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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject: Copyright
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 01:07:52 CET
I'm not sure if it was this list or Shadowtalk, but I believe the illustrious
Mr. Hayden brought up the subject of copyright, or Who Owns What And What They
Can Do With It. As an aspiring filmmaker myself (and damnit I'M going to make
the Shadowrun movie) I can sympathize with him in wondering how to give credit
and share the wealth with all the creative types who helped generate the
original source material.
A while back when I was working on a script, I looked at all the
copyright details I could. One of the most important parts was that an
_idea_ cannot be copyrighted. If you're sitting ina bar with George Lucas
and he tells you his entire storyline (off the top of his head) for the next
Star Wars flick and you go home home a write the script, the script is yours.
Now, things swing back and forth depending on how much work George had done,
but assuming he was just spinning drunken tales of Jedi and Wookies and
didn't have any documentation at home to prove he'd been working on the idea,
you get credit for the screenplay. Maybe not the story, but the script itself
is yours.
The thing about Shadowtalk is that it is interactive fiction. That meansthat it
was coleectively generated by all of us, but without much coodination
(except when a half-dozen would privately arrange an event). The 'product' as
a whole is sort of like Chaos Theory applied to the creative process. At any
rate, the procduct we collectively made is Shadowtalk@*****.Bitnet, a computer
log of transactions that collectively make a story.
Now, if you take that story and word-for-word transcribe it into a
script, then I believe there is some precedent for copyright infringement-you
are taking an already existing work (Shadowtalk) and making money off of it.
If, however, you simply take the idea-Computer Hackers from hell assist a
young AI in freeing himself from the evil corporation that sends MONICA out to
kill them all-and write an original work that bears little resemblance to the
logs, then you're in the clear. The tricky part is that line where the script
bears a marked resemblance to the story: that's what the courts decide.
At any rate, good luck on the script. If you're considering offering
it as a movie, this whole issue may not become relevevant (see quote below).
Then again, there are tons of movies made each year that no one hears about-
just read Variety for ads on such classics as "Shootfighter" and
"Shootfighter
II" (from the producers of 'Shoofighter', could you guess).

J Roberson
"My job is to listen to about 120 pitches for movies each day. If that slips
below 100 then I'm not doing my job. . . Collectively, this studio hears about
50,000 ideas for films each year. The problem is, we can only produce about
12."
--Griffin Mill, "The Player"
Message no. 2
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Subject: Copyright
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 03:42:19 CET
Copyright back to this for the second time today
do I have a life? not sure yet - let me research it.

Public domain - It makes my inards clench. I mean you do all this
work on a character then someone takes the idea and writes something about
this character. Think of how the guy who made Sherlock Holmes would feel
if he knew you were writing about his character - if he didn't like the story
he would be pretty mad.

I like the permission idea for characters - its their character they
decide what runs he goes on. So you get his permission to use it in a book.
Now, the question of money - I think you have to atleast give someone
a free copy of the book if you use their character. What comes after
is between you and them.

Now I know that there are many of us out there who are dreadfully
in love with our characters, my self included ( like you couldn't tell).
But the fact is many of us are not going to write books about them, lets face
it we just don't have either the time, the ability, or the want.

So what I am saying is NO to the public domain idea.

PS. we've only had a maximum of 100 people over on the TALK list at one
time. I doubt if we have had 200 people total on the list. Of all the people
that are on the list, I doubt if more than 50 have ever written. Also many
people have not been involved in all the story lines, Monica being the one
almost everyone on was involved in.

This really didn't help as an ultimate solution because there is none.

PPS. Does any one know if Northern University of Arizona has
an internet connection, (Flagstaff AZ.) I happen to be going
there in the fall.

PPPS. what are we all going to do about the summer, I might
have my characters go on a world tour or something (maybe Sheena will
go megastar and have a world tour (yeah right)) ( or we will just go
on a big walkabout across the world)

Nightfox
The one and only.
Thank god, I don't think the
world would stand another.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
Message no. 3
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Subject: Copyright
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 14:51:39 -0500
What matters to me the most is the character not the adventure.

You say people would be able to use my characters if they changed the
name - I say no, because they are still using the character. The most important
part about a character is the character not the name.

ie. Nightfox would still be who he was even if I renamed him Travelan or
something. What makes a character is not the name but rather the concept.
Anybody can make a mage. Anyone can make a mysterious mage. But a drow mage
(yes this is rather original for shadowrun, only two people I know) who
doesn't understand his power totally but is quickly becoming an extremeley power
mage, who also owns a power/weapon focus on extreme power and who is over
5000 years old but has only been really there for 16 years while his body is
20 tends to rather unique. There will also be a few more twist by tonight
that will add more to the character.

CRUSH - Yes anyone could make a Dumb loveable troll - infact dumb lovable
but large a strong characters are rather prevelent in stories. Of course
this isn't CRUSH'es concept. It much different but since pratically no one
knows his whole concept I do not have to worry.

Lister - I stole the name. It is from a show called Red Dwarf which I named
Project Red Dwarf from. I also told people in the begining where I got the
names.


What I am trying to say is that it is the name that is important - it is the
character. From example I do not beleive Ed. Matusky could claim copyright
On the name "Highlander", it was a movie for peet-sake. He could claim
rights to the concept though.


so for 1 it is no

for 2
well if my proposal comes fact (character concept) then yes

but if just charcter name then I say no from the fact of people
who drop off the list to keep their characters (it probably won't
happen) would still not be able to keep their characters.

secondly - would the people who wrote the book then have claim on
the character concept now because they wrote it to a book?


So in conclusion - The more distinctive a character is the less right others
would have to use it.

I tend to agree with Tom and Rin on this.

Nightfox
remember character concepts
change over time, its called
growth.
Message no. 4
From: "Hayes, Ann" <ahayes@***.NET>
Subject: copyright
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 02:28:05 -0700
greetings. just wondering what kind of info we can post to the
list. i know that FASA is much more lax in what they let on the net than
TSR but what is going too far and what is acceptable?

roun
ahayes@***.net
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:01:08 +0100
Hayes, Ann said on 2:28/22 Aug 97...

> greetings. just wondering what kind of info we can post to the
> list. i know that FASA is much more lax in what they let on the net than
> TSR but what is going too far and what is acceptable?

Minor quotes of rules or game stats are generally okay, but don't go
posting whole pages of stuff copied straight from a ruelbook -- if only
because people would yell at you for wasting bandwidth :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 04:23:01 -0600
At 02:28 8/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
> greetings. just wondering what kind of info we can post to the
>list. i know that FASA is much more lax in what they let on the net than
>TSR but what is going too far and what is acceptable?

This won't go out till tommorrow when I log on again, but this is the gist
of it from my view. (As list co-administrator, this is the view you are
also supposed to follow ;)

Post whatever the heck you like as long as it's *yours*.
Don't post anything more than a few lines from any copyrighted material.
Basically, a short quote from a FASA book to justify your point of view
won't raise any feathers, but certain people won't be pleased if you go
posting, say, the entire spell list from Awakenings. (I'm one of those
people..)

Also, if you post something long or involved (Like a huge set of rule
modifications), or if you have a web page and upload something like that,
you should also include a disclaimer. There's a few variations that float
around, this is just an example of the one I use in TSS:
-
This magazine is in no way endorsed nor produced by FASA
Corporation. Shadowrun and Matrix are copyrights of FASA (1997)
Neither I, nor the authors of any individual pieces intend to
infringe on FASA's intellectual property and rights. FASA has not
read this material in advance, and as such, none of this material is
approved by FASA.
-

Now I'm going to bed. After I clear all my books off it :P

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 7
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:14:28 EDT
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 02:28:05 -0700 "Hayes, Ann" <ahayes@***.NET> writes:
> greetings. just wondering what kind of info we can post to
>the
>list. i know that FASA is much more lax in what they let on the net
>than
>TSR but what is going too far and what is acceptable?


On the list, I think it's mainly a matter of not posting entire pages of
sourcebook material. I, personally, don't post pieces of a book greater
than a paragraph unless it deals with a ruling (like the infamous
'grounding through quickenings' type debates). OTOH, I've seen game
statistics for published totems and spirits pop up on the list from time
to time. Basically: don't post the plots to adventures and novels or
GM-only info without spoilers, and use your personal judgment on
FASA-copyright. If you were in FASA's situation, what would you be
willing to allow people to post this way?


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
Warning: Home Page in Transit
Message no. 8
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 12:21:32 +1000
> greetings. just wondering what kind of info we can post to the
> list. i know that FASA is much more lax in what they let on the net than
> TSR but what is going too far and what is acceptable?
>

Like the other guys have already generally said, FASA is a lot more
accepting of that kind of thing than TSR.

Don't print up copies of the official sourcebooks, and if you're publishing
something (like house rules) on the net, it's generally a good idea to
make some kind of copyright disclaimer. Other than that, go to town.

FASA also seems to value the feedback and ideas that they get from the
net. Awakenings was playtested by people from this list because Steve
Kenson is a listmember, and The SR Companion used a lot of rules from the
net (can't remember which ones exactly).

Oh, and yeah... A couple of the listmembers are getting their handles in
one of the next sourcebooks. Keep an eye out for them.

Marty
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:40:59 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 12:21/23 Aug 97...

> Awakenings was playtested by people from this list because Steve Kenson
> is a listmember

I wouldn't quite put it that way... I've still got a file called NAGM.uue
on my HD but it didn't quite come from FASA, at least not directly. I also
don't think Steve subscribed to the list back then.

> and The SR Companion used a lot of rules from the net (can't remember
> which ones exactly).

Linda Naughton's skill rules, for one. Don't know if they're still up on
her website, though.

> Oh, and yeah... A couple of the listmembers are getting their handles in
> one of the next sourcebooks. Keep an eye out for them.

That was just in Target: UCAS, wasn't it?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 07:36:55 -0400
At 11:40 AM 8/23/97 +0100, Gurth wrote these timeless words:
>MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 12:21/23 Aug 97...
>
>> Awakenings was playtested by people from this list because Steve Kenson
>> is a listmember
>
>I wouldn't quite put it that way... I've still got a file called NAGM.uue
>on my HD but it didn't quite come from FASA, at least not directly. I also
>don't think Steve subscribed to the list back then.
>
Steve is, as far as I know, a fairly recent Listmember (At least as far as
these things go. I think he's been here about as long as me, which is a
year now...:))

Actually, Most of Steve's Awakenings stuff was first printed in Scrawls
From the Sprawls, the Shadowrun APA. I believe it moved from tehre to an
unofficial netbook called Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic. Finally it
became the Awakenings that we all know and love...:]

Few of the listmembers here ever got to have any input or playtesting of
those rules, really, other than any of you who were in the APA 5 years ago
(Steve Tinne), and Steve Kenson himself...

>> and The SR Companion used a lot of rules from the net (can't remember
>> which ones exactly).
>
>Linda Naughton's skill rules, for one. Don't know if they're still up on
>her website, though.
>
>> Oh, and yeah... A couple of the listmembers are getting their handles in
>> one of the next sourcebooks. Keep an eye out for them.
>
>That was just in Target: UCAS, wasn't it?
>
Yuppers...:]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"CrapGame, you bitch!"
-- R.C. during the Drive in the Country tournament
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:49:53 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 05:50:56 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:

> > Oh, and yeah... A couple of the listmembers are getting their handles in
> > one of the next sourcebooks. Keep an eye out for them.
>
> That was just in Target: UCAS, wasn't it?
>
And will be in RBB2 as well...
-K
Message no. 12
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:08:51 -0400
At 03:49 AM 8/24/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-08-23 05:50:56 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:
>
>> > Oh, and yeah... A couple of the listmembers are getting their handles in
>> > one of the next sourcebooks. Keep an eye out for them.
>>
>> That was just in Target: UCAS, wasn't it?
>>
>And will be in RBB2 as well...
>
Really? Who's in this one? Any ideas?

I didn;t know they were putting anyone in RBB...

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"CrapGame, you bitch!"
-- R.C. during the Drive in the Country tournament
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:18:20 +0100
J. Keith Henry said on 3:49/24 Aug 97...

> And will be in RBB2 as well...

So who will it be now?

I'm getting jealous... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:55:53 +1000
> > Awakenings was playtested by people from this list because Steve Kenson
> > is a listmember
>
> I wouldn't quite put it that way... I've still got a file called NAGM.uue
> on my HD but it didn't quite come from FASA, at least not directly. I also
> don't think Steve subscribed to the list back then.
>

<shrug> I got that response off FASAMike when I enquired about the
possibilities of playtesting the Australian sourcbook that has been
perenially half-finished for years.

> > and The SR Companion used a lot of rules from the net (can't remember
> > which ones exactly).
>
> Linda Naughton's skill rules, for one. Don't know if they're still up on
> her website, though.
>

Ah yeah, that's right; The group I used to play in bitched about the
time factor involved.

Marty
Message no. 15
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:57:13 +1000
> > And will be in RBB2 as well...
>
> So who will it be now?
>
> I'm getting jealous... :)
>

So 'm I...... I want to see orichalcum bullets appearing somewhere.
<pout>

Marty
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:08:09 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 05:40:09 EDT, chaos@*****.COM (Bull) writes:

> >And will be in RBB2 as well...
> >
> Really? Who's in this one? Any ideas?
>
> I didn;t know they were putting anyone in RBB...
>
I could have made a great leap here, but I received a letter a while back
saying there were some "real world hackers" who would have their screen names
or something similar. Sadly, I don't believe in absorbing every single
letter I personally get into the archives. And, as this one came around the
same time as the Target UCAS conversation earlier this summer....

-K
Message no. 17
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:12:12 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 05:58:18 EDT, s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU writes:

>
> So 'm I...... I want to see orichalcum bullets appearing somewhere.
> <pout>
>
> Marty
>
(*poof* ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping
ping ping)

enough Orichalcum bullets to fill an Ares Predator II clip fall on the floor
in front of you...their just really expensive, nothing else...go have 'em
enchanted by someone else.... (Binder)

-K (sorry, I had to do that)
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:20:21 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 19:55/24 Aug 97...

> > I wouldn't quite put it that way... I've still got a file called NAGM.uue
> > on my HD but it didn't quite come from FASA, at least not directly. I also
> > don't think Steve subscribed to the list back then.
>
> <shrug> I got that response off FASAMike when I enquired about the
> possibilities of playtesting the Australian sourcbook that has been
> perenially half-finished for years.

Are you sure we're talking about the same sort of thing here? I was trying
to say that I got that NAGM.uue from someone else who'd got it from
another person who'd got it I-don't-know-where; I never approached anyone
at FASA about it...

Oh, and I didn't say this :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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