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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:32:20 -0400
> > Whoa...back the truck up. The what? Have you ever played Dark
Conspiracy?
> > If you're going to say that DC is a rip off of Sr, then perhaps you
better
> > mention how Sr is a rip off of Cyberpunk and AD&D. Or are you just
> > mindlessly rude?
> And DC is definitely not a ripoff of SR anyway, that's plain silly.

Yep, I played a LOT of DC when it first came out, and it left me cold.
Poor systems "borrowed" from T2000, lack of any useful Psionics for PC's
and the need to buy several sourcebooks to actually make the game playable
left me quite disillusioned with what could have been a great game.

You mean to say that you don't find it slightly curious that GDW dumped DC
onto the market almost immediately after SR became hot? Have you read
Stackpole's "Fiddleback" Trilogy set in the DC world? It's VERY similar to
SR IMO.

Oh, and SR is actually a ripoff of Cyberpunk, and Tolkien, get it right!
;-)

Did I ever say that being a ripoff was a BAD thing? No.

On the whole I thought that DC had a LOT of potential, but was hindered by
a shabby rules system, and a lack of support.

Oh yeah, one more thing. I'm never "mindlessly" anything.
My rudeness is carefully thought out just so as to give seizures to
hypersensitive people defending dead games.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on the merits of DC. It died, SR
lives. Nuff said.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"FREE FRANCIS BEAN!"
Message no. 2
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:51:21 -0600
I'll admit I never played DC (or for that matter a lot of other RPGs on
the market) but I do play SR and was just wondering.
Cyberpunk defiantly had it's influence on SR but where is Tolken and
AD&D in it? (I played the comp. game of tolken's, never got around to
the flesh version.) could you straighten me out? Thanks

Caun :}
Message no. 3
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:03:53 -0400
> I'll admit I never played DC (or for that matter a lot of other RPGs on
> the market) but I do play SR and was just wondering.
> Cyberpunk defiantly had it's influence on SR but where is Tolken and
> AD&D in it? (I played the comp. game of tolken's, never got around to
> the flesh version.) could you straighten me out? Thanks

Your'e kidding, right? ;-)

Elves, trolls, etc. ... these weren't just things created by Gary Gygax for
AD&D.
Tolkien's Lord of the Rings Trilogy has had an influence in nearly every
modern fantasy novel and game.

If you really haven't read The Hobbit, and the Trilogy, you owe it to
yourself to do so.

After all, then you'll understand why no one wants to see Imoortal Elves in
SR! ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"FREE FRANCIS BEAN!"
Message no. 4
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 02:22:01 -0600
I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (not the next two though,
school kicked in and never got back to them) but I figured that most
races were already conceived when Tolken wrote his masterpieces, weren't
they the based on mythology? I personally never doubted in them (I was
grown up on Fantasy) He does have a great influence over all Fantasy
though, you're right, Thanks J. R.R. Tolken, (RIP) what about AD&D in SR
I can't spot anything except they started RPG as Tolken apparently
started the Fantasy genre. That all the connection?

Caun :}
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:31:59 +0100
Caun Haskins said on 1:51/17 Jul 97...

> I'll admit I never played DC (or for that matter a lot of other RPGs on
> the market) but I do play SR and was just wondering.
> Cyberpunk defiantly had it's influence on SR but where is Tolken and
> AD&D in it? (I played the comp. game of tolken's, never got around to
> the flesh version.) could you straighten me out? Thanks

Don't look only at games, in fact it's better not to look at other games
at all. What you should do is go to a library and pick up three books by
William Gibson: Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive. Read
those and you'll see the cyberpunk roots of SR; then read all three books
of the Lord Of The Rings trilogy and there's most of the fantasy element
that's in SR.

Sure, AD&D is the archetypal fantasy RPG, but that doesn't mean every
other RPG in the world takes its ideas from it (if only because that would
make T$R's lawyers' day...). In fact much of the ideas behind AD&D are
obviously taken from Tolkien, but changed around a bit so as not to break
any rights owned by Tolkien Enterprises (for example, you can't call a
race "hobbits," but "halflings" is okay).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All these worthless nights, all these wasted days
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:36:28 -0800
At 2:32 AM 7/18/97, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
<snippagae of stuff about Dark Conspiracy>


>On the whole I thought that DC had a LOT of potential, but was hindered by
>a shabby rules system, and a lack of support.
>


Actually, I have several DC supplements, even though I never bought the
game itself. They've given me some great SR ideas...


D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"I can't help it, I'm a greedy slob. It's my hobby."
-Daffy Duck
Message no. 7
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:16:36 -0400
At 02:22 AM 7/17/97 -0600, Caun Haskins wrote these timeless words:
>I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (not the next two though,
>school kicked in and never got back to them) but I figured that most
>races were already conceived when Tolken wrote his masterpieces, weren't
>they the based on mythology? I personally never doubted in them (I was
>grown up on Fantasy) He does have a great influence over all Fantasy
>though, you're right, Thanks J. R.R. Tolken, (RIP) what about AD&D in SR
>I can't spot anything except they started RPG as Tolken apparently
>started the Fantasy genre. That all the connection?
>
Tolkien based SOME of his stuff on various Mythologies, but some ideas were
his and his alone.

The Elves, for example. before Tolkien, elevs were tiny pixie like beings
with lots of magic. I can't recall a single fable or myth that had human
sized Elevs. Tolkien was the first to make Elves what they're become today
in fantasy fiction adn RPG's. Tall people, usually as part of a normal
"race" of beings with their own govedrnment and such.

Troll's are another example. While SR trolls aren't really much like
Tolkiens Trolls, They're much closer to tolkaien's than AD&D's. AD&D Trolls
were usually mostly mindless, tall skinny regenerating things. Tolkiens
were Huge 10 foot tall beasties with minimal intelligence. However, they
DID turn to stone in daylight, so...

Dwarves are dwarves. They haven't really changed much, though in some of
the old fables, they were more like eveil little burrowing gnomes than thw
Race of Dwarves were so familiar with in Fantasy today.

Orks... Well... SR is probably the only game I know of where Orks are a
normal, viable race. AD&D came close with it's half orcs, but... That's
still not the same... And Orcs in Tolkien were pretty much the same as in
AD&D: Evil green beasties... They were also called Goblins in Tolkiens
books...

Most of the fantasy aspect of SR comes from tolkien, while the futuristic
stuff comes partly from Cyberpunk and the whole Cyberpunk Genre. It's an
interesting blend, and makes SR very unique...:]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 8
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:16:18 +0100
In article <33CDCEEF.47EEC307@*********.com>, Caun Haskins
<caun@*********.COM> rambled on endlessly about Dark Conspiracy (Was -
Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
>I'll admit I never played DC (or for that matter a lot of other RPGs on
>the market) but I do play SR and was just wondering.
>Cyberpunk defiantly had it's influence on SR but where is Tolken and
>AD&D in it? (I played the comp. game of tolken's, never got around to
>the flesh version.) could you straighten me out? Thanks
>

Ok, this is a joke right?

Erm. well, in case it isn't.

Elves, immortal elves, dragons, ancient civilisations, more immortal
elves, strange critters, orks, dwarves, trolls, more strange critters,
more immortal elves. Immortal elves with incredibly ludicrous abilities.
Glorification of immortal elves in self sacrifice for worldly good and
other such doodoo. :)

<Wanders off to barf after mentioning IE too many times>

PS, if you haven't read Lord of the Rings, make an effort to do so, it
is considered the classic Fantasy novel series, and has had more than a
little influence on the fantasy genre.

>Caun :}

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:08:14 +0100
|Orks... Well... SR is probably the only game I know of where Orks are a
|normal, viable race. AD&D came close with it's half orcs, but... That's
|still not the same... And Orcs in Tolkien were pretty much the same as in
|AD&D: Evil green beasties... They were also called Goblins in Tolkiens
|books...

Not the only one....

Paladium had Orcs as player characters, along with Hobgoblins, goblins,
changelings and Wolfen. 10 years ago.....

And quite a few LRP systems allow almost any race (that isn't unbalancing).
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:39:33 -0600
Wow, wait a minuit, are you telling me that at one time orks and goblins
were thought of as the same thing!! I always thought of them as totaly
diferent races, they are adn will always be in my head totaly different.
(I can't see the goblins in anybody's books the same as any oof my SR
characters, That would just spoil my day!) Well I gues The Fantasy gener
is still under construction, where will it go next? and we learn
somthing new every day on the ShadowRN discusion group!
Message no. 11
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:04:46 +0100
|
|Wow, wait a minuit, are you telling me that at one time orks and goblins
|were thought of as the same thing!!

In Tolkein books, yes.
In The Hobbit, they were known as Goblins, because the main character was a
Hobbit. In LotR, they were known as Orcs, because there were a lot of ELVES
around.....

Same race, different name....

I always thought of them as totaly
|diferent races, they are adn will always be in my head totaly different.

Most people see them as different these days/
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:30:07 -0500
At 07:39 AM 7/18/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Wow, wait a minuit, are you telling me that at one time orks and goblins
>were thought of as the same thing!! I always thought of them as totaly
>diferent races, they are adn will always be in my head totaly different.
>(I can't see the goblins in anybody's books the same as any oof my SR
>characters, That would just spoil my day!) Well I gues The Fantasy gener
>is still under construction, where will it go next? and we learn
>somthing new every day on the ShadowRN discusion group!
>

In Tolkiens "The Hobbit" Bilbo refers to the orcs as goblins throught the
book. In the later ring trilogy they say something to the extent of "Mr.
Bilbo mistakenly called the orcs goblins." I think other RPGs like AD&D
always considered goblins to be smaller but more viciously intelligent
versions of orcs. Orcs are typically portrayed in fantasy gaming as hulking
barbarian brutes, where the weaker goblins often use crazy weapons of mass
destruction to do their evil. Personally I think the goblin grenadiers
flying around in goblin zephalins (I have no idea how to spell zephalin :) )
firing goblin bombs from a goblin catapult are much cooler.

John
Message no. 13
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:36:03 -0400
At 12:08 PM 7/19/97 +0100, Spike wrote these timeless words:
>|Orks... Well... SR is probably the only game I know of where Orks are a
>|normal, viable race. AD&D came close with it's half orcs, but... That's
>|still not the same... And Orcs in Tolkien were pretty much the same as in
>|AD&D: Evil green beasties... They were also called Goblins in Tolkiens
>|books...
>
>Not the only one....
>
>Paladium had Orcs as player characters, along with Hobgoblins, goblins,
>changelings and Wolfen. 10 years ago.....
>
I'm not TOO familiar with Palladium's Fantasy RPG. but even in that,
despite allowing Orc Characters, weren't the Orc's still the "bad guy"? By
normal, viable race, I meant a race that WASN'T considered evil and
perfectly alright to slaughter at will...:]

>And quite a few LRP systems allow almost any race (that isn't unbalancing).
>
True, but once again... How many are Orc's simply "another race", rather
than being an Evil Race?

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 14
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:17:34 +0100
In article <33CF71FE.97A178DF@*********.com>, Caun Haskins
<caun@*********.COM> rambled on endlessly about Dark Conspiracy (Was -
Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
>Wow, wait a minuit, are you telling me that at one time orks and goblins
>were thought of as the same thing!! I always thought of them as totaly
>diferent races, they are adn will always be in my head totaly different.

By the Tolkien mythology, which seems a strong influence in the fantasy
genre, orks are a race derived from Elves. They are in fact Sauron's
corruption created from his desire to become like the creator. He
used/uses Elves to create the Orks. Orks, however are more than capable
of breeding, and hence you get variations on the theme.

The Uruk Hai, were to all intents and pruposes the genetic masterpiece
of the Ork race, powerful, tough, intelligent and mean as hell. A true
opponent to the Elven nations.

>(I can't see the goblins in anybody's books the same as any oof my SR
>characters, That would just spoil my day!) Well I gues The Fantasy gener
>is still under construction, where will it go next? and we learn
>somthing new every day on the ShadowRN discusion group!

AD&D took Goblins and turned them into what were effectively
miniaturised Orks. However, they still ranked them into the "Giantish"
sub-class (IIRC)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 15
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dark Conspiracy (Was - Re: FASA Being Sold? Semi-OT?)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:08:10 -0500
At 20-Jul-97 wrote Avenger:


>By the Tolkien mythology, which seems a strong influence in the fantasy
>genre, orks are a race derived from Elves. They are in fact Sauron's
>corruption created from his desire to become like the creator. He
>used/uses Elves to create the Orks. Orks, however are more than capable
>of breeding, and hence you get variations on the theme.

Not truly wrong but not truly right.
Morgoth created the Orcs from the Elves trough genetic manipulation
of Elves .
See the Simarilion from JRR its covers the first ages and is written before
the LotR but published afterwards because all puplishers he contacted
doesn`t wanted the book because it was so dark.

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

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