary to have.

I'd recommend Divided Assets (the module) because of the matrix rules in the
back. If you plan on running a decker, then this is probably more useful
than VR. The module itself is pretty poor in my view (the designers just
assumed too much/too little).

There, that covers most of it I think. A word on the adventures, they all
follow a predicatble plotline: * Runners offered simple sounding job
* Job either turns out to be more than
expected, or
* Job leads onto much bigger things
One could almost bet on it. Although a couple of them are quite alright in
my view, you have to watch overusing them. I'd reccomend Mercurial and
Universal Brotherhood as two pretty OK ones (the adventure in UB isn't all
that crash hot, but the UB bit that comes with it is cool). If your players
are converting over from $$&$, then DNA/DOA is a good intermediate adventure
to get them into the feel of SR while not throwing them off too much. It is
also quite likely that you'll have to tailor the stats of the NPCs in the
adventures to suit your own team, as the power levels of the modules vary
fairly widely.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:12:46 +0200

Message no. 10 >_ShadowTech_

First edition, though there seem to be two printings, with minor modifications.

>_Street_Sam_Catalog_

First and second edition. 2nd Ed is only useful if you want pictures of the
weapons, and want to know the accessories they come with as standard.
Otherwise, use the stats from the Sourcebook Updates in the SR2 book.

>_Neo_Anarchists_Guide_to_Real_Life_

1st and 2nd in one book. It gives stats for both systems.

>Am I making a mistake here? I know I need a Grimoire also, and maybe
>that new Virtual Realities..as well as the Rigger Black Book. Any
>other suggestions?

Fields of Fire if you want weapons, some location sourcebooks if you want to
flesh out your campaign world, maybe Shadowbeat if you have people wanting
to play rockers or journalists. Also try getting all net.publications you
can find as they're cheap (or free, depending on what you pay for you net
access) and many contain useful material.

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is contagious
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 1995 18:38:47 +0200

Message no. 11 On Tue, 25 Apr 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> I personally am planning on buying Bug City soon myself (but only because I
> have plans to do with my players and bugs), so I can't say how good that is.
> Likewise the Corporate Security Sourcebook (or whatever it's called).
>
> Most of the location sourcebooks (London, Germany, Tir etc) are pretty
> useless unless you want to take your players there for some reason or
> another.

Just some words about these books:

BUG CITY is cool, but perhaps not for the faint at heart. The
postapocalyptic feel is perfect, and the angst index is way up. Of course
it's not in the way of adventures, but there are a few nice hooks, that
can be the foundation of a *different* campaign. Also, you can run the
How Things Came To Pass like an adventure - just where were your runners
when the Cermak blast went off? As I said, it's quite major, and can be
either EPIC with flaming letters, or down-in-the-mud-gaming. But with the
Insect Spirits, something like this had to happen sooner or later.

LONDON SOURCEBOOK is also good, if erratic. The tone in this is
Big Brother Sees You - the government is still very powerful, and the
Lord Protector rules with an iron fist. However, the quality of the
material is not constant, and it contains wide holes. But it's very good
for a gothic-horror campaign, which is how I use it right now. It has a
good mixture of corporate intrigues, druidic mysticism, elven hidden
motives, welsh dragons and government strictness. And London is still a
dark town.

TIR TAIRNGIRE is probably one of the better books FASA have
released, but only for connaissures that want to know everything about
this "elven immortals"-crap. It is virtually impossible to play an
ongoing campaign here, unless all PCs are elven and *very* experienced.
Otherwise pretty good.

TIR na nOG is like the other Tir but more subtle, at least on the
surface. However, it has big holes in it, that make the country hard to
get a grip on, without the adventure CELTIC DOUBLE-CROSS that contains
some additional (and essential) material. The thing on Path Magic is cool
(though too powerful), and the faerie aura of the land makes for lots of
mysticism in the adventures.

GERMANY SOURCEBOOK is more down to earth. However, most areas
described are pretty dull. Who would ever want to run the shadows of the
Rhein-Ruhr complex? The Free City of Berlin is way cool, though, and
Hamburg sounds inviting although it isn't described. Adventuring here
would probably focus on corporational interests, though pagans, pollution
and the Troll Kingdom of Schwarzwald can make for pleasant distractions
from the asphalted wastelands.

> Corporate Shadowfiles is not all that useful, except that it gives a good
> overview of corportae intrigue, which can be handy for designing adventure.

Even though you're right, I've gotta say this (as both warning
and advertising): the long discourse on stocks, shares and the financial
market was brilliant! And the colour plates at the end, buzzing on the
Big 8, was also worth my while. The rules on Corporations aren't that
good, though.

-Jonas Gabrielson

From:	GR DIRK KENNETH W <DIRKKENN@***.ISU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 1995 11:26:49 MST

Message no. 12 Gurth writes:
>Also try getting all net.publications you can find as theyl're
>cheap.

Yeah great idea! Might try getting the first five volumes of
NAGEE (Neo Anarchists Guide to Everything Else). I think you
can find it at ftp:yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/pub/frp/shadowrun/NAGEE

Hope this helped

-DrugDoc
(aka Ken Dirk)
(E-mail: dirkkenn@****.isu.edu)
"Better living through chemestry"

From:	John Bennett <GRBENNET@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU>
Subject:	Books
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 1995 11:06:55 EDT

Message no. 13 >>
>>Marek wrote:
>>Thanks for the replies on the vehicle mods.
>>Im getting the following books... and I am wondering whether they are
>>second ed books, first ed, or what.
>>_ShadowTech_
>>_Street_Sam_Catalog_
>>_Neo_Anarchists_Guide_to_Real_Life_
>>
>>Am I making a mistake here? I know I need a Grimoire also, and maybe
>>that new Virtual Realities..as well as the Rigger Black Book. Any
>>other suggestions?
>>
>>mucho thankso..
>

gary wrote:
>Street_Sam_Catalog is first Edition - personally I don't think it's
>worth the money... But if you need desc. (because your the GM) it
>comes in handy.

Actually, they came out with a SRII edition and AFAIK, it's the only one
you can get now.

>ShadowTech - (not sure) but there really isn't enough that has
>changed from this book to make a difference. This is a very
>important book for Samurai's
>Neo_Anarchists - (not sure) again the weapons in here are all new
>or at staging 2 (I think) still a very resourceful book.
>
>One of the newer books: Fields of Fire should be in you top 5.
>And I personally like Sprawl Sites.
>
>as for the other books...

"I MAY BE SANE BUT I'M CRAZIER THAN YOU"

GeekCodev2.1
GM/ED d--(++) H+ s+: g+ p? au+ a26 w+ v-(*) c+ u- P? !L !3 E? !N k- w+
m V+ -po+ Y+ t+ 5- j R+ G' tv+ b++ D+ B c+++(*) u+(**) h f+ r !n y+

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 1995 19:53:51 GMT

Message no. 14 > LONDON SOURCEBOOK is also good, if erratic. The tone in this is
> Big Brother Sees You - the government is still very powerful, and the
> Lord Protector rules with an iron fist. However, the quality of the
> material is not constant, and it contains wide holes. But it's very good
> for a gothic-horror campaign, which is how I use it right now. It has a
> good mixture of corporate intrigues, druidic mysticism, elven hidden
> motives, welsh dragons and government strictness. And London is still a
> dark town.

The London Sourcebook unfortunately might be useful to an outsider, but its
infuriation factor to British players is enormous... Unfortunately FASA
didn't do as well as usual in their vision of Britain. The notion that the
East End is the "hot spot", for instance, doesn't jibe at all with current
events let alone future trends.

As for the description of Soho... It's listed as "the heart of the West
End". It's actually the heart of the rag trade, and the sex trade (with
accompanying muscular men with short hair and bad tempers). Covent Garden
is completely ignored - it's a superb place to meet people, for a
firefight, for many things..

Geography is way out - Corfg Castle isn't in Portsmouth, their spelling
(esp. the Welsh) is awful, and for a druidic theme it would help to put
Stonehenge in the right place. The Army uses Salisbury Plain enough that I
know where Stonehenge is...

The politics is also very, very suspect. Most of the stuff about the Lord
Chancellor, for instance, simply wouldn't wash. The Conservative Party
"establishes local parliaments?" Shyeah, right, and Newt Gingritch votes
for the "Cash Handouts for Drug Addicts and Single Mothers" Bill. A little
research into the last few hundred years of British politics would have
helped.

"The Euro-Wars begin: the UK does not participate". Every major European
war of the last century has had us on one (sometimes both) sides.

"Systematic, institutional racism is more the British style". Where? We
never set up internment camps for British citizens of Japanese descent in
1941. We have race problems, but nowhere near the scale of America's...

"British policlubs are generally Green-orientated but a typically British
eccentric fringe also exists". Right: the British National Party (depart
all non-whites) and Combat 18 (kill all non-whites) are either eco-freaks
or lovable eccentrics. The Green Party died at the polls five years ago...

As for trideo... "...if satellite and cable channels are included...only a
few of these attract more than a tiny minority of British viewers". We've
got cable: most of my colleagues have either cable or satellite: where do
FASA get their data?

I could go on, but I won't. Just don't expect the Britain in that
sourcebook to have any relation to the real one. My wife kicked me, so I
will point out that far from "gleaning a living from the land" Wales has
been one of Britain's industrial heartlands for centuries. We seem to have
lost about six million people's worth of cities in Wales...

Never mind: the USA Sourcebook is en route. The residents all wear baseball
caps, listen to "rap" music, are legally required to shoot each other with
bazookas at least twice a day, and live either in the East Coast industrial
zones of New Jersey and Los Angeles, or are rural farmers in the Southern
states of Texas, Montana and Alaska. Their politics consists of ritual
exchanges of insults on television, the voters electing leaders who can
deliver the most vicious personal attack, and the only national industry is
liability legislation.

Sorry - we love most of FASA's stuff, but the London Sourcebook was just
*horrible*. Anyone want to buy ours? :-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 1995 18:27:22 +0200

Message no. 15 On Tue, 25 Apr 1995, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> The London Sourcebook unfortunately might be useful to an outsider, but its
> infuriation factor to British players is enormous... Unfortunately FASA
> didn't do as well as usual in their vision of Britain.
>
> [Lots of complaining about how things really shold be]

Ok, ok. I get the picture, and yes, I was aware of these problems,
myself (I did say it had holes it it as wide as the Atlantic). But what I
wanted to get across to the unsuspecting buyer is the fact that it really
has a good 'running envirunment and a unique flavour to it. You have to
get over that the stupid yankees are belittling the "Heart of the
Empire", and remind yourself that this is fiction, and not an evaluation
of current trends. In 60 years, a lot will have happened, and you just
have to look at the History section to remind yourself of this. If Sweden
would have the same ecological problems as mentioned there, I would
fragging well vote for the Greens, too, never mind that they had low
credibility in the '90s!

Ok, so it wasn't the most probable depiction of UK in 2050, but
it was the tone I wanted, and tone I got.

> Never mind: the USA Sourcebook is en route. The residents all wear baseball
> caps, listen to "rap" music, are legally required to shoot each other with
> bazookas at least twice a day, and live either in the East Coast industrial
> zones of New Jersey and Los Angeles, or are rural farmers in the Southern
> states of Texas, Montana and Alaska. Their politics consists of ritual
> exchanges of insults on television, the voters electing leaders who can
> deliver the most vicious personal attack, and the only national industry is
> liability legislation.

Yeah! I'll buy it the second it comes out! Thank you, Lord!

-Jonas

From:	Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:21:13 -0500

Message no. 16 I find the Street Sam's Catalogue to be important for the descriptions
of the new 'ware and for figuring out what guns come with laser sights,
gas-vent, etc. The revised version just has the new damage codes which
are already in the main book (and Fields of Fire) so I'd say that you
should go to a used books store and get a 1st ed. one on the cheap!

(It's what I did)
Tim Serpas, BS Physics
wretch@**.com
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 1995 10:50:20 +0200

Message no. 17 >I find the Street Sam's Catalogue to be important for the descriptions
>of the new 'ware and for figuring out what guns come with laser sights,
>gas-vent, etc. The revised version just has the new damage codes which
>are already in the main book (and Fields of Fire) so I'd say that you
>should go to a used books store and get a 1st ed. one on the cheap!

Plus you get some gear they dropped from 2nd ed. that, with a little
tinkering, can still fit into the game.

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tijd voor een andere tekst...
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From:	P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 1995 21:55:14 BST

Message no. 18 Jonas Wrote :-
> BUG CITY is cool, but perhaps not for the faint at heart. The
> postapocalyptic feel is perfect, and the angst index is way up. Of course
> it's not in the way of adventures, but there are a few nice hooks, that
> can be the foundation of a *different* campaign. Also, you can run the
> How Things Came To Pass like an adventure - just where were your runners
> when the Cermak blast went off? As I said, it's quite major, and can be
> either EPIC with flaming letters, or down-in-the-mud-gaming. But with the
> Insect Spirits, something like this had to happen sooner or later.

Man, the angst index went off the top of the scale when I read my characters
the how-it-came-to-pass bit at the front, where the deckers are discussing
the wiered things happening all round the city.

The players were scared by the end of it :-)

Their characters started Bug City in bed in a clinic recovering from their
last run when the bugs borke free from the main nest. I left them there
as a cliff-hanger to get all the other runners they have either dead or
in position. :-).

As to the corp shadowfiles; like that bit at the front of the NEo-A's
guide to real life (or was it north america) on Economics, I could have
read that and probably had a good shot at passing A-Level economics,
a very sound discussion. OTOH, not really all that necessary.
I never bothered with the corp rules, who cares, the runners are the focus,
and nothing they can do (by themeselves will ever bring down a member of
the big eight. However they are fairly useful for juding corp resources.

Phil (Renegade

From:	P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 1995 10:21:56 BST

Message no. 19 > Plus you get some gear they dropped from 2nd ed. that, with a little
> tinkering, can still fit into the game.

Which bits did they completely strip out?

IPE came back later, APDS has been modified? what else went?

Phil (Renegade)

From:	Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.TDB.UU.SE>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 1995 16:37:45 +0200

Message no. 20 On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, P Ward wrote:

> IPE came back later, APDS has been modified? what else went?

Did IPE really come back? As I read it (and I guess you mean that
it appeared in the FoF equipment list) they just forgot to edit the
things out from the old file. Anyone clear on this?

-Jonas

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 1995 22:07:21 GMT

Message no. 21 > What would the stats of the magnum .44 revolver be, the kind of gun
> dirtry harry calahan uses in films like the dead pool
>
> Would they be about the same as the ruger super warhawk

I made the Smith and Wesson Model 29 (Clint's sidearm) a 10M damage,
six-shot cylinder-loaded. SA not SS: I have seen with my own eyes shooters
(no wires or nothing! :-) ) fire six hot .44 Magnums in four seconds during
a skittle shoot... about as fast as I can fire my .45 automatic and still
hope to hit anyone (sorry, anything ;-) ). As for what the professionals
can do with .357 Magnum...

Revolvers originally had "single action" triggers: cock the hammer (which
automatically indexed the cylinder), then pull the trigger to fire. Thumb
back the hammer again, fire. In the mid-1850s, Charles Adams (no relation)
patented "double action" revolvers where pulling the trigger accomplished
all the necessary actions, at the price of a longer and heavier pull. Today
almost all revolvers can be fired in either way.

This is why - apart from the Warhawk, which I see as a traditional
single-action revolver anyway (Ruger make some excellent ones) revolvers in
my game are "semi-autos" (yuck) and can fire twice per action. It just
means you empty the gun twice as fast :-)

> With single shot weapons, like revolvers, what happens to the other
> simple action when you fire them. The black book says that you can fine
> a single shot weapon in a simple action but only once a combat phase so
> does this mean you can use the other simple action to do other things,
> such as aim, or is this simple action spent bringing the gun back in
>line after recoil.

For a single action revolver, yes, you could aim for the first Simple
action and fire on the second. For a double-action you could fire on both.

> I`m not much of a guns expert, do revolvers like the .36 etc recock >
automatical after being fired?

Another can of worms and a lengthy explanation. Revolvers don't recock,
period. But most of them don't need to be cocked before firing. In fact the
.38 Specials used by the New York police *can't* be cocked in case the
lighter, easier trigger pull causes accidents.

For automatic pistols, traditionally they were similar except they recocked
on every shot. A Colt M1911A1, for instance, you load by inserting a full
magazine, then rack the slide: the weapon now has a round in the chamber
and the hammer is back. Four to eight pounds pull on the trigger and it'll
fire.
You can just put the safety on (Condition One carry) and have it instantly
ready. Of course if the safety slips off and you snag the trigger...
You can lower the hammer. (Condition Two). Now before you can fire you have
to thumb the hammer back. Slower but safer.
Or you can carry it with the chamber empty and hammer down, so you draw and
work the slide before firing (Condition Three). Slowest but safest.

To a police department, say, none of these are entirely satisfactory.
That's one reason cops stayed with revolvers for so long. Walther, for the
PP (Polizei Pistolen - sorry about misspelling) came up with a "double
action" trigger for an automatic. Load, work the slide, and put the safety
on, and the hammer is dropped automatically. Now you can draw it and
release the safety, and it fires with the "safe" long double-action pull
for the first shot. The second and thereafter are all single-action for
accuracy.

This system or a version thereof is almost universal on newer (post-WW2)
pistols such as the Beretta 92, Smith and Wessons, et cetera (many driven
by police markets). Variations include:

Decocker DA - SIG-Sauer pistols. No safety per se, but a lever to drop the
safety catch. The stiff DA trigger is meant to be "idiot proof" enough to
obviate a safety. Now seen on many other pistols, and most DA autos (like
my first gun, a S&W 4506) can be decocked and left with the safety
off/hammer down.

DA Only - Driven mostly by the US police market, especially New York :-),
these have the SA trigger disabled: every shot is on the stiff DA pull, so
no attorney can claim it was an "accidental discharge".

Trigger/Other-Cocking - includes my Glock, where the action is only partly
cocked and pulling the trigger completes the cycle then fires. A variant is
the Heckler and Koch P7, where the weapon is cocked by squeezing the
frontstrap.

Since all of the above fall into the church of "Semi Automatic", I think a
DA revolver can sneak in at the back :-)

I thought about rules to differentiate, but in Shadowrun-type firefights
the difference - although noticeable, as someone who's used most of the
above - is not enough to be worth extra bookkeeping. Besides, the runners
never have firearms accidents. Honestly. ;-)

> One other thing. If some one has mounted two LMGs on the front of his
> car when he fires them would he make one roll for both at the same time
> or two seperate roles.

I'd say a single roll - if they're firing on the same target. Use standard
autofire rules - so if both fire six-round bursts and both hit, the
target's just eaten twelve rounds... In SR this is more likely to be useful
for suppressive fire (lead on landscape) but that can still be handy.

> Can you modify the smart goggle system so you can smart link a gun and
> progect the crosshairs on a Head up desplay or on the windscreen.

Sure, but why would you really want to? Wear the goggles in the car :-) But
there's no reason you couldn't have a reflector gunsight-type affair for,
say, twice the cost of standard goggles (less worry about bulk, after all).
He'd be wise to get a full smartgun link, though.

> When cars go aquatic can they fire guns mounted, what sort of modifiers
> and armour ratings would water give if you were
> A> firing > through it or B> firing
> at someone underwater

Water does horrible things to bullets and trajectories. And a lot of
weapons (such as some early M-16s) tend to blow up with water in the
barrel: the pressure in the barrel rises too high. At the least you tend to
blow out primers, which has a very negative effect on feeding the next
round: caseless weapons would be even more vulnerable, since the pressure
goes right into the breech mechanism. If they want to fire underwater, they
had better modify their weapons pretty extensively.

And the ranges and accuracy will be ludicrously low: bullets corkscrew and
yaw horribly in water. They're *designed* to - their usual target is
seventy per cent H20! I'd say every metre of water you have to fire through
adds +2 to your target number and a Barrier Rating of 4, and that may be
generous.

If your targets want to hide in the water, I'd suggest concussion grenades
for some explosive fishing... The hydrostatic shock is quite horribly
lethal, since it's transmitted to the whole body and the water carries it
far better than air does. No rules...yet. Ask me later if anyone's
interested, though. <Evil chuckle...>

> When some shoots tiers out, how do you resolve if they burst, expecialy
> if they are run flats.

Normal tyres bursting or blowing out, I rule to be an immediate Crash
Test, and a modifier (depending how mean I feel) to Handling - probably a
+2 or +3. Run-flats are just that - the mil-spec versions today are
designed so the vehicle using them won't notice they're flat except the
automatic inflation system is showing a red light on that wheel. Back in
the 1970s, Dunlop marketed the "Denovo" which was completely immune to
nails etc. (self sealing) and would allow you to make a controlled
deceleration from a blowout at 70mph to a cruise at 30-40mph for 50 miles!
It was about $250 per tyre (in 1975) which killed it as a civil venture.
But if that's available on the open market to civilians... :-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 1995 22:36:25 GMT

Message no. 22 In your message dated Wednesday 26, April 1995 you wrote :
> On Tue, 25 Apr 1995, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
> > The London Sourcebook unfortunately might be useful to an outsider, but
its
> > infuriation factor to British players is enormous... Unfortunately FASA
> > didn't do as well as usual in their vision of Britain.
> >
> > [Lots of complaining about how things really shold be]
>
> Ok, ok. I get the picture, and yes, I was aware of these
problems,
> myself (I did say it had holes it it as wide as the Atlantic). But what I
> wanted to get across to the unsuspecting buyer is the fact that it really
> has a good 'running envirunment and a unique flavour to it. You have to
> get over that the stupid yankees are belittling the "Heart of the
> Empire", and remind yourself that this is fiction, and not an evaluation
> of current trends. In 60 years, a lot will have happened, and you just
> have to look at the History section to remind yourself of this. If Sweden
> would have the same ecological problems as mentioned there, I would
> fragging well vote for the Greens, too, never mind that they had low
> credibility in the '90s!
>
We didn't mean to sound like whinging, uptight, anally-retentive English
gits (well, I'm English, but my husband is from "The North", ie just beyond
Watford Gap service station on the M1 motorway, (*and* his parents are
Scottish!)) but there's more than enough problems here at the moment that
you could easily expand them into a passably *credible* future, without
producing a sourcebook that leaves us Brits feeling infuriated and the
Americans looking like patronising, poorly-informed geeks (well, Carl and
Marc anyway), We've had riots against the government, trade unions being
banned, our beloved National Health Service being run into the ground...
Lots of material if anyone had bothered to look. Instead we get turned
into Disneyland-across-the-Atlantic: a National Geographical special.

About as accurate as Dick van Dyke's "cockney" accent in "Mary
Poppins":-
"Hoh, hit's a jolly 'oliedye wiv yew, mairee Pawpins!" As someone trained
by sergeant-majors from the Green Jackets, that smarted... and so did being
so badly mishandled by FASA, who usually seem to work quite hard to produce
decent material. Were Germany and Ireland as bad? After London we couldn't
face buying "national" sourcebooks...

> Ok, so it wasn't the most probable depiction of UK in 2050, but
> it was the tone I wanted, and tone I got.

Granted: I daresay to an outsider it's good. FASA do know how to plant run
material in sourcebooks :-) The problem is we had already used a lot of
London, and their Britain was so radically different it was infuriating:
and the fact that it was so *wrong* made it worse.

Read The Great William Gibson(tm)'s "Mona Lisa Overdrive" for a more
accurate description of our 2050's London. And don't leave Covent Garden
out: it's one of our favourite places.

> <"USA Sourcebook" snipped>
> Yeah! I'll buy it the second it comes out! Thank you, Lord!
> -Jonas

No offence meant - just a very gentle thwap at the world in general, Don
Quixote setting off against the windmills, minnow in hand. Minnow? Well,
we're a small and poor nation, we can't afford carp... :-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 1995 10:07:35 BST

Message no. 23 IPE Grenades were specifically included within the bnody of FoF, on
the grenade page (you know with the horse-shoe shaped grenade; "close
only counts in grenades and horseshoes boy!"), they even gave them a
2nd ed damage code of 15S.

Phil (Renegade)

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 1995 12:13:08 +0200

Message no. 24 >> Plus you get some gear they dropped from 2nd ed. that, with a little
>> tinkering, can still fit into the game.
>
>Which bits did they completely strip out?
>
>IPE came back later, APDS has been modified? what else went?

IPE came back later, true (I'd already done my own IPE grenades by
increasing their damages but now use the ones from FOF), FirePower(tm) ammo
was dropped, but I reintroduced it at +1 Power, making it equivalent to
explosive but without the extra noise, let's see, something else was dropped
too, but I can't recall what (and I don't feel like comparing the SR2 list
and the SSC right now :)

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What the hell am I trying to say?
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 1995 12:14:13 +0200

Message no. 25 >Were Germany and Ireland as bad? After London we couldn't
>face buying "national" sourcebooks...

I'm not German so I can't say how accurate it is, but the German version of
the Germany Sourcebook is a really good book IMHO. It's not as slick-looking
as FASA's products, but it puts things the way FASA doesn't seem to dare
(probably because they're an American corp), and gives nice background
material on Germany. Maybe because it was written by Germans for the German
market, and then got translated into English...

About the London Sorcebook, I once went adventuring in Newcastle (both RL
and SR) and I believe the GM (Phill Steele, for those who remember him from
this list and the GM assistant bit on Paolo's page) pretty much made up his
own version of the Tyne Sprawl instead of using the one in the London
Sourcebook.

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What the hell am I trying to say?
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 1995 14:42:49 +6000

Message no. 26 Paul wrote:
>>> The London Sourcebook unfortunately might be useful to an outsider,
>>> but its
>>> infuriation factor to British players is enormous... Unfortunately
>>> FASA didn't do as well as usual in their vision of Britain.

Just as well this thread came up as it was the next book on my list.
Is it really all that bad? or is it just some areas, I also wanted
to know if it dealt with mainly London or covered other areas of Britain.
Future runs were going to be north england and possibly scotland. While
I know what these areas are like now and have a fair idea for the
atmosphere, I have no idea of how 2050's england fits into the general
scheme of things. Like does availibility of firearms dramatically increase
or will shadowrunners have to be more careful/subtle than in seatle or
whatever?

>> (I did say it had holes it it as wide as the Atlantic). But
>> what I wanted to get across to the unsuspecting buyer is the fact that
>> it really has a good 'running envirunment and a unique flavour to it.

But it'll be a bit of a shame if the unique flavour totally contradicts
my idea of what my country both is like now and might become.

>> remind yourself that this is fiction, and not an

It should still be vaguely credible, that can make the difference
between good fiction and bad fiction.

>> Sweden would have the same ecological problems as mentioned there, I
>> would fragging well vote for the Greens, too, never mind that they had
>> low credibility in the '90s!
>>
> We didn't mean to sound like whinging, uptight, anally-retentive English
> gits (well, I'm English, but my husband is from "The North", ie just
> beyond Watford Gap service station on the M1 motorway, (*and* his
> parents are Scottish!)) but there's more than enough problems here at
> the moment that you could easily expand them into a passably *credible*
> future,

True, but it also has to offer something for the shadowrun scene as a whole
(I don't know if it does this). Its too late to change it now but
assuming its not worth while is there any other source material for a
dark future britain? anything in all the things floating around the net
that everyone else gets to refer to etc.. i.e. any suggestions for
alternate material?

<more complaints removed>

> About as accurate as Dick van Dyke's "cockney" accent in "Mary
Poppins":-
> "Hoh, hit's a jolly 'oliedye wiv yew, mairee Pawpins!"

I guess you _really_ didn't like it if your gonna put them on par :)

> Granted: I daresay to an outsider it's good. FASA do know how to plant
> run material in sourcebooks :-) The problem is we had already used a lot
> of London, and their Britain was so radically different it was
> infuriating: and the fact that it was so *wrong* made it worse.

So how do you deal with it? written your own version, or just make it up
as you go along?

> Read The Great William Gibson(tm)'s "Mona Lisa Overdrive" for a more
> accurate description of our 2050's London. And don't leave Covent Garden
> out: it's one of our favourite places.

Ah, now theres a point I thought london would have subsided by 2050,
i.e. its currently sinking at an uncomfortable rate :)
combined with rising water levels, I thought the doom sayers reckoned
we'd have to change the capital in about 50 years time :)
(a bit like the image of london in split second - good film)

Phil
<Philip.hayward@***.uk>

From:	"Mark D. Fender" <mfender@******.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 1995 10:36:01 -0500

Message no. 27 On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >Were Germany and Ireland as bad? After London we couldn't
> >face buying "national" sourcebooks...
>
> I'm not German so I can't say how accurate it is, but the German version of
> the Germany Sourcebook is a really good book IMHO. It's not as slick-looking
> as FASA's products, but it puts things the way FASA doesn't seem to dare
> (probably because they're an American corp), and gives nice background
> material on Germany. Maybe because it was written by Germans for the German
> market, and then got translated into English...
>
I was under the impression that London Sourcebook was written by a Brit,
same as German Sourcebook. Where did i hear that? Maybe all theri
sourcebooks are written by epople who are actually from there. That
would improve the game a lot, becasue a city really does have a certain
feel to it. (Although I doubt an elf wrote the Tir books). Probably be
too cost prohibitive though.

PAX
Mark Fender
Death
Scurge

From:	Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 1995 17:14:10 -0500

Message no. 28 >Maybe because it was written by Germans for the German
>market, and then got translated into English...

It was written by Germans for FASA. From what I've gathered, it started as
a net.book out there (probably some BBS) and ended up getting published. Of
course, my sources could be completely wrong, too. Anyone out there know
for sure?

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>

From:	"J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 1995 23:21:29 -0400

Message no. 29 The bit on Federal DeeCee in NAGNA was pretty accurate, though
IMHO it wasn't extrapolated very well -- all the neighborhood security
ratings, etcetera were exactly right on as of the publishing date, but
many have changed in the intervening years in RL.
That's why my promised extended write-up on FDC for NERPS never
actually happened -- Paul Hume's version is close enough for use, and all
we could do is add some twists like a double-decker beltway.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "The Ogre philosopher Gnerdel beleived the purpose of life |
| was to live as high on the food chain as possible. |
| She refused to eat vegetarians, and preferred to live entirely |
| on creatures that preyed on sentient beings." |
| -Magic: The Gathering "Grey Ogre" |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------

From:	David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 1995 00:44:40 -0700

Message no. 30 On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >Were Germany and Ireland as bad? After London we couldn't
> >face buying "national" sourcebooks...
>
> I'm not German so I can't say how accurate it is, but the German version of
> the Germany Sourcebook is a really good book IMHO. It's not as slick-looking
> as FASA's products, but it puts things the way FASA doesn't seem to dare
> (probably because they're an American corp), and gives nice background
> material on Germany. Maybe because it was written by Germans for the German
> market, and then got translated into English...

According to Sam Lewis (FASA President), at a Pacificon 94
semiar, the German Text is not the same as the English translation. The
differences are significant enough for the German Authors to insist
that the American edition include that paragraph in German on the bottom
of page 6. It basicly says that in Germany the german langage edition is
the controlling one.

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

From:	P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 1995 12:18:51 BST

Message no. 31 The London sourcwebook was written by Britains (AFAIK), at least they
used to both work for Games Workshop (the british T$R), Carl
Sergant (sp) and Mark Gascoine wasnt' it?

I believbe they both did some stuff for TSR too, including the late-
lamented Greyhawk setting.

The Germany Sourcebook was translated from the Original German
version; Deutscheland In Den Schatten (Germany in the shadows
funnily enough, though I think a few bits and pieces were left
out. Like the gear that now graces a web page ropund here.

Phil (Renegade)

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 1995 20:39:42 GMT

Message no. 32 In your message dated Friday 28, April 1995 you wrote :
> Paul wrote:
> >>> The London Sourcebook unfortunately might be useful to an outsider,
> >>> but its
> >>> infuriation factor to British players is enormous... Unfortunately
> >>> FASA didn't do as well as usual in their vision of Britain.
>
> Just as well this thread came up as it was the next book on my list.
> Is it really all that bad? or is it just some areas, I also wanted
> to know if it dealt with mainly London or covered other areas of Britain.

It concentrates on London but most of the country gets outlined.

> Future runs were going to be north england and possibly scotland. While
> I know what these areas are like now and have a fair idea for the
> atmosphere, I have no idea of how 2050's england fits into the general
> scheme of things. Like does availibility of firearms dramatically
> increase or will shadowrunners have to be more careful/subtle than in
> seatle or whatever?

In theory guns are rarer. In practice, the only published run (Imago) in
Britain had you able to get almost anything you were likely to need. Not
something I liked... as a FAC holder I know how hard *decent* guns are to
come by. There are lots of sawn-off shotguns and World War 2 antiques
around, but if you want a Glock automatic, get it legally or forget it.
What would change that in their timeline? Nothing that I saw.

> But it'll be a bit of a shame if the unique flavour totally contradicts
> my idea of what my country both is like now and might become.

If you aren't British, it's probably good material. Just don't assume it
bears any relation to the real United Kingdom :-) After all, I don't expect
to see psychopathic gangs, arcologies et al if I ever visit Seattle, and I
don't know how well 2050s Seattle follows on from today's. If you are, then
you'll probably have real trouble assimilating it credibly into your game.

> >> remind yourself that this is fiction, and not an
>
> It should still be vaguely credible, that can make the difference
> between good fiction and bad fiction.

It didn't seem credible. Too many gaps and mistakes.

> > there's more than enough problems here at
> > the moment that you could easily expand them into a passably *credible*
> > future,

> True, but it also has to offer something for the shadowrun scene as a
> whole (I don't know if it does this).

It didn't in any way that seemed usable to us. I think our perspective on
it was wrong. As a sourcebook it's not bad: as I said, you have to be able
to seperate it from the material it purports to cover.

> Its too late to change it now but
> assuming its not worth while is there any other source material for a
> dark future britain? anything in all the things floating around the net
> that everyone else gets to refer to etc.. i.e. any suggestions for
> alternate material?

Give us time and we'll see ;-)

> > About as accurate as Dick van Dyke's "cockney" accent in "Mary
Poppins":-
> > "Hoh, hit's a jolly 'oliedye wiv yew, mairee Pawpins!"
>
> I guess you _really_ didn't like it if your gonna put them on par :)
> So how do you deal with it? written your own version, or just make it up
> as you go along?

Make it up based on what we know and what *we* think will happen. It's just
sort of evolved... like the Dragon who objects to fox-hunting. She eats the
huntsmen and their horses. "After all, they're noisy vermin, and it's good
sport..."

> > Read The Great William Gibson(tm)'s "Mona Lisa Overdrive" for a more
> > accurate description of our 2050's London. And don't leave Covent
> > Garden out: it's one of our favourite places.
>
> Ah, now theres a point I thought london would have subsided by 2050,
> i.e. its currently sinking at an uncomfortable rate :)
> combined with rising water levels, I thought the doom sayers reckoned
> we'd have to change the capital in about 50 years time :)
> (a bit like the image of london in split second - good film)

I liked that one and we adapted it. Lynch fits Rutger Hauer's character
pretty well in some ways: less edgy, though. Venice lasted a long time, no
reason London couldn't. Just keep baling... :-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sun, 30 Apr 1995 01:17:15 +1000

Message no. 33 Philip Hayward writes:

> (I don't know if it does this). Its too late to change it now but
> assuming its not worth while is there any other source material for a
> dark future britain? anything in all the things floating around the net
> that everyone else gets to refer to etc.. i.e. any suggestions for
> alternate material?

I'm sure there's something out there in 'netland someplace about an area of
England or somesuch, the word <something>sprawl comes to mind. Maybe it was
in one of the NAGEE's. I never got around to reading it though, so I can't
say what it's like. Still can't remember the name of it though <ugh>!

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 1995 19:55:24 +0200

Message no. 34 > I was under the impression that London Sourcebook was written by a Brit,
> same as German Sourcebook.

You are absolutely right.

> Where did i hear that? Maybe all theri
> sourcebooks are written by epople who are actually from there. That
> would improve the game a lot, becasue a city really does have a certain
> feel to it. (Although I doubt an elf wrote the Tir books). Probably be
> too cost prohibitive though.

This actually does hapen, Carl Sargent and Mark (?) Gasgoine (sp?) are
British. Dont ask me why they allegedly did such an inacurate job out
of the London Sourcebook.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sun, 30 Apr 1995 14:31:18 +0200

Message no. 35 >I'm sure there's something out there in 'netland someplace about an area of
>England or somesuch, the word <something>sprawl comes to mind. Maybe it was
>in one of the NAGEE's. I never got around to reading it though, so I can't
>say what it's like. Still can't remember the name of it though <ugh>!

That would be the Tynesprawl Slang guide, a guide to "talking Tynesprawl and
make a fool of yourself doing it." Written by someone who isn't even from
the area originally :)

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Beware of unfamiliar chickens
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	david@***.mcneese.edu (David Doucet II)
Subject:	books
Date:	Mon, 26 Feb 96 16:48:43 CST

Message no. 36 From: david (David Doucet II)
Subject: books
To: SHADOWRN@****.iTribe.net
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 16:46:23 CST
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL2]

About 1 year ago all of my shadowrun gameing supplies burned up when my
truck blew up. I recentally have got back into Shadowrun and found out
that most of the books are out of print. Could somebody help me find
Paranormal Animals of North America, and Europe, Virtual Realities, and
the Rigger Black Book? Any help would be greatly appricated.

Thanks,
David

From:	david@***.mcneese.edu (David Doucet II)
Subject:	books
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 96 15:45:30 CST

Message no. 37 I recently got back into playing Shadowrun, but I am having problems
getting some of the source books. About a year and a half ago all of our
gaming groups supplies burned when my buddies truck blew up. If anyone
could help me find Paranormal Animals of North America, Virtual
Realities, and the Rigger Black Book I would greatly appricate it.

Thanks,
David

From:	Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject:	Re: books
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:39:22 -0600

Message no. 38 At 03:45 PM 2/28/96 CST, you wrote:
>I recently got back into playing Shadowrun, but I am having problems
>getting some of the source books. About a year and a half ago all of our
>gaming groups supplies burned when my buddies truck blew up. If anyone
>could help me find Paranormal Animals of North America, Virtual
>Realities, and the Rigger Black Book I would greatly appricate it.

Hmmm, if you buddies truck blew up with the gaming gear in it, I suggest you
stop playing, for you are taking the game way to literally/seriously :)

I have the first vr book if you want to buy it... but with the new one out I
wouldn't know why you would... all of the books you mentioned are out of
print now (probably for revisions but I haven't heard about PARANA)...
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
or if that doesn't work
Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu

From:	Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject:	Re: books
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:39:22 -0600

Message no. 39 >At 03:45 PM 2/28/96 CST, you wrote:
>I recently got back into playing Shadowrun, but I am having problems
>getting some of the source books. About a year and a half ago all of our
>gaming groups supplies burned when my buddies truck blew up. If anyone
>could help me find Paranormal Animals of North America, Virtual
>Realities, and the Rigger Black Book I would greatly appricate it.

Are you sure these are out of print? As far as I know, they were all in
the usual spots when I was at the gaming shop. I also seen Harlequin too.
Although it could just be they haven't sold their final copies yet.

BTW: Don't bother with the VR 1.0, get VR 2.0. Trust me on this.

U-Gene << Ah Ha! Now I got it!!! I think... >>

From:	fauxpas@******.net (Faux Pas)
Subject:	Re: books
Date:	Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:03:58 -0600

Message no. 40 >If anyone
>could help me find Paranormal Animals of North America, Virtual
>Realities, and the Rigger Black Book I would greatly appricate it.

You're going to want to get VR 2.0. It replaces the book Virtual Realities
and makes running the Matrix a much much faster gaming experience. The
other two books I've seen at a gaming shop that was in existance for only a
few weeks. When I went by to purchase my copy of the RBB, the entire shop
was gone. Not just empty with a "Closed for Business" sign out front, but
gee oh ehn ee, gone.

You might want to try a used book shop, comic shop, or a gaming shop near
where you live for the PANA and VR 2.0 (I've seen it for $13.25).

-Thomas Deeny
Cartoonist At Large

"Aw, geez, look what hit the fan."

Message no. 41 Where would I be able to find Shadowrun books at?

From:	Jarrod D Steeley <tinyskullhane@****.COM>
Subject:	Books
Date:	Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:52:33 EST

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sun, 12 Jan 1997 02:59:00 +0000

Message no. 42 |
|Where would I be able to find Shadowrun books at?

Try a gaming shop or Model shop....

Where abouts are you? Someone might be in the same area.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Fro <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:04:33 -0700

Message no. 43 At 21:52 1/11/97 EST, you wrote:
>Where would I be able to find Shadowrun books at?

Most big bookstores have the mail rulebook and several sourcebooks. A
comic / RPG store should have most of the in print ones. Dufferin Game
Room also carries some RPG books, and you can find them for sale on the web
at most online gaming stores. www.discountgames.com being an example, not
sure if its a good example as I haven't used it..

-Fro
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sun, 12 Jan 1997 03:42:02 +0000

Message no. 44 |
|At 21:52 1/11/97 EST, you wrote:
|>Where would I be able to find Shadowrun books at?
|
|Most big bookstores have the mail rulebook and several sourcebooks.

alas, not in England....

|A
|comic / RPG store should have most of the in print ones.

Sometimes in England.....

One of the best places to look (in england) is Virgin Megastore....

Or Games/Model shops...
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sat, 11 Jan 1997 23:25:39 EST

Message no. 45 On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:52:33 EST Jarrod D Steeley
<tinyskullhane@****.COM> writes:
>Where would I be able to find Shadowrun books at?

You can try a large book store, a comics store, or a store that caters to
gamers only (ofter referred to as a gaming store:). Lastly you may be
able to find SR stuff at a hobby store. For local places, look up
collectibles, hobbies, games, and/or books in the Yellow Pages. You can
also mail-order the stuff straight from FASA. The order form is available
somewhere at FASA's web site (www.fasa.com), or you can e-mail
FASAInfo@***.com for the FASA '97 products catalog...speaking of...

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:05:10 +0100

Message no. 46 Jarrod D Steeley said on 21:52/11 Jan 97...

> Where would I be able to find Shadowrun books at?

Game stores (also ones that do mail order), perhaps some regular book
stores, and I believe you can also order them directly from FASA, though I
wouldn't recommend this if you live outside North America (check their web
page at www.fasa.com). If you're seriously thinking about playing
Shadowrun, you'll only need one book to get you started: the Shadowrun,
Second Edition main rules, which is FASA reference number 7901 and ISBN
1-55560-180-4. Also buy at least 10 six-sided dice together with the
rulebook, if you don't have (m)any, because SR uses a lot of them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Any two can play.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:19:52 -0500

Message no. 47 >Subject: Re: Books
Gurth wrote,
>Also buy at least 10 six-sided dice together with the
>rulebook, if you don't have (m)any, because SR uses a lot of them.

Having some in a second color could also possible help.

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:11:25 UT

Message no. 48 >|Most big bookstores have the mail rulebook and several sourcebooks.

>alas, not in England....
HMph! I don't know about you but I have two virgin megastores and at least 4
hobby shops within a.....reasonable distance...The best is the one in finchley
(london), but the ones in brighton are okay....just out of curiostiy where the
hell is keele????
>|A
>|comic / RPG store should have most of the in print ones.
>Sometimes in England.....
>One of the best places to look (in england) is Virgin Megastore....
yup or leisure games finchley
>Or Games/Model shops...
I am SOOOOo glad you didn't say G\/\/ there, however if you want a laugh go
into one and say very loudly, "Do you have a copy of CALL OF CTHULHU?" as it
was originally done by them (or something) and they sold it...Arcane recently
voted it No.1 rpg, that was the survey that Gurth talked about december
>Andrew Halliwell
tim ntoo

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:05:38 +0000

Message no. 49 |I am SOOOOo glad you didn't say G\/\/ there,

Please.... No bad language in my e-mail....
:)

|however if you want a laugh go into one and say very loudly,
"Do you have a copy of CALL OF CTHULHU?"

Chaosium licensed it with them for the UK, and they totally bollocksed it up.

After the licence ran out, Chaosium grabbed back all their stuff, and
actually released some stuff for them.... (Stormbringer was another one)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Books
Date:	Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:34:22 -0500

Message no. 50 Peter Coxon wrote,
>I am SOOOOo glad you didn't say G\/\/ there, however if you want a laugh go
>into one and say very loudly, "Do you have a copy of CALL OF CTHULHU?" as it
>was originally done by them (or something) and they sold it.

The or something was infact G\/\/ printed (and therby co-published)
the 3rd edition of Call Of Cthulhu hardback from Chaosium. I've got my
copy in my Bookcase.

- MC23, Cthulhu for President campaign staff mamber -
"Go 'PODS!"

Message no. 51 Marcin Serkies wrote:
|
| >The main rule book. Everything else is dependant on what type of a
| >campaign your running.
|
| Hmmm... surely there will be some magic because i`ve at least one
| ONLY-MAGIC-NOTHING-MORE player, some shooting ONLY-SHOOTING-NOTHING-ELSE
| player ;) and hanging around in shadows... dealing with all that shit that
| is destroying the world... and just living :)

I'd still recommend starting with the main book and waiting at least
one adventure before picking up the Grimoire and Street Samurai
Catalog. Then wait a little longer before getting Awakenings. Get
good and comfortable with the core rules before you move on.

Just my two cents.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

Message no. 52 At 09:55 AM 6/3/97 -0600, you wrote:

>I'd still recommend starting with the main book and waiting at least
>one adventure before picking up the Grimoire and Street Samurai
>Catalog. Then wait a little longer before getting Awakenings. Get
>good and comfortable with the core rules before you move on.

Okee thanx... basically i know the rules because i`ve played few times...
Hmm i hope that i`ll get that books in Poland. If i want to buy book abroad
(by mail) i have to pay 40% more than original price so it`s senseless....

BTW: thanx for suggestions...

EOT

c-ya

yasiu

Message no. 53 At 09:55 AM 6/3/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Marcin Serkies wrote:
>|
>| >The main rule book. Everything else is dependant on what type of a
>| >campaign your running.
>|
>| Hmmm... surely there will be some magic because i`ve at least one
>| ONLY-MAGIC-NOTHING-MORE player, some shooting ONLY-SHOOTING-NOTHING-ELSE
>| player ;) and hanging around in shadows... dealing with all that shit that
>| is destroying the world... and just living :)

Tell me about it. Let me offer you a spin on it. I used to have a player he
quit. Said he didn't like fighting against the supernatural but only played
mages go fig. Played two different mages one who was supposed to be a
catholic priest who ended up not no priestly. All of his mages went about
trying to use the appropriate spells to transmogrify himself into a combat
mage. After I figured out he wanted to be a slaughtering machine with no
problems I asked him why he didn't play a street sammie his reply was"
Cyberwares a sin". To you or the character. To me. It's fiction, it doesn't
exist. "It's still a sin". You gotta wonder about people like that.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Message no. 54 At 01:26 AM 6/4/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Tell me about it. Let me offer you a spin on it. I used to have a player he
>quit. Said he didn't like fighting against the supernatural but only played
>mages go fig. Played two different mages one who was supposed to be a
>catholic priest who ended up not no priestly. All of his mages went about
>trying to use the appropriate spells to transmogrify himself into a combat
>mage. After I figured out he wanted to be a slaughtering machine with no
>problems I asked him why he didn't play a street sammie his reply was"
>Cyberwares a sin". To you or the character. To me. It's fiction, it doesn't
>exist. "It's still a sin". You gotta wonder about people like that.

My problem is not that mage-only player because he`s playing mages very good
(but i need any book for it) but the second player who surely will be
street-sammy with big guns and he wants only to kill. But i can`t kick him
out because we don`t have many players where i live... (rpg is still not
very popular in Poland)... so i must do something with him :)) (but i dont
want to drop cows on his head :))

c-ya

yasiu

Message no. 55 > My problem is not that mage-only player because he`s playing mages very good
> (but i need any book for it) but the second player who surely will be
> street-sammy with big guns and he wants only to kill. But i can`t kick him
> out because we don`t have many players where i live... (rpg is still not
> very popular in Poland)... so i must do something with him :)) (but i dont
> want to drop cows on his head :))

I have a player with a similar problem. He always plays street sams.
They always have wired reflexes - II and some mix of muscle rep and
dermal plating, and smartgun. Stats A, tech B, skills C.
Invariably. They are either ex-military or real fucked up in the
head, or both. He has *no* emphasis on non-combat skills.

This isn't a 'solution' as such, but I make sure at least half or a
third of the runs I design does not necessarily include combat, only
roleplaying. But I suspect you need to be experienced as a GM to pull
that off well, or at least prepare very well for those sessions. That
way the players usually have characters useful in both combat and
other situations. The problem is if they don't want to play
non-combat runs. A way to find out what they want to play, tell them
they get three missions at once - they have to choose one (One's in
Australia, one in .. Poland?., and one in Washington, e.g., with
obviously different emphasis. One is to find a missing person (no
combat expected), one is to eliminate a terrorist cell (Orc Barbarian
time) and one is to extract someone from somewhere. (mainly stealth,
some combat). Or just talk with them, of course..

(To those in the Shadow e-mail campaign listening: We'll see, I'm not
sure I'll stick to the 1/2-1/3'd ratio here. I'll see how the medium
works out.).

--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."

Message no. 56 Marcin Serkies said on 11:23/ 4 Jun 97...

> My problem is not that mage-only player because he`s playing mages very good
> (but i need any book for it) but the second player who surely will be
> street-sammy with big guns and he wants only to kill. But i can`t kick him
> out because we don`t have many players where i live... (rpg is still not
> very popular in Poland)...

I know your problem :(

> so i must do something with him :)) (but i dont want to drop cows on his
> head :))

A good way to try and make him change his ways is to give him a situation
that he _can_ solve by shooting everyone. However, if he does, then later
in the adventure, the players find out that one of the people they killed
(make _sure_ that person gets killed by the trigger-happy sam) is the only
one who can give them the information they need to bring back to their Mr.
Johnson.
Don't let them know this five minutes after the fight is over, BTW. First
let them spend several hours tracking down various leads, getting into
other trouble, and so on, and only _then_ they hear from someone "Yeah,
you know that Jane Doe? She's got the chip stashed away somewhere but she
didn't tell anyone where." Then they try to find Jane Doe, and discover
she was killed by the "kill 'em all" sam in the shoot-out several hours
(real time, not game time) earlier...

Another thing you can do is show him that walking around with big guns (if
he tends to do that) is dangerous to his health. Sure, he has such a high
initiative that he always goes first in a combat, but what if there are 20
Lone Star cops? He can't kill them all before they get their actions, and
with their heavy pistols they can do some serious damage to him... You
don't have to put the character into a situation like this, just
mentioning it and letting him work out the details of the firefight can be
enough.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well that's allright now, you don't listen to me anyway.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 57 At 02:24 PM 6/4/97 +0000, you wrote:

>I have a player with a similar problem. He always plays street sams.
>They always have wired reflexes - II and some mix of muscle rep and
>dermal plating, and smartgun. Stats A, tech B, skills C.
>Invariably. They are either ex-military or real fucked up in the
>head, or both. He has *no* emphasis on non-combat skills.

Hehe it`s like a one big players-mind :))) there is lot`s of them...

>This isn't a 'solution' as such, but I make sure at least half or a
>third of the runs I design does not necessarily include combat, only
>roleplaying. But I suspect you need to be experienced as a GM to pull
>that off well, or at least prepare very well for those sessions. That
>way the players usually have characters useful in both combat and
>other situations. The problem is if they don't want to play
>non-combat runs. A way to find out what they want to play, tell them
>they get three missions at once - they have to choose one (One's in
>Australia, one in .. Poland?., and one in Washington, e.g., with
>obviously different emphasis. One is to find a missing person (no
>combat expected), one is to eliminate a terrorist cell (Orc Barbarian
>time) and one is to extract someone from somewhere. (mainly stealth,
>some combat). Or just talk with them, of course..

It`s some kind of solution... but he`ll get first mission to make some cover
for his bad playing and then blow up everything :))) like in any other...
well i`ve figured out that if i`m ignoring some of his words he`s just
leaving game and (strange) is playing on next session with same behavior,
but do`nt have him on that session at least. But it`s brutal way and i don`t
want to do that too often...

c-ya

yasiu

Message no. 58 At 10:21 PM 6/4/97 +0100, you wrote:

>A good way to try and make him change his ways is to give him a situation
>that he _can_ solve by shooting everyone. However, if he does, then later
>in the adventure, the players find out that one of the people they killed
>(make _sure_ that person gets killed by the trigger-happy sam) is the only
>one who can give them the information they need to bring back to their Mr.
>Johnson.
>Don't let them know this five minutes after the fight is over, BTW. First
>let them spend several hours tracking down various leads, getting into
>other trouble, and so on, and only _then_ they hear from someone "Yeah,
>you know that Jane Doe? She's got the chip stashed away somewhere but she
>didn't tell anyone where." Then they try to find Jane Doe, and discover
>she was killed by the "kill 'em all" sam in the shoot-out several hours
>(real time, not game time) earlier...

I`ll try this one... hehe :) as far as i know this guy he`ll take his fat
ass from that session and go home - and he`ll be back on next session with
same behavior but few times in a row with different methods and he should
realize what i`m trying to say.

>Another thing you can do is show him that walking around with big guns (if
>he tends to do that) is dangerous to his health. Sure, he has such a high
>initiative that he always goes first in a combat, but what if there are 20
>Lone Star cops? He can't kill them all before they get their actions, and
>with their heavy pistols they can do some serious damage to him... You
>don't have to put the character into a situation like this, just
>mentioning it and letting him work out the details of the firefight can be
>enough.

I`ve done something like this... he lose... and next day he "accidentaly"
killed my character in RuneQuest he`s GMing :(( and i don`t like to lost my
characters all the time...

c-ya

yasiu

Message no. 59 Anyone want to list the major sourcebooks and the SR times? i.e., Fields
of Fire was 2055. I don't have all the books with me, so I don't know what
stuff to allow in a early 50's campaign.

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mjohnson
ftp://150.135.184.121 login: anonymous pw: email
----------------------------

Message no. 60 These are some of the books I don't have.

I was wondering if I could get an overview of what new rules are presented
in them and what I would use them for IMC. Plus, I was wondering If I could
get a Good-Bad Review for If I should by it.

Corporate Shadowfiles
Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.)
Awakenings
Threats
Portfolio of a Dragon
Underworld
Target: UCAS (Again, Is this a novel?)
High Tech & Low life
Gamemaster Screen
Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this true?)

Also, this might help you decide if I should by the book. The books I have
are:

Seattle
FoF
SR2
VR2
R2
CyberTech
ShadowTech
Grimiore 2 (Listed on the FASA site as 15th ED)
SSC 2
*NERPS: All
*The Collected NAGEE
*TSS

*These aren't FASA products, in case you are a clueless newbie.

Also, given you know my entire library of SR products I was wondering if
there are any OOP (or IP) Books (not novels, mind you) that I should start
looking for (though I doubt I will ever find them.)

Message no. 61 At 22:59 28/01/98 -0600, you wrote:

>Corporate Shadowfiles

If you like heavy corps, go for it. Mainly background info.

>Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.)

Sourcebook -- I don't own it.

>Awakenings

Nice book if you're into heavy magic. Good fiction, IMO. (Hi Steve!;)

>Threats

Don't own..

>Portfolio of a Dragon

If you plan on using Dunkies' death in your game, this is a must. Fun book.
(Hi Steve!)

>Underworld

If you hit www.rpg.net and goto the reviews section, you'll see a
favourable review of this from me. (Hi Steve!;)

>Target: UCAS (Again, Is this a novel?)

Slim sourcebook -- Once again, review at RPG.NET. (Once again, Hi Steve!)

>High Tech & Low life

Art book. Nice if you want to spend alot of money on art, but game.useless

>Gamemaster Screen

Make your own, IMO..

>Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this true?)

Only if you let your players get away with stupid things.

Hope this helps,
Adam
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ AdamJ@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
The Shadowrun Archive Co-Maintainer: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun

Message no. 62 Boyd writes:
>These are some of the books I don't have.
>
>I was wondering if I could get an overview of what new rules are presented
>in them and what I would use them for IMC. Plus, I was wondering If I could
>get a Good-Bad Review for If I should by it.
>
>Corporate Shadowfiles
Very good rundown on basic economic theory and how it applies to Shadowrun.
Includes a fairly good section explaining how corps compete, a fairly decent
rating system for corps, and a rundown on all the AAA corps. Worthwhile
having, but may be superseded shortly by Blood In The Boardroom.

>Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.)
Good sourcebook for Chicago post bugs. Good rules on handling insect
spirits. Essential, IMHO, if you want to run bugs, otherwise ignore it.

>Awakenings
Lots of new magic rules, and some good descriptions on how magic works. Get
it. Wish I hadn't lost my copy.

>Threats
>Portfolio of a Dragon
Umm... it's a sourcebook of sorts. A rundown on the circumstances on DD's
death, and some plot ideas. Worthwhile, but far from essential... yet.

>Underworld
>Target: UCAS (Again, Is this a novel?)
>High Tech & Low life
>Gamemaster Screen
Good summary of the rules, but not on par with the freely available GM's
Companion. If you don't have something to hide your dice rolling behind, get
it. It includes a pretty decent module, and some standup figures.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons.

>Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this true?)

Message no. 63 >These are some of the books I don't have.
>
>I was wondering if I could get an overview of what new rules are presented
>in them and what I would use them for IMC. Plus, I was wondering If I
could
>get a Good-Bad Review for If I should by it.
>
>Corporate Shadowfiles
This depends on how in depth you like your Corporations, it has some good
stuff on the influence Shadowrunners have on the Corporate world. But not
an entirely essential buy unless you want a behind the scenes look at
Corporations.

>Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.)
Not as useful as it was, if you are playing anywhere near official FASA
timeline, as the events described in it have been toned down in a later
book (Target: UCAS, i think). But as Robert said a good book for if you
want to include Bug spirits in your games.

>Awakenings
Adds to the Magic game almost as much as G2 did, though it has some faults
this is probably the book I'd recommend most out of the list.

>Threats
Big NPCs to frighten your players with. If you can't think of nasties
yourself then buy it, otherwise it would be well down my list.

>Portfolio of a Dragon
Essentially a collection of run ideas, not one of the better books and you
could really do this yourself, just make a huge list of one line run ideas
and call it a will.

>Underworld
Another one of the better books and definately worth looking at if you're
planning on running a criminal underworld campaign. It adds a more polished
picture of the criminal orginisations, so really a case of is it type of
book you're gonna use. (Course I could biased having used this book as the
start of a huge campaign).

>Target: UCAS (Again, Is this a novel?)
No its a sourcebook, virtually pointless I would have said, unless you are
desperate to keep in with the FASA vision of the world. Has very little
rule stuff that is essential.

>High Tech & Low life
I think this is actually a book of collected art. I've got a copy but just
can't remember if this is the right name.

>Gamemaster Screen
Nice for having all the combat stuff in one place. The contacts book gives
you more contact options and you can hide your dice and notes behind the
screen. Personally I use it all the time, but what can I say it's a screen.
The figures are worthless though.

>Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this true?)
I wouldn't say it's a munchkin magnet, it really depends how you use the
book, it's added a lot to my games, but the Edges and Flaws bit is
sometimes the only way of getting players to make up backgrounds. It isn't
the all essential book, but it looks like FASA is bringing in more bits
from it, like the Contacts with levels so it may be worth picking up from
that point of view.

Well the above is IMHO so ignore whatever doesn't fit with someone elses
opinion.

But my personal order of books would be:

Awakenings
Underworld
GMs Screen
Companion
Bug City
Corporate Shadowfiles
Portfolio of a Dragon
Threats
Target: UCAS
High Tech and Low Life.

Message no. 64 >These are some of the books I don't have.
>
>I was wondering if I could get an overview of what new rules are presented
>in them and what I would use them for IMC. Plus, I was wondering If I could
>get a Good-Bad Review for If I should by it.
>
>Corporate Shadowfiles

A lot of stuff about corps. It doesn't give much rules (the ones it
provides are not really useful either, IMO) but there is a good job for
describing the way corps function and deescribes the corp court. Really
worth buying if you ask me.

>Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.)

Describes chicago after the *burning bright* novel. It's useful if you
intend to run a campaign with a lot of insect spirits. Otherwise, it's not
nessecary.

>Awakenings

Good stuff. It provides background about traditions and about physads. If
this isn't nessecary, it's useful for your players. As new rules, you have
voodoo magic (which is fine) and some new spells/powers. There are also new
things about focus addiction and things like that.
IMO, you should wait for SR3 which should give explanations about magic and
perhaps it will include rules from awakenings.

>Threats

I really like this one. Many secret societies are described. All these are
very powerful (these are the big players) and plan to either rule or
destroy the world. All this stuff makes SR a real dark world.
If you prefer standard runs, you don't need it. It'll only be useful for
your own SR culture or for involving your players into big... threats. :)

>Portfolio of a Dragon

I was a bit disapointed by this one. You can resume this book as a big list
of items and peopla names. It lacks explanations and interconnexions
between the different elements but could give some ideas for runs if you
lack any.

>Underworld

I like this too. It describes the three major crime organizations (mafia,
yak and seoulpa rings) in a pretty well manner. It has good historical
background and describes well each group's tactics.
As Corp shadowfiles, I think it's really useful for all this background.

>Target: UCAS (Again, Is this a novel?)

It describes chicago after the opening of the barrier and other plots in
the UCAS. It's a fine reading but isn't really necessary if you play in
Seattle. The background is rather local (outside of seattle) with the
exception of the discussion about D's death.

>High Tech & Low life

Images... Only images. They're not all fine either.

>Gamemaster Screen

Make your own. If you don't have time, you could buy it. Again, perhaps you
should wait for SR3. I think they should edit a new one at that time.

>Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this true?)

Not really. There are good things and bad things. The new creation system
is fine. Rules about contacts are also good IMO. Rules about lycanthropes
stinks IMO. For edges and flaws, the idea is good but it gives munchkins
new possibilities. IMO, you only need to keep careful about this, otherwise
it gives some new talents to the characters.

>Also, this might help you decide if I should by the book. The books I have
>are:
>
>Seattle
>FoF
>SR2
>VR2
>R2
>CyberTech
>ShadowTech
>Grimiore 2 (Listed on the FASA site as 15th ED)
>SSC 2
>*NERPS: All
>*The Collected NAGEE
>*TSS
>
>*These aren't FASA products, in case you are a clueless newbie.

You have enough books to GM SR. Other sourcebooks would give some plus but
aren't nessecary.

>Also, given you know my entire library of SR products I was wondering if
>there are any OOP (or IP) Books (not novels, mind you) that I should start
>looking for (though I doubt I will ever find them.)

Novels could prove useful because some of them provide some background to SR.
If you want me to give you a sourcebook or a novel to buy, you need to tell
what sort of game you GM or what you plan to GM.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

Message no. 65 Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. said on 22:59/28 Jan 98...

> I was wondering if I could get an overview of what new rules are presented
> in them and what I would use them for IMC. Plus, I was wondering If I could
> get a Good-Bad Review for If I should by it.

<plug for Fro>Check out The Shadowrun Supplemental issue 1 for short
reviews of SR books.</plug for Fro>

> Corporate Shadowfiles

The only rules in this book are for giving ratings to corporations, and
what might make those ratings gor up or down. The rest of the book is a
Shadowland file describing how corps do business. IMO very intesting to
read, but not something you'll use in a game session.

> Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.)

Not a novel, but once again a Shadowland file about what happened in
Chicago, starting around 22 August 2055 and going on from there. There are
rules for insect spirits, as well as surviving in the CZ, and trying to
get out of it.

> Awakenings

More talk about magic, and rules for it. If you want to play a houngan
(voudoun shaman), this is where you should look. The book is a bit strange
in that many of the Shadowland sections seem intended for beginners, while
the rules look like they're meant for palyers who know the other magic
rules by heart... Anyway, if you don't own the Grimoire and can apply its
rules, don't bother buying this yet.

> Threats

Not many rules at all, mainly descriptions of various high-level threats
that GMs can weave campaigns around. The format makes it very hard to give
to your players, because the behind-the-scenes info follows right after
each chapter.

> Portfolio of a Dragon

No rules, only Dunkelzahn's will and articles about what's bound to happen
after he died.

> Underworld

Shadowland chapters about criminal organizations, and some rules for
giving them ratings, much like Corporate Shadowfiles did for corps.

> Target: UCAS (Again, Is this a novel?)

Again, no. It describes Boston, Detroit, and Chicago (after it's been
cleared of the bugs), and gives some rules for specific situations that
apply to those cities, for example for playing ghouls as PCs.

> High Tech & Low life

Art book. I looked in it once and the only way I'll add this to my
collection is if someone gives it to me.

> Gamemaster Screen

This is just a screen to hide your books and dice behind while playing;
the back of the screen has often-used tables for quick reference, and the
set includes a booklet with "new" archetypes and contacts (I put "new"
in
quotes because all of them appeared in previous SR books) plus some
fold-over cardboard standups for characters. If you have a GM screen from
another game already, you don't really need this.

> Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this true?)

This has lots of optional rules, many of which aren't really my cup of
tea, but on the whole it can be useful if you want to add something to
your game beyond the basic rules.

> Also, this might help you decide if I should by the book. The books I have
> are:
[snip]
> Grimiore 2 (Listed on the FASA site as 15th ED)

If you look at the cover, you'll notice it says that on there too. It's
because the book sort of pretends to be a 2053 book (the first edition
Grimoire claimed to be 14th edition, 2050).

> Also, given you know my entire library of SR products I was wondering if
> there are any OOP (or IP) Books (not novels, mind you) that I should start
> looking for (though I doubt I will ever find them.)

* Sprawl Sites, in case you need maps and/or encounters.

* Corporate Security Handbook, if you want to know about how security in
the 2050s works (though most of it you can think of yourself too).

* Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, which deals with some good stuff
that players will often run into (fashion, fast-food restaurants, air
travel, basic security, coffin hotels, and more).

* Lone Star -- as a GM you can't afford _not_ to know about the police,
IMHO :)

* Plastic Warriors books ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
People who live in glass houses ...
... should turn out the lights before they undress.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 66 -----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>

<sniperoo>

Okay, I think I have a good idea of what to get and in what order thanx to
all of you. (Boy, there's alot of FASA world BG out there ain't there)

> Grimiore 2 (Listed on the FASA site as 15th ED)

If you look at the cover, you'll notice it says that on there too. It's
because the book sort of pretends to be a 2053 book (the first edition
Grimoire claimed to be 14th edition, 2050).

Yeah, I noticed that when I got the book, it just sort of surpised be taht
fasa listed it like that on the product list.

> Also, given you know my entire library of SR products I was wondering if
> there are any OOP (or IP) Books (not novels, mind you) that I should start
> looking for (though I doubt I will ever find them.)

* Sprawl Sites, in case you need maps and/or encounters.

* Corporate Security Handbook, if you want to know about how security in
the 2050s works (though most of it you can think of yourself too).

* Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, which deals with some good stuff
that players will often run into (fashion, fast-food restaurants, air
travel, basic security, coffin hotels, and more).

* Lone Star -- as a GM you can't afford _not_ to know about the police,
IMHO :)

* Plastic Warriors books ;)

Nice plug. Where can I get these books? I'm in a small town so, I was
wondering if anyone know a place that I can order remotely (via
phone/fax/mail/etc.) and that delivers. they are all (I think) OOP can so I
figure are hard to get, if you find any of them e-mail me. I'll probably buy
them off of ya. ('cept for spraw sites, I got that nerps program that makes
blocks for ya and I can match my own buildings to the descriptions...
sometimes it's actually useful.)

Message no. 67 At 10:10 PM 1/28/98 -0700, Adam J wrote these timeless words:
>At 22:59 28/01/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>Corporate Shadowfiles
>
>If you like heavy corps, go for it. Mainly background info.
>
Very much Backround info. Outside of the last dozen pages or so, I
personally found the book useless. And even the last dozen pages were
annoying...

"Let's see... Aztec produces Agriculture 6. What the hell does that mean??"

I'd be much more interested in seeing lists of products rather than generic
numbers...

However... If you ever want to allow the players to get involved with the
corps on a financial or political level though, this would be a pretty good
book...

There are plans for a new Corp Book later this year, and this should be
much better for a "Street Level" game, according to the PR at Gen Con.
Should be much more in depth on what the corps actually do, and the
relationships between corps (As Mike M. Said: "Who's sleeping with who,
etc.".)

>>Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.)
>
>Sourcebook -- I don't own it.
>
Good sourcebook if you want to use bugs. Very cool read as far as the
storyline goes... But not necessary unless you want to do Bugs.

>>Awakenings
>
>Nice book if you're into heavy magic. Good fiction, IMO. (Hi Steve!;)
>
I consider this a must have (Gee, considering I don;t own it...:)).
Especially if your players like to buy the books too, cause invariably they
want to use the spells and phys-ad powers out of it...

>>Threats
>
>Don't own..
>
Not necessary, but really goes into a lot of Backgorund higher powered
plots that are occuring in the Shadowrun world. Very nice book for ideas
and a cool read...

>>Portfolio of a Dragon
>
>If you plan on using Dunkies' death in your game, this is a must. Fun book.
>(Hi Steve!)
>
This is also a great book for run ideas, and is also a very cool read.
Between me and Tinner, I think we've run about 6 adventures so far based
around some of the items in D's will.

>>Underworld
>
>If you hit www.rpg.net and goto the reviews section, you'll see a
>favourable review of this from me. (Hi Steve!;)
>
Also a great book... Really explains the Mob, The Yaks, and the Yakuza.
Not necessary, but amazingly cool :]

>>Target: UCAS (Again, Is this a novel?)
>
>Slim sourcebook -- Once again, review at RPG.NET. (Once again, Hi Steve!)
>
Some great info on places around the UCAS. Boston, Detroit, and Chcago are
covered. Good info as a follow up to Bug City with Chicago, and some great
background stuff on Ares and Damion Knight. Not a must, but still a nice
read... Also has rules for playing Ghouls.

((If you haven;t figured it out by now, I really like the background and
story stuff... This is why I didn;t like Corp Shadowfiles... It was more
of a Business 210 book rather than story about the corps))

>>High Tech & Low life
>
>Art book. Nice if you want to spend alot of money on art, but game.useless
>
Agreed.

>>Gamemaster Screen
>
>Make your own, IMO..
>
This is useful,. IMO, for the Contacts book that comes with it. Not a Must
Buy by any sense of the word, but still not bad... Get your players to buy
it and give them some Karma :]

>>Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this true?)
>
>Only if you let your players get away with stupid things.
>
Exactly... Edges and flaws add nice touches to the characters, but too
many of them are simply annoyences or munchkin toys... r egulate strongly,
and don;t let polayers take flaws unless they have a good reason and clear
them through you as GM.

The Shapeshifter rules are pretty lame...

The Contacts info is cool, but a tad complicated...

However, there are some good ideas for playing "Alternative" games with
gangers, Lone Star, or Doc Wagon characters.

Also, the Points System for creation is almost a must. Stay away from
allowing Flaws for additinal build points though... My suggestion is
(After dealing with a large number of Munchkins and Min/Maxing number
crunchers) is that you make the players take an Equal Number of Edges and
flaws, and don;t let them pick their own Flaws. Pick them yourself :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

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Message no. 68 >These are some of the books I don't have.
>
>I was wondering if I could get an overview of what new rules are
>presented in them and what I would use them for IMC. Plus, I was
>wondering If I could
>get a Good-Bad Review for If I should by it.

>
>Corporate Shadowfiles- I hear it's an okay read, but not worth buying.
I've loitered over it- nothing impressive caught my eye.

>Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.) No. It's a great
sourcebook(one some awards at the GenCon it came out at, don'tcha know).
Anything with Dowd's name on it is golden, IMO.

>Awakenings- Intresting book, but unless you can't find the spells it
took off the web, I wouldn't get it right away. Unless you want to
play a Hougoun(VooDoo priest). I would make it a point to get it before
it does go out of print, however.

>Threats- Good read, eps if you are a GM. But no "valuable" info.

>Portfolio of a Dragon- Same as Threats, but a better read. :)

>Underworld- Excellent book for inside info on the Mafia and other crime
syndicates

>Target: UCAS (Again, Is this a novel?)- Again, no. A good follow up to
"Bug City" and "Neo-Anarchists' Guide to North America"

>High Tech & Low life- "The Art of Shadowrun" Not only a waste of
money, but a waste of the paper it was printed on. I thought it would
be a buch of unpublished art, but the cheap bastard that put it together
just mostly rehashed old sourcebook covers. Definitly not missing
anything here.

>Gamemaster Screen- Self explainatory: Do you need one?

>Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this
true?)- It can be, but so can the the BBB. Like Awakenings, you can
hold off if you need to, but get it before it goes out of print. Esp if
you are a GM, don't want your characters having more info than you now,
do we? :)

>Also, given you know my entire library of SR products I was wondering
if
>there are any OOP (or IP) Books (not novels, mind you) that I should
start
>looking for (though I doubt I will ever find them.)

The critter books are nice, but you don't need them. If you want
other place books, or any of the NAG books, then I recommend them. Try
the newsgroups to find used copies pretty cheap:
rec.games.frp.marketplace
And don't dismiss the novels so quickly, many are quite good.

>

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp

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Message no. 69 William Gallas wrote:
>
<snip>
> >
>
> >Shadowrun Companion (I've heard this is a munchkin magnet. Is this true?)
>
> Not really. There are good things and bad things. The new creation system
> is fine. Rules about contacts are also good IMO. Rules about lycanthropes
> stinks IMO. For edges and flaws, the idea is good but it gives munchkins
> new possibilities. IMO, you only need to keep careful about this, otherwise
> it gives some new talents to the characters.
>
> >Also, this might help you decide if I should by the book. The books I have
> >are:

I don't agree with the statement about edges and flaws, they are a
wonderful idea and if don't want to
use one just don't allow that praticular edge and make up a new edge or
increase the cost of the edge.
IIRC it is highly recomended to have a zero sum for edges and flaws and
make the most of the flaws they
take. The new character generation system is very nice and makes more
detailed characters IMO, I agree with
the above above about lycanthropes but overall would say it's a good
book to have.

> >Seattle
> >FoF
> >SR2
> >VR2
> >R2
> >CyberTech
> >ShadowTech
> >Grimiore 2 (Listed on the FASA site as 15th ED)
> >SSC 2
> >*NERPS: All
> >*The Collected NAGEE
> >*TSS
> >
> >*These aren't FASA products, in case you are a clueless newbie.
>
> You have enough books to GM SR. Other sourcebooks would give some plus but
> aren't nessecary.
>
> >Also, given you know my entire library of SR products I was wondering if
> >there are any OOP (or IP) Books (not novels, mind you) that I should start
> >looking for (though I doubt I will ever find them.)
>
> Novels could prove useful because some of them provide some background to SR.
> If you want me to give you a sourcebook or a novel to buy, you need to tell
> what sort of game you GM or what you plan to GM.

I agree with the statement about the novels they fill in holes in the
background so to speak...

--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.

Message no. 70 Bull writes:
>>>Corporate Shadowfiles
>>
>>If you like heavy corps, go for it. Mainly background info.
>>
>Very much Backround info. Outside of the last dozen pages or so, I
>personally found the book useless. And even the last dozen pages were
>annoying...
>
>"Let's see... Aztec produces Agriculture 6. What the hell does that
mean??"
>

It just means that Aztechnology has a moderately large (for a megacorp)
interest in agricultural products (probably based in Aztlan). Which in turn
means that they produce the stuffers that you buy at "Mexico Bill's Flaming
Burrito's!". Which in turn means that if you get asked to do a run to
"interfere" with the food quality at "Mexico Bill's Flaming
Burrito's!",
you're likely to be going up against the big A.

>I'd be much more interested in seeing lists of products rather than generic
>numbers...

It's meant to be for flavour. For example, Renraku have high computer stats,
so runs against Renraku could well be targetted against high-tech
installations. But (for example... no books at work) they might be low in
aerospace, so you probably WON'T be asked to do a run to get hold of the
plans of the latest 'Raku fighter jet.

Actually, I found the focus on security more useful.

>However... If you ever want to allow the players to get involved with the
>corps on a financial or political level though, this would be a pretty good
>book...

The tracking system presented is pretty handy, too, for long campaigns. Not
so much with the AAA-corps, but I once ran a campaign based around two
third-teir corps (not quite megacorps) that were bucking for
extraterritoriality, and the tracking system would have been great for that.

>There are plans for a new Corp Book later this year, and this should be
>much better for a "Street Level" game, according to the PR at Gen Con.
>Should be much more in depth on what the corps actually do, and the
>relationships between corps (As Mike M. Said: "Who's sleeping with who,
>etc.".)

And will present the tracking system from "Mob War" in greater depth...
should be great.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons.

Message no. 71 Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. said on 8:23/29 Jan 98...

> > If you look at the cover, you'll notice it says that on there too. It's
> > because the book sort of pretends to be a 2053 book (the first edition
> > Grimoire claimed to be 14th edition, 2050).
>
> Yeah, I noticed that when I got the book, it just sort of surpised be taht
> fasa listed it like that on the product list.

Maybe they see it as the full title of the book?

> Nice plug. Where can I get these books? I'm in a small town so, I was
> wondering if anyone know a place that I can order remotely (via
> phone/fax/mail/etc.) and that delivers. they are all (I think) OOP can so I
> figure are hard to get, if you find any of them e-mail me. I'll probably buy
> them off of ya.

The NAGRL is still in print, I think (the place where I usually order my
RPG books still has it in its price list), but the others are OOP :(

I have no idea where to order books in the US, though I do know that at
many game cons, there are stands with second-hand books. They're always
worth checking out, if only because they tend to sell books at lower
prices than regular stores.

> ('cept for spraw sites, I got that nerps program that makes blocks for
> ya and I can match my own buildings to the descriptions... sometimes
> it's actually useful.)

The one that comes as a zip-mounted gift with NERPS: Underworld? ;) It's
written mostly on the assumption that you own Sprawl Sites, but it can be
used without quite easily, I guess.

--
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... should turn out the lights before they undress.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 72 I'll Only comment on the ones I own.

> Bug City (Is this a novel? I don't buy novels.)
No,its a source book on chicago after the bugs took over.

> Awakenings
Very Good.You Must buy it.:^)

--
new school/Old school magic: Powerbolt and an air elemental. New school
magic: Take a right at the Metaplane of Infinite Stromboli, past the
Metaplane of Helga, to the Big Flashing Neon Pandas. Tell the watcher
"Mel" sent you.

Message no. 73 -----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>

Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. said on 8:23/29 Jan 98...

The NAGRL is still in print, I think (the place where I usually order my
RPG books still has it in its price list), but the others are OOP :(

FASA Lists NAGRL as OOP but, If it is still IP where you live (Netherlands?)
buy it and I'll buy it from you. I want that book.

Message no. 74 Kind of wondering if there is some kind of order behind the numbers of
the Shadowrun books (not the novels).

SR3 is 7001.

Most of the miscellaneous sourcebooks fall under 71xx.

Locations fall under 72xx. Except for Queen Euphoria, a module. Bug
City might be considered both a location and misc, so it could be
either. Also, Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life, probably should be
under 71xx.

Modules are 73xx, again except for Queen Euphoria above, and possibly
some others that I don't have.

Base 2nd edition books are 79xx.

I don't know if this is a question per se, or just a comment.

If anybody has any more information to share to enlighten me, please,
feel free.

--
--lsd

Message no. 75 In a message dated 1/1/1999 4:14:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
riffraff@********.RR.COM writes:

> Kind of wondering if there is some kind of order behind the numbers of
> the Shadowrun books (not the novels).
>
> SR3 is 7001.
>
> Most of the miscellaneous sourcebooks fall under 71xx.
>
> Locations fall under 72xx. Except for Queen Euphoria, a module. Bug
> City might be considered both a location and misc, so it could be
> either. Also, Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life, probably should be
> under 71xx.
>
> Modules are 73xx, again except for Queen Euphoria above, and possibly
> some others that I don't have.
>
> Base 2nd edition books are 79xx.
>
> I don't know if this is a question per se, or just a comment.
>
> If anybody has any more information to share to enlighten me, please,
> feel free.

Personally I don't think there is a pattern to the book numbering, although I
think someone with a ouija (did I spell it right?!?) would have a better
chance at predicting or determining the numbering of the books in the way they
were.

-Herc

Message no. 76 According to Lance Dillon, at 21:15 on 1 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Kind of wondering if there is some kind of order behind the numbers of
> the Shadowrun books (not the novels).
>
> SR3 is 7001.
>
> Most of the miscellaneous sourcebooks fall under 71xx.

And first edition main rulebooks -- SR1, VR 1.0, and Grimoire 1 are all
7100-series.

> Locations fall under 72xx. Except for Queen Euphoria, a module.

My copy says, on an orange sticker, "Corrected Stock # 7304". Its original
number, 7205, is taken up by The Universal Brotherhood, which also isn't a
location sourcebook.

> Bug City might be considered both a location and misc, so it could be
> either. Also, Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life, probably should be
> under 71xx.

Yep, those things I noticed too.

> Modules are 73xx, again except for Queen Euphoria above, and possibly
> some others that I don't have.

Nearly all adventures are the 7300-series, including QE (at least, mine
is) except the one in The Universal Brotherhood and those in location
books (i.e. NAN 1 & 2).

> Base 2nd edition books are 79xx.

Yes.

--
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The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 77 Well, due to some of the msg's on this list, It seems to me that both
Tir Na Nog and Dunkelzahn's Secrets are kinda hard to get ahold of for
some of you. I found ONE COPY of each in my local book store, and if you
wanna em, it'll be about $22 US. This includes shipping. Send me some
personal mail to lemme know if you're interested. first person to send
me mail gets the book/s.

Demonnic
Non Illegitimi Carborundum Est

Message no. 78 Has Dunklezahn's Secrets: Portfolio of a Dragon gone out of print?
FASA's site says nothing about it, but then again we all know they don't
update all that often.

Demonnic Bloodbather wrote:
>
> Well, due to some of the msg's on this list, It seems to me that both
> Tir Na Nog and Dunkelzahn's Secrets are kinda hard to get ahold of for
> some of you. I found ONE COPY of each in my local book store, and if you
> wanna em, it'll be about $22 US. This includes shipping. Send me some
> personal mail to lemme know if you're interested. first person to send
> me mail gets the book/s.
>
> Demonnic
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum Est

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia

Message no. 79 I don't know myself, I'm onlu judging from some of the things I've seen posted
on the list. I could be wrong about the Dunkelzahn's Secrets, but I've already
got someone who wants the Tir na nOg Book. And I might just get D.S. for
myself if no one else wants it.

grahamdrew wrote:

> Has Dunklezahn's Secrets: Portfolio of a Dragon gone out of print?
> FASA's site says nothing about it, but then again we all know they don't
> update all that often.
>
> Demonnic Bloodbather wrote:
> >
> > Well, due to some of the msg's on this list, It seems to me that both
> > Tir Na Nog and Dunkelzahn's Secrets are kinda hard to get ahold of for
> > some of you. I found ONE COPY of each in my local book store, and if you
> > wanna em, it'll be about $22 US. This includes shipping. Send me some
> > personal mail to lemme know if you're interested. first person to send
> > me mail gets the book/s.
> >
> > Demonnic
> > Non Illegitimi Carborundum Est
>
> --
> If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
> redesigned to do many things badly.
> -Paranoia

--
Demonnic
'Non Illegitimi Carborundum Est'
Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Message no. 80 > > > Note that I live in NZ and so it was hard enough when FASA made them
>
>Oh? Whereabouts in New Zealand do you live?
>
I live in Dunedin where I go to university
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Message no. 81 > >Oh? Whereabouts in New Zealand do you live?
> I live in Dunedin where I go to university

Checkout www.comics.co.nz and get in touch with Gotham Comics. They're
probably the best with getting stuff into New Zealand. Also,
www.heroes4sale.co.nz could be handy. I know the store in Palmerston North
has a lot, and I mean lots, of new RPG products, inlcuding SR, WOD, etc.

Shane

Message no. 82 --0-1918061720-1004055444=:44806
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

hey does any body know when target awakend lands is comeing out? Im going crazy trying to
get it. some one please tell me. mabe talon could tell us hes one of the writers.

---------------------------------
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
--0-1918061720-1004055444=:44806
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

hey does any body know when target awakend lands is comeing out?  Im going crazy
trying to get it.  some one please tell me.  mabe talon could tell us
hes one of the writers. <hr size=1>Do You
Yahoo!? 
Make a great connection at <a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mktg/mail/txt/tagline/?http://personals.yahoo.com";
target="_blank">Yahoo! Personals</a>.
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Message no. 83 According to corey mitchell, on Fri, 26 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> hey does any body know when target awakend lands is comeing out? Im
> going crazy trying to get it. some one please tell me. mabe talon could
> tell us hes one of the writers.

I'm not Steve Kenson and also not one of the writers of this book, but IIRC
it's at the printers about now (at least, my none-too-perfect memory leads me
to believe T:AL is the book Rob Boyle said was at the printers last week when
I talked to him in Essen).

--
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"Those Who Do Do Not Know the Past are Doomed to Reboot it"
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-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 84 So, on a different subject, what are your favorite shadowrun books? I
just got through reading 2XS, Burning Bright, and House of the Sun, and
I'm currently reading Black Madonna (again). The books with the insect
spirits are my favorite, usually....

Message no. 85 According to lance dillon, on 16-12-05 14:01 the word on the street was...

> So, on a different subject, what are your favorite shadowrun books? I
> just got through reading 2XS, Burning Bright, and House of the Sun, and
> I'm currently reading Black Madonna (again). The books with the insect
> spirits are my favorite, usually....

I re-read 2XS about month ago, and must say it held up to my memories of
it fairly well, but it did make me laugh once or twice with how reality
has caught up with it. Such as Dirk's comment of how he tried a mobile
phone at one time but didn't like it so he got rid of it again, as if
hardly anybody would use a mobile phone in SR :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Please do not read the lyrics whilst listening to the recordings.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 86 On Fri, 2005-12-16 at 14:07 +0100, Gurth wrote:

> I re-read 2XS about month ago, and must say it held up to my memories of
> it fairly well, but it did make me laugh once or twice with how reality
> has caught up with it. Such as Dirk's comment of how he tried a mobile
> phone at one time but didn't like it so he got rid of it again, as if
> hardly anybody would use a mobile phone in SR :)
>

Well, with that, I had the same kind of thing with House of the Sun.
Dirk scanned a file that got identified as 70-bit pki encryption, and
that nobody with an real security concerns would consider anything less
than 85-bit. I was laughing at that as well, since people have 1k or
2k-bit keys these days, about 50 years before the time of the book...

Message no. 87 According to lance dillon, on 16-12-05 14:10 the word on the street was...

> Well, with that, I had the same kind of thing with House of the Sun.
> Dirk scanned a file that got identified as 70-bit pki encryption, and
> that nobody with an real security concerns would consider anything less
> than 85-bit. I was laughing at that as well, since people have 1k or
> 2k-bit keys these days, about 50 years before the time of the book...

The best thing to do is try and put those kinds of things out of your
mind, and read the novel as if it were still the time it was written in :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Please do not read the lyrics whilst listening to the recordings.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 88 On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 07:01:33AM -0600, lance dillon wrote:
> So, on a different subject, what are your favorite shadowrun books?

2XS is my favorite as far as world feel.

Changeling isn't a great SR book (but not bad), but it is one of my
favorite science fiction books ever.

Burning Bright was pretty decent. I still enjoy the original trilogy
by Charrotte (sp?).

Lone Wolf, Night's Pawn, and Shadowplay were all good reads, as I
recall. Kenson has very good atmosphere. I like Koke's starts, but not
his continued stories, so I'd stay away from his trilogy, but he had at
least one stand alone book too. Findley's stuff isn't all great, but I
enjoyed every one of them, so that makes them good enough in my book :)

Avoid Mel Odom, avoid Fade to Black. Who was the guy that filled in for
a bit between Dowd and Mulvihill? He co-wrote a book or two that were
pretty bad, if I recall correctly. Stackpole (Wolf and Raven) is old
school pulpy stuff, but fun if you like that. There was a particularly
atrocious one that had a gun that went from hand to hand and somehow
fired faster/more accurately because of it, but the story is so hideous
I blotted it from my mind. It's in my reviews somewhere if you're
morbidly curious.

Oh yeah, Black Madonna. Ick.

All opinions in here are of course subjective. If any authors that I
dissed on are the list, well, sorry, but at least you know I bought
every book regardless.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org

Message no. 89 According to Brett Sanger, on 16-12-05 19:23 the word on the street was...

> I still enjoy the original trilogy by Charrotte (sp?).

Charrette. I still only have part 3, and have been wanting to get parts
1 and 2 for several years :/

> Avoid Mel Odom

Yep. I can't say I liked the stories much, and it's too obvious from the
events in his novels that he didn't play enough SR before writing them.

> Who was the guy that filled in for a bit between Dowd and Mulvihill?

Carl Sargent, one half of what Doc' (I think) used to refer to as "the
wonder twins".

> Oh yeah, Black Madonna. Ick.

That's by Sargent.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Please do not read the lyrics whilst listening to the recordings.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 90 From: "Brett Sanger" <swiftone@********.org>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 07:01:33AM -0600, lance dillon wrote:
>> So, on a different subject, what are your favorite shadowrun books?
>
> 2XS is my favorite as far as world feel.

I always liked it aswell.

> Stackpole (Wolf and Raven) is old
> school pulpy stuff, but fun if you like that.

Stackpoles book is a collection of short stories, with the same major
actors. The stories was written before SR was published, so he is taking
quite a few liberties. Most of the stories was published i Challenge
Magazine.

Lars

Message no. 91 From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>
>> Who was the guy that filled in for a bit between Dowd and Mulvihill?
>
> Carl Sargent, one half of what Doc' (I think) used to refer to as "the
> wonder twins".

of which the other part is Mark Gascoigne.

Lars

Message no. 92 > There was a particularly atrocious one that had a gun that went >
from hand to hand and somehow fired faster/more accurately >
because of it, but the story is so hideous I blotted it from my >
mind. It's in my reviews somewhere if you're morbidly curious.

Shadowboxer.

And yes, blech.

I think 2XS is probably the best SR novel written. Night's Pawn is
not bad. Never Trust An Elf is pretty good too, continuing with many
characters from Charette's Secrets of Power trilogy (Neko and Kham
mostly). Lone Wolf is good, but stay far away from any other books
in which Argent figures, as they get hokey in a hurry. For all that
Stackpole did not really know his SR, Wolf and Raven is a really fun
read. The soliloquy and naration by the main character (Wolf) is
fantastic. Striper is alright, while Fade To Black is a good one to
read before killing off 95% of your PCs. Who Hunts the Hunter is
really good, but suffers from a "not quite Shadowrun" feel. There
are even hints of Lovecraft lurking in this one. Just Compensation
was interesting, and provides a somewhat different look at the
socio-political dynamics in SR. The new novels are mostly terrible
in my opinion. The Forever Drug is a confusing juxtaposition of
three different stories. Psychtrope is somebody's answer to that
fact that hacking was just too realistic in Johnny Mnemonic. The
Dragon Heart trilogy toyed with power levels that were just
ridiculous. Kenson is good, but makes magic so much cooler than
tech, which gets old for me. I could babble on, but I lost track of
where I was going with this. Oh yea... 2XS: Excellent... Terminus
Experiment: wtf were they smoking? Everything falls in between, I
think.

======Korishinzo
--bought them all, read them all, really only regretted a few

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Message no. 93 ----- Original Message -----
From: "lance dillon" <ldillon@*******.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 5:01 AM
Subject: books

> So, on a different subject, what are your favorite shadowrun books? I
> just got through reading 2XS, Burning Bright, and House of the Sun, and
> I'm currently reading Black Madonna (again). The books with the insect
> spirits are my favorite, usually....
>
I think one of the best is tails You Lose.
--Anders

Message no. 94 Weird. I remember thinking that 2XS was one of the lamer ones, the
one that put me off reading more. Then again, I liked Changeling, so
what do I know.

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