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From:	Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:16:32 -0400

Message no. 1 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Gurth."
]But, many players don't see it that way.. they see it "I'll get to 1.1
]essence, so's I don't lose my Magic, then Initiate up from there" (That goes
]for Physads I might add)... And that's the problem, IMHO...

Well, to use a non-politically correct example, I know people who
use drugs (GASP!) They use some, avoid others, sometimes go
months without using, etc. They are walking the line in the same
way that cyber-mages do. A cyber-mage looks at the pros and cons,
weighs the benefits, and goes under the knife until the point where
she/he deems it wise to stop. Same with the user. Whether or not
the user succumbs and starts taking crack or PCP instead of more
tame substances is the same as whether or not the mage gets cybered
to the point of becoming mundane. All you need is willpower,
brains, and a little research. A decent willpower on the character
should explain why the character doesn't burn-out voluntarily (and
if you're playing a mage with a willpower of less than 4, a decent
willpower, you need to rethink your strategy).

Scott

P.S. I know that drug-use is completely different from fictional
junk like cyberware. I know addiction hurts people, and wrecks
lives. I simply couldn't think of another analogy that worked
better in my mind. Please don't take offense at the above posting,
'cause none was meant. If you're gonna flame, flame privately.
-----------------------------------------------------
"Fragile, timid, with natural good manners,
he was, however, better suited for war than
for government."
_One Hundred Years Of Solitude_
Gabriel Garcia Marquez

From:	Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:20:25 +0200

Message no. 2 -----Original Message-----
From: Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 10 February 1999 02:21
Subject: Re: Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)

>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Gurth."
>]But, many players don't see it that way.. they see it "I'll get to
1.1
>]essence, so's I don't lose my Magic, then Initiate up from there"
(That goes
>]for Physads I might add)... And that's the problem, IMHO...
>
> Well, to use a non-politically correct example, I know people who
>use drugs (GASP!) They use some, avoid others, sometimes go
>months without using, etc. They are walking the line in the same
>way that cyber-mages do. A cyber-mage looks at the pros and cons,
>weighs the benefits, and goes under the knife until the point where
>she/he deems it wise to stop. Same with the user. Whether or not
>the user succumbs and starts taking crack or PCP instead of more
>tame substances is the same as whether or not the mage gets cybered
>to the point of becoming mundane. All you need is willpower,
>brains, and a little research. A decent willpower on the character
>should explain why the character doesn't burn-out voluntarily (and
>if you're playing a mage with a willpower of less than 4, a decent
>willpower, you need to rethink your strategy).

<snip apologies & .sig>

I think thats a sharp analogy. No apologies needed.

As with all the good things in life, moderation, perspective and self
control will preserve your sanity and help you set limits for
yourself.

More on topic though, I feel a mage who decides to get cybered should
do it either in small incremints, maybe starting with the lowest
Essence item first. While thinks makes for a lot of wasted time and
yen, for surgery and recovery respectively, it does reflect the
magic-user's paranoia about ruining his "gift"

Another option is to meticulously plan a "bundle" or "package deal"
procedure. This brings it all down to one Op, but the threat of
further magic loss from invasive surgery and a deadly wound exists.

In my opinion, most mages will know more about the workings of
cyberware than of magic. Additionally, I figure that people will react
more suspiciouly to mages and spell casting than to the heavily
cybered. As an explanation, answer the following question. Who do you
trust? Sean Hill, the guy you went to High school with and who is now
a cybered up Urban Brawler making the big money, or the local mage,
who may or may not know the Control Actions spell? :) My point is that
in a world torn apart by racism and the widening gap between rich and
poor, I dont think the magically active would be scorned by their
peers for making an intelligent descision.

As for the game mechanics behind the whole deal and the min-maxing
munchies out there, who cares?

0.02¥

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Step from my tables as I start to chop
I'm a lumberjack DJ Adrock
If you try to knock me you'll get mocked
I'll stir fry you in my wok

Beastie Boys - Intergalactic

From:	Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:07:00 +1000

Message no. 3 "They call me" Bruce writes:
> More on topic though, I feel a mage who decides to get cybered should
> do it either in small incremints, maybe starting with the lowest
> Essence item first. While thinks makes for a lot of wasted time and
> yen, for surgery and recovery respectively, it does reflect the
> magic-user's paranoia about ruining his "gift"
>
> Another option is to meticulously plan a "bundle" or "package
deal"
> procedure. This brings it all down to one Op, but the threat of
> further magic loss from invasive surgery and a deadly wound exists.

*Evil GM chuckle...* use the surgery rules to see vary the actual Essence
cost of the cyber. Then keep Essence as a hidden stat (let the players have
the rounded-down figure, especially for astrally-aware folks, as they could
work that out). Given that the Essence implant can vary by as much as 25%
using the surgery rules, mages will be a _lot_ more reluctant to cyber to
the max, as they could wake up a total mundane.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:29:59 -0600

Message no. 4 >"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Gurth."
>]But, many players don't see it that way.. they see it "I'll get to 1.1
>]essence, so's I don't lose my Magic, then Initiate up from there" (That
goes
>]for Physads I might add)... And that's the problem, IMHO...
>

Personally, I would think a Mage with 11 points of magic would be much more
dangerous than a Mage with 6 Points of magic and 5 points of
cyberware...Especially in SR3 now that Magic Rating has a little more effect
on casting magic. Not to mention how far behind in skills & attributes he
would be since Initiation is not exactly cheap. I happen to run a Combat
Mage from the SR1 archetype when I didn't know anything about SR. I've
worked in a character background that Cyberware was initially installed
against my wishes but have changed and reinstalled new cyberware hear and
there going for the latest beta & alpha where. The more important piece and
perfect for any mage was a set of Skillwires & chipjack. Hey, I spend enough
time reading arcane tombs and researching new spells, who has the time to go
to the gym or firing range? The right choice of 1 or 2 points of essence
worth of cyberware is all any mage should really want or need. Almost all
combat related cyberware can be duplicated via magic.

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon

From:	hartmann@*********.m.uunet.de hartmann@*********.m.uunet.de
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:38:29 +0100

Message no. 5 Robert wrote:

>
> *Evil GM chuckle...* use the surgery rules to see vary the actual Essence
> cost of the cyber. Then keep Essence as a hidden stat (let the players have
> the rounded-down figure, especially for astrally-aware folks, as they could
> work that out). Given that the Essence implant can vary by as much as 25%
> using the surgery rules, mages will be a _lot_ more reluctant to cyber to
> the max, as they could wake up a total mundane.

Yes, but a mage that has initiated enough to be able to go for 5
points of essence-loss and still having a magic attribute of 6 (ie:
Initiate 5) has earned enough karma and thus has a large karma
pool to get enough rerolls until he gets the cyberware installed at -
20% instead of +25%...:-)
My mage-character finally got himself a pair of cybereyes installed
(because getting the vision edge is sometimes very important for
casting spells), a chipjack and an encephalon (to be able to use
knowlegde and language skillsofts). Thats mostly because he
additionally needs access to scientific chipsofts as he started a
second life as a shadowdoc..:-)

bye Mike

---
Shadowrun Character Generator Gold available at
http://members.xoom.com/SRCG

From:	AlSeyMer AdSM@******.be
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:44:11 +0100

Message no. 6 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 18:38 11/02/99 , hartmann@***********.m.uunet.de told me ...
>Robert wrote:
>(snip)
>Yes, but a mage that has initiated enough to be able to go for 5
>points of essence-loss and still having a magic attribute of 6 (ie:
>Initiate 5) has earned enough karma and thus has a large karma
>pool to get enough rerolls until he gets the cyberware installed at -
>20% instead of +25%...:-)
>(snip)

IMHO, the mage shouldn't use his karma for this: he isn't the one who
is implanting the cyberware.
And if you allow this, you may allow him to use karma for essence loss
roll as well...
But, to get back to the exemple, the surgeon may use his karma to
better his successes.

Just my two cents ;-)

AlSeyMer

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From:	NercoLythe@*.com NercoLythe@*.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:46:26 EST

Message no. 7 Okay I don't really know how this works so bare with me now.

My essence is 6 an magic att. is also 6. Now if my essence changes does my
magic change also? Can my magic go higher than my essense rating?

From:	John E Pederson pedersje@******.Rose-Hulman.Edu
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:16:20 -0500

Message no. 8 NercoLythe@***.com wrote:
>
> Okay I don't really know how this works so bare with me now.
>
> My essence is 6 an magic att. is also 6. Now if my essence changes does my
> magic change also? Can my magic go higher than my essense rating?

Bingo! One's Magic rating equals the floor of (smallest integer not
greater than) your Essence, plus your current Initiation grade
(assuming points have not been lost from stim-patches, deadly damage,
bioware, etc., etc., et al, etc.).

--
John Pederson

From:	Michael _ your_raven@*******.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:05:08 PST

Message no. 9 Granted, now that SR3 is available the old Grimoire is out the window,
but back in the old days a mage who cybered away 5 points of Essence had
geasa problems. Namely, he picked up two...and if the GM is smart enough
to she/he can make sure the player doesn't get away with some light
penalty. Until the new magic book comes out I am still using most of the
old grimoire and players all know that some things may get changed mid
campaign. Secondly, if this mage is wiring himself up he is probably
blowing fairly large chunks of Essence at one time, especially for
things like Wired Reflexes. In SR2 it gave very specific rules for when
a certain degree of Essence loss in a surgery counted as what kind of
wound, and the bigger stuff was almost always a Deadly wounder. This
means another chance to hit the mage for magic loss since everytime a
mage takes a Deadly wound you role 2D6 and if its below the Magic
Attribute, he loses a point.

My question is...Physads are limited to their levels in powers based on
their Magic Attribute. No Increased Quickness 5 if you only have Magic
4. Now, in the old system, physads could initiate and raise their Magic.
Under the new rules Physads can purchase additionaly "Power Points",
which leads me to believe that in the new magic book physads are going
to lose the ability to initiate. So, do purchased power points raise the
Magic Atrribute? The two things start out equal and if the physad loses
Magic he loses Power Points, so are they always equal?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:43:00 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 10 On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 NercoLythe@***.com wrote:

> Okay I don't really know how this works so bare with me now.
>
> My essence is 6 an magic att. is also 6. Now if my essence changes does my
> magic change also? Can my magic go higher than my essense rating?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Your Essence *starts out* at 6. Anything
that reduces your Essence (like getting Cyberware implanted) also reduces
your Magic Attribute. Your new Magic Attribute will be your Essence
truncated to the nearest whole number. So if you get 1.5 Essence-worth of
cyberware implanted, your new Essence would be 6 - 1.5 = 4.5, and your new
magic attribute would be a 4 (4.5 rounded down to the nearest whole
number).
How do you raise you Essence? You don't. Once it's gone, it's
gone for good, even if you get the cyberware ripped out later down the
road (although if you have cyberware removed you have an Essence "hole"
that you can fill before you lose any more from your total).
How do you raise your Magic Attribute? Initiation, as explained
in the Grimoire. Also, keep in mind that for every 2 full points of Magic
Attribute you lose, you pick up a "geas," which is an unpleasant
restriction on your magic-use. They tend to be like magical crutches,
like talismans, gestures, speaking, time or place restrictions, or
whatever. You can attempt to shed a geas when you initiate, but it's not
easy.
Also, Bioware (which does not cost any Essence for mundanes)
*also* reduces your magic rating. Due to an unfortunate misprint in
Shadowtech, there have been numerous interpretations of this rule. I have
always taken it to mean that the Body Index is subtracted from your Magic
Attribute directly, rather than causing further Essence loss (in effect
saving mages from the "double whammy" that is implied in the sourcebook).
Your GM may decide differently, however.
I hope this clears it up for you. Good luck getting hold of the
sourcebooks you're looking for.

Marc

From:	Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:42:55 -0500

Message no. 11 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:05 PM 2/11/99 -0800, Michael _ wrote:
>My question is...Physads are limited to their levels in powers based
on
>their Magic Attribute. No Increased Quickness 5 if you only have
Magic
>4. Now, in the old system, physads could initiate and raise their
Magic.
>Under the new rules Physads can purchase additionaly "Power Points",
>which leads me to believe that in the new magic book physads are
going
>to lose the ability to initiate. So, do purchased power points raise
the
>Magic Atrribute? The two things start out equal and if the physad
loses
>Magic he loses Power Points, so are they always equal?

Since the main book says nothing that links buying additional Power
Points to an increase in Magic attribute, even though it would be
critical for players and GMs to know this if it was FASA's intent
(because of the aforementioned limit of physad powers by the Magic
attribute), I strongly suspect that Physads _won't_ loose the power to
initiate.

I have a feeling that the option to buy additional Power Points was
intended as a suppliment to, and not as a replacement for Initiation.
Traditionally, physads have gotten the short end of the stick with
Initiation, and the new rule offers an alternative. Also, by including
the option to buy Power Points in the main book, physads have a way to
advance their character that isn't considered an "Advanced Rule". In
games based off of just the core rulebook, sammies could always buy
new cyber, and mages could learn new spells they didn't know before,
but for a physad to advance, the Grimoire was a required book.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:57:33 -0500

Message no. 12 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:43 AM 2/12/99 -0500, Marc Renouf wrote:
> How do you raise you Essence? You don't.

Have you talked to any vampires about this? :)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:34:08 +0100

Message no. 13 According to NercoLythe@***.com, at 18:46 on 11 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Okay I don't really know how this works so bare with me now.
>
> My essence is 6 an magic att. is also 6. Now if my essence changes does my
> magic change also? Can my magic go higher than my essense rating?

Your Magic rating is nearly always (see below for an exception) equal to
your Essence attribute, rounded down to the nearest whole number -- IOW,
chop off all numbers after the decimal point/comma (depending on where in
the world you are :) Thus, a magician with a datajack has an Essence of
5.8, and a Magic rating of 5.

You can increase your Magic rating through initiation; this is covered in
the Grimoire, and presumably in the upcoming Magic In The Shadows; you
CANNOT simply increase your Magic attribute like you can with your Mental
and Physical attributes (Intelligence, Body, etc.).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If it's no use pretending, then I don't want to know.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:49:01 -0600

Message no. 14 :Since the main book says nothing that links buying additional Power
:Points to an increase in Magic attribute, even though it would be
:critical for players and GMs to know this if it was FASA's intent
:(because of the aforementioned limit of physad powers by the Magic
:attribute), I strongly suspect that Physads _won't_ loose the power to
:initiate.

I believe MIke M. mentioned at Gencon that intitation will be an
option for adepts, and that it will raise magic AND grant a power point.

:I have a feeling that the option to buy additional Power Points was
:intended as a suppliment to, and not as a replacement for Initiation.
:Traditionally, physads have gotten the short end of the stick with
:Initiation, and the new rule offers an alternative. Also, by including
:the option to buy Power Points in the main book, physads have a way to
:advance their character that isn't considered an "Advanced Rule". In
:games based off of just the core rulebook, sammies could always buy
:new cyber, and mages could learn new spells they didn't know before,
:but for a physad to advance, the Grimoire was a required book.

The comparison to buying spells is apt- when buying power points, the
adpet has not increased his magic power, he just has more uses it in more
ways.
Obviously, intiation is not in the basic SR3 book, so its good that
SR3 lists some way to improve physad magic powers. However, even if you
have rules for it, itiation is not alwys possible (or shouldn't be).
Sometimes, just paying the 20 karma will be easier- its automatic.
Maybe you just don't know how to intiate. Maybe you don't want to raise
your magic rating, because then you risk magic loss more often. Maybe
there are other reasons (GM limits or whatever). <Munchkin> Heck, at some
point, the 20 karma for a power point will be cheaper than intiation!
</munchkin>

Mongoose
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From:	Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Sun, 14 Feb 1999 04:08:25 +0100

Message no. 15 You wrote:

[>] The comparison to buying spells is apt- when buying
power points, the
[>] adpet has not increased his magic power, he just has more
uses it in more
[>] ways.
[>] Obviously, intiation is not in the basic SR3 book, so
its good that
[>] SR3 lists some way to improve physad magic powers.
However, even if you
[>] have rules for it, itiation is not alwys possible (or
shouldn't be).
[>] Sometimes, just paying the 20 karma will be easier-
its automatic.
[>] Maybe you just don't know how to intiate. Maybe you
don't want to raise
[>] your magic rating, because then you risk magic loss more
often. Maybe
[>] there are other reasons (GM limits or whatever).
<Munchkin> Heck, at some
[>] point, the 20 karma for a power point will be cheaper
than intiation!
[>] </munchkin>

This does mean that the physad's powers are no longer limited by
his magic rating, he just buys powerpoint with karma.
What about magic loss then??? Previously the physad would loose
some of his powers, but now the magic attribute and the physad powers
seem no longer related to each other!?

Sven :-\

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Sun, 14 Feb 1999 03:53:52 -0600

Message no. 16 : [>] Obviously, intiation is not in the basic SR3 book, so
:its good that
: [>] SR3 lists some way to improve physad magic powers.
:However, even if you
: [>] have rules for it, itiation is not alwys possible (or
:shouldn't be).
: [>] Sometimes, just paying the 20 karma will be easier-
:its automatic.

: This does mean that the physad's powers are no longer limited by
:his magic rating, he just buys powerpoint with karma.
: What about magic loss then??? Previously the physad would loose
:some of his powers, but now the magic attribute and the physad powers
:seem no longer related to each other!?

An adept's max power rating in any power is limited to magic rating,
which will have an effect. In addition, adepts do loose a power point
evry time they loose a magic point (afaik).

Mongoose

From:	Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:07:16 +0100

Message no. 17 Mongoose wrote:
>: This does mean that the physad's powers are no longer limited
by
>:his magic rating, he just buys powerpoint with karma.
>: What about magic loss then??? Previously the physad would
loose
>:some of his powers, but now the magic attribute and the physad
powers
>:seem no longer related to each other!?

> An adept's max power rating in any power is limited to
magic rating,
>which will have an effect. In addition, adepts do loose a
power point
>evry time they loose a magic point (afaik).

I am a bit confused:
Does this mean that an adept buying a PowerPoint would still
need to get
initiated to raise his Magic attribute?
This would become very expensive (ad: karma needed!), wouldn't
it?

Sven :-\

From:	Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:38:59 -0500

Message no. 18 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:07 PM 2/15/99 +0100, Sven De Herdt wrote:
> I am a bit confused:
> Does this mean that an adept buying a PowerPoint would still
>need to get
> initiated to raise his Magic attribute?
> This would become very expensive (ad: karma needed!), wouldn't
>it?

Alright, here's the explanation.
PhysAdepts start the game with a Magic Attribute of 6, and 6 Power
Points.

Anything that decreases the Magic Attribute will also decrease the
number of Power Points by the same amount.

However, you can buy aditional Power Points. The number of Power
Points a PhysAdept has is not limited by the Magic attribute. An Adept
can have 7, 8, or even more Power Points, while their Magic Attribute
remains at 6. The Adept is no longer limited to their Magic attribute
for how many points they can have to spend on powers, as in previous
editions.

The best way to look at buying extra Power Points is that it isn't an
increase in the Adept's power
(The Magic Attribute doesn't change) but instead that the Adept is
learning how to use the same power level in new ways.

As for initiation, someone heard at Gen-Con that when a PhysAdept
initiates, both their Magic Attribute and Power Points increase.
Supposedly, any permanent change in an Adept's Magic attribute in
either direction will result in a loss or gain of Power Points.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:50:55 EST

Message no. 19 In a message dated 99-02-15 10:40:30 EST, you write:

> However, you can buy aditional Power Points. The number of Power
> Points a PhysAdept has is not limited by the Magic attribute. An Adept
> can have 7, 8, or even more Power Points, while their Magic Attribute
> remains at 6. The Adept is no longer limited to their Magic attribute
> for how many points they can have to spend on powers, as in previous
> editions.
>
> The best way to look at buying extra Power Points is that it isn't an
> increase in the Adept's power
> (The Magic Attribute doesn't change) but instead that the Adept is
> learning how to use the same power level in new ways.
>

I dont think this answeres the question that was asked, at least not directly,
so et me take a stab at it.

Basicly, Yes, you can buy more power points. The LIMIT described by the Magic
attribute is on how much mojo you can put into any one power. Therefore, an
adept who only buys power points and never initiates would have a large number
of different powers at up to level 6 (although I do belive that some powers
have a lower limit).

Now. if an adepts magic rating changes, several things are going to happen.
First, the adept would gain or lose a power point based on which way the magic
attribute changed. However, for a non initiated adept this could be a
disaster after a time, as it could force the magic rating below the level of
one or more of his powers, causing him to loose those as well.

On the other side of the coin, if an adept DOES initiate, not only does he get
another power point, but more importantly, that increase in his Magic
attribute opens up a new level of power he can acchieve.

I should also point out that these statments are a synthasis from what I Read
in the books and my understanding of what ya'll here on the list are saying.

From:	Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:16:22 -0500

Message no. 20 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:50 AM 2/15/99 -0500, Starrngr@***.com wrote:
>I dont think this answeres the question that was asked, at least not
directly,
>so et me take a stab at it.

How about this answer then: If the Magic attribute undergoes a
permanent change, then Power Points will also change acordingly.
However, if Power Points change on their own (i.e.: the Adept buys
more), that change is not reflected in the Magic attribute.

In previous editions, Adepts bought their powers by directly spending
their Magic Attribute. Because of this, the sum of the points spent on
the Adept's powers always added up to the Magic attribute. This is NOT
always the case under third edition, because the Adept is now spending
Power Points, not Magic attribute.

Permanent changes in an Adept's Magic attribute will also trigger a
change in the number of Power Points, but that is not the only way the
number of Power Points can change.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:15:54 -0600

Message no. 21 : >: This does mean that the physad's powers are no longer limited
:by
: >:his magic rating, he just buys powerpoint with karma.
: >: What about magic loss then??? Previously the physad would
:loose
: >:some of his powers, but now the magic attribute and the physad
:powers
: >:seem no longer related to each other!?
:
: > An adept's max power rating in any power is limited to
:magic rating,
: >which will have an effect. In addition, adepts do loose a
:power point
: >evry time they loose a magic point (afaik).
:
: I am a bit confused:
: Does this mean that an adept buying a PowerPoint would still
:need to get
: initiated to raise his Magic attribute?

Initiating would raise their magic attribute (and, it seems, give them
a power point. Spending 20 karma JUST gives you a power point. You can
still purchase powers with that point, as long as no single power reaches
a rating higher than your magic rating.

For example, and adept with a magic rating of 5 (sue me, I like a
little cyber) has improved ability (rifles) 4 and Increased reflexes 2.
(Guess what cyber he's got...)
Said adept spends 20 karma for a power point, and wants to raise
improved ability (rifles). He spends .5 PP, raising it to 5, and can not
raise it further. The other .5 PP can be spent on any other power with a
rating under 5.
Note that for this purpose, Killing Hands has a "rating" of 1-4.

: This would become very expensive (ad: karma needed!), wouldn't
:it?

Well, if initiation stays at the same cost as in the G2, and grants a
PP, it will usually be the better deal, karma wise, than just buying a PP.
Then again, in the basic SR3 rules, it is often cheaper for an adept to
improve an attribute or ability by purchasing power points than it is for
them to spend normal karma doing so.

Mongoose

From:	Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:24:59 +0100

Message no. 22 Mongoose wrote:
> For example, and adept with a magic rating of 5 (sue me,
I like a
> little cyber) has improved ability (rifles) 4 and Increased
reflexes 2.
> (Guess what cyber he's got...)

"He who relies on mankind technologies, will be bound by it.
Only he who has complete confidence and trust, will KNOW 'true'
magic!"

Alpha.

From:	Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:52:22 -0400

Message no. 23 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Sven De Herdt."
]Mongoose wrote:
]>For example, and adept with a magic rating of 5 (sue me, ]I like a
]>little cyber) has improved ability (rifles) 4 and Increased reflexes 2.
]>(Guess what cyber he's got...)
]
]"He who relies on mankind technologies, will be bound by it.
]Only he who has complete confidence and trust, will KNOW 'true'
]magic!"
]
]Alpha.

"I love it when my opponents limit themselves. It means
I got 'em half-beat already."
--Billy Orleans, cyber-mage

I'm with Mongoose on this one. Use every advantage you can.
The above mentioned character, my most used PC, is a sorceror
adept (in 2nd Ed. parlance) with Skillwires Plus, a Smartlink II,
and a Trauma Damper (a mage's best friend). He's all that and a
bag of dynamite. You call him a munchkin PC? I say,
"Whatever." I roleplay him well, he still can get kicked around,
and we all have fun. Violating archtypes is good. It keeps 'em
guessing.

Scott
-----------------------------------------------------
"Fragile, timid, with natural good manners,
he was, however, better suited for war than
for government."
_One Hundred Years Of Solitude_
Gabriel Garcia Marquez

From:	Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:15:49 +0100

Message no. 24 > -----Original Message-----
You wrote:

> ]"He who relies on mankind technologies, will be bound by it.
> ]Only he who has complete confidence and trust, will KNOW
'true'
> ]magic!"
> ]
> ]Alpha.

> "I love it when my opponents limit themselves. It means
> I got 'em half-beat already."
> --Billy Orleans, cyber-mage

"Mankind created technology to expand their possibilities and
powers,
but it is technology that creates boundaries. Thus mankind
restricts
himself to cross these limitations.
Only magic can guide and help mankind to exceed any
restriction."
-- Alpha, speaking the words of Wolf, the Pathfinder.

PS. I completely agree with both of you that limited cyberware
opens a world of possibilities for magic users, but that is not
the
way Alpha sees it.
Sven ;-)

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:02:11 -0600

Message no. 25 : "Mankind created technology to expand their possibilities and
:powers,
: but it is technology that creates boundaries. Thus mankind
:restricts
: himself to cross these limitations.
: Only magic can guide and help mankind to exceed any
:restriction."
: -- Alpha, speaking the words of Wolf, the Pathfinder.

"Scag, what a cheezing gasbag. Shells should all kick and do us a
favor. Go play with you wanking pixie dust, and leave the pixles to us."
-- 1010011010 , Otaku

From:	Steadfast laughingman@*******.de
Subject:	Cyber-Mages (was: A perfectly acceptable...)
Date:	Fri, 19 Feb 1999 03:45:23 +0100

Message no. 26 And so it came to happen that NercoLythe@***.com wrote:

> Okay I don't really know how this works so bare with me now.
>
> My essence is 6 an magic att. is also 6. Now if my essence changes does my
> magic change also? Can my magic go higher than my essense rating?

If you are magically active, your Magicattribute changes accordingly with
your essence. In addition does Initiation influence your Magicattribute in
such, as Initiation gives one point per Initiationlevel > 0. If your essence
does fall/rise, you have to recalculate your Magicattribute. You have to
round the essencerating (like 1.2 ;o)) to the lowest full number, thus you
always round down. After that you apply your Initiationlevel (if you have
one greater than zero) to that number, subtract every single Magicattribute
loss you ever encountered and there you have the new Magicrating. For that I
advise to keep track of your Magic losses (grin) and of course that of your
players if you ar GM.
Note: To date/2060 known are many methods of decreasing the essencerating,
but actually raising is not possible. Exception (there always is one, isn't
it?) are the temporarly raisings of essence through consumption of other
beeings essence of the various critters known today/2060.
Note also that Initiation rules are not the actual ones, in the near future
they will most likely change in a way as the new supplement MiTS will come
out (Hopefully more soon than later).
So canon says, as always, if it not pleases you change it.
--
__________________________________________
---> Steadfast
Selfproclaimed protector of Gerber
BABY's
Mmwahahahahaar...
"I have 'grosse bumm' in my Pocket!
Yes, a real 'GROSSE BUUMM'!"
German translation for Savalette Guardian.
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