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Message no. 1
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:45:14 -0700 (PDT)
Check out the subject, maaaan...

Yeah, maaaan...

> > Only one thing to say on this subject. Martin
deVries was in The Terminus Experiment, not The
Forever Drug. Well, I can't DEFINITIVELY say the
latter, as I'm still reading it, but I'm up to page
170-odd and it doesn't look likely that he or the Ordo
Maximus are going to make an appearance in that last
100 pages. :)
> > He was, however, most definitely in The Terminus
Experiment.
> >
> > Interesting book. Didn't like how it ended. But
I'm a soppy romantic at heart.
>
> Doc', you are of course correct. That's what I get
for reading 4 of the books I was behind on all inside
of a couple days....
> -K

Happens to the best of us, K.

Speaking of which, though, I finished The Forever Drug
yesterday night. And K, now I know what you were
talking about. What a DODGY premise! I do hope FASA
leaves this alone from now on (as opposed to making it
a Dragon Heart or Burning Bright-type thing). The
concepts introduced can only detract from the game
IMO. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'd say
read the book - but only if you don't have to pay for
it. Or just don't bother. It ain't worth it.

Honestly, I liked the first book of Lisa Smedman's
that I read (Blood Sports). Then I read The Lucifer
Deck and I thought it was a bit dodgy. Then
Psychotrope - which pretty much sucked. Now this.
Jeez. She's starting to turn into the next Nyx Smith.

Speaking of which, upon finishing The Forever Drug, I
started reading Steel Rain...with some trepidation.
First page. It's in present tense.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry. Just had to get that out of my system. That
would be the form of writing I hate most in the world.
I barely survived Nigel Findley using it in Lone Wolf,
and only then because Findley was such a good writer.
And IIRC, that's the tense that Nyx used in his
Striper short story in Into the Shadows (the only
other one of his stories I've read). Please - someone
tell me he hasn't used that tense for ALL of his
stories.

It only got worse from there. Normally I read at a
rate of 1 page per minute (approx.). My fastest time
would probably have been when I read Seeress of Kell
(David Eddings) the first time - 444 pages in 3 hours.
But this? It took me 30 minutes to read the first 8
pages. I haven't read this slow since I had to read
Jane Eyre in high school. Mind numbing.

Then we have the adept arrow-cutting (missile-parrying
for those who aren't interested in ninja-crud :) )
bullets and the elves with infravision.

Lordy. Someone PLEASE tell me it's going to get
better. PLEEEEEEEEEEEZE...

*Doc' cowers in fear, hiding from the books he's
coming to hate, but knows he must acquire in order to
complete his SR collection...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 2
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:20:33 -0700 (PDT)
> ] *Doc' cowers in fear, hiding from the books he's
> ] coming to hate, but knows he must acquire in order
> to
> ] complete his SR collection...*
>
> Gee, Doc'. I hate to present the obvious
solution, but why don't you only buy the products you
like?
>
> -Boondocker
>
> P.S. If you say "Because then I'll be missing canon
material that might be referenced in a vague but
infuriating way in later products," then I'll sigh,
and bow to your argument.

No. Because I'm a magpie.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 3
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:41:43 -0700 (PDT)
> ] > Gee, Doc'. I hate to present the obvious
> ] solution, but why don't you only buy the products
> you
> ] like?
> ] >
> ] > -Boondocker
> ] >
> ] > P.S. If you say "Because then I'll be missing
> canon
> ] material that might be referenced in a vague but
> ] infuriating way in later products," then I'll
> sigh,
> ] and bow to your argument.
> ]
> ] No. Because I'm a magpie.
>
> Oh. Well, good then. I'd hate to think you too
> were a slave to
> FASA's marketing, and a completionist to boot.
>
> You're a magpie. Good.
>
> -Boondocker

*Doc' looks at Boondocker strangely. "Uh...yeah, all right."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 4
From: Anders Swenson anders@**********.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:52:10 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>

...

> Speaking of which, though, I finished The Forever Drug
> yesterday night. And K, now I know what you were
> talking about. What a DODGY premise! I do hope FASA
> leaves this alone from now on (as opposed to making it
> a Dragon Heart or Burning Bright-type thing). The
> concepts introduced can only detract from the game
> IMO. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'd say
> read the book - but only if you don't have to pay for
> it. Or just don't bother. It ain't worth it.

Something isn't transmitting fro Oz to California, Sig, I actually liked
parts of Forever Drug, and I would like to know what you really were
bothered by that hasn't been done before (like elf-dragon-Lofwyr politics).
Elucidate? --Anders
Message no. 5
From: Jett zmjett@*********.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:15:39 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

>
> Speaking of which, though, I finished The Forever Drug
> yesterday night. And K, now I know what you were
> talking about. What a DODGY premise! I do hope FASA
> leaves this alone from now on (as opposed to making it
> a Dragon Heart or Burning Bright-type thing). The
> concepts introduced can only detract from the game
> IMO. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'd say
> read the book - but only if you don't have to pay for
> it. Or just don't bother. It ain't worth it.
>

That was a shame. The basic premise of the book was good...I really liked Romulus as a
character, but by the end, I was using a freight crane to suspend my disbelief. The story
described on the back of the book pretty much ended in the middle of the book, and
something totally dodgy, as K and Rand put it, took its place...



>
> Honestly, I liked the first book of Lisa Smedman's
> that I read (Blood Sports). Then I read The Lucifer
> Deck and I thought it was a bit dodgy. Then
> Psychotrope - which pretty much sucked. Now this.
> Jeez. She's starting to turn into the next Nyx Smith.

Nah. Unlike Nyx, Lisa actually has some talent. :> I really liked the Lucifer Deck,
TBH,
because of the view it gave of street life for Pita. The ending, however, seemed rushed to
me, or poorly thought out as the ending to the Forever Drug was. Although I haven't picked
up Psychotrope yet. But then again, YMMV. Remember, I'm a freak. I actually LIKED
Shadowboxer...

>
> Speaking of which, upon finishing The Forever Drug, I
> started reading Steel Rain...with some trepidation.
> First page. It's in present tense.
>
> Sorry. Just had to get that out of my system. That
> would be the form of writing I hate most in the world.
> I barely survived Nigel Findley using it in Lone Wolf,
> and only then because Findley was such a good writer.
> And IIRC, that's the tense that Nyx used in his
> Striper short story in Into the Shadows (the only
> other one of his stories I've read). Please - someone
> tell me he hasn't used that tense for ALL of his
> stories.

He's used that tense for ALL his stories. Sorry! I agree, Nigel Findley is the only person
I've been able to read present-tense narrative with.


--Jett
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

The new improved Shadowrun page: Shadow's Edge.
http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow/

Jett's Elfwood page
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/zone47/artists/jesgrota/jesgrota.html


"This is the worst place in the world. You shouldn't have come here. You'll die
here."
"Stay in the best place in the world, darling, and you'll die there, too."
-Lord Fanny, to Quimper, The Invisibles
Message no. 6
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:30:00 -0400
On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 00:54:42 -0300 Scott W <iscottw@*****.nb.ca> writes:
> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
> ] *Doc' cowers in fear, hiding from the books he's
> ] coming to hate, but knows he must acquire in order to
> ] complete his SR collection...*
>
> Gee, Doc'. I hate to present the obvious solution, but why don't
> you
> only buy the products you like?
>
> -Boondocker
>
> P.S. If you say "Because then I'll be missing canon material that
> might be referenced in a vague but infuriating way in later
> products,"
> then I'll sigh, and bow to your argument.
>
how about "if I didn't buy it, I wouldn't have everything"

Of course, I didn't think Forever Drug was that bad, though it had its
problems. Nowhere NEAR Nyx Smith <shudder>.
All her other books, I liked, though every novel has small problems.
(Bloodsports "if I only knew then" at the end of every chapter :-)

But, I'll survive.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 7
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:48:59 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> Of course, I didn't think Forever Drug was that bad,
though it had its problems.

What? Leaving aside the basic premise (but really,
immortal elves are bad enough!), just to snag an
instance of sheer crappiness out of thin air, what
about that...that...jewel?

I'd say something about it, but...I forget...

;-)

> Nowhere NEAR Nyx Smith <shudder>. All her other
books, I liked, though every novel has small problems.
(Bloodsports "if I only knew then" at the end of every
chapter :-)
> But, I'll survive.
> Vocenoctum

In all probability...

*"Shapeshifters bite, man!"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 8
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:56:51 -0700 (PDT)
> > Speaking of which, though, I finished The Forever
Drug yesterday night. And K, now I know what you were
talking about. What a DODGY premise! I do hope FASA
leaves this alone from now on (as opposed to making it
a Dragon Heart or Burning Bright-type thing). The
concepts introduced can only detract from the game
IMO. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'd say
read the book - but only if you don't have to pay for
it. Or just don't bother. It ain't worth it.
>
> That was a shame. The basic premise of the book was
good...I really liked Romulus as a character, but by
the end, I was using a freight crane to suspend my
disbelief. The story described on the back of the book
pretty much ended in the middle of the book, and
something totally dodgy, as K and Rand put it, took
its place...

Yeah. At first it wasn't half bad (or all bad even :)
). And when things started diverging from the jacket
blurb, it happened in a logical fashion at first. Then
it just started going overboard. Yeesh. The "main"
plotline was wrapped more or less as an aside in the
last chapter. Not a good thing.

> > Honestly, I liked the first book of Lisa Smedman's
that I read (Blood Sports). Then I read The Lucifer
Deck and I thought it was a bit dodgy. Then
Psychotrope - which pretty much sucked. Now this.
Jeez. She's starting to turn into the next Nyx Smith.
>
> Nah. Unlike Nyx, Lisa actually has some talent. :>

I concur. But talent can't make up for crappy plots.

> I really liked the Lucifer Deck, TBH, because of the
view it gave of street life for Pita.

All right. APART from that it was dodgy. :)

> The ending, however, seemed rushed to me, or poorly
thought out as the ending to the Forever Drug was.

Exactly.

> Although I haven't picked up Psychotrope yet.

Sucky. Take my word for it. Decent decker perspective
(as with The Lucifer Deck), sucky plot, sucky
characters.

> But then again, YMMV. Remember, I'm a freak. I
actually LIKED Shadowboxer...

Yup, yer a freak all right. :)

> > Speaking of which, upon finishing The Forever
Drug, I started reading Steel Rain...with some
trepidation. First page. It's in present tense.
> >
> > Sorry. Just had to get that out of my system. That
would be the form of writing I hate most in the world.
I barely survived Nigel Findley using it in Lone Wolf,
and only then because Findley was such a good writer.
And IIRC, that's the tense that Nyx used in his
Striper short story in Into the Shadows (the only
other one of his stories I've read). Please - someone
tell me he hasn't used that tense for ALL of his
stories.
>
> He's used that tense for ALL his stories. Sorry!

*sob!!!*

> I agree, Nigel Findley is the only person I've been
able to read present-tense narrative with.
> --Jett

It's just an ugly style of writing, IMNSHO. And it
gives a feeling of...being unrealistic (I didn't want
to say surrealism, as that can be good at times).

Ack. Still gotta get three more of Smith's books.
*sigh*

*Doc' considers waiting until he hates himself
sufficiently to read the books. That way he'll have an
excuse for punishing himself...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
> > Speaking of which, though, I finished The Forever
> Drug
> > yesterday night. And K, now I know what you were
> > talking about. What a DODGY premise! I do hope
> FASA
> > leaves this alone from now on (as opposed to
> making it
> > a Dragon Heart or Burning Bright-type thing). The
> > concepts introduced can only detract from the game
> > IMO. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'd
> say
> > read the book - but only if you don't have to pay
> for
> > it. Or just don't bother. It ain't worth it.

F
O
R
E
V
E
R

D
R
U
G

S
U
X

H
A
R
D

R
O
C
K
S
!

> Something isn't transmitting fro Oz to California,
Sig, I actually liked parts of Forever Drug, and I
would like to know what you really were bothered by
that hasn't been done before (like elf-dragon-Lofwyr
politics). Elucidate? --Anders

It's Doc'. But anyway...:)

Well, I didn't mind the politics. It happens. The MAIN
problem I had was with the forever drug itself. Using
dragon blood to activate the stopwatch complex in
everyone (the "all children born after Oct 2061" bit).
CRAP!!!

Even if it wasn't such a stupid idea to begin with,
there's no WAY a dragon of Dunkelzahn's intelligence
would go in for that. There's a reason people grow old
and die. Leaving out anything religious, if we DIDN'T,
the world wouldn't be able to support our population.
We're already pushing it as it is, and despite VITAS,
it wouldn't take long at all for the world's
population to push past where we're at now. Anyone
with half a brain would realise it's a bad idea.

So then you have the reverse option - Dunkelzahn did
it to SHORTEN the lives of people, as Lofwyr implied.
Actually, he didn't directly imply that, but he did
imply that Dunkelzahn had an ulterior motive which
wasn't a good one for the general population. Which
just kinda ticks me off, as I'm a big Dunkelzahn fan.
*shrug*

Anyway, then you have, as Jett mentioned, the way the
book really had very little to do with the blurb and
that it didn't get there in a particularly logical
fashion.

What about the Jewel of Memory? The whole concept is,
to say the least, stupid. And the fact that Romulus
could track Jane's memories by scent (astral scent,
perhaps, but still)?

Eeeuurrrgh. Get it away from me.

Sorry, Anders, but this one just leaps out at me as a
crap book. It's not something I can totally quantify,
but look at it. Then look at 2XS, or House of the Sun,
or Wolf and Raven, or (my personal favourite)
Shadowplay. I'm afraid it's just not in the same
class.

K, you sounded like you were annoyed by the book. What
about it didn't you like?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 10
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: BoneDisposal)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:08:34 -0400
> > Something isn't transmitting fro Oz to California, Sig, I actually
liked
> > parts of Forever Drug, and I would like to know what you really were
> > bothered by that hasn't been done before (like elf-dragon-Lofwyr
politics).
> > Elucidate? --Anders
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> S
> I
> N
> C
> E
>
> S
> O
> M
> E
>
> O
> N
> E
>
> M
> A
> Y
>
> C
> A
> R
> E
>
> <snip unrealistic treatment of wolves>
>
> That doesn't even count the ending with its' oh-so-nifty brush off of the
> woman who is wisked away by "Big Bad Lofwyr". Its' another of those
> "Immortal Elves and Great Dragons" endings that I have come to really
> dislike. Don't get me wrong, I do like the concept themselves, but the
> implementation that oh so many of the authors out there have taken with
> regards to such beings makes me sick. I'm actually *very* happy that
Steve
> K. has yet to touch on this area until his next book (Ragnarok IIRC). I'm
> really hoping he does it a bit better (I'm secretly hoping Lofwyr gets
*HIS*
> now) than previous writers have.
>
> Lets' see, what else? Oh I know, the "wiping out of the memory" at the
end
> of the book. That is something that is a *VERY* personal distaste of
mine.
> From a game mechanics POV, this is a "Karma Theft" on the part of the GM.
> Without the memories/experiences to understand, there is no development on
> the part of the character.

Both of these classify nicely as "deus ex machina," which no writer should
use anymore. And no _good_ writer does.
Message no. 11
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:14:22 -0400
>
> F
> O
> R
> E
> V
> E
> R
>
> D
> R
> U
> G
>
> S
> U
> X
>
> H
> A
> R
> D
>
> R
> O
> C
> K
> S
> !
>
> > Something isn't transmitting fro Oz to California,
> Sig, I actually liked parts of Forever Drug, and I
> would like to know what you really were bothered by
> that hasn't been done before (like elf-dragon-Lofwyr
> politics). Elucidate? --Anders
>
> It's Doc'. But anyway...:)
>
> Well, I didn't mind the politics. It happens. The MAIN
> problem I had was with the forever drug itself. Using
> dragon blood to activate the stopwatch complex in
> everyone (the "all children born after Oct 2061" bit).
> CRAP!!!
>
> <snip>

Remembering, of course, that breeding with dragons is what gave the elves
their first immortality. And that the effect of that was so horrific [hello,
Alamaise, I thought you'd gone] that dragons were forever forbidden to do it
again. That's why the Outcast was, well, cast out. That idea that another
dragon would do this again, much less someone as respectful of tradition as
Dunkelzahn, is rediculous. I've yet to read this one--it looked awful--but I
think I'll read it, just to make certain how much the author screwed up the
canon.
Message no. 12
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:38:23 -0400
> > > F
> > > O
> > > R
> > > E
> > > V
> > > E
> > > R
> > >
> > > D
> > > R
> > > U
> > > G
> > >
> > > S
> > > U
> > > X
> > >
> > > H
> > > A
> > > R
> > > D
> > >
> > > R
> > > O
> > > C
> > > K
> > > S
> > > !
> > >
> > > > Something isn't transmitting fro Oz to California,
> > > Sig, I actually liked parts of Forever Drug, and I
> > > would like to know what you really were bothered by
> > > that hasn't been done before (like elf-dragon-Lofwyr
> > > politics). Elucidate? --Anders
> > >
> > > It's Doc'. But anyway...:)
> > >
> > > Well, I didn't mind the politics. It happens. The MAIN
> > > problem I had was with the forever drug itself. Using
> > > dragon blood to activate the stopwatch complex in
> > > everyone (the "all children born after Oct 2061" bit).
> > > CRAP!!!
> > >
> > > <snip>
> >
> >Remembering, of course, that breeding with dragons is what gave the elves
> >their first immortality. And that the effect of that was so horrific
[hello,
> >Alamaise, I thought you'd gone] that dragons were forever forbidden to do
it
> >again. That's why the Outcast was, well, cast out. That idea that another
> >dragon would do this again, much less someone as respectful of tradition
as
> >Dunkelzahn, is rediculous. I've yet to read this one--it looked
awful--but I
> >think I'll read it, just to make certain how much the author screwed up
the
> >canon.
>
> I would call D anything but respectful of tradition. He was warned several
> times but the IEs and the great dragons about his meddling. He actually
> tried to help humanity instead of manipulating them (cough, <Lowfyr>,
> cought). Instead of letting the other dragons fight over his hoard, he
gave
> it away in a human will. He purposefully crafted his will to encourage
> paths that would take away power from both the IEs and the dragons. And in
> his interviews he gave away a whole bunch about the Awakening, pretty much
> explaining the concept in his first one.
>
> If anyone was going to do it again, it fit perfectly into his personality.
>
Yes, he occasionally flew in the face of tradition, but even he felt some
things were too awful to reproduce. Remember, he himself, IIRC, called the
conclave to cast out the Outcast for creating the Deneirastas. At least this
one thing, it seems unlikely he would do; it was anathema to him, and the
greatest threat to peace in two of the three magical worlds.

First, Alamaise makes a breed of the elves in Wyrm Wood immortal, by
breeding with elven women, producing, first Caynreth, and then more. Then
they rose against him, Caynreth herself striking a mortal blow to him.
Hilarity ensues. Many of the problems of the Age of Dragons sprung from
this.

And then the Outcast's creation of the Deneirastas...whew. What a mess.

It just seems like The Big D would have had to have had some *incredibly*
good reason to make the same stupid mistake, thus being cast out from dragon
society himself. Sure, he skirted the edges of treason, but he never, ever,
broke the rules while he lived.
Message no. 13
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:34:08 -0400
> <snip all sorts of stuff>
>
> >Yes, he occasionally flew in the face of tradition, but even he felt some
> >things were too awful to reproduce. Remember, he himself, IIRC, called
the
> >conclave to cast out the Outcast for creating the Deneirastas. At least
this
> >one thing, it seems unlikely he would do; it was anathema to him, and the
> >greatest threat to peace in two of the three magical worlds.
>
> Is this all in Dragons? I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing
yet.
> But I agree with you...so far.

Most, if not all, of this information comes from that source, yes. Which I
recommend highly to any SR or ED player or GM.

> >First, Alamaise makes a breed of the elves in Wyrm Wood immortal, by
> >breeding with elven women, producing, first Caynreth, and then more. Then
> >they rose against him, Caynreth herself striking a mortal blow to him.
> >Hilarity ensues. Many of the problems of the Age of Dragons sprung from
> >this.
>
> Vaguely remember this.
>
> >And then the Outcast's creation of the Deneirastas...whew. What a mess.
>
> Dragons again?

Yes. Oh, and I mispelled Denairastas. Sorry.

> >It just seems like The Big D would have had to have had some *incredibly*
> >good reason to make the same stupid mistake, thus being cast out from
dragon
> >society himself. Sure, he skirted the edges of treason, but he never,
ever,
> >broke the rules while he lived.
>
> He pulled some big ones though. I'd still refer to the will as the biggest
> rule breaker of them all.

I'll buy that.

> The other point I was trying to make was that trying to lengthen
everyone's
> lifespan a bit was different than creating immortals. The blood thing was
> not supposed to make people immortal, just live a bit longer. Right now
> elves (and to a lesser extent the dwarves) have the edge. They live almost
> twice as long as humans, and more than that for trolls and orcs. They can
> afford to take the long view and have more encompassing goals. If humans
et
> all lived that long, the playing field would be more level.
>
> Compare that to making a small group of elves completely immortal,
> something reserved only for dragons and spirits. Yes, in both cases the
> dragon is playing with forces that he shouldn't. But one side is much more
> likely to benefit all humanity than the other. That's why I could easily
> see D doing it. Sure, there is a pretty good argument that it just
> shouldn't be done. However, do you think that he couldn't have justified
it
> to himself, and decided that it was worth the risk?
>
On further reflection--and still without having read the book--I will
concede the possibility, within the framework of the game. Dunkelzahn was
pressed for solutions, somewhat desperate at this point. The situation with
the horrors and the invae was getting out of control, and he needed to play
his hand, and NOW. So I can see him using a derivation of this most heinous
of crimes to try for a quick fix of this problem. This would also somewhat
explain Lofwyr's, um, distress.

I know, I'm over-analysing. But it's my job.
Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:27:26 -0500
Losing the spoiler space, because I don't think I'm talking about THE
FOREVER DRUG anymore, but Big D in general.

> I would call D anything but respectful of tradition. He was warned
> several times but the IEs and the great dragons about his meddling.
> He actually tried to help humanity instead of manipulating them (cough,
> <Lowfyr>, cought). ...
>
> If anyone was going to do it again, it fit perfectly into his personality.

I'll second this motion. If anyone was going to do something to irritate
dragons and the IE population, it was going to be Dunkelzahn.

Well, and there's one in my campaign that would do it, too, but Ilhineth is
a special case....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:19:23 -0700 (PDT)
S
P
W
O
I
L
A

S
P
A
C
E
,

L
I
K
E
,

D
U
D
E
.
.
.

<BigSnip(TM)>
> The other point I was trying to make was that trying
to lengthen everyone's lifespan a bit was different
than creating immortals. The blood thing was not
supposed to make people immortal, just live a bit
longer.
<Snippola(TM)>
> Sommers

Sommers, are you sure about that? I thought from what
was originally said was that the serum was supposed to
activate the "stopwatch complex" - which, yes, means
immortality - that's what made the IEs I, according to
Tir Tairngire and The Forever Drug.

Apart from that, Lofwyr said that Dunkelzahn was
really trying to make a new race of servitors. That's
crud - at least, if Dunkelzahn is anything like how
he's portrayed in the Dragonheart Saga.

Of course, Lofwyr could just have been trying to smear
Dunkelzahn. But even so, unless your interpretation is
correct (can you provide some proof from the book? I
don't have it with me, so I can't check), Dunkelzahn
is still involved in making immortals - which I simply
can't see from a being with his brains.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 16
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT)
> At 08:27 PM 10/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >F
> >O
> >R
> >E
> >V
> >E
> >R
> >
> >D
> >R
> >U
> >G
> >
> >S
> >U
> >X
> >
> >H
> >A
> >R
> >D
> >
> >R
> >O
> >C
> >K
> >S
> >!
> >
> Crap that it would work or crap that he would try
it? I have to finish reading dragons, but isn't that
how some of those elves got so long lived?

Can't comment on that, actually. Haven't read the
book. Although I meant crap that it would work, so it
could be wrong. But from what people are saying, it
sounds like Alamaise BRED with an elf to create
immortal elves from her CHILDREN - and that's
different to just injecting a bit of dragon's blood.
When you make children, both the parents' DNA is mixed
in the kid's DNA. Since when does having a blood
transfusion alter your genetic makeup. If that's the
case, it's still crap.

> Some of that is very misleading. Currently the world
just topped 6 billion. 10 years ago the projections
for world population in 2050 were around 16 billion.
The latest projections place it more like 10 billion
in 2050. One of the biggest reasons for this is there
has been a tendency across the world for lowered
birthrates. Throw in something like VITAS, and the
world could conceivably be much less crowded in 2060
then it is now.

Drek, Sommers. VITAS took 10% of the world's
population. Even with 3 lots of 10% deaths, you've
still got more than 7 billion with today's
projections. And when you consider how much of the
world of Shadowrun has gone to crap and is useful for
supporting people (just for instance, most of Scotland
and a quarter (or thereabouts) of Germany are
radioactive wastelands).

I suppose you have a point when you consider that
they're now using soy and "farm-the-sea" techniques,
but still - at best, they're in exactly the same
situation we are now. You throw immortals or virtual
immortals into the mix and the world's population will
double within years, because PEOPLE STOP DYING. Boom.
THAT'S my point.

> Second, the amount of people that the planet can
support is a very nebulous number. The amount of food
produced in the world rose something to something like
10 times the amount grown 40 years ago. Unlike many of
the famines that occurred in Africa in the 80's
because of bad conditions, the famines of the 90's
have been mostly political. Russia, North Korea, China
all have problems with communism simply not getting
the job done. Africa continues it political problems
which contribute to its general mess.

And if anything, these problems are exacerbated in SR
times.

> People living longer is not necessarily a bad thing.
If they stay healthier during that time, and not just
live longer but require more resources. If a human
lived consistently until 120, he would probably be
considered middle age well into his 70's-80's. How
much more work could he do during that time?

Longer, sure. Forever? Big problem.

> Remember that its what Lofwyr IMPLIED was an
ulterior motive. When you're a paranoid SOB who uses
everyone around you like chess pieces, you tend to
think the rest of your peers act like that. He might
not be capable of thinking that D would do otherwise,
since he would have had at least 3 plots built into
this one.

But that's the only alternative. Well, one of them.
Either Dunkelzahn was trying to make everyone live
forever, which is stupid, or he was screwing with the
serum and intended to SHORTEN everyone's lives, or he
was trying to create a new race of servitors. I don't
see Dunkelzahn doing either of the two, and frankly,
the suggestion irritates me no end. But that's just me
and that's just a personal problem I have with the
book, not something that's inherently wrong with it.

> Also, there is the whole D as maverick route. He
liked people, and pissed off a lot of elves and
dragons in the process. He had gotten in trouble
several times with them several times, and when
against all dragon tradition when he made out a will
in the first place. He did what he thought was right,
not what everyone else thought. So maybe he did it
just to level the playing field a little. Elves live
to about 120-140, dwarves almost as much. Why should
they have all of the fun and the other 3 races get
screwed?

Okay, that I'm more in agreement with on the basic
level, but we still get into the basic stupidity of
making everyone immortal. Extending the lifespan to
120-140 years is all right, but I really don't think
that's what the serum was intended to do. I may be
remembering it wrong, but if I'm not, the intention
was to make everyone immortal, which is the equivalent
of world suicide in the long run, unless we could
seriously populate other planets.

> Besides, he got to tweak the IE's one more time from
beyond the grave. :)

I thought he did that pretty well with his bequests to
the Tirs in his will. :) But this WASN'T supposed to
be a "from beyond the grave" thing.

> True, the blurb was misleading, but so what? I was
pleasantly surprised that it followed off in a
different direction. How many times in life have you
gotten involved in one thing and then had it lead off
into another completely different place? Personally I
like those kind of stories AND runs if I'm involved
with them.

Ah - I don't have a problem with it branching off. I
have a problem with HOW it was done.

> How about the simple datasteal run on the corp? The
runners make the grab and off they go. On the way out,
the sam notices something for a second and thinks
nothing of it. Meanwhile, the security puke is frantic
that the runners noticed his little smuggling ring for
the yakuza, and suddenly the team has ninjas trying to
kill them for a job against Ares!
>
> The point is, you never know where life is going to
go.

True, but there are good ways and bad ways of doing
it. This was a bad way.

> Yes, the Jewel was one of those Deux ex Machinas.
Right it off as an Earthdawn artifact that just sits
there. With som many memories in it, there is no way
it could be used successfully except in a case like
that described in the book.
>
> And I actually thought the smell part was a nice
twist. This came up before about astral perception
being described that way because humans are for the
most part visual creatures. For an animal, it might be
much easier to process the information as scent
instead.

But he's NOT processing it as scent. If you look at
the spirit's explanation, he's using scent as a WAY to
look at things, because that's his primary sense. He's
still not really smelling it (which would be stupid
enough - smelling memories), but "looking" at it with
his nose. Same way meta mages "look" on the astral
with their eyes. They're not really using their eyes,
it's just the easiest way for them to understand it.
So why does the fact that he PICTURES himself using
scent astrally have any effect on being able to track
things? Logical flaw there.


> I definitely have to agree that 2XS and House of the
sun were 2 of the best. But Findley was the man when
it came to this stuff. Not too many did it better. But
I did like this one for a different point of view to
the whole concept.
Sommers

Each to their own I guess, Sommers. Certainly it was a
different point of view, but "different" isn't
necessarily "good". It isn't necessarily "bad" either
- but in this case it was. IMNSHO.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 17
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
> At 09:19 PM 10/21/99 , Rand Ratinac wrote:
> >S
> >P
> >W
> >O
> >I
> >L
> >A
> >
> >S
> >P
> >A
> >C
> >E
> >,
> >
> >L
> >I
> >K
> >E
> >,
> >
> >D
> >U
> >D
> >E
> > .
> >.
> > .
> >
> The Forever Drug, pg 249:
> "Dunkelzahn was the one who came up with the idea of
working with newborns, and disguising the gene therapy
experiments as a vaccination program. he was going to
initiate his own UCAS-funded "vaccination" program
last year. He thought that, if the therapy were
administered early enough in life, the normal human
and meat life span could be doubled, or even
tripled..."

Okay - so people go from 80-odd years to 160 or
240-odd. Not as drastic a problem as immortality, but
it would still have a huge effect on world population.
Why? Because people would NOT start having half or a
third as many babies. And what if women were fertile
for twice or three times as long?


> The Forever Drug, pg 259:
> "Dunkelzahn didn't want to serve humanity. No, it
was quite the other way around. You were playing into
his hands, helping him to create a new race of
servitors. The elves, you see, had become too
independent, and the drakes, well...they have their
limitations.
>
> That was Lowfyr;s interpretation. Mareth'riel
thought that he might be attempting to create a new
form of metatype (pg 250, 251). But from everything
else about him, D tended to help people out who could
then help themsleves (Ryan, other runners in will).

Which is what I'd like to think. But what if he's
right? Or what if she's right? That's getting back
into my own personal dislike of the book, though.


> Lowfyr was messing with her mind. He needed her to
work for him, and if she becomes unsure of her moral
footing, it becomes that much easier for him to
manipulate her. He runs an entire corp, so you know he
does that like nobodies business.
> Sommers

That's quite likely - but how can you be sure? There's
no proof either way.

Oh, and I take it that you think the "Jane Doe" body
found later wasn't Mareth'riel? :)

I think we're going to have to give up on this,
Sommers. I think The Forever Drug is the crappiest SR
book I've ever finished, with the possible exception
of Run Hard, Die Fast (keep in mind, I haven't
finished any of Nyx Smith's novels yet :) ). You
obviously don't. Neither one of us is going to
convince the other and I don't think we should. If you
liked it, good for you. I'M never going to, though. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 18
From: Gordon McCormick gmcc@*********.ie
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:25:53 +0100
Sommers wrote:
>

> But if the lifetime of a person were to double, its quite likely that the
> woman would be able to have children much later in life, and still be able
> to do it in a safe way. I'm sure than elven women could have kids safely
> well into their 30's or 40's if they're going to live to 150.

Possibly the menopause evolved later in life for elves, but for humans
and others it probably wouldn't change. Menopause isn't the same as
general aging and it probably wouldn't be affected by the stopwatch gene
thingy (I don't think) if all that does is stop the many aging effects.
On the other hand maybe it does, meaning immortals can have kids all the
time - probably better in a story sense.

Actually, a thought occurs.

Menopause probably evolved so that women were less likely to die from
childbirth when they were still very important to their existing
children and to the group/tribe they were part of. In effect by having
less children they made sure their genes were more likely to be passed
on. Now suppose that the immortals have got rid of all other aspects of
aging except that one. They could get to the stage where due to
population pressure and other factors the number of newly born people
goes way down - most people will only ever interact with adults since
their numbers will swell out of proportion to children which could also
have other wierd effects. Eventually the number of people capable of
having children would get less and less and eventually the gene pool
would go down the toilet and there'd be no more new people. Just a lot
of immortals trying not to die.

Actually, then they'd just develop genetic stuff to enable them to have
kids. I have no idea what I'm talking about, I think I need some sleep
:)

gordon
Message no. 19
From: Number Ten Ox Number_10_Ox@**********.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:41:02 -0700 (PDT)
-- Gordon McCormick <gmcc@*********.ie> wrote:

> Menopause isn't the same as
> general aging and it probably wouldn't be affected by the stopwatch gene
> thingy (I don't think) if all that does is stop the many aging effects.
> On the other hand maybe it does, meaning immortals can have kids all the
> time - probably better in a story sense.

Immortals can have kids.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

I
N
C
L
U
D
E
D

The entire plot of "Harlequin" hinges on Harlequin obtaining Ehran the
Scribe's daughter, Jane Foster. She and Glasgian Oakforest (the son of
Aithne Oakforest) prove that immortal men, at least, can father children.
As for immortal women, Jenna Ni'Faira is the daughter of Alachia...

--Number 10.

====--Number 10 Ox.
"It's a big yellow rubber ducky."
"Is it rigger-driven?"


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Message no. 20
From: Gordon McCormick gmcc@*********.ie
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:02:09 +0100
Number Ten Ox wrote:
>
> -- Gordon McCormick <gmcc@*********.ie> wrote:
>
> > Menopause isn't the same as
> > general aging and it probably wouldn't be affected by the stopwatch gene
> > thingy (I don't think) if all that does is stop the many aging effects.
> > On the other hand maybe it does, meaning immortals can have kids all the
> > time - probably better in a story sense.
>
> Immortals can have kids.
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> I
> N
> C
> L
> U
> D
> E
> D
>
> The entire plot of "Harlequin" hinges on Harlequin obtaining Ehran
the
> Scribe's daughter, Jane Foster. She and Glasgian Oakforest (the son of
> Aithne Oakforest) prove that immortal men, at least, can father children.

That would still work with what I was waffling about, since men don't
suddenly shut down reproduction the way women do - it just gradually
conks out like everything else when we get old. And yet again I wish I
had "Harlequin" :)

> As for immortal women, Jenna Ni'Faira is the daughter of Alachia...

Ah fair enough then, as noted it is much better storywise :)

gordon
Message no. 21
From: Anders Swenson anders@**********.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone Disposal)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 21:37:17 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.edu>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Disposal)


> At 08:27 PM 10/20/99 -0700, you wrote:

T
O
O

M
A
N
Y

>S

O
N

T
H
E

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
!


> >It's Doc'. But anyway...:)
> >
> >Well, I didn't mind the politics. It happens. The MAIN
> >problem I had was with the forever drug itself. Using
> >dragon blood to activate the stopwatch complex in
> >everyone (the "all children born after Oct 2061" bit).
> >CRAP!!!
>
> Crap that it would work or crap that he would try it? I have to finish
> reading dragons, but isn't that how some of those elves got so long lived?
>
> >Even if it wasn't such a stupid idea to begin with,
...

> >
> >Sorry, Anders, but this one just leaps out at me as a
> >crap book. It's not something I can totally quantify,
> >but look at it. Then look at 2XS, or House of the Sun,
> >or Wolf and Raven, or (my personal favourite)
> >Shadowplay. I'm afraid it's just not in the same
> >class.
>
> I definitely have to agree that 2XS and House of the sun were 2 of the
> best. But Findley was the man when it came to this stuff. Not too many did
> it better. But I did like this one for a different point of view to the
> whole concept.
> >
> Sommers
.

Ah, yes. I thought it was interesting to explore werewolves in SR fiction. I
really didn't mind the silly magic jewel, sometimes SR needs a little silly
sense of wonder, I suppose, what frosted me was the stupid ending, which
violated Lovecraft's rule on making the narrative capable of having been
related in the stated form, Oh well, semi OK until the last
age... --Anders

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