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Message no. 1
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Crater Lake?
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:23:40 -0400
Jani Fikouras writes, about Thera:

> It didnt simply collapse, it went out with a bang :) literaly. It exploded
> destroying the island. If I am not grossly mistaken, the crater in Tir
> Tairngire was formed at about the same time.


Yep.. Which brings up another question that's been bugging me. DOES ANYONE
KNOW WHAT THE FRAG IS HAPPENING AT CRATER LAKE? The TT sourcebook says the
military's closed it off. _Worlds Without End_ gets oh-so-close to telling
you what they're doing with it. Has it been mentioned yet in a published
FASA product, or is it something they're still holding off on?

I would really like to know because I want to work it into my campaign, but
hesitate to make something up if it would invalidate later sources. Was it
the site of Thera, and are they trying to excavate it? Is it some other
related power source? Are they building something completely new there?
I'd like to hear if there's any FASA information I'm missing, or even any
good guesses as to what's going on. Thanks.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| Gray's Corollary to Clarke's Theorem:
My opinions are my opinions. | "Any technology that is distinguishable
Please don't blame anyone else. | from magic is insufficiently advanced."
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake?
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:51:55 +0930
S.F. Eley wrote:
>
> Jani Fikouras writes, about Thera:
>
> > It didnt simply collapse, it went out with a bang :) literaly. It exploded
> > destroying the island. If I am not grossly mistaken, the crater in Tir
> > Tairngire was formed at about the same time.
>
>
> Yep.. Which brings up another question that's been bugging me. DOES ANYONE
> KNOW WHAT THE FRAG IS HAPPENING AT CRATER LAKE? The TT sourcebook says the
> military's closed it off. _Worlds Without End_ gets oh-so-close to telling
> you what they're doing with it. Has it been mentioned yet in a published
> FASA product, or is it something they're still holding off on?

It's undoubtably something bad... :) Mundo magic, probably.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake?
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:48:58 +0100
S.F. Eley said on 19 Oct 95...

> Yep.. Which brings up another question that's been bugging me. DOES ANYONE
> KNOW WHAT THE FRAG IS HAPPENING AT CRATER LAKE?

That's what I wanted to know from the moment I first read it in the TT
book... I don't have an asnwer yet :(

> I would really like to know because I want to work it into my campaign, but
> hesitate to make something up if it would invalidate later sources. Was it
> the site of Thera, and are they trying to excavate it? Is it some other
> related power source? Are they building something completely new there?
> I'd like to hear if there's any FASA information I'm missing, or even any
> good guesses as to what's going on. Thanks.

They're obviously doing something that connects to ED -- look at the
flying blocks of stone over Crater Lake. Does this look like Theran
airships or what? Apart from that, I don't know... The explosion probably
has something to do with the end of the Fourth World, but what?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Quaedam litteratura illitterato
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake?
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:34:37 GMT
Gurth writes

> S.F. Eley said on 19 Oct 95...
>
> > Yep.. Which brings up another question that's been bugging me. DOES ANYONE
> > KNOW WHAT THE FRAG IS HAPPENING AT CRATER LAKE?
>
> That's what I wanted to know from the moment I first read it in the TT
> book... I don't have an asnwer yet :(
>
Who thats read TT isn't on the 'I want to know about that' list :(

> They're obviously doing something that connects to ED -- look at the
> flying blocks of stone over Crater Lake. Does this look like Theran
> airships or what? Apart from that, I don't know... The explosion probably
> has something to do with the end of the Fourth World, but what?
>
>
The flying blocks certainly do reek of airship magical technology.
The therans were not the only ones with those but were responsible
for the flying 'mountains', which suggests but does not prove Theran
magicians are ammong the immortals in the Tir-Taingire. The other
matter is someone mentions a time period (7100 years approx) ago when
someone wonders about magical after effects building with time, and
someone indicates that hill was built 7000 approx years ago [yes i
said built, but thay might not be right, short on info]. This is
interesting because i was under the immpression that the 5th age was
around 5000 years long, putting the hieght of the ED scourge about
7500 to 7800 years ago. Now ED is about 200 (HB list scourge as about
300 years each side of peak = 600, in ED if you check the dates they
were in kears 400 years, and cams out 'centuries' early) This puts ED
(1507 Throal calender) about 7500 years before SR. Now how could that
mountain have happened at the same time as Thera 'blew up' [campain
set info?] if Thera didn't go down till the end of the fourth world.

Well some info, some questions, can anyone shed any light on this? It
won't answer ways going on [FASA!], but it might find out if Thera is
tied in with that mountain to some extent.

Mark
Message no. 5
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake?
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:36:14 +0100
S.F. Eley wrote:
> Jani Fikouras writes, about Thera:
>
> > It didnt simply collapse, it went out with a bang :) literaly. It exploded
> > destroying the island. If I am not grossly mistaken, the crater in Tir
> > Tairngire was formed at about the same time.
>
> Yep.. Which brings up another question that's been bugging me. DOES ANYONE
> KNOW WHAT THE FRAG IS HAPPENING AT CRATER LAKE? The TT sourcebook says the
> military's closed it off. _Worlds Without End_ gets oh-so-close to telling
> you what they're doing with it. Has it been mentioned yet in a published
> FASA product, or is it something they're still holding off on?

My guess is that they are probably trying to harness the raw power of the
place to do something against the a) thorns b) horrors c) unknown factor.

> I would really like to know because I want to work it into my campaign, but
> hesitate to make something up if it would invalidate later sources. Was it
> the site of Thera, and are they trying to excavate it?

I do not think that this is were Thera used to be, I am fairly certain that
Thera is Santorini. Nevertheless all that fluyin boulders drek gives my a gut
feeling telling me that they are the current incarnation of Thera.
As I said I think that they are using their knowledge to harness the magic
of the place.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

I've been asked if vi was an easy editor to learn, whether it was intuitive
or not. My general response to this question is: "Yes, some of us think so.
But most people think that we are crazy."
Message no. 6
From: John Jacobsma <j.jacobsma@************.COM>
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:10:17 -0600
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OK, here's the deal: I'm planning to send my players into Tir
Tairngire. Does anyone have the scoop as to what Those Wacky Elves
(TM) are up to at Crater Lake? If you're not able to speak "ex
cathedra", as it were, how about some educated guesses?

Also, as the "hook", I'm planning on using the Ancients. As I recall,
Tom Dowd wrote a short story called either "To Reign in Hell" or
"Fall From Grace". If someone could tell me where that was published,
it would save me a hour of rummaging.

Any related thoughts you might have would also be welcome. And don't
worry, none of my players are on this list. (What a luxury!)

advTHANKSance!

ttfn,

// - - - john jacobsma - - - <j.jacobsma@************.com> - - -
// for geek code & pgp public key, visit my web page:
// http://www.inil.com/users/big_jake/
// - - - - - - - f - - - n - - - o - - - r - - - d - - - - - - -

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Message no. 7
From: Jonathan Wright <jwrigh01@********.CA>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 02:02:03 -0500
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, John Jacobsma wrote:

>
> OK, here's the deal: I'm planning to send my players into Tir
> Tairngire. Does anyone have the scoop as to what Those Wacky Elves
> (TM) are up to at Crater Lake? If you're not able to speak "ex
> cathedra", as it were, how about some educated guesses?

Whatever they were doing, their plans have been seriously altered
recently, when Harlequin and Aina allowed several powerful Horrors to
cross over at the Lake whil employing blood magic to destroy the Horror
Ysgarthe. These events were detailed in the novel Worlds Without End.

The sight is very mana rich, much like a ley line or the spot where the
Great Ghost Dance occurred. The Tir was probably attempting to harness
this energy for their own purposes (possibly to locate Thera again?).

> Also, as the "hook", I'm planning on using the Ancients. As I recall,
> Tom Dowd wrote a short story called either "To Reign in Hell" or
> "Fall From Grace". If someone could tell me where that was published,
> it would save me a hour of rummaging.

The story appeared in the module Elven Fire.

Jon Wright
Message no. 8
From: Todd Leask <taleask@***.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:03:16 -0700
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, John Jacobsma wrote:

> Also, as the "hook", I'm planning on using the Ancients. As I recall,
> Tom Dowd wrote a short story called either "To Reign in Hell" or
> "Fall From Grace". If someone could tell me where that was published,
> it would save me a hour of rummaging.

They story was from the adventure elven fire.


"You take something of yourself and give it free of charge. You take a
part of yourself and do so because you believe you are connected to
everything else. You become aware of yourself as a part of everything. You
suffer momentarily so that someone else will not have to."

Unknown, Winnebago, Before 1945
Message no. 9
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:52:47 -0000
> Also, as the "hook", I'm planning on using the Ancients. As I recall,
> Tom Dowd wrote a short story called either "To Reign in Hell" or
> "Fall From Grace". If someone could tell me where that was published,
> it would save me a hour of rummaging.

I know what your talking about. "To Reign in Hell" is the prologue to the
module Elven Fire.

> advTHANKSance!

Not a problem.

> ttfn,
>
> // - - - john jacobsma - - - <j.jacobsma@************.com> - - -

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

***********************************************************************
Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
***********************************************************************

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--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 10
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Crater Lake -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 08:24:38 -0500
As someone else mentioned, Crater Lake is a high magic spot. It is my guess
that it's creation has something to do with the end of the fourth world and the
destruction of Thera (Atlantis). The Tir has walled it off, for two possible reasons
that I can think of:
1) They are using the magic boost to perform rituals beyond they're abilities
elsewhere.
2) They are trying to seal off the area to prevent horrors from coming through.
Note that the more magic that gets done in the area the easier it is for horrors to
come through...

This actually gives me a third possibility: 3) All of the above. The official policy is
to seal it off, no magic is to be done there, but several factions use their influence
to sneak in and do what they want to gain power in their internal struggles.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 11
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:39:07 -0800
> Also, as the "hook", I'm planning on using the Ancients. As I recall,
> Tom Dowd wrote a short story called either "To Reign in Hell" or
> "Fall From Grace". If someone could tell me where that was published,
> it would save me a hour of rummaging.

It was called Better to Reign as I recall, and I think it was
distrtibuted on one of FASA's promotional flyers back about 4 years ago.
I have no idea where you could find it now, but give Paolo's site a try.
--
Steven A. Tinner

FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"You remember when you asked me to tell you when you were acting rudely
and insensitively?"
"You're doing it now."
Message no. 12
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:54:37 +0000
On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Loki wrote:

> I know what your talking about. "To Reign in Hell" is the prologue to the
> module Elven Fire.

Also in a FASA SR flyer.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 13
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:49:33 -0800
At 23:10 12/10/96 -0600, John Jacobsma wrote:
>OK, here's the deal: I'm planning to send my players into Tir
>Tairngire. Does anyone have the scoop as to what Those Wacky Elves
>(TM) are up to at Crater Lake? If you're not able to speak "ex
>cathedra", as it were, how about some educated guesses?

Well, they've got some big structures the size of a city block hovering above
the lake, which suggests that Those Wacky Elves(TM) have access to True Air,
which is apparently a constituent of the thousand-foot-long flying stone barges
of the Therans in Earthdawn. Given that gathering True Air requires flying
through powerful storms with fine orichalcum nets, this produces a number
of possibilities for security leaks.

Crater Lake itself seems to be a very magical spot. (Duuuh...) I've heard
it suggested that it may be a focal spot of some kind for tapping into the
full power of the country of Tir Tairngire (I forget the Earthdawn jargon for
this).

One of the remarks in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook by Harlequin suggests that
the TT elves are working on a Great Ward. I suspect they're plotting to create
a Dome of Air and Fire, much like the one that protected Thera during the
Scourge, over the entire country, and Crater Lake may be an essential power
source.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 14
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 23:27:49 +0000
|Crater Lake itself seems to be a very magical spot. (Duuuh...) I've heard
|it suggested that it may be a focal spot of some kind for tapping into the
|full power of the country of Tir Tairngire (I forget the Earthdawn jargon for
|this).

Hmmmmmm.
Crater Lake is Tirs Pattern Item eh?
Nice idea....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake -Reply
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 17:49:25 +0000
> From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
> Subject: Crater Lake -Reply

> As someone else mentioned, Crater Lake is a high magic spot. It is my guess
> that it's creation has something to do with the end of the fourth world and the
> destruction of Thera (Atlantis). The Tir has walled it off, for two possible reasons
> that I can think of:

It is likely a power locus similar to the one mentioned (extremely)
briefly in the Atzlan sourcebook.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 16
From: John Jacobsma <j.jacobsma@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:01:51 -0600
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On Wednesday, December 11, at 2:02 AM, Jonathan Wright wrote:
> Whatever they were doing, their plans have been seriously altered
^^^^
Those Wacky Elves (TM)
> recently, when Harlequin and Aina allowed several powerful Horrors to
> cross over at the Lake whil employing blood magic to destroy the Horror
> Ysgarthe. These events were detailed in the novel Worlds Without End.

Ah, yes! How could I have forgotten that? Thanx for the reminder!

> The sight is very mana rich, much like a ley line or the spot where the
> Great Ghost Dance occurred. The Tir was probably attempting to harness
> this energy for their own purposes (possibly to locate Thera again?).

I guess I wasn't specific enough in my RFC. It's obvious (to me,
anyway) that they're attempting to harness arcane energy. What's not
obvious is exactly _what_ they're trying to do with it. That's what
I'm interested in hearing opinions on.

On Wednesday, December 11 at 8:24 AM, Mike Elkins wrote:
> As someone else mentioned, Crater Lake is a high magic spot. It is my guess
> that it's creation has something to do with the end of the fourth world and the
> destruction of Thera (Atlantis). The Tir has walled it off, for two possible reasons
> that I can think of:

That's seems like a good guess to me, even though we're pretty
certain that Thera was on the other side of the world. Makes me
wonder why Ehran and Oakforest picked the Pacific NW as the location
for the Land of Promise. Probably just being practical. There is a
reference on p. 22 of the sourcebook (shadowtalk, so it may be drek)
that gives the exact date of Crater Lake's formation as 22-JUL-3454
B.C. (At 9:35 AM!) Does this correspond to the destruction of Thera?

> 1) They are using the magic boost to perform rituals beyond they're abilities
> elsewhere.
> 2) They are trying to seal off the area to prevent horrors from coming through.
> Note that the more magic that gets done in the area the easier it is for horrors to
> come through...
>
> This actually gives me a third possibility: 3) All of the above. The official policy
is
> to seal it off, no magic is to be done there, but several factions use their
influence
> to sneak in and do what they want to gain power in their internal struggles.

Again, a good guess. When meddling with Forces Beyond Human
Comprehension (TM), it's always best to keep them solely to yourself.
(The meddler _always_ assumes that they can handle it, although no
one else can.)

On Wednesday, December 11 at 11:49 AM, Max Rible wrote:
> Crater Lake itself seems to be a very magical spot. (Duuuh...) I've heard
> it suggested that it may be a focal spot of some kind for tapping into the
> full power of the country of Tir Tairngire (I forget the Earthdawn jargon for
> this).

On Wednesday, December 11 at 11:27 PM, Spike replied:
> Hmmmmmm.
> Crater Lake is Tirs Pattern Item eh?
> Nice idea....

<sigh> Looks like it's back to the ED sourcebooks for me...

Max Rible continued:
> One of the remarks in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook by Harlequin suggests that
> the TT elves are working on a Great Ward. I suspect they're plotting to create
> a Dome of Air and Fire, much like the one that protected Thera during the
^^^^^^^^^
Not very well! ;)

> Scourge, over the entire country, and Crater Lake may be an essential power
> source.

This seems like a reasonable conjecture to me. Did this subject come
up again in the Aztlan sourcebook, or am I confused?

// -- john jacobsma ------- <j.jacobsma@************.com> --
// for geek code & pgp key, visit my web page:
// http://www.inil.com/users/big_jake/
// -- fnord ---------------- fnord ---------------- fnord --

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Message no. 17
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake -Reply
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:28:54 GMT
Droopy writes
> > From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
> > Subject: Crater Lake -Reply
>
> > As someone else mentioned, Crater Lake is a high magic spot. It is my guess
> > that it's creation has something to do with the end of the fourth world and the
> > destruction of Thera (Atlantis). The Tir has walled it off, for two possible
reasons
> > that I can think of:
>
> It is likely a power locus similar to the one mentioned (extremely)
> briefly in the Atzlan sourcebook.
>
The words were 'locus point', which might or mght not be a 'Country
pattern point' you see in ED anything with a NAME has a pattern,
people places objects, whoever manages to link to Gias true name
really has some power on tap!

Mark
Message no. 18
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:38:55 GMT
John Jacobsma writes

> > recently, when Harlequin and Aina allowed several powerful Horrors to
no only Ania was guilty as drek, see my other post on this thread.

> > cross over at the Lake whil employing blood magic to destroy the Horror
> > Ysgarthe. These events were detailed in the novel Worlds Without End.

> That's seems like a good guess to me, even though we're pretty
> certain that Thera was on the other side of the world.
The maps match, for it being in south Eastern Europe / far East Med.

> Makes me
> wonder why Ehran and Oakforest picked the Pacific NW as the location
> for the Land of Promise. Probably just being practical.
No, it wasn't the easist, there was another reason (unspecified)

> There is a
> reference on p. 22 of the sourcebook (shadowtalk, so it may be drek)
> that gives the exact date of Crater Lake's formation as 22-JUL-3454
> B.C. (At 9:35 AM!) Does this correspond to the destruction of Thera?
>
Don't think so but can check, i have both dates, can post the
calander (see other post) again if required.

> Not very well! ;)
>
oh???????????????????????????

Mark
Message no. 19
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 17:51:42 UT
Can Any one say ROSWELL II? I knew you could.
((now that is how t sound like fox ;-) ))
Tim NTOO
Message no. 20
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:58:27 +1000
Has anything official (or unofficial) been said about Crater Lake past
the scant tidbits provided in Tir Tairngire?

I'd really appreciate help here, people - research for a story.

*Sleepless in Sydney...*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 21
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 01:10:33 EST
In a message dated 12/29/1998 5:58:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU writes:

> Has anything official (or unofficial) been said about Crater Lake past
> the scant tidbits provided in Tir Tairngire?
>
> I'd really appreciate help here, people - research for a story.
>
The only things I have ever heard is that Crater Lake is a Elven city that
went for the kaer effect to escape from the Horrors, and has yet to have it's
walls brought down, or shut down to let out whatever is inside out.

And this idea has been pieced together from sketchy information coming out of
all of the books FASA has ever put out too.

-Herc
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 06:47:53 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Mike Bobroff wrote:
/
/ RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU writes:
/
/ > Has anything official (or unofficial) been said about Crater Lake past
/ > the scant tidbits provided in Tir Tairngire?
/ >
/ > I'd really appreciate help here, people - research for a story.
/
/ The only things I have ever heard is that Crater Lake is a Elven city that
/ went for the kaer effect to escape from the Horrors, and has yet to have it's
/ walls brought down, or shut down to let out whatever is inside out.

I'm suddenly reminded of the movie "The Keep" <EGMG>.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 23
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:20:07 -0500
Mike Bobroff wrote:

> The only things I have ever heard is that Crater Lake is a Elven city that
> went for the kaer effect to escape from the Horrors, and has yet to have
it's
> walls brought down, or shut down to let out whatever is inside out.

Okay. However, I recall something from the TT book where they're talking
about how something that's magically destroyed, or maybe it's when
something that is magical is destroyed, a resonance effect builds up that
increases over time. Someone then made the point of asking how much
resonance would build up over the ~8000 years (7902, IIRC) since the crater
was formed.

The impression I got was that the Crater Lake site was a destroyed kaer
that's been ramping up mana for millenia, and that the Tir is now trying to
tap the resultant spike point. In _WWE_, Aina taps the spike point at the
site to destroy the Horror Ysrgrathe (or however it's spelled), but in
doing so opens the way for others to come into the world. (At least,
that's the implication from Dunk's fax to her in the end of the book.)

However, I imagine the whole point becomes moot post-Dragon Heart.
Although I'd love to get a picture of the Council of Princes when they hear
the news that all the site's mana just drained away all of a sudden...
Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 24
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:54:32 EST
In a message dated 12/30/98 8:47:05 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

>
> / The only things I have ever heard is that Crater Lake is a Elven city
that
> / went for the kaer effect to escape from the Horrors, and has yet to have
> it's
> / walls brought down, or shut down to let out whatever is inside out.
>
> I'm suddenly reminded of the movie "The Keep" <EGMG>.
>
No WAY!!! Malasar was WAY too far a badass villain to go hiding out in and
around the Crater Lake vicinity. Yes, I really, *REALLY*, get a kick out of
that movie. Every so great often I come up with a vampire villain (recurring
type), and use him as the basis.

-K
Message no. 25
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:10:04 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, K in the Shadows wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 12/30/98 8:47:05 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
/ dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:
/
/ > / The only things I have ever heard is that Crater Lake is a Elven city
/ that
/ > / went for the kaer effect to escape from the Horrors, and has yet to have
/ > it's
/ > / walls brought down, or shut down to let out whatever is inside out.
/ >
/ > I'm suddenly reminded of the movie "The Keep" <EGMG>.
/ >
/ No WAY!!! Malasar was WAY too far a badass villain to go hiding out in and
/ around the Crater Lake vicinity.

Well, you'd have to change a few things :) What if he/it was lured and
trapped there? Or... I'm going to have to rent that movie again and take
notes. It's been awhile and I can't remember the details.

/ Yes, I really, *REALLY*, get a kick out of
/ that movie.

Me too. It's defenitly time to rent that movie again.

/ Every so great often I come up with a vampire villain (recurring
/ type), and use him as the basis.

<shudder> ;)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 26
From: Rick J Federle <griffinhq@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:00:29 -0500
On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:54:32 EST K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 12/30/98 8:47:05 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:
>
>>
>> / The only things I have ever heard is that Crater Lake is a Elven
>city
>that
>> / went for the kaer effect to escape from the Horrors, and has yet
>to have
>> it's
>> / walls brought down, or shut down to let out whatever is inside
>out.
>>
There's also a reference to floating buildings at Crater Lake. (New
Thera anyone?) Don't recall the reference at the moment, however.
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Message no. 27
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:08:12 EST
In a message dated 12/30/98 6:04:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
griffinhq@****.COM writes:

>
> There's also a reference to floating buildings at Crater Lake.
(New
> Thera anyone?) Don't recall the reference at the moment, however.
> _____________________________________________________________
There is an artist's conception of that in the book actually :)

-K
Message no. 28
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:31:12 +0300
I've been off-town and away from my computer for a few days, and has
anything special happened while I'm gone? No... they just managed to
sell the whole business...

Well, I hope that something good comes out of it.

And now on to the topic. It's been some time since the last time I
needed Tir Tairngire -sourcebook, but now that I had to uncover it
again, I noticed something I've wanted to ask for a long time now.
What's with the Crater Lake? You know, the book tells about some big
things floating above Teserelenestéa (I hope I got that right...),
spirits and elementals sprinting around, traces of Orichalcum found from
the water and Tir army sealing off the whole area. What's this? Have the
elves found Atlantis or something...?

So pointers for the sourcebooks that would give the whole story would be
appreciated. Or is this some ED-link again that needs familiarity with
that game to open up? If so, could somebody tell me the story behind all
of this?

Thanks.

- J. Karonen
Message no. 29
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:51:06 +0300
I think my question got lost in the post dump last weekend, so I'm
trying again...

- - from the original post:

And now on to the topic. It's been some time since the last time I
needed Tir Tairngire sourcebook, but now that I had to uncover it
again, I noticed something I've wanted to ask for a long time now.

What's with the Crater Lake? You know, the book tells about some big
things floating above Teserelenestéa (I hope I got that right...),
spirits and elementals sprinting around, traces of Orichalcum found from
the water and Tir army sealing off the whole area. What's this? Have the
elves found Atlantis or something...?

So pointers to the sourcebooks that would give the whole story would be
appreciated. Or is this some ED-link again that needs familiarity with
that game to open up? If so, could someone tell me the story behind all
of this?

Thanks.

J. Karonen
Message no. 30
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 04:56:16 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 4:52:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:

>
> What's with the Crater Lake? You know, the book tells about some big
> things floating above Teserelenestéa (I hope I got that right...),
> spirits and elementals sprinting around, traces of Orichalcum found from
> the water and Tir army sealing off the whole area. What's this? Have the
> elves found Atlantis or something...?
>
> So pointers to the sourcebooks that would give the whole story would be
> appreciated. Or is this some ED-link again that needs familiarity with
> that game to open up? If so, could someone tell me the story behind all
> of this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> J. Karonen


As far as I know, ED's Barsaive, with nearby sunken Atlantis (Atlantis was
not Thera, alas, or is that fortunately?), was located in Russia.

Honestly, I don't recall where Crater Lake was mentioned other than the Tir
book and, IIRC, some mentions in SR3. It might have been in a shadowtalk for
a target book, but I can't recall.




-Twist
Message no. 31
From: Arcaist arcaist@*****.de
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:37:30 +0200
> As far as I know, ED's Barsaive, with nearby sunken Atlantis
> (Atlantis was not Thera, alas, or is that fortunately?), was
> located in Russia.

Yup. Thera is/was the Island of Thira (which today is also known as
Santorin and belongs to Greece). A volcano destroyed most of Thira at
around 2000 BC (IIRC). I don't know of there's a real connection between
Atlantis and ED (of course, Thira could have been Atlantis, but that
would be pure guessing, as the term "Atlantis" is never mentioned in ED)

--
Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de
Message no. 32
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:41:52 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 10:36:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
arcaist@*****.de writes:

> > As far as I know, ED's Barsaive, with nearby sunken Atlantis
> > (Atlantis was not Thera, alas, or is that fortunately?), was
> > located in Russia.
>
> Yup. Thera is/was the Island of Thira (which today is also known as
> Santorin and belongs to Greece). A volcano destroyed most of Thira at
> around 2000 BC (IIRC). I don't know of there's a real connection between
> Atlantis and ED (of course, Thira could have been Atlantis, but that
> would be pure guessing, as the term "Atlantis" is never mentioned in ED)


There's no connection between Thera in ED and Thira IRL, from what I remember
of ED. Rather, there is mention in the ED books of an island of great magic
that sunk long ago. This is supposed to be Atlantis, apparently, but in CT I
believe they are referring to Thera, which in SR gets mistaken for Atlantis a
LOT. (Seen one island of incredible magic, you've seen them all. :-)




-Twist
"Soylent Green: Melts in your mouth, not in your hand."
Message no. 33
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:06:16 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 10:44:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> There's no connection between Thera in ED and Thira IRL, from what I
remember
> of ED. Rather, there is mention in the ED books of an island of great
magic
> that sunk long ago. This is supposed to be Atlantis, apparently, but in
CT
> I
> believe they are referring to Thera, which in SR gets mistaken for
Atlantis
> a
> LOT. (Seen one island of incredible magic, you've seen them all. :-)

Thera of ED is indeed Thera the isle that might be Atlantis. There is no
mention of the "sinking isle" in any ED stuff. The Death Sea is just a sea
filled with lava.

As for Crater Lake, it is mentioned in Worlds Without End; from all
indications, it is/was a mana-spike allowing the Horrors to come through,
hence building a barrier to prevent such.
Message no. 34
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:49:49 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com
>
>
>As far as I know, ED's Barsaive, with nearby sunken Atlantis (Atlantis was
>not Thera, alas, or is that fortunately?), was located in Russia.

That's funny. The old Greek island (called Thera in acient times) is
considered by some to be the inspiration for Atlantis. (Thera went the way
of Pompeii BTW).


Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 35
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:56:30 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 11:23:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> Thera of ED is indeed Thera the isle that might be Atlantis. There is no
> mention of the "sinking isle" in any ED stuff. The Death Sea is just a sea

> filled with lava.


I could have sworn there was. But, you are my resident ED expert, so I defer
to you.




-Twist
"ACTS"
Message no. 36
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:13:53 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/1999 9:36:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
arcaist@*****.de writes:

>
> Yup. Thera is/was the Island of Thira (which today is also known as
> Santorin and belongs to Greece). A volcano destroyed most of Thira at
> around 2000 BC (IIRC). I don't know of there's a real connection between
> Atlantis and ED (of course, Thira could have been Atlantis, but that
> would be pure guessing, as the term "Atlantis" is never mentioned in ED)

*AND* given the storyline of the ED/SR tournament at Gencon last year, I
would say *THIS* is the closest thing to the answer.

-K
Message no. 37
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:09:30 +0300
Schizi@***.com wrote:

>As for Crater Lake, it is mentioned in Worlds Without End; from all
>indications, it is/was a mana-spike allowing the Horrors to come
through,
>hence building a barrier to prevent such.

Ok, thanks!

And I have to add that I knew of one referance to Crater Lake myself
before asking. It's mentioned in the last chapter of Mob War! as being a
part of the Ring of Fire, which makes perfect sense.

BTW. Let's say I'm interested in IE's and in all the other
ED-SR-crossover-stuff as well. Which novels -Earthdawn or Shadowrun-
should I read?

- J. Karonen
Message no. 38
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:42:56 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 12:29:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:

>
> BTW. Let's say I'm interested in IE's and in all the other
> ED-SR-crossover-stuff as well. Which novels -Earthdawn or Shadowrun-
> should I read?
>
> - J. Karonen
>


Offhand, I'd say: House of the Sun, the DHS trilogy (::gurgle::), Worlds
Without End (too bad they never published the ED prequels; I wanted to know
what Aina did that was so terrible), Never Trust An Elf, Black Madonna
(?????). It feels like there should be more of them, though. And I doubt
Black Madonna (since you'd have to include Technobabel as well then, and Leo,
while a liar, isn't confirmed as an IE, is he?).

Interestingly, the most over-looked link to ED is the adventure Ivy & Chrome,
wherein the Azzies first make contact with their "gods".

Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were published, but only in
France.



-Twist
Message no. 39
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@********.warande.uu.nl
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:49:18 +0200
>*AND* given the storyline of the ED/SR tournament at Gencon last year, I
>would say *THIS* is the closest thing to the answer.

Can you tell us more about that?

VrGr David

"Shapes of angels the night casts lie dead but dreaming in my past and
they're here, they want to meet you, they want to play with you, so take
the dream."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")
Message no. 40
From: David Cordy DCordy@****.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:07:04 -0700
> That's funny. The old Greek island (called Thera in acient times) is
> considered by some to be the inspiration for Atlantis. (Thera went the
> way
> of Pompeii BTW).
>
I know that the people of Pompeii were buried in ash, but I thought that the
residents of Thera were blown into the stratosphere (along with most of the
island) when the volcano/island exploded. Or am I thinking of some place
else?

> Geoff Haacke
>
DavidC
Message no. 41
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:00:16 -0700
At 09:49 7/28/99 -0600, Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
>>From: Twist0059@***.com
>>As far as I know, ED's Barsaive, with nearby sunken Atlantis (Atlantis was
>>not Thera, alas, or is that fortunately?), was located in Russia.
>
>That's funny. The old Greek island (called Thera in acient times) is
>considered by some to be the inspiration for Atlantis. (Thera went the way
>of Pompeii BTW).

Pompeii was just buried... Thera/Santorini *exploded*. Santorini
is about three or four islands right now...

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 42
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:48:26 -0700
At 11:06 7/28/99 -0400, Schizi@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 7/28/99 10:44:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Twist0059@***.com writes:
>>There's no connection between Thera in ED and Thira IRL, from what I remember
>>of ED. Rather, there is mention in the ED books of an island of great magic
>>that sunk long ago. This is supposed to be Atlantis, apparently, but in CT I
>>believe they are referring to Thera, which in SR gets mistaken for Atlantis a
>>LOT. (Seen one island of incredible magic, you've seen them all. :-)

>Thera of ED is indeed Thera the isle that might be Atlantis. There is no
>mention of the "sinking isle" in any ED stuff. The Death Sea is just a sea
>filled with lava.

...and which corresponds to the Black Sea. Thera is obviously being
set up to be an Atlantis: all that profligate use of magic to make
floating buildings... and when the magic goes away, it will literally
fall. Did the Theran Empire book mention anything about the place
being a volcano? I could just imagine them putting up big enchantments
to keep it from erupting, then the whole mountain explodes shortly after
the floating buildings go crashing into the ground...

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "This episode of Sorcery Street was brought to you by the letter Omega, %%
%% the number 13, and the element of Air." - me %%
Message no. 43
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 99 11:20:44 +700
>And I have to add that I knew of one referance to Crater Lake myself
>before asking. It's mentioned in the last chapter of Mob War! as being a
>part of the Ring of Fire, which makes perfect sense.
>
>BTW. Let's say I'm interested in IE's and in all the other
>ED-SR-crossover-stuff as well. Which novels -Earthdawn or Shadowrun-
>should I read?

This brings up a counter point. Let's say I'm not interested in this Earthdawn
stuff whatsoever and want nothing to do with it. Will there be any published
Shadowrun books that will have stuff that requires me to be fluent in Earthdawn
material?
Message no. 44
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:35:29 -0700
At 11:20 7/28/99 +0700, Arcady wrote:
>This brings up a counter point. Let's say I'm not interested in this Earthdawn
>stuff whatsoever and want nothing to do with it. Will there be any published
>Shadowrun books that will have stuff that requires me to be fluent in Earthdawn
>material?

No. All the SR stuff stands on its own fairly well. The ED stuff makes
sense of some of the things that are referenced, but if you don't need
solutions to all your mysteries, you don't need any ED material for
SR. Even the Tir Tairngire sourcebook, which probably has the highest
level of ED references of any of them, stands just fine without them.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 45
From: Robert Blackberg Robert.Blackberg@***.fiserv.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:37:17 -0400
>>> "Arcady" <arcady@***.net> 07/28/99 12:20AM >>>
This brings up a counter point. Let's say I'm not interested in this Earthdawn
stuff whatsoever and want nothing to do with it. Will there be any published
Shadowrun books that will have stuff that requires me to be fluent in Earthdawn
material?




Did Mike M. just scream in rage and pain? :)

Robert (no cool tagline, just a plain line____________________)
Message no. 46
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:49:49 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 2:21:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, arcady@***.net
writes:

> This brings up a counter point. Let's say I'm not interested in this
> Earthdawn
> stuff whatsoever and want nothing to do with it. Will there be any
published
> Shadowrun books that will have stuff that requires me to be fluent in
> Earthdawn
> material?
>


If anything, not knowing the ED mythology makes SR a scarier place. ED had
the tendancy to feel like silly fantasy, even if it was a good game system by
itself.



-Twist
Message no. 47
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:51:35 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 11:59:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
knight_errant30@*******.com writes:

> That's funny. The old Greek island (called Thera in acient times) is
> considered by some to be the inspiration for Atlantis. (Thera went the
way
> of Pompeii BTW).
Actually, wouldn't it be Pompeii going the way of Thera, given the time
frame? :-)
Message no. 48
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:59:23 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 12:29:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:

> BTW. Let's say I'm interested in IE's and in all the other
> ED-SR-crossover-stuff as well. Which novels -Earthdawn or Shadowrun-
> should I read?
>
Earthdawn novels had no real connection, unless you're French and have access
to the prequels to Worlds-without-end.
For SR, teh novels that come to mind are; Never trust an elf, Worlds
without end, Black Madonna, Nosferatu (a little)
not, I did not much like W-w-E, nor Black Maddonna (I actually think I hated
Black Madona the most of all SR novels)
For Sourcebooks; ED; Blood Wood, Thera (it has some info more general) and
a few of the other ones (I miss my Shivilahalla Syrtis, maybe I'll bring her
into SR :-)
SR; the adventure Dark Angel, Aztlan, Threats
these are teh ones I remember off hand
Message no. 49
From: Quindrael D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:23:47 +0200
>and Leo, while a liar, isn't confirmed as an IE, is he?).

I think he is. There's an elf in Skypoint&Vivane who really could be him,
because Leo probably is "Brightlight" and the elf in S&V is also into some
light-magic I believe (and even has a name with an "L", IIRC - too long ago
I read it).

>Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were published, but only in
>France.

And Germany, thoug OOP now. Still trying to get those...

VrGr David

"A blind moon over to the window, where the night has become elizium for
the sleepless souls and our days to come."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "At the gates of silent memory")

mailto:alamais@***.nl for regular mail
mailto:D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl if your mail has any large
attachments
Message no. 50
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:45:22 -0400
On 28 Jul 99, at 11:20, Arcady wrote:

> >And I have to add that I knew of one referance to Crater Lake myself
> >before asking. It's mentioned in the last chapter of Mob War! as being a
> >part of the Ring of Fire, which makes perfect sense.
> >
> >BTW. Let's say I'm interested in IE's and in all the other
> >ED-SR-crossover-stuff as well. Which novels -Earthdawn or Shadowrun-
> >should I read?
>
> This brings up a counter point. Let's say I'm not interested in this
> Earthdawn stuff whatsoever and want nothing to do with it. Will there be
> any published Shadowrun books that will have stuff that requires me to be
> fluent in Earthdawn material?

I would say no. I ask Lou Prosperi one time about the ED-SR
link. ED came about because FASA wanted to do a fantasy
game. The link actually developed much later. I find it amazing
that they've managed to pull off what they have, apparently
without trying. But, especially now that FASA discontinued
ED I don't think that you'll ever be "required" to know any ED
material,.. it's just neat when you do. :-)

---
Don't wake me for the end of the world unless
it has very good special effects.
-- Merlin son of Corwin,
Prince of Chaos, by Roger Zelazny
Message no. 51
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:58:56 -0400
On 28 Jul 99, at 4:56, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> As far as I know, ED's Barsaive, with nearby sunken Atlantis (Atlantis was
> not Thera, alas, or is that fortunately?), was located in Russia.

Barsaive is in Russia. It covers the area that would be south of
Kijev (or include it) and include Kharkov, it might include areas
as far north as Minsk, then east past,Volgograd. The Volga
river empties into the Caspian sea, that sea is one of the
borders of Barsiave on the east. I think the Ural river (I'm
looking at an OLD globe) is probably the eastern border of
Barsaive. Thera is an island that would be just north of Crete.
For what it's worth. :-)
---
If you hit a mime with a brick, does it make a sound?
-- Smilin' Jack in a Zen moment.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 52
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:12:19 -0400
On 28 Jul 99, at 12:42, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were published, but only in
> France.

I thought it was Germany,.. I've got a friend over there now
looking for them :-(


---
'I could have done that!' you say. But you didn't,
and that makes all the difference.
-- Douglas Adams


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 53
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:16:30 -0400
On 28 Jul 99, at 14:49, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> If anything, not knowing the ED mythology makes SR a scarier place. ED
> had the tendancy to feel like silly fantasy, even if it was a good game
> system by itself.

Silly Fantasy??? Now why on earth would you say that? It's
not any sillier than spell slinging elves with cybereyes in 2060?


---
Where in the Nine Hells did you ever get the idea that
I would fight fair?
--Drizzt Do'Urden, in The Crystal Shard,
by R.A. Salvatore


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 54
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:20:34 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/1999 12:11:12 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
d.n.m.vannederveen@********.warande.uu.nl writes:

> >*AND* given the storyline of the ED/SR tournament at Gencon last year, I
> >would say *THIS* is the closest thing to the answer.
>
> Can you tell us more about that?

It was something that happened between Alamais hording a big pile of magic
items in the ED game, and Lofwyr trying to beat his brother to reclaiming
them in the SR timeline.

Granite, you were one of bigwigs with that, tell us more if you could.

-K (PLEASE!!! ;-PPPPP)
Message no. 55
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:24:21 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/1999 1:21:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
arcady@***.net writes:

> >BTW. Let's say I'm interested in IE's and in all the other
> >ED-SR-crossover-stuff as well. Which novels -Earthdawn or Shadowrun-
> >should I read?
>
> This brings up a counter point. Let's say I'm not interested in this
> Earthdawn
> stuff whatsoever and want nothing to do with it. Will there be any
published
> Shadowrun books that will have stuff that requires me to be fluent in
> Earthdawn
> material?

Not any longer ...

-K
Message no. 56
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:44:13 +1000
> > That's funny. The old Greek island (called Thera in acient times) is
> > considered by some to be the inspiration for Atlantis. (Thera went the
> > way
> > of Pompeii BTW).
> >
> I know that the people of Pompeii were buried in ash, but I thought that
the
> residents of Thera were blown into the stratosphere (along with most of
the
> island) when the volcano/island exploded. Or am I thinking of some place
> else?

I just realised I left out Thera, which is what the post was all about.

Thera went up in 1627/28 B.C. It's VEI was 6. The magma chamber below
Thera is estimated to have been about 5 times the size of Krakatau's. The
volcanic eruption is seen as the primary reason for the fall of the Minoan
civilisation, which at the time occupied much of the Aegean Sea, which was a
hub of technology and marine commerce. Thera is today called Santorini. Its
steep cliffs are remnants of the volcano's rim, and the harbor is actually
its flooded interior. The eruption left the volcano hollow inside, and when
it collapsed some time later the waters of the Aegean rushed into the
cavity. Rebounding when they hit bottom, they caused a tsunami or tidal
wave. A tsunami caused by an earthquake in Chile in 1960 was still
thirty-five feet high when it reached Hawaii. It is estimated that the
Santorini tidal wave started at a comparable height and was still twenty-two
feet tall when it reached the shore of what is today Israel. This would have
destroyed the low-lying coastal settlements of Crete, where the Minoan
civilisation was based. Knossos (the Minoan capital) was shattered by a
succession of earthquakes that preceded or accompanied the eruption.
Santorini is now 4 small islands.

Some ancient Minoan writings suggest that there may have been a city at the
summit of Thera. Seen as a center of learning and other things, it is quite
possible that it is the basis for Atlantis. There was definitely a town at
it's base, called Akrotiri, which has been at least partially excavated.

Most importantly it was the eruption of the island itself that is the
biggest clue. No other event could have been massive enough to destroy an
entire island. Plato talks of the destruction of Atlantis happening 9000
years before his day. One theory suggests that the original legend that the
Egyptians read may have been written in a language that the Minoans used
called Linear A. In Linear A, the symbol used for 100 and the one used for
1000 differ only slightly. A simple mistake would have introduced an error
factor of 10, putting the destruction of Atlantis not 9000 years before
Plato, but 900 years before, which coincides with the eruption of Thera.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scattered showers my ass... - Noah
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 57
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:00:00 +1000
Slipspeed writes:
> cavity. Rebounding when they hit bottom, they caused a tsunami or tidal
> wave. A tsunami caused by an earthquake in Chile in 1960 was still
> thirty-five feet high when it reached Hawaii. It is estimated that the
> Santorini tidal wave started at a comparable height and was still
> twenty-two
> feet tall when it reached the shore of what is today Israel. This
> would have
> destroyed the low-lying coastal settlements of Crete, where the Minoan
> civilisation was based. Knossos (the Minoan capital) was shattered by a
> succession of earthquakes that preceded or accompanied the eruption.
> Santorini is now 4 small islands.

The resultant tsunami also managed to lower the level of the Red Sea
sufficiently (and for a long enough time) that a bunch of Jewish refugees
leaving Egypt managed to get across. If you want an impression of the Theran
eruption as seen from a few thousand kilometers away, go and read Exodus.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 58
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:46:08 -0400
On 29 Jul 99, at 13:44, Slipspeed wrote:

> Most importantly it was the eruption of the island itself that is the
> biggest clue. No other event could have been massive enough to destroy an
> entire island. Plato talks of the destruction of Atlantis happening 9000
> years before his day. One theory suggests that the original legend that
> the Egyptians read may have been written in a language that the Minoans
> used called Linear A. In Linear A, the symbol used for 100 and the one
> used for 1000 differ only slightly. A simple mistake would have introduced
> an error factor of 10, putting the destruction of Atlantis not 9000 years
> before Plato, but 900 years before, which coincides with the eruption of
> Thera.

Now that was interesting. I'd never heard all of that before.
Thanks for the lesson. :-)
---
When Fate taps you on the shoulder, you'd best pay
attention. Unfortunately, she has that blasted habit
of tapping you on the opposite shoulder, so that when
you turn around she's actually on your other side,
giggling like a schoolgirl. I hate that.
-- Harlequin, Immortal Elf,
from Harlequin's Back, A Shadowrun Adventure,
from FASA Corporation.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 59
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:58:19 +1000
> > cavity. Rebounding when they hit bottom, they caused a tsunami or tidal
> > wave. A tsunami caused by an earthquake in Chile in 1960 was still
> > thirty-five feet high when it reached Hawaii. It is estimated that the
> > Santorini tidal wave started at a comparable height and was still
> > twenty-two
> > feet tall when it reached the shore of what is today Israel. This
> > would have
> > destroyed the low-lying coastal settlements of Crete, where the Minoan
> > civilisation was based. Knossos (the Minoan capital) was shattered by a
> > succession of earthquakes that preceded or accompanied the eruption.
> > Santorini is now 4 small islands.
>
> The resultant tsunami also managed to lower the level of the Red Sea
> sufficiently (and for a long enough time) that a bunch of Jewish refugees
> leaving Egypt managed to get across. If you want an impression of the
Theran
> eruption as seen from a few thousand kilometers away, go and read Exodus.

That comment started me on a hunt...

The Theran explosion caused...

-The destruction of the Minoans.
-The (possible) destruction of Atlantis.
-A few greeks on the southern tip of Greece decided at about that time that
they might prefer to live a little further west (after having your village
washed away by the volcano, I'd want to move too) and decided to settle on
the next penisula west, about halfway up the western side... Later to be
called Rome and be the greatest empire to date in Europe.
-An Egyptian pharoah was threatened with plagues of insects, rains of fire
etc... The insects probably detected the explosion and decided to head south
for the winter at great speed (I'd be running scared like a scared person
too, if I knew what it was about). The rain of fire was likely fallout from
the volcano. As you stated, the tsunami, it's forerunner as the ocean
retreated, or it's aftereffect allowed a few jews to escape across the Red
Sea.
-The Sea Peoples were uprooted at about this time and driven east by
northern invaders. Their civilisations were apparently weakened by
earthquakes and walls of high water. The Sea Peoples (which include the
Philistines) ended up sacking Troy, toppling the Hittite civilisation,
laying waste to Syro-Palestine and unsuccessfully attacking the Nile Delta.
Oh, and they allowed a few jews in their later years to settle at a place
called Canaan after driving them from the coast. Later called Israel.
-The Phoenician civilisation at about this time because of the weakening of
several older peoples on the eastern shore of the mediterranean.

Meddlesome volcano, eh? Definitely a pivotal point of ancient history.
Quite a lot of modern civilisation wouldn't be here if it hadn't erupted
when it did.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scattered showers my ass... - Noah
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 60
From: Quindrael D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:31:56 +0200
>Barsaive is in Russia.

Extra sidenote: Wyrmwood loosely translates into Chernobyl...

VrGr David

"A blind moon over to the window, where the night has become elizium for
the sleepless souls and our days to come."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "At the gates of silent memory")

mailto:alamais@***.nl for regular mail
mailto:D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl if your mail has any large
attachments
Message no. 61
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:32:30 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 9:15:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

> > If anything, not knowing the ED mythology makes SR a scarier place. ED
> > had the tendancy to feel like silly fantasy, even if it was a good game
> > system by itself.
>
> Silly Fantasy??? Now why on earth would you say that? It's
> not any sillier than spell slinging elves with cybereyes in 2060?
>

Shadowrun has fantasy elements, but they never become the kind of Willow/D&D
nonsense that ED tried to incorporate. Cyberpunk and fantasy and a kind of
magical realism blending together is an incredible vision, and I appreciate
that from FASA. ED was silly because it took the generic fantasy route and
lost most of the potential it could have had.






-Twist
Message no. 62
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:33:14 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 9:29:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

> > Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were published, but only in
> > France.
>
> I thought it was Germany,.. I've got a friend over there now
> looking for them :-(


Apparently it's both, but I've only heard of the French version myself.



-Twist
Message no. 63
From: Kismet kismet_sr@*****.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 07:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
--- "Darrell L. Bowman"
<darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us> wrote:
> On 28 Jul 99, at 12:42, Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>
> > Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were
> published, but only in
> > France.
>
> I thought it was Germany,.. I've got a friend over
> there now
> looking for them :-(
>
>
Why would Fasa do that? Isn't their largest customer
base in the U.S.? It just doesn't make good business
sense to me. If you wanted to make a profit on a book,
wouldn't you sell it in a place where more people will
want to buy it? Can someone explain the reasoning
behind this?

Kismet
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com
Message no. 64
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:19:51 +1000
At 07:17 29/07/99 -0700 Kismet wrote
>> > Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were
>> published, but only in
>> > France.
>>
>> I thought it was Germany,.. I've got a friend over
>> there now
>> looking for them :-(
>>
>>
>Why would Fasa do that?

Maybe because they only made sense in a
language _other_ than English, which is
exactly what Worlds Without End was like.

That book just plain sucked...

__________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
__________________________________
Message no. 65
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@********.warande.uu.nl
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:33:28 +0200
>Why would Fasa do that? Isn't their largest customer
>base in the U.S.? It just doesn't make good business
>sense to me. If you wanted to make a profit on a book,
>wouldn't you sell it in a place where more people will
>want to buy it? Can someone explain the reasoning
>behind this?

Fasa didn't publish it in these countries, their licensees did. Very
easily: publishing it in the USA would probably have cost FASA more than it
would have earned them. Getting money from their licensees just earns them
money.
Apperently the licensees thought they could make money out of it in their
respective homelands.
And sometimes a game can be bigger in another country than in the USA,
because, although the country is smaller, there might be less competition
(although there are _many_ German RPG's both original and translations, so
I think this isn't the case there).

VrGr David

"Shapes of angels the night casts lie dead but dreaming in my past and
they're here, they want to meet you, they want to play with you, so take
the dream."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")
Message no. 66
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:23:30 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Robert Watkins wrote:

> The resultant tsunami also managed to lower the level of the Red Sea
> sufficiently (and for a long enough time) that a bunch of Jewish refugees
> leaving Egypt managed to get across. If you want an impression of the Theran
> eruption as seen from a few thousand kilometers away, go and read Exodus.

The concurrent presence of a massive volcanic eruption gives a
whole new meaning to "pillar of smoke by day, pillar of fire by night"
too, doesn't it? ;)

Marc
Message no. 67
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:53:52 CST
>From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>
>Pompeii was just buried... Thera/Santorini *exploded*. Santorini
>is about three or four islands right now...
>

D'oh!! Sorry, I knew that too....

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 68
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:14:22 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/99 11:04:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
slothman@*********.org writes:

> Pompeii was just buried... Thera/Santorini *exploded*. Santorini
> is about three or four islands right now...

but the net result is the same: "destroyed by Volcanic Activity"
Message no. 69
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:42:57 -0500
In a message dated 7/28/99 9:29:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

>> > Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were published, but only in
>> > France.
>>
>> I thought it was Germany,.. I've got a friend over there now
>> looking for them :-(

>Apparently it's both, but I've only heard of the French version myself.

All I want to know is whose gonna translate it for me!
Message no. 70
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:02:34 -0700
At 14:14 7/29/99 -0400, Starrngr@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 7/28/99 11:04:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>slothman@*********.org writes:
>
>> Pompeii was just buried... Thera/Santorini *exploded*. Santorini
>> is about three or four islands right now...
>
>but the net result is the same: "destroyed by Volcanic Activity"

The net result is quite different. Pompeii could be excavated for
a great deal of useful information. Blowing something up makes it a lot
harder for the archaeologists to figure things out three thousand years
later...

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 71
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:31:01 CST
>From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>
>The net result is quite different. Pompeii could be excavated for
>a great deal of useful information. Blowing something up makes it a lot
>harder for the archaeologists to figure things out three thousand years
>later...

I heard that they HAVE tried to excavate Thera.



Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 72
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:40:56 -0700
At 18:31 7/29/99 -0600, Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
>>From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>
>>The net result is quite different. Pompeii could be excavated for
>>a great deal of useful information. Blowing something up makes it a lot
>>harder for the archaeologists to figure things out three thousand years
>>later...
>
>I heard that they HAVE tried to excavate Thera.

Really? Did they manage to find lots of intact frescoes and statues?
Pompeii was a real treasure trove of data... the Las Vegas of the
Roman Empire...

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 73
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:11:33 +1000
> >I heard that they HAVE tried to excavate Thera.
>
> Really? Did they manage to find lots of intact frescoes and statues?
> Pompeii was a real treasure trove of data... the Las Vegas of the
> Roman Empire...

Yes, they have. At least one town at the base of Santorini/Thera. It's
name is Akrotiri. Do a web search (I used http://infoseek.go.com ) for
"Akrotiri" and you'll get good results. Plenty of pics, and a lot of
information.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scattered showers my ass... - Noah
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 74
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:46:06 -0400
On 29 Jul 99, at 4:32, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> > > If anything, not knowing the ED mythology makes SR a scarier place.
> > > ED
> > > had the tendancy to feel like silly fantasy, even if it was a good
> > > game system by itself.
> >
> > Silly Fantasy??? Now why on earth would you say that? It's
> > not any sillier than spell slinging elves with cybereyes in 2060?
> >
>
> Shadowrun has fantasy elements, but they never become the kind of
> Willow/D&D nonsense that ED tried to incorporate. Cyberpunk and fantasy
> and a kind of magical realism blending together is an incredible vision,
> and I appreciate that from FASA. ED was silly because it took the generic
> fantasy route and lost most of the potential it could have had.

Generic? Boy,.. I'd like to see this post on the ED list. The
use of the Scourge, the Horrors, and all is, as far as I know,
new. Add in the scorcers for a mundane threat, the Therans
for a military opposition. The dragons for their,.. well for being
dragons. Most systems don't use dragons and intelligent
beings like ED does too.

I don't see generic here.

---
Evolution is proven by people who're too stupid to live.
-- Archangel


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 75
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:18:39 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/99 12:44:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

> Generic? Boy,.. I'd like to see this post on the ED list. The
> use of the Scourge, the Horrors, and all is, as far as I know,
> new. Add in the scorcers for a mundane threat, the Therans
> for a military opposition. The dragons for their,.. well for being
> dragons. Most systems don't use dragons and intelligent
> beings like ED does too.
>

The Scourge and the Horrors were the only original things I found in ED, and
those were tied to SR. All of the independant ED threads read like AD&D.
Magicians are common in fantasy RPGs, Therans are your typical oppressive
ruling state, and dragons have been around for eternity. You come to ED from
SR expecting a dangerous and dark past of great magic, and end up in a mock
AD&D game. Or worse, the Windlings appear and suddenly you're in Willow.




-Twist
Message no. 76
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:05:38 EDT
In a message dated 7/28/1999 11:55:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
atreloar@*********.com writes:

> The resultant tsunami also managed to lower the level of the Red Sea
> > sufficiently (and for a long enough time) that a bunch of Jewish refugees
> > leaving Egypt managed to get across. If you want an impression of the
> Theran
> > eruption as seen from a few thousand kilometers away, go and read Exodus.
>
> That comment started me on a hunt...

Oh goodie, I LOVE Hunts'....

> The Theran explosion caused...
>
> -The destruction of the Minoans.

Sure...

> -The (possible) destruction of Atlantis.

Okay...

> -A few greeks on the southern tip of Greece decided at about that time that
> they might prefer to live a little further west (after having your village
> washed away by the volcano, I'd want to move too) and decided to settle on
> the next penisula west, about halfway up the western side... Later to be
> called Rome and be the greatest empire to date in Europe.

I like this little twist actually, and if not true, a VERY cool way of
connecting the timeline of supermechanics....

> -An Egyptian pharoah was threatened with plagues of insects, rains of fire
> etc... The insects probably detected the explosion and decided to head
south
> for the winter at great speed (I'd be running scared like a scared person
> too, if I knew what it was about). The rain of fire was likely fallout
from
> the volcano. As you stated, the tsunami, it's forerunner as the ocean
> retreated, or it's aftereffect allowed a few jews to escape across the Red
> Sea.

Interesting idea, the only problem is that the timing involved would be
*awfully* quick. I don't know exactly where the crossing of the slaves
occurred, but it would have to be someplace shallow enough and narrow enough
for this to happen, and yet have a possible effect.

Anyone know more about Tsunami/Tidal powers with regards to Tidal Retreat and
Recovery?

> -The Sea Peoples were uprooted at about this time and driven east by
> northern invaders. Their civilisations were apparently weakened by
> earthquakes and walls of high water. The Sea Peoples (which include the
> Philistines) ended up sacking Troy, toppling the Hittite civilisation,
> laying waste to Syro-Palestine and unsuccessfully attacking the Nile Delta.
> Oh, and they allowed a few jews in their later years to settle at a place
> called Canaan after driving them from the coast. Later called Israel.

You have a twisted, but thinking, mind....I Like it...

> -The Phoenician civilisation at about this time because of the weakening of
> several older peoples on the eastern shore of the mediterranean.
>
> Meddlesome volcano, eh? Definitely a pivotal point of ancient history.
> Quite a lot of modern civilisation wouldn't be here if it hadn't erupted
> when it did.
>
I think some of the ideas are a bit far-fetched, but from a fictional, game
mechanics' POV, very nice....

-K
Message no. 77
From: Arcaist arcaist@*****.de
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:21:03 +0200
> The Scourge and the Horrors were the only original things I found in
ED, and
> those were tied to SR.

Wasn't the SR timeline tied to ED?

> All of the independant ED threads read like AD&D.
> Magicians are common in fantasy RPGs, Therans are your typical
> oppressive ruling state, and dragons have been around for eternity.
> You come to ED from SR expecting a dangerous and dark past of
> great magic, and end up in a mock AD&D game. Or worse, the
> Windlings appear and suddenly you're in Willow.

If you break it down to this, every fantasy system is the same, cause
certain clichés just are necessary for fantasy to "work" (if it lacked
these elements, I would even hesitate to call it "true" fantasy). In
other words: name a fantasy system that hasn't these clichés hidden
somewhere in it's background.

--
Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de
Message no. 78
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:27:05
At 04:21 PM 7/30/99 +0200, you wrote:
>> All of the independant ED threads read like AD&D.
>> Magicians are common in fantasy RPGs, Therans are your typical
>> oppressive ruling state, and dragons have been around for eternity.
>> You come to ED from SR expecting a dangerous and dark past of
>> great magic, and end up in a mock AD&D game. Or worse, the
>> Windlings appear and suddenly you're in Willow.


It all depends on your GM. When AdamG ran ED, it was a scary, twisted
world. The Horrors and their minions rocked us good. Then, we'd go back
to SR, thinking it would be safer, and the guy with the Hunted flaw would
be lazed from space.

--The Hamm
"What do you mean roll against 28D damage with 12 successes?!?!"
-Toredor Rigger/Conjuring Adept
Message no. 79
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:49:20 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/99 12:27:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ljvance@*******.edu writes:

> The Horrors and their minions rocked us good. Then, we'd go back
> to SR, thinking it would be safer, and the guy with the Hunted flaw would
> be lazed from space.

Yeah, I had two players take the hunted flaw, even though I specifically
warned them "this will be a very dangerous flaw".
So far, they have not figured out exactly how much their enemies have
fragged with them, wait until things start exploding. :-)
Message no. 80
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:01:10
At 12:49 PM 7/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/30/99 12:27:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>ljvance@*******.edu writes:
>
>> The Horrors and their minions rocked us good. Then, we'd go back
>> to SR, thinking it would be safer, and the guy with the Hunted flaw would
>> be lazed from space.
>
>Yeah, I had two players take the hunted flaw, even though I specifically
>warned them "this will be a very dangerous flaw".
> So far, they have not figured out exactly how much their enemies have
>fragged with them, wait until things start exploding. :-)

Heh. If you've got Harlequin, you can always take hints from that, and
make things happen around them that require oodles of time, money,
equiptment, and Karma to get out of, with little or no payoff (except for
the karma side). People tend to get real desperate when they've run out of
money.

--The Hamm
"I step on his toy car and throw the broken pieces in his face."
-Terdal, Elf Samurai
"Ok, his brother shoots you."
-GM
Message no. 81
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:29:33 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/99 11:45:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
arcaist@*****.de writes:

> > The Scourge and the Horrors were the only original things I found in
> ED, and
> > those were tied to SR.
>
> Wasn't the SR timeline tied to ED?


Well, no, I meant my players started playing ED after HB. They got there and
didn't find the universe too interesting aside from more information on the
Horrors.




-Twist
Message no. 82
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:32:27 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/99 11:45:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
arcaist@*****.de writes:

>
> If you break it down to this, every fantasy system is the same, cause
> certain clichés just are necessary for fantasy to "work" (if it
lacked
> these elements, I would even hesitate to call it "true" fantasy). In
> other words: name a fantasy system that hasn't these clichés hidden
> somewhere in it's background.
>
> --
> Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de


What I expected from ED was the same genre-transcending brillance of SR. SR
isn't fantasy anymore than it's cyberpunk. One of the elements couldn't exist
without the other and keep SR enjoyable. The problem with ED is they took
the straight fantasy route and didn't bring anything new to the same old same
old themes of eon-old fantasy RPGs.




-Twist
Message no. 83
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:34:43 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/99 1:18:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> > The Horrors and their minions rocked us good. Then, we'd go back
> > to SR, thinking it would be safer, and the guy with the Hunted flaw
would
> > be lazed from space.
>
> Yeah, I had two players take the hunted flaw, even though I specifically
> warned them "this will be a very dangerous flaw".
> So far, they have not figured out exactly how much their enemies have
> fragged with them, wait until things start exploding. :-)
>
>
>


Hmm, mayhaps the players felt the GM would stick to the background story
which explains the Hunted Flaw? Instead of:

"Will you go down into the catacombs?"
"Yes."
"You are attacked by specters calling your name. Doesn't the Hunted Flaw
suck?"


:-)





-Twist
Message no. 84
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:50:35
At 05:34 PM 7/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/30/99 1:18:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
>writes:
>
>> > The Horrors and their minions rocked us good. Then, we'd go back
>> > to SR, thinking it would be safer, and the guy with the Hunted flaw
>would
>> > be lazed from space.
>>
>> Yeah, I had two players take the hunted flaw, even though I specifically
>> warned them "this will be a very dangerous flaw".
>> So far, they have not figured out exactly how much their enemies have
>> fragged with them, wait until things start exploding. :-)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Hmm, mayhaps the players felt the GM would stick to the background story
>which explains the Hunted Flaw? Instead of:
>
>"Will you go down into the catacombs?"
>"Yes."
>"You are attacked by specters calling your name. Doesn't the Hunted Flaw
>suck?"
>-Twist

Actually the guy in question deserved it. He had created a character with
16 points in edges, using about four or five different enemies as the main
purchasing power, and AdamG allowed it, informing him how difficult it
would be to stay alive with such a character. That was the way AG did
things. Let you do whatever you wanted, and let you know through the game
whether or not it worked.

--The Hamm
"Troll blood tastes like soap"
-Drustle, Vampire
Message no. 85
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:05:02 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/99 5:51:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ljvance@*******.edu writes:

> Actually the guy in question deserved it. He had created a character with
> 16 points in edges, using about four or five different enemies as the main
> purchasing power, and AdamG allowed it, informing him how difficult it
> would be to stay alive with such a character. That was the way AG did
> things. Let you do whatever you wanted, and let you know through the game
> whether or not it worked.
>
> --The Hamm

I didn't mean that your example was invalid, just complaining about a certain
other GM's method of using the Hunted Flaw. If a player goes through putting
in the correct edges and flaws for his backstory, it should be supported that
way, IMO.




-Twist
Message no. 86
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:32:30
At 06:05 PM 7/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/30/99 5:51:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>ljvance@*******.edu writes:
>
>> Actually the guy in question deserved it. He had created a character with
>> 16 points in edges, using about four or five different enemies as the main
>> purchasing power, and AdamG allowed it, informing him how difficult it
>> would be to stay alive with such a character. That was the way AG did
>> things. Let you do whatever you wanted, and let you know through the game
>> whether or not it worked.
>>
>> --The Hamm
>
>I didn't mean that your example was invalid, just complaining about a
certain
>other GM's method of using the Hunted Flaw. If a player goes through
putting
>in the correct edges and flaws for his backstory, it should be supported
that
>way, IMO.
>
>-Twist

I totally agree. I've seen people be smart about their enemies and also
really dumb. But it always comes back to how the GM goes after you with
them. If every person who has an enemy dies, there is no real point to
that facet of the game. I've been lucky to be with two very cool GM's for
the last few years, and both give lots of hints and help on how to create
characters and how to play to stay alive and achieve goals (not specifics,
but in general).

--The Hamm
"How many building or edge points does it cost to get a Dragon as a Buddy?"
-Dumas (that's french for . . .), Detective

Lloyd Vance
ljvance@*******.edu
(530)752-5643
"To be an artist is to fail,
as no other dare fail."
--Samuel Beckett
Message no. 87
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:33:21 -0700
A real world comment on Crater Lake. Yesterday, 28 July 1999, the Snow
Plows finished plowing the Rim Road. It is now open for traffic for the first
time since the first substantial snow fall last fall. Mind you only the road is
clear, snow drifts still exist along the road.






David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 88
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:50:32 -0400
On 30 Jul 99, at 7:18, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/30/99 12:44:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:
>
> > Generic? Boy,.. I'd like to see this post on the ED list. The
> > use of the Scourge, the Horrors, and all is, as far as I know,
> > new. Add in the scorcers for a mundane threat, the Therans
> > for a military opposition. The dragons for their,.. well for being
> > dragons. Most systems don't use dragons and intelligent beings like ED
> > does too.
> >
>
> The Scourge and the Horrors were the only original things I found in ED,
> and those were tied to SR. All of the independant ED threads read like
> AD&D. Magicians are common in fantasy RPGs, Therans are your typical
> oppressive ruling state, and dragons have been around for eternity. You
> come to ED from SR expecting a dangerous and dark past of great magic, and
> end up in a mock AD&D game. Or worse, the Windlings appear and suddenly
> you're in Willow.

What's funny is that according to Lou, they weren't tied to SR
originally, that fell together later. I still don't get it. Threads
like AD&D?? Or course magicians are common in fantasy and
dragons have been around forever, but other than SR and ED,
where have you ever seen dragons that had as much power
and smarts? I mean, if we're gonna' start comparing fantasy
systems to other fanstasy systems and saying they're all take
off's of one another, why the hell did anybody ever do anything
other than D&D? Let's face it, that's the grand daddy.


---
Always carry plenty of ammo, watch your back,
and never, ever, deal with a dragon.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 89
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:50:32 -0400
On 29 Jul 99, at 7:17, Kismet wrote:

> > > Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were
> > published, but only in
> > > France.
> >
> > I thought it was Germany,.. I've got a friend over
> > there now
> > looking for them :-(
> >
> >
> Why would Fasa do that? Isn't their largest customer
> base in the U.S.? It just doesn't make good business
> sense to me. If you wanted to make a profit on a book,
> wouldn't you sell it in a place where more people will
> want to buy it? Can someone explain the reasoning
> behind this?

I can't explain it,.. except that I'm not sure that they have total
control over what might be released overseas. I know of other
SR and ED products in Germany. My friend is currently
reading a German SR novel that I don't think has been
released in the US.

---
No wait, let me re-phrase the question... <<click>>
-- Smilin' Jack.
Message no. 90
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:18:59 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/99 6:07:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
> I didn't mean that your example was invalid, just complaining about a
> certain
> other GM's method of using the Hunted Flaw. If a player goes through
> putting
> in the correct edges and flaws for his backstory, it should be supported
> that
> way, IMO.
>
>
"A certain player"? :-)
So, Twist made a PC, some mention of a shadowy organization in the background
material. I am using the enemy option from the companion, and had an enemy
for him based on that one.
Then he also has an enemy for the Hunted flaw. in his opinion, I should
have simply tacked the hunted flaw enemy onto his other enemy (creating a
rank 6+ enemy). I just created something different, which he has no idea of.
:-)
Message no. 91
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:33:50 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/99 10:20:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> > I didn't mean that your example was invalid, just complaining about a
> > certain
> > other GM's method of using the Hunted Flaw. If a player goes through
> > putting
> > in the correct edges and flaws for his backstory, it should be
supported
> > that
> > way, IMO.
> >
> >
> "A certain player"? :-)
> So, Twist made a PC, some mention of a shadowy organization in the
> background
> material. I am using the enemy option from the companion, and had an enemy
> for him based on that one.
> Then he also has an enemy for the Hunted flaw. in his opinion, I should
> have simply tacked the hunted flaw enemy onto his other enemy (creating a
> rank 6+ enemy). I just created something different, which he has no idea
of.
>
> :-)
>


Ain't that what I said?
:-)

-Twist
Message no. 92
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 17:23:24 +1000
> > That comment started me on a hunt...

< snip >

> > Meddlesome volcano, eh? Definitely a pivotal point of ancient history.
> > Quite a lot of modern civilisation wouldn't be here if it hadn't
erupted
> > when it did.
> >
> I think some of the ideas are a bit far-fetched, but from a fictional,
game
> mechanics' POV, very nice....

I did a hunt in several encyclopaedias and on the web within a 50 year
period (accurate enough, as we're talking 1650-1600 BC) and found any
possible connections to the eruption. They're the main ones I came up with,
and seemed to have enough information to be called circumstantial evidence.
The only one that wasn't clear was the greeks moving to Italy, but it was in
the sme time period, and, as you said, it made for a cool link. : )

The rest, however, had a rather large influence from events that could be
easily linked to the eruption. While not set in stone, they lined up a
little too neatly to be discounted. Afterall, there's no other reports of
major earthquakes (that I found) in that time period and certainly no other
volcanic eruptions. The Sea Peoples were set on their marauding way by
earthquakes and tidal waves, and if the archeologists have it right, then
I'd say my educated guesses are pretty good.

But then, I'm no full blooded historian. If someone wants to think
different, go ahead, but as you said, it does make a nice, neat package for
those fatalists out there. : )

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scattered showers my ass... - Noah
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 93
From: Quindrael D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:54:09 +0200
>My friend is currently
>reading a German SR novel that I don't think has been
>released in the US.

Correct, there's a few original German novels by German authors. There's
also a few German-original sourcebooks (the English Germany sourcebook is a
translation (an redo) of the German original).
Same goes for Earthdawn: it's still going strong in Germany. That's why
they did publish the Spector and Varney novels (and maybe another), and
even will publish "Drachen" (Dragons). And maybe some original stuff in the
future.

VrGr David

"One of the universal rules of happiness is: Always be wary of any helpful
item that weighs less than its operating manual."
(Terry Pratchett - "Jingo")

mailto:alamais@***.nl for regular mail
mailto:D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl if your mail has any large
attachments
Message no. 94
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:26:46 EDT
In a message dated 8/1/99 7:58:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl writes:

>
> Correct, there's a few original German novels by German authors. There's
> also a few German-original sourcebooks (the English Germany sourcebook is a
> translation (an redo) of the German original).
> Same goes for Earthdawn: it's still going strong in Germany. That's why
> they did publish the Spector and Varney novels (and maybe another), and
> even will publish "Drachen" (Dragons). And maybe some original stuff in
the
> future.
>
> VrGr David


Varney?????




-Twist
Message no. 95
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 10:31:51 -0400
On 1 Aug 99, at 9:26, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> > Correct, there's a few original German novels by German authors.
> > There's also a few German-original sourcebooks (the English Germany
> > sourcebook is a translation (an redo) of the German original). Same
> > goes for Earthdawn: it's still going strong in Germany. That's why they
> > did publish the Spector and Varney novels (and maybe another), and even
> > will publish "Drachen" (Dragons). And maybe some original stuff in
the
> > future.
> >
> > VrGr David
>
>
> Varney?????

Yep...
http://www.detling.dorm.org/Beth&Allen/Allen/index.html

He has his novel online.

---
Thought for the day:
Bagpipes (n): an octopus wearing a kilt.
Message no. 96
From: Arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:05:04 +0200
And finally, Quindrael expressed himself by writing:

> Correct, there's a few original German novels by German authors. There's
> also a few German-original sourcebooks (the English Germany
> sourcebook is a
> translation (an redo) of the German original).

Something I don't like is Fanpro's habit to do bundles of the
translations they make. This means that most books FASA publishes
arrive here about half a year later... and when they do it faster
(SR3D was released in october AFAIK), the product is full of typos
and wrong translations (SR3D has about 370 pages, and 150 mistakes,
IIRC). And if you want english books, which are exclusively from
Fanpro, you have to wait too... they seem to be not that interested
in selling tem in large quantities before the german counterpart
hits the shelves.
I don't own the unique german books, but it IMO the most munchkinous
weapons originate there :(

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious. Otherwise they
wouldn't be suspects, would they?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 97
From: Arcaist arcaist@*****.de
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:10:24 +0200
> Something I don't like is Fanpro's habit to do bundles of the
> translations they make. This means that most books FASA
> publishes arrive here about half a year later... and when they do
> it faster (SR3D was released in october AFAIK), the product is
> full of typos and wrong translations (SR3D has about 370
> pages, and 150 mistakes, IIRC).

Well, translation of such a complex system of rules always takes time -
you don't want your German players to interpret things different than
the English-speaking players. But the guys at Fanpro seem to have a
certain talent of mistranslating *just that little* sentence that made
the whole thing work... ;-)

> And if you want english books, which are exclusively from
> Fanpro, you have to wait too... they seem to be not that interested
> in selling tem in large quantities before the german counterpart
> hits the shelves.

I'm always able to get the American books if I want to - either through
my local dealer (he orders at FASA) or through amazon.com (or amazon.de
respectively) - no need to wait for Fanpro.

> I don't own the unique german books, but it IMO the most
> munchkinous weapons originate there :(

I believe it's a habit of making your own work interesting by having
other players say "uh, I want that one!" - I was told by a friend that
it happens on websites, too ;) (btw: that is what I suspect to be the
reason the original weapons'n'stuff section of the Germany Sourcebook
didn't make it into FASAs translation)

--
Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de
Message no. 98
From: Michael & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@*****.msn.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 18:11:43 -0400
Arcaist wrote:
>I believe it's a habit of making your own work interesting by having
>other players say "uh, I want that one!" - I was told by a friend that
>it happens on websites, too ;) (btw: that is what I suspect to be the
>reason the original weapons'n'stuff section of the Germany Sourcebook
>didn't make it into FASAs translation)


That has got to be one of my biggest complaints against people who "make
their own game stuff". When you make new items for the game universe, merely
removing a restriction, limitation, or penalty of an existing item is just
opening the munchkin floodgates. Many game systems have intentionally left
in weaknesses or limitations in things to prevent them from getting out of
control or to keep things in balance.

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 99
From: dEr sCHrecKlicHe sVEn Der-schreckliche-Sven@********.de
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 02:48:09 +0200
licht!

hi! my english is crap.

>Same goes for Earthdawn: it's still going strong in Germany. That's why
>they did publish the Spector and Varney novels (and maybe another), and
>even will publish "Drachen" (Dragons). And maybe some original stuff in the
>future.


believe it or not. there *is* a real shadowrun- and rpg-scene in germany. :)
but the german distributor of shadowrun is facing serious financial problems
at the moment...

-
GCC dx s++: a--- C++(+++)>$ U? P? L? E? W++>$ N o+ K? !w+ O-- !M V?
PS+ PE- Y++ PGP t+ !5-- X- R+++>$ tv++ b+ DI? D G e h r% y++*(**)

dEr-sCHrecKlicHe-sVEn@********.de
uip: 29454728
Message no. 100
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 20:59:49 -0700
Arcaist wrote:
>
> Yup. Thera is/was the Island of Thira (which today is also known as
> Santorin and belongs to Greece). A volcano destroyed most of Thira at
> around 2000 BC (IIRC). I don't know of there's a real connection between
> Atlantis and ED (of course, Thira could have been Atlantis, but that
> would be pure guessing, as the term "Atlantis" is never mentioned in ED)

Nor should it be, as the name didn't apper for several thousand years.

However, some modern work has linked Thera to Atlantis.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"Balance is nothing, story is everything. Obey your ST."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 101
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@********.warande.uu.nl
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 11:25:54 +0200
>believe it or not. there *is* a real shadowrun- and rpg-scene in germany. :)
>but the german distributor of shadowrun is facing serious financial problems
>at the moment...

Fanpro? How is that possible? With DSA in their pockets I can hardly
imagine they would have trouble selling RPG's...

VrGr David

"Shapes of angels the night casts lie dead but dreaming in my past and
they're here, they want to meet you, they want to play with you, so take
the dream."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")
Message no. 102
From: dEr sCHrecKlicHe sVEn Der-schreckliche-Sven@********.de
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:29:07 +0200
hey my english is crap



>Fanpro? How is that possible? With DSA in their pockets I can hardly
>imagine they would have trouble selling RPG's...


hmm....every role-player in germany already owns the most vital dsa-boxes
(realms of arkania in english?). nearly all the new dsa-publications are
just descriptions of aventuria´s regions. when did you buy your last
dsa-box?


-
GCC dx s++: a--- C++(+++)>$ U? P? L? E? W++>$ N o+ K? !w+ O-- !M V?
PS+ PE- Y++ PGP t+ !5-- X- R+++>$ tv++ b+ DI? D G e>+ h r% y++*(**)

dEr-sCHrecKlicHe-sVEn@********.de
uip: 29454728
Message no. 103
From: Arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:47:58 +0200
And finally, Quindrael expressed himself by writing:

<snip "Fanpro in money trouble">

> Fanpro? How is that possible? With DSA in their pockets I can hardly
> imagine they would have trouble selling RPG's...

Well, either this or they are increasing their profit margin.
Someone within Fanpro (ok, rather "was") told us on SR_D that
they want to stop original german SR books, and cut down on
service (if they ever had something like that :) and the like.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
"It may not be war, but it sure as hell ain't peace"
Major General Steven Arnold - On Somalia
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 104
From: Arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:48:00 +0200
And finally, Arcaist expressed himself by writing:

> > And if you want english books, which are exclusively from
> > Fanpro, you have to wait too... they seem to be not that interested
> > in selling tem in large quantities before the german counterpart
> > hits the shelves.
>
> I'm always able to get the American books if I want to - either through
> my local dealer (he orders at FASA) or through amazon.com (or amazon.de
> respectively) - no need to wait for Fanpro.

Me too, but if you have a rpg shop, you won't get your ware there...
Fanpro is exclusive seller for SR and ED in germany (fragging monopolists),
and IMO, they're using this power a little too much

> > I don't own the unique german books, but it IMO the most
> > munchkinous weapons originate there :(
>
> I believe it's a habit of making your own work interesting by having
> other players say "uh, I want that one!" - I was told by a friend that
> it happens on websites, too ;) (btw: that is what I suspect to be the
> reason the original weapons'n'stuff section of the Germany Sourcebook
> didn't make it into FASAs translation)

Reason number one I got the english version :)

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious. Otherwise they
wouldn't be suspects, would they?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 105
From: David Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:35:21 -0400
Twist wrote:
| The problem with ED is they took
| the straight fantasy route and didn't bring anything new to the same old
same
| old themes of eon-old fantasy RPGs.
|

I disagree, but even if I didn't, I still fail to see where the problem is.
It's still a fun game to play. Something doesn't have to be a masterpiece
in order for it to be enjoyable. (Tom Petty music! :-D) People still like
AD&D and that's straight fantasy. What's the difference?

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 106
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:19:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Fanpro? How is that possible? With DSA in their pockets I can hardly
imagine they would have trouble selling RPG's...
>
> VrGr David

Hate to seem ignorant (for once), but wtf is DSA?

*Doc' is afraid this one doesn't DESERVE a smartass comment. Oh. Too late.*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 107
From: Arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:57:49 +0200
And finally, Doc' expressed himself by writing:

> Hate to seem ignorant (for once), but wtf is DSA?

It is the abbrevation for "Das Schwarze Auge" ("The black Eye"),
a fantasy roleplaying game basically like AD&D... but far better :)

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious. Otherwise they
wouldn't be suspects, would they?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 108
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:24:00 +1000
At 07:17 29/07/99 -0700, Kismet wrote:
>
>
>--- "Darrell L. Bowman"
><darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us> wrote:
>> On 28 Jul 99, at 12:42, Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>>
>> > Oh, and the prequels to Worlds Without End were
>> published, but only in
>> > France.
>>
>> I thought it was Germany,.. I've got a friend over
>> there now
>> looking for them :-(
>>
>>
>Why would Fasa do that? Isn't their largest customer
>base in the U.S.? It just doesn't make good business
>sense to me. If you wanted to make a profit on a book,
>wouldn't you sell it in a place where more people will
>want to buy it? Can someone explain the reasoning
>behind this?
>
As I understand it the novels are published by a separate company.
The English language company decided that the ED novels weren't selling
well enough to justify printing them while the German company decided that
they were worth still doing.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 109
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:24:18 +1000
At 04:32 29/07/99 EDT, Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 7/28/99 9:15:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:
>
>> > If anything, not knowing the ED mythology makes SR a scarier place. ED
>> > had the tendancy to feel like silly fantasy, even if it was a good game
>> > system by itself.
>>
>> Silly Fantasy??? Now why on earth would you say that? It's
>> not any sillier than spell slinging elves with cybereyes in 2060?
>>
>
>Shadowrun has fantasy elements, but they never become the kind of Willow/D&D
>nonsense that ED tried to incorporate. Cyberpunk and fantasy and a kind of
>magical realism blending together is an incredible vision, and I appreciate
>that from FASA. ED was silly because it took the generic fantasy route and
>lost most of the potential it could have had.

That depends on how you want to use it.
You could do pure horror, high fantasy, damned near anything...

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 110
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:24:36 +1000
At 11:20 28/07/99 +700, Arcady wrote:
>>And I have to add that I knew of one referance to Crater Lake myself
>>before asking. It's mentioned in the last chapter of Mob War! as being a
>>part of the Ring of Fire, which makes perfect sense.
>>
>>BTW. Let's say I'm interested in IE's and in all the other
>>ED-SR-crossover-stuff as well. Which novels -Earthdawn or Shadowrun-
>>should I read?
>
>This brings up a counter point. Let's say I'm not interested in this
Earthdawn
>stuff whatsoever and want nothing to do with it. Will there be any published
>Shadowrun books that will have stuff that requires me to be fluent in
Earthdawn
>material?
>
Nope is the short answer.
The closest link is Harlequinn's back, but it's externally explained anyway.
There are a few mentions in Aztlan, Tir Na Nog, Tir Tairngire and
Cybertechnology but they can be left as back story without filling in
anything from ED.

A few novels have links but an Earthdawn understanding isn't necessary to
understand what's going on.
(Worlds Without End, House Of The Sun, Black Madonna are the ones that I've
read, avoid Black Madonna <g>)

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 111
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:24:59 +1000
At 07:18 30/07/99 EDT, Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 7/30/99 12:44:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:
>
>> Generic? Boy,.. I'd like to see this post on the ED list. The
>> use of the Scourge, the Horrors, and all is, as far as I know,
>> new. Add in the scorcers for a mundane threat, the Therans
>> for a military opposition. The dragons for their,.. well for being
>> dragons. Most systems don't use dragons and intelligent
>> beings like ED does too.
>>
>
>The Scourge and the Horrors were the only original things I found in ED, and
>those were tied to SR.

Hardly. They were a central point of the ED world.

> All of the independant ED threads read like AD&D.
>Magicians are common in fantasy RPGs,

Yep, and they're there in SR.
The style of magic in ED was pretty distinctive.

> Therans are your typical oppressive ruling state,

not really. There are major differences between Thera and most of the
oppressive countries in the frps I've looked at.

> and dragons have been around for eternity.

Also in SR.


> You come to ED from
>SR expecting a dangerous and dark past of great magic, and end up in a mock
>AD&D game. Or worse, the Windlings appear and suddenly you're in Willow.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 112
From: Scott Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:15:01 -0400
In a message from "Darrell L. Bowman" <darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us>
dated Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:50:32 -0400, my mailer made me see:

<SNIP>
-> like AD&D?? Or course magicians are common in fantasy and
-> dragons have been around forever, but other than SR and ED,
-> where have you ever seen dragons that had as much power
-> and smarts? I mean, if we're gonna' start comparing fantasy
<SNIP>

The most powerful dragons I have experienced are in RuneQuest (which is a great system by
the way, full of rules that work and a super-rich history/mythology). When adventurers
encounter "dragons" in RuneQuest they are really encountering "dream
dragons." In other words, what we think of as a dragon is the physical manifestation
of a dream of a real dragon. And those dreams are tough. Dragons can be the size of
mountain ranges and wake only once a milenium to lay waste to huge armies. No one messes
with a dragon!

--Scott
Message no. 113
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kenneth Peters)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed Mar 21 15:50:01 2001
[<snipt!(TM) Crater Lake stuff>

Well, Ken, I can see why they might have rejected it.
Firstly, because it was just a subset of a previously
explored land (I think all of what we've heard was/is
going to be in T:AL is in unexplored regions).]

Nope. Crater Lake is one of the areas. I'm just not the guy chosen to write
it ;)~

[And secondly because you don't say what's going on! :)]

Like I said this was the proposal, not the draft. And most of the background
information was contained in the email that this was attached to. I didn't
include that since it has a bit too much spoiler material. Besides, I leave
it up to the gamemaster to say whats really going on. Damn, you want
everything spelled out for ya? :)

[Of course, I'm thinking Horrors, if "Anonymous" is
telling the true about the wraiths' big
brothers...which is another reason why it might have
been rejected. If I'm not mistaken, the wraith hasn't
shown up in any SR3 product, not even the Critters
book, or MitS - so having a location that has them as
a large component of its atmosphere/opposition could
be troublesome. Course, they could've simply added
rules for them in the book...but then, maybe they
dropped wraiths from Critters for a reason...but who
knows? Not me. :)]

Wraiths were accidently left out. I presume that you'll see them in Boo
"Needs a Better Name" Scary at the latest.

Yes the Horrors were frowned on. Not because of the ED tie-ins though.
You'll see the reasons it was rejected when the book comes out.

[ANYWAY...did you plan out what was "really" going on there?]

I had an idea of what I wanted to do with it. The Argent Termagent project
was actually a short story I wrote for this (its rough so I'm not posting
that) that developed the major elements. My reasoning for the old Cubes was
that they were there to condition the manalines in the reason and
concentrate it on the area over the lake, "spiking" the mana over Wizards
Island. As for whats in the box, well I don't care ;) Obviously its HIGHLY
probably its a Horror of some sort but really its up to the gamemaster and I
didn't want to have a set Threat that everyone had to use - I hate it when
stuff is written like that.

Peace out,
Kenneth


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Message no. 114
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu Mar 22 00:00:01 2001
> Nope. Crater Lake is one of the areas. I'm just not
the guy chosen to write it ;)~

Well, damn...

> Like I said this was the proposal, not the draft.
And most of the background information was contained
in the email that this was attached to. I didn't
include that since it has a bit too much spoiler
material. Besides, I leave it up to the gamemaster to
say whats really going on. Damn, you want everything
spelled out for ya? :)

Nope...but I do like to see what the 'canon' ideas
are. I can always change them later if I want.

> Wraiths were accidently left out. I presume that
you'll see them in Boo "Needs a Better Name" Scary at
the latest.

That's still on the cards over at Wizkids? Cool.

> Yes the Horrors were frowned on. Not because of the
ED tie-ins though. You'll see the reasons it was
rejected when the book comes out.

Awww, don't be like that. :)

They keeping TT Horror-free?

> I had an idea of what I wanted to do with it. The
Argent Termagent project was actually a short story I
wrote for this (its rough so I'm not posting that)
that developed the major elements. My reasoning for
the old Cubes was that they were there to condition
the manalines in the reason and concentrate it on the
area over the lake, "spiking" the mana over Wizards
Island. As for whats in the box, well I don't care ;)
Obviously its HIGHLY probably its a Horror of some
sort but really its up to the gamemaster and I didn't
want to have a set Threat that everyone had to use - I
hate it when stuff is written like that.
> Kenneth

Question is, WHY were they spiking the mana? To enable
the box to capture whatever is in it, or for some
other reason?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Message no. 115
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Tzeentch)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu Mar 22 01:50:01 2001
> Nope. Crater Lake is one of the areas. I'm just not
the guy chosen to write it ;)~

>>Well, damn...<<

You're telling me ;)

> Like I said this was the proposal, not the draft.
And most of the background information was contained
in the email that this was attached to. I didn't
include that since it has a bit too much spoiler
material. Besides, I leave it up to the gamemaster to
say whats really going on. Damn, you want everything
spelled out for ya? :)

>>Nope...but I do like to see what the 'canon' ideas
are. I can always change them later if I want.<<

Good point. Lets see... from the submission overview (note this is for the
original idea and not what I ended up writing). Some of this stuff is pretty
outdated now heh...

FORMAT
This section will be written in-character by an member of an Sioux Wildcats
team sent into get first-hand information on the Crater Lake and Mount
Shasta locations since it has been magically cloaked from satellite
surveillance for the last several years until one day it suddenly becomes
visible again.and there is nothing to see! No giant cubes, no large
installations, nothing, all gone.

The comments will focus primarily on Crater Lake but there will be specific
hints as to what is going on at Mt. Shasta (which will still be a secured
site - possibly a orichaleum mining center). Numerous mysteries will be
uncovered, notably that there is an extremely powerful manaline connected to
Mt. Shasta and an very odd collection of manalines through the area
connecting the other extinct volcanoes in the area. One suggested is that
this mandala pattern actually has kabbalistic meaning (left undefined for
gamemasters to apply their own ideas).

Shadowcomments will be lightly spread throughout, mainly to draw attention
to certain mysterious events that "shouldn't happen" - such as what happened
to the floating cubes, if they crashed where are the remains? Where did they
come from to begin with? The "report" will end with the team attempting to
get close to Mt. Shasta and then vanishing.

LAKE MYSTERIES
Instead of ditching Crater Lake into the "mana void" department so we never
have to deal with it again, I say open up the area for runners and add a lot
of little mysteries that will titillate players. I also have plans to
revisit some of the threads in shadowtalk for future books.

THE MANALINES
There will actually be an entire network of manalines surrounding the area,
linking to what used to be the many extinct volcanoes in the region.
Extremely powerful ones will also link to Mt. Shasta.

Suggestion
These manalines will form an odd kabbalistic pattern, the purpose of which
is unknown. Depending on what you want to do with the area this can be a
result of the Bridge or the precursor to something else entirely. Among
other things the entire area will have a fairly high Background Count, with
areas in the center of the lake and Wizards Island having background counts
so high they are potentially deadly for users, in fact they are so high that
they act as mana voids for purposes of using magic there due to the
feedback.

Another possible option is that the closing of the Bridge threw the entire
area out of whack, one day the area is a mana void, another day the
background count is 10, another day its no magic. Weather would also be
quite freaky in the area.

Reasoning
There needs to be some reason that the Tir abandon the area (letting players
have some fun there) and the unstable magic is a good reason. The extreme
background counts also play into the fact that this WAS an extremely
powerful locus of magic.

Random Ideas
The areas that once were the cones of the various volcanoes are the location
of the highest magical effects, as in so high the air shimmers. Wizards
Island is actually not in the location of the old cone but it's a
convenenient spot to be really close to it.

Perhaps the areas of highest magical effect mean that there is actually some
production of elemental air and water? This could tie in with the "Water
Shimmer" (see below).

WRAITHS
The entire area is infested with Wraiths and other similar creatures. This
is a perfect opportunity to put the Wraiths into print! I was thinking of
playing up the possibility that they are guarding the Lake area itself.

Suggestion
The wraiths will be not only a great "monster" for the area but are a
convenient introduction point so they can see print ;) Plus I really like
Wraiths.

Reasoning
Depending on the options you like the Wraiths can be fairly rare or crawling
all over the place. If the Abandoned Site option is used then the draw for
playes will be MUCH higher and the wraiths can be much more common. Some
critter corpses possessed by shedim can also be in the area.

Random Ideas
The wraiths are perhaps trying to rebuild the Bridge in some manner, or at
least prevent it from having further problems. Noone can say the Horrors
aren't a patient bunch when they have to be. Some other Horror-spawn might
also be interesting to work with the wraiths.

WATER SHIMMER
Although the lake waters are already an almost unnatural shade of blue in
real life, there can be additional mystery with addition of "water shimmer"
somewhere below the waters. This is apparently a non-magical effect but that
would be hard to tell given the insane background counts and/or
fluctuations. This shimmer is almost hypnotic and people who fall asleep
watching the water have odd visions and even describe what could be
metaplanes - both mages and mundanes.

Suggestion
This shimmer could be a result of Elemental Water being mixed with normal
water or it could be a result of the high magic energies interacting with
the various microbes in the water? Perhaps some new types of mana-active
bacteria?

Reasoning
There needs to be SOME mysteries that cannot be obviously ascribed to
blatant magical effects. The mystery of the visions should also be played
up.

One idea that REALLY appeals to me is that the lake is giving off Extremely
Low Frequency (ELF) vibrations in the same frequency range as brain
activity - particularly in the Delta and Beta ranges (1-4Hz and 12-14Hz
respectively). That would give a "scientific" explanation for some of the
effects. But what is producing the ELF tones? Something in the lake, but
what?

Let me know what you think.

Random Ideas
The lake has new types of Awakened microbes and plants in the area (there is
a surprising variety IRL at the area) and thus there are additional hooks to
get people to go there. Namely every corp and their dog wants to get samples
of these new creations for research. Now if only the background count and
wraiths don't get you first.

ABANDONED SITE
With this option not EVERYTHING was disassembled by the Tir when they split,
they left a small facility on Wizards Island along with some VERY odd
artifacts of unknown origin or purpose.

Suggestion
What's inside the facility (which will be quite small) will never be
defined. Hints that it may lead underground will be mentioned. In any case
the building will have no doors or windows and is protected by some sort of
ward of incredible strength. Hints that its locking something IN will also
be made.

Reasoning
There has to be something there for players to want to check out, why not an
incredibly mysterious box that you can't get into without using a bigass
bomb? ? Everyone loves mysteries, and gamemasters can do whatever they want
with it. I don't plan on EVER revealing what's in the building so as to keep
it entirely open ended.

Random Ideas
Some artifacts that can be located at Crater Lake include an odd circle
constructed of what appears to be wood spinning about 5 feet above the
center of the lake (over what used to be the cone). Perhaps Elemental Wood
and orichaleum? The device cannot be reliably analyzed and cannot be moved
or affected by anything less then a nuke.

Odd dancing rocks around the lake that spontaneously seem to become "alive"
and "dance" around. Not harmful but could spook players. In actuality this
will be an effect of the high mana level, a minor side effect. No spirits
involved.

Ghostly lights moving under the water or in the air. Do not show up on
sensors or film and cannot be assensed in the astral.

The cubes were sucked into the metaplanes where they were located to begin
with, now that they have vanished (obviously to the surprise of the Tir!)
the manalines in the area are becoming increasingly unstable. The cubes were
there to "condition" the mana in a safe manner. The major volcanic actions
in the last several thousand years had seriously hosed up some carefully
managed manalines the immortal elves had built up.

MOUNT SHASTA
Mt. Shasta can provide a good reason for Tir aggression in northern Cali.
They weren't after land they wanted the mountain! To get it they invade all
the way down to Eureka/Redding, bypassing Lake Shasta and Hestaby but
bringing some big guns just in case (even dragons can't soak 120mm cannons,
Force 12 hellblasts, and cruise missiles forever). After that they just
stop.No more movement and they start to fortify their new borders.

Suggestion
The Tir discovers that there is Orichaleum in 'dem dere hills!! Combined
with a weak Cali government and military (especially if the Azzies and NAN
starts making moves) it's the perfect time to secure this incredibly
valuable natural resource. In addition they manage to contain a possibly
future foe in Hestaby. Without the Cali military to back her up she has to
settle for being restricted (in theory) to the Lake Shasta area. She is also
blocked from the Mt. Shasta area on threat of death. Although that doesn't
mean she can't still get around the forces and snoop, perhaps she hires the
shadowrunners to find out what she can't?

Reasoning
This gives a valid reason for the Tir to invade Cali again, and is a
stepping stone to totally getting rid of the CFS mistake. It can also help
open up the Tir since they have to absorb many of the local residents and
send a lot of others packing. Plenty of confusion shadowrunners an exploit
to see what's going on behind the "Wood Curtain."

Random Ideas
The Mt. Shasta operation can be obfuscated as much as you wish. The area has
a LONG mystical history so we could say they are doing almost anything there
from looking for the Ascended Masters to mining material for telesma. I
would like to avoid flat-out saying that there is orichaleum in the area.
Let that be a future revelation.


> Wraiths were accidently left out. I presume that
you'll see them in Boo "Needs a Better Name" Scary at
the latest.

>>That's still on the cards over at Wizkids? Cool.<<

As far as I know it is. But of course since noones heard anything since the
FanPro announcement its just supposition.

> Yes the Horrors were frowned on. Not because of the
ED tie-ins though. You'll see the reasons it was
rejected when the book comes out.

>>Awww, don't be like that. :)<<

I can't tell you about all the cool <FNORD!>

>>They keeping TT Horror-free?<<

It's my understanding that the events in the Dragonheart Trilogy were pretty
clearcut in knocking the Horrors out of the picture for a while.

> I had an idea of what I wanted to do with it. The
Argent Termagent project was actually a short story I
wrote for this (its rough so I'm not posting that)
that developed the major elements. My reasoning for
the old Cubes was that they were there to condition
the manalines in the reason and concentrate it on the
area over the lake, "spiking" the mana over Wizards
Island. As for whats in the box, well I don't care ;)
Obviously its HIGHLY probably its a Horror of some
sort but really its up to the gamemaster and I didn't
want to have a set Threat that everyone had to use - I
hate it when stuff is written like that.
> Kenneth

>>Question is, WHY were they spiking the mana? To enable
the box to capture whatever is in it, or for some
other reason?<<

Probably as a way of researching a method of introducing ED magic in a low
mana environment (the floating buildings). Remember TT is the reincarnation
of the old Theran Empire. Also for doing whatever Aina and the other IEs had
in mind to screw with.

Kenneth
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
*Seize the day, put no trust in tomorrow.*
- Horace, Odes
Message no. 116
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu Mar 22 12:15:00 2001
On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:38:43, tzeentch666@*********.net wrote:
>Probably as a way of researching a method of introducing ED magic in a low

>mana environment (the floating buildings). Remember TT is the reincarnation

>of the old Theran Empire.

That's something of an oversimplification. While it's not likely to be
relevant any time soon, it's worth mentioning that the major immortal power
blocks of the Sixth World are NOT simply those of the Fourth World with
different names. Tir Tairngire != Thera and Tir Na nOg != Blood Wood. For
example, Alachia is involved quite heavily with Tir Tairngire, but her people
in Blood Wood once went to war with Thera back in the Fourth World.

There's been a lot of water under the bridge in the thousands of years since
the end of the Fourth World, and a lot of shifts in allegiances and
rivalries. Both Tirs (and, to a degree, other factions of the Shadowrun
world) are inheritors of some of the lore and personalities of the great
powers of the last Age of Magic, but they are unique entities and not just
copies of what came before.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled mailing list discussion ;-)

Take care,

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 117
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu Mar 22 19:35:06 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: TalonMail@***.com <TalonMail@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, March 23, 2001 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: Crater Lake


>On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:38:43, tzeentch666@*********.net wrote:
>>Probably as a way of researching a method of introducing ED magic in a low
>
>>mana environment (the floating buildings). Remember TT is the
reincarnation
>
>>of the old Theran Empire.
>
>That's something of an oversimplification. While it's not likely to be
>relevant any time soon, it's worth mentioning that the major immortal power
>blocks of the Sixth World are NOT simply those of the Fourth World with
>different names. Tir Tairngire != Thera and Tir Na nOg != Blood Wood. For
>example, Alachia is involved quite heavily with Tir Tairngire, but her
people
>in Blood Wood once went to war with Thera back in the Fourth World.
>
>There's been a lot of water under the bridge in the thousands of years
since
>the end of the Fourth World, and a lot of shifts in allegiances and
>rivalries. Both Tirs (and, to a degree, other factions of the Shadowrun
>world) are inheritors of some of the lore and personalities of the great
>powers of the last Age of Magic, but they are unique entities and not just
>copies of what came before.
>
>I now return you to your regularly scheduled mailing list discussion ;-)
>


Boo! I want my eternal war where everything's the same!
Message no. 118
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu Mar 22 20:50:01 2001
> >Probably as a way of researching a method of
introducing ED magic in a low mana environment (the
floating buildings). Remember TT is the reincarnation
of the old Theran Empire.
>
> That's something of an oversimplification. While
it's not likely to be relevant any time soon, it's
worth mentioning that the major immortal power blocks
of the Sixth World are NOT simply those of the Fourth
World with different names. Tir Tairngire != Thera and
Tir Na nOg != Blood Wood. For example, Alachia is
involved quite heavily with Tir Tairngire, but her
people in Blood Wood once went to war with Thera back
in the Fourth World.
>
> There's been a lot of water under the bridge in the
thousands of years since the end of the Fourth World,
and a lot of shifts in allegiances and rivalries. Both
Tirs (and, to a degree, other factions of the
Shadowrun world) are inheritors of some of the lore
and personalities of the great powers of the last Age
of Magic, but they are unique entities and not just
copies of what came before.
>
> I now return you to your regularly scheduled mailing
list discussion ;-)
> Steve Kenson

Thanks for that, Steve. I was going to say something
about the TT=Thera comment. I was going to get it
WRONG, but I was going to say something. Now I don't
have to.

Thanks for helping me not to make a COMPLETE ass of
myself...

...as usual.

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 119
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu Mar 22 21:30:01 2001
> > Nope. Crater Lake is one of the areas. I'm just
not the guy chosen to write it ;)~
>
> >>Well, damn...<<
>
> You're telling me ;)

Hang on...I thought YOU were telling ME...

:)

> >>Nope...but I do like to see what the 'canon' ideas
are. I can always change them later if I want.<<
>
> Good point.

Of course it was. I always have good points. Like the
one on my head...

> Lets see... from the submission overview (note this
is for the original idea and not what I ended up
writing). Some of this stuff is pretty outdated now
heh...
>
> FORMAT
<snipt!(TM)>

Interesting ideas...pity. I would've been interested
to see what came out in the wash. :)

> >>Awww, don't be like that. :)<<
>
> I can't tell you about all the cool <FNORD!>

:P

> >>They keeping TT Horror-free?<<
>
> It's my understanding that the events in the
Dragonheart Trilogy were pretty clearcut in knocking
the Horrors out of the picture for a while.
> Kenneth

Yeah, I'll buy that. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 120
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed May 30 13:55:01 2001
Howdy folks,

Please excuse my general ignorance, but after reading
TT I was left wondering whether FASA developed the
Crater Lake thingamajig at any particular point in SR
canon. The Timeline Explorer doesn't seem to yield
anything beyond the two bits given in TT, so I'm left
wondering...

Cheers,

Jan Jaap van Poelgeest

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Message no. 121
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Wed May 30 22:10:01 2001
> Please excuse my general ignorance, but after
reading TT I was left wondering whether FASA developed
the Crater Lake thingamajig at any particular point in
SR canon. The Timeline Explorer doesn't seem to yield
anything beyond the two bits given in TT, so I'm left
wondering...
> Jan Jaap van Poelgeest

Heya, JJ!

I think it's safe to say that you should look for this
in the upcoming Target: Awakened Lands.

That is the right place, isn't it, Tzeentch?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 122
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu May 31 02:10:01 2001
> I think it's safe to say that you should look for
> this
> in the upcoming Target: Awakened Lands.

Is this an indepedent product or has wizkid decided to
continue shadowrun, now that fasa has closed?

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 123
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu May 31 05:05:00 2001
According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Thu, 31 May 2001 the word on the street
was...

> > I think it's safe to say that you should look for this
> > in the upcoming Target: Awakened Lands.
>
> Is this an indepedent product or has wizkid decided to
> continue shadowrun, now that fasa has closed?

Wizkids owns Shadowrun, but FanPro will develop and publish the actual
books. The first release will be Year of the Comet (within the next two
months or so) and T:AL will be one of the subsequent books. This is all
stuff FASA was working on as well, so they're just picking up where FASA
left off.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Who needs that now?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 124
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu May 31 11:35:01 2001
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>


According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Thu, 31 May 2001 the word on the street
was...

> > I think it's safe to say that you should look for this
> > in the upcoming Target: Awakened Lands.
>
> Is this an indepedent product or has wizkid decided to
> continue shadowrun, now that fasa has closed?

Wizkids owns Shadowrun, but FanPro will develop and publish the actual
books. The first release will be Year of the Comet (within the next two
months or so) and T:AL will be one of the subsequent books. This is all
stuff FASA was working on as well, so they're just picking up where FASA
left off.

According to my reliable industry sources, there will be 4 releases from Fan
Pro in the Fall,
YotC, T:AL, Threats 2, and a fourth product the name of which escapes me at
the moment.
--Anders
Message no. 125
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Crater Lake
Date: Thu May 31 13:05:01 2001
According to Anders Swenson, on Thu, 31 May 2001 the word on the street was...

> According to my reliable industry sources, there will be 4 releases from Fan
> Pro in the Fall, YotC, T:AL, Threats 2, and a fourth product the name
> of which escapes me at the moment.

That would be Shadows of North America.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Who needs that now?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Crater Lake, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!