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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:58:14 +0100
One of my players has been bugging me for weeks now about the connection
between cyberware and the user's body tissue.

It seems that in Into The Shadows (the 7-story anthology which he
borrowed from me) it's mentioned that there's some kind of conductor gel
between the cyber and the user's nervous system, to transmit the signals
from the nerves to the electronics controlling the cyberware. Now I have
no idea because it's been several years since I read that book, but he
keeps going on about it and claims he chatted (in a WWW chatroom) with
someone with the nick "1-2" or "1-1/2" or something like that (anybody
know this person?) and he/she agreed with him.

However, I've told him a hundred times already that novels aren't canon,
and when it comes to how cyberware works, I follow Shadowtech, since that
at least appears to have been written by someone with some RL knowledge
about such things. ST doesn't mention such a gel when I skimmed through it
looking for it, and I remarked to him that there wouldn't _need_ to be,
because there are lots of ways in which this could be done. Then, of
course, he asked me how.
In sort, I need you all to help me come up with as many plausible ways
as possible in wich cyberware could be connected to a person's nervous
system, preferably _not_ using a gel (though any other kind of conducting
medium is not a problem -- he knows so little about physics and chemistry
that he probably wouldn't even notice the similarities :)

Oh yeah, the reason he is so insistent on this is because he wants to
design a spell that prevents cyberware from working. At first he wanted to
electrocute it, but then he found out about this alledged gel and decided
that would be much cooler.

I haven't told him the obvious solution: design a spell that stops
cyberware from working, without really bothering to explain _how_ it does
it -- after all, does Powerbolt explain exactly how it damages the target?
If he wants to do things the hard way, I'm happy to let him :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I believe in death after life.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 2
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:48:28 +1100
> In sort, I need you all to help me come up with as many plausible ways
> as possible in wich cyberware could be connected to a person's nervous
> system, preferably _not_ using a gel (though any other kind of conducting
> medium is not a problem -- he knows so little about physics and chemistry
> that he probably wouldn't even notice the similarities :)

Sounds like my cue. Basically, there are two main interface types in the
nervous system - chemical and electrical. A nerve impulse is triggered
by a stimulus (say, light hitting your retina) and travels, as a wave of
electrical potential change (don't ask for details else my next email
will be MUCH longer) down the length of the nerve cell.

When it reaches the end of the nerve cell (where it interfaces with the
next nerve) one of two things will happen, depending on what sort of
cell it is:

1) The electrical wave will trigger the release of chemicals called
'neurotransmitters' from the end of the nerve cell. These
neurotransmitters spread to other cells and then trigger an electrical
change in that cell, which then ... etc etc all the way to the brain or
appropriate organ. (The neurotransmitters may work on the same cell, a
number of nearby cells, or may travel through the body until they reach
the target organ.)

2) If the next cell is close enough the electrical wave may jump via a
'gap junction' to the next cell and continue on its merry way. Yadda,
yadda, insert fork into toaster at own risk.

So, there's Neuroscience 101. Extrapolate at will. :)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Founding member of THE NADBUSTERS!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:53:26 -0600
On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Gurth wrote:

> It seems that in Into The Shadows (the 7-story anthology which he
> borrowed from me) it's mentioned that there's some kind of conductor gel
> between the cyber and the user's nervous system, to transmit the signals
> from the nerves to the electronics controlling the cyberware.
> Oh yeah, the reason he is so insistent on this is because he wants to
> design a spell that prevents cyberware from working. At first he wanted to
> electrocute it, but then he found out about this alledged gel and decided
> that would be much cooler.

Sounds like he wants to recreate a spell from the book. It was cast by a
character that MUST be a high level initiate from the description of what
she does. After surounding herself in a nimbus of fire and walking down
the street with cars blowing up in her wake she released a spell that
stoped cyberware from working because it "deionized the conductive gel in
the cyber/neural interfaces" Then she healed the Wolf of major injuries
virtualy instantaniously. Later in the book Wolf stops her from casting
the anti-cyberware spell because of its little side affect. Ya see it
doesnt just target one person, it seemed to work on EVERYONE in a circular
area effect centered on the caster so if you got freindly streat sams in
the fight.....

O by the way she happened to be a suscessfull run away from a Corp
high level reaserch team with a 2.5 million nuyen price on her head and a
dragon for a boyfreind(haselich or something like that, its been a week:))
She described the spell as the ultimate end product of her reaserch at the
Corp. Add that all up and i doubt its a spell a street mage will come up
with.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 4
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:53:20 +0000
Gurth <gurth@******.NL> once wrote,

(snipped)

> In sort, I need you all to help me come up with as many plausible ways
> as possible in wich cyberware could be connected to a person's nervous
> system, preferably _not_ using a gel (though any other kind of conducting
> medium is not a problem -- he knows so little about physics and chemistry
> that he probably wouldn't even notice the similarities :)

Last time I looked (In Shadowtech, as you mentionned), Cyberware
connection with the central nervous system was made through, IIRC, two
type of nanites... One to install the basic electronic components...the
other worked the following way:

First, the nanite is composed of a molecule, or a small flake of gold (an
excellent, durable conductor), and is genetically programmed to create an
internal poison. The nanite would attach between the nerves and the
cyber-connections. The internal poison would then kill the nanite,
disolving it, leaving behind a gold plating, which acted as the link between
the two systems...

Elegant, simple...

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Shootyz Groove - "Respect"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 5
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:05:33 -0600
On 01/24/98 11:53:20 you wrote:
>
>Gurth <gurth@******.NL> once wrote,
>
>(snipped)
>
>> In sort, I need you all to help me come up with as many plausible ways
>> as possible in wich cyberware could be connected to a person's nervous
>> system, preferably _not_ using a gel (though any other kind of conducting
>> medium is not a problem -- he knows so little about physics and chemistry
>> that he probably wouldn't even notice the similarities :)
>
>Last time I looked (In Shadowtech, as you mentionned), Cyberware
>connection with the central nervous system was made through, IIRC, two
>type of nanites... One to install the basic electronic components...the
>other worked the following way:
>
>First, the nanite is composed of a molecule, or a small flake of gold (an
>excellent, durable conductor), and is genetically programmed to create an
>internal poison. The nanite would attach between the nerves and the
>cyber-connections. The internal poison would then kill the nanite,
>disolving it, leaving behind a gold plating, which acted as the link between
>the two systems...
>
>Elegant, simple...
>
And that makes the spell that attacks cyberware oh so simple as well; it's just a Health
spell
that makes the target allergic to gold temporarily....(grin)

Argent

Rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
Message no. 6
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:26:16 -0500
However, I've told him a hundred times already that novels aren't canon,
and when it comes to how cyberware works, I follow Shadowtech, since that
at least appears to have been written by someone with some RL knowledge
about such things. ST doesn't mention such a gel when I skimmed through it
looking for it, and I remarked to him that there wouldn't _need_ to be,
because there are lots of ways in which this could be done. Then, of
course, he asked me how.

I can't really help you on the how it works, but it's a simple matter to
explain away the gel.
(Yes, that was mentioned in Into the Shadows.)

Just remind him that the story using that gel, and that spell was set in
2050!
Since then, there have been MASSIVE upgrades in SOTA re: cyberware.

Maybe back then the gel was necessary (I always imagined it as a sort of
artificial mesentary, or cartilage) but with today's cyber, it's outdated,
so sure, he can design a spell to nuke that gel, but it's not gonna be too
effective against many people.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I am 32 flavors and then some."
Message no. 7
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:08:26 -0500
>In sort, I need you all to help me come up with as many plausible ways
>as possible in wich cyberware could be connected to a person's nervous
>system, preferably _not_ using a gel (though any other kind of conducting
>medium is not a problem -- he knows so little about physics and chemistry
>that he probably wouldn't even notice the similarities :)

How about the squid interface from Strange days for starters. That should
recifty the problems a bit. Just tell him unless he wants to get into
quantum physics then you're safe.

>Oh yeah, the reason he is so insistent on this is because he wants to
>design a spell that prevents cyberware from working. At first he wanted to
>electrocute it, but then he found out about this alledged gel and decided
>that would be much cooler.

Sounds like a old player of mine. He wouldn't happen to play a dark one
named Hunter would he? ;-)


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 8
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:18:56 -0500
On 24 Jan 98 at 12:26, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> Maybe back then the gel was necessary (I always imagined it as a
> sort of artificial mesentary, or cartilage) but with today's cyber,
> it's outdated, so sure, he can design a spell to nuke that gel, but
> it's not gonna be too effective against many people.

Tinner, I love the way you think. You have a special knack to
accomodate and screw your players at the same time. :)

You should write a book... :)

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net====
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
=================================================================
Actual Newspaper Headline #45
Lansing Residents Can Drop Off Trees

Check out my webpage for the others!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:39:29 +0000
Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM> once wrote,

(snipped)

> >First, the nanite is composed of a molecule, or a small flake of gold (an
> >excellent, durable conductor), and is genetically programmed to create an
> >internal poison. The nanite would attach between the nerves and the
> >cyber-connections. The internal poison would then kill the nanite,
> >disolving it, leaving behind a gold plating, which acted as the link between
> >the two systems...
> >
> >Elegant, simple...
> >
> And that makes the spell that attacks cyberware oh so simple as well; it's just a
Health spell
> that makes the target allergic to gold temporarily....(grin)

Now now now now...come on. Damn. Huh... A spell that makes a person
alergic to something... how about air? No no no..let's make it water! Yes!

Or..a spell to supresses electricity! Remove a person's nervous
impulses..yes! Death in a few minutes... Why, you don't need all those
nifty Hellblasts at all, neh? We'll just invent a spell to stop heart
muscles.

Even though I'm as open as the next guy to new ideas...a line has to be
drawn somewhere...

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Race - "Race"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 10
From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:58:11 -0600
Nanites seem like the best way. In fact, the only way, as any
other, more macroscopic level manipulation would not be capable of the
level of precision required in order to join the nerve endings in any sort
of practical way. The nanites probably don't last, they just hook all the
cables (microscopic stereo buffs? :) ) and "die" to be excreted by the
user's body like any other inert substance.
I do recall the gel thing, but it seemed kinda dumb at the time
(how is the gel selective enough to differentiate electrical impulses from
one nerve strand from another w/ no signal crossbleed? If it is equally
conductive across it's entire surface, an electric charge induced at one
point would diffuse across the whole mass (cf. gauss'es law of perfect
conductors (wow, physics 316 actually came in handy for once!)), thus
triggering effectively every response in the limb. Bad time to pick your
nose if you have a pistol finger...).
Yeah, to disable the cyberware, just have a "EMP surge" spell or
something. Static ball maybe? That'd zot just about everything. Or for
the mean nasty toxic shaman in the group: "Dissolve nervous tissue."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Michael Orion Jackson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TAMS Class of 1996/UT Class of 199?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~2112 Guadalupe, Rm. 213; Austin, Tx 78705 (The Goodall-Wooten)~~~~~~~
------------------<"Love kills the demon."~Mickey
Knox>--------------------
Message no. 11
From: Kristling Ravenwing <kristling@*******.CROSSWINDS.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:30:20 -0500
> On 24 Jan 98 at 12:26, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> > Maybe back then the gel was necessary (I always imagined it as a
> > sort of artificial mesentary, or cartilage) but with today's cyber,
> > it's outdated, so sure, he can design a spell to nuke that gel, but
> > it's not gonna be too effective against many people.
>
> Tinner, I love the way you think. You have a special knack to
> accomodate and screw your players at the same time. :)
>
> You should write a book... :)
>
OH, GOODIe!
Teach me how, master Tinner!
>>>>>["What do I look like, a miniture spellcaster with wings
specialising
in illusions.... hey, wait a sec..."
--Josha, Kristling's not so witty Windling Earthdawn illusionist bud.
Reach me at kristling@*******.crosswinds.net
ICQ UIN: 6642462
www.crosswind.com/toronto/~kristling/ should soon hold my webpage.]<<<<<
--Kristling (the Weird) Ravenwing </>
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:18:16 +0100
The Bookworm said on 10:53/24 Jan 98...

> Sounds like he wants to recreate a spell from the book. It was cast by a
> character that MUST be a high level initiate from the description of what
> she does. After surounding herself in a nimbus of fire and walking down
> the street with cars blowing up in her wake

Ah yes, now I remember. That's in one of the last two stories, with Wolf
and Kid Stealth in them. Like I said, it's been years since I read it...

> O by the way she happened to be a suscessfull run away from a Corp
> high level reaserch team with a 2.5 million nuyen price on her head and a
> dragon for a boyfreind(haselich or something like that, its been a week:))
> She described the spell as the ultimate end product of her reaserch at the
> Corp. Add that all up and i doubt its a spell a street mage will come up
> with.

Probably not something he'd design by himself in a few days, no. Another
reason why I'll probably disallow it unless he comes up with an
explanation I find well and truly believable (within SR's framework of
rules and background) -- knowing him, I could probably just outright say
"no" and save myself the anguish of having to listen to his theories ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I believe in death after life.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:18:16 +0100
Tony Rabiola said on 11:05/24 Jan 98...

> And that makes the spell that attacks cyberware oh so simple as well; it's just a
Health spell
> that makes the target allergic to gold temporarily....(grin)

Funny you should say that... I somehow don't think he'd find that very
amusing, if you know what one of his other characters was like: a rigger
with lots of cyberware and an allergy to gold (he had a habit of making
chars with allergies which he thought wouldn't trouble him), so while
talking about that char to someone else, I suddenly remembered something
from Shadowtech... *GM grin* It took him a whole evening to figure out why
his character had a rash over his entire body :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I believe in death after life.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:18:17 +0100
Lady Jestyr said on 23:48/24 Jan 98...

> Sounds like my cue.

I thought you would respond, yes... :)

> Basically, there are two main interface types in the nervous system -
> chemical and electrical. A nerve impulse is triggered by a stimulus
> (say, light hitting your retina) and travels, as a wave of electrical
> potential change (don't ask for details else my next email will be MUCH
> longer) down the length of the nerve cell.

That's what I already knew too, and basically what I tried to get through
his skull first time round -- if a cell gives off an electrical or
chemical signal, a piece of electronics can measure that and make the
cyberware respond. The player's reply was asking how the signal got to the
electronics, if not through a gel... Argh!

His problem (I _have_ to get this off my chest, sorry :) is that once he
has an idea in his head, it takes WAY too much effort to get it out of it,
even if I can easily prove it wrong -- he just changes it to something
else that's not right too but that does somehow (by stretching the
imagination) incorporates my arguments of why he was wrong...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I believe in death after life.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 15
From: "Panther`" <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:30:12 -0800
Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> When it reaches the end of the nerve cell (where it interfaces with the
> next nerve) one of two things will happen, depending on what sort of
> cell it is:
>
> 1) The electrical wave will trigger the release of chemicals called
> 'neurotransmitters' from the end of the nerve cell. These
> neurotransmitters spread to other cells and then trigger an electrical
> change in that cell, which then ... etc etc all the way to the brain or
> appropriate organ. (The neurotransmitters may work on the same cell, a
> number of nearby cells, or may travel through the body until they reach
> the target organ.)
>
> 2) If the next cell is close enough the electrical wave may jump via a
> 'gap junction' to the next cell and continue on its merry way. Yadda,
> yadda, insert fork into toaster at own risk.

Ok, so are you saying that for this 'gap junction' thing to happen you
need:

(a) a certain type of nerve cell, or

(b) the nerve cell to be within a certain unspecified distance to the
transmitting
neuron?

I've been wondering about the human-cyber interface myself for over a
week now, although more to increase my bg knowledge/understanding of the
HOWs of the SR universe...

Panther
--
Death becomes us all, in the end...live while you can, because nothing
is trivial
------------------------------------------
Goth Code 3.1a GoNQ1$ TJtYzz7 PEShMo B7/23 cDbr-c6 V4 M3 ZGoMe C6m a20=
n5DF b54 H179 g4L1?97A mEa1@** w6T v4M r5BSP p45555Zz D66!* h4 sM10n
SrNy k6p N0297CWH RsSp2 LusMI1
---------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1562/
Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:03:11 EST
In a message dated 98-01-25 06:20:16 EST, gurth@******.NL writes:

> His problem (I _have_ to get this off my chest, sorry :) is that once he
> has an idea in his head, it takes WAY too much effort to get it out of it,
> even if I can easily prove it wrong -- he just changes it to something
> else that's not right too but that does somehow (by stretching the
> imagination) incorporates my arguments of why he was wrong...
>
AH, the proverbial Loophole finder....no, that's not quite right either I
guess...the "Legal Pragmatist" might work better. Wants to know the
"finite
details of the rules so he can find the best solution towards undoing them..."


Lady Jestyr, if you're still paying attention...what, in your opinion, would
be correct about the suggestion of "a piece of cyberware being able to measure
the synaptic response" in relation to the complexity of such cyberware as
Encephalon and/or Tactical Computer? What would then, by contrast, make it
incorrect?

Its a very serious question...

-K
Message no. 17
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:14:44 EST
In a message dated 98-01-25 07:25:43 EST, qmilton@**.NET writes:

> a) a certain type of nerve cell, or

I believe this one is more accurate....

> (b) the nerve cell to be within a certain unspecified distance to the
> transmitting
> neuron?

And this one is not...

> I've been wondering about the human-cyber interface myself for over a
> week now, although more to increase my bg knowledge/understanding of the
> HOWs of the SR universe...
>
> Panther
>
A suggestion from my part would be to consider human anatomy and/or human
physiology (great courses, the group here hated me taking them)...IMHO, and
Gurth won't like this probably (shrug), but the "neurotransmissive gel" is
something that you -might- need in order to obtain truly consistent cybernetic
interfacing. The gel is of a material that would convert biochemically
produced current (bio-electricity) into machine-interlacable current. The gel
itself would be contained within a sheath -very- similar to the myelin
sheathing already found in the human (and presumably metahuman) body.

What it does suggest is that the (meta) human body is now mappable in a
complete sense within the SR universe. That would indicate even a method of
determining bioelectric "static" and it's likely pathways of travel along
given routes. Without such knowledge, the ability to cancel out information
and/or augment it would be absolutely impossible, IMHO, especially at the
level of current cybertechnology within SR (or Cyberpunk for that matter).

Now what I would find interesting is the connectivity with directly "Neural
Cyberware", like the Encephalon, Datajack, VCR, and Tactical Computer. These
kind of interfaces are directly located within the cerebral cortex and/or
cerebellum (in the case of the VCR for Instinctive Response Coordination).
The mind doesn't have "synaptic threadwork" like so much of the body as it
possesses "clusters" of synaptic material that are interlinked by a
neurosynaptic network and encased in oxygen-rich neurosynaptic fluid (forgot
the name for the fluid, I cannot believe this). The "cluster" organization
would be fun just to see in RL.

-K
Message no. 18
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:18:26 EST
In a message dated 98-01-24 19:10:54 EST, orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU writes:

> Nanites seem like the best way. In fact, the only way, as any
> other, more macroscopic level manipulation would not be capable of the
> level of precision required in order to join the nerve endings in any sort
> of practical way. The nanites probably don't last, they just hook all the
> cables (microscopic stereo buffs? :) ) and "die" to be excreted by the
> user's body like any other inert substance.

That is actually the method of implantation of cyberware as well as some of
the work for Bioware...as spoken in Shadowtech even...

> I do recall the gel thing, but it seemed kinda dumb at the time
> (how is the gel selective enough to differentiate electrical impulses from
> one nerve strand from another w/ no signal crossbleed? If it is equally
> conductive across it's entire surface, an electric charge induced at one
> point would diffuse across the whole mass (cf. gauss'es law of perfect
> conductors (wow, physics 316 actually came in handy for once!)), thus
> triggering effectively every response in the limb. Bad time to pick your
> nose if you have a pistol finger...).

I sent out a different post concerning this, it contained how this gel worked
and what it's likely purpose really is. You may find it interesting...

> Yeah, to disable the cyberware, just have a "EMP surge" spell or
> something. Static ball maybe? That'd zot just about everything. Or for
> the mean nasty toxic shaman in the group: "Dissolve nervous tissue."

Oh yeah, I've seen this done actually, even without great details...
-K
Message no. 19
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:43:39 -0500
About ten years ago at Vanderbuilt U. there was a professor experimenting
with measuring and recording signals on individual nerves. At the time he
would cut the nerve and thread it through a conductive ring. It worked much
like an amp meter that clamps arround a cable.

He was developing a micro clamp so he wouldn't have to cut the nerve. With
the nanites discussed earlier, it would be possible to build the loop
arround the nerve. Connecting the loops back to the cyber ware is then
handled by more nanites.

This handles getting information from the nerve to the cyberware. The
reverse might be acomplished by either introducing chemicals in the nerve
gap, or possibly by inducing a charge in the nerve.
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:58:45 +0100
Ereskanti said on 10:03/25 Jan 98...

> AH, the proverbial Loophole finder....no, that's not quite right either I
> guess...the "Legal Pragmatist" might work better. Wants to know the
"finite
> details of the rules so he can find the best solution towards undoing them..."

Not really... More someone who reads too many popular books and watches
too many popular movies, and then wants things like that in the game as
well. A few examples: a weapon that shoots about 6 darts with monowire
strung between them (he has a monowire obsession...); something that
shoots a monowire to each side to set up a quick trap (much of like one of
Batman's toys, but with monowire); a staff with a taser, unfolding blades,
a gas sprayer, and the aforementioned dart-net-gun in it; etc.

The problem is that I try to aim for a bit of realism in the game, and
that I don't _like_ toys like this -- I keep thinking to myself "Why
doesn't het just buy a Predator like everyon else and be done with all
this bullshit?" :)

> Lady Jestyr, if you're still paying attention...what, in your opinion,
> would be correct about the suggestion of "a piece of cyberware being
> able to measure the synaptic response" in relation to the complexity of
> such cyberware as Encephalon and/or Tactical Computer?

You mean you measure the signals from/to a nerve and by that deuce what
piece of cyberware is attached?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Nothing is empty.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 21
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:56:44 EST
In a message dated 98-01-26 07:01:13 EST, gurth@******.NL writes:

> The problem is that I try to aim for a bit of realism in the game, and
> that I don't _like_ toys like this -- I keep thinking to myself "Why
> doesn't het just buy a Predator like everyon else and be done with all
> this bullshit?" :)

Hey Gurth, just be careful, someone is running around the nets in Britain
right now and tattle-taling on any who uses such language...we got a "Write
Up" report, as did a BUNCH of people in the UK and elsewhere here....all
because of a "bad language usage" (someone called someone else a commie I
think). The net censorship stuff is getting WAY out of proportion...

To the topic, because he wants to be unique of course... ;)

> > Lady Jestyr, if you're still paying attention...what, in your opinion,
> > would be correct about the suggestion of "a piece of cyberware being
> > able to measure the synaptic response" in relation to the complexity of
> > such cyberware as Encephalon and/or Tactical Computer?
>
> You mean you measure the signals from/to a nerve and by that deuce what
> piece of cyberware is attached?

I believe I was actually looking for a way/the way that SR "fictional
mechanics" would actually track a piece of cyberware and/or it's signals.
Damn, I am finding it difficult to get the meaning across here...I was trying
to figure out some way to explain how the connectivity actually occurred.
Moving a single muscle cell requires a single neural cell signal. Moving a
cluster of them requires a series of collective neural cells to be "firing" at
the same time. Massive coordination (such as getting a drink of water with a
glass from the kitchen) would require more.

How on earth does the "machine" understand all of this activity?

Does this make more sense?
-K
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:14:24 +0100
Ereskanti said on 8:56/26 Jan 98...

> Hey Gurth, just be careful, someone is running around the nets in Britain
> right now and tattle-taling on any who uses such language...we got a "Write
> Up" report

"We" as in the ShadowRN mailing list, or you and some people you know
outside of this list?

At any rate, I'm in a country where there's not much censorship of any
kind, especially not on the language people use, though unfortunately the
computer serving list isn't anymore...

> as did a BUNCH of people in the UK and elsewhere here....all because of
> a "bad language usage" (someone called someone else a commie I think).

<sarcasm>Woah, lock 'em up and chuck away the key!</sarcasm>

> The net censorship stuff is getting WAY out of proportion...

Agreed :(


Back on-topic:

> I believe I was actually looking for a way/the way that SR "fictional
> mechanics" would actually track a piece of cyberware and/or it's signals.
> Damn, I am finding it difficult to get the meaning across here...I was trying
> to figure out some way to explain how the connectivity actually occurred.
> Moving a single muscle cell requires a single neural cell signal. Moving a
> cluster of them requires a series of collective neural cells to be "firing"
at
> the same time. Massive coordination (such as getting a drink of water with a
> glass from the kitchen) would require more.
>
> How on earth does the "machine" understand all of this activity?

Maybe because the connection is made to nerves that aren't normally used
in combination, but by training you can learn to control them together
(for example, pulling your hand up and pulling it down at the same time)
and when you do, the cyberware is activated?

> Does this make more sense?

More than the first attempt did anyway :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
People who live in glass houses ...
... should turn out the lights before they undress.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 23
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware <-> tissue connecton
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:36:55 -0500
On Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:18:56 -0500 Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET> writes:
>On 24 Jan 98 at 12:26, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
>> Maybe back then the gel was necessary (I always imagined it as a
>> sort of artificial mesentary, or cartilage) but with today's cyber,
>> it's outdated, so sure, he can design a spell to nuke that gel, but
>> it's not gonna be too effective against many people.
>
>Tinner, I love the way you think. You have a special knack to
>accomodate and screw your players at the same time. :)
>
>You should write a book... :)


Or he could teach a class...

RP 211 - "Screwing Over Players and Influencing People" :)

Canthros, lurking because he's running out of time for this stuff:/

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