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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:13:14 -0500
OK, turn in your Atzlan sourcebooks to page 64.
Here we see the Big D admonishing the assembled Elven Immortals thusly . .
.

"Must I always keep order among my children?"

Considering that certain of these EI's had previously considered killing
the old Wyrm (a fact I find hard to imagine Dunkelzahn not knowing), isn't
it odd that D would refer to them with such restrained affection?

Here's where I start to get weird.
(And it's been a weird day! :-))

Common 2058 theory is that ceratin beings are immortal.
Science tells us that this is caused by a particular gene that becomes
active in certain levels of magic.
This sounds specious, as many EI's lasted humndreds of years during the
fifth world, and the low mana ebb.
Also, if immortality were a biological trait, then more and more beings
would eventually gain it.
It certainly sounds like a positive trait that nature would select for.

Other theories I am aware of including the "Mastery" concept that promotes
immortality as a reward some beings have been gifted with in exchange for
service to the Universe/Fate (ala. Harlequin's Back).
Or that they have learned the secret to immortality through ages of arcane
study.

What if there's another answer?

Maybe immortality IS a genetic selection.
Maybe it's passed on through only some species.

Assuming dragons are immortal (rather than aliens) then we must posit that
they possess this gene, either from birth, or through mastery.

Dragons are able to fully assume human form, including radicla changes such
as number of appendages, etc.
This style of shapechanging could conceivably take place on a genetic
level.

Assuming that dragons can take human form, they SHOULD be able to mate with
metahumans.

Such a crossbreed could very well take some abilities from the dragon
parent.
Maybe the EI's ARE Dunkelzhan's Children?

This would also explain their raw power. Not only are these beings
immortal, they weild immense knowledge, and arcane power well beyond the
realm of "normal" metahumans.

Sure at first glance this idea seems cracked, but the more I think about
it, the more it makes sense.
I think this IS going to be the truth in my world at least!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"Not even God takes this long to get back."
Message no. 2
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:55:03 -0500
At 02:13 AM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Sure at first glance this idea seems cracked, but the more I think about
>it, the more it makes sense.
>I think this IS going to be the truth in my world at least!
>
Oh, LOVELY... Just what I needed...

Bull-the-Ork-decker-who-plays-in-tinners-game

P.S. Your mailers working ok now... this went through... duh...
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.
Message no. 3
From: "V.A.L.I.S." <campbellcc@***.HENDRIX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:15:50 +0100
<snip 4.5Mp of immortality>

You know, I always viewed immortality as a curse, maybe these people
(elves, orcs, trolls, humans, dwarves) chose to give up death to fight the
eternal war against the horrors. The earlist know writings of immortality
make it a curse. (the guy who's name I can't spell, who, if i have it
right, whipped christ???)

Cursed to forever walk the earth and combat evil and all that jazz...


Sincerely,

Courtney C. Campbell...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
* Courtney C. Campbell *
* Campbellcc@*****.hendrix.edu *
* Http://www.hendrix.edu/homes/stu/campbellcc/ *
* ____| *
* |_|__ "I am not mad. *
* | I am intrested in freedom." *
* -James Douglas Morrison *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
* "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai *
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matter is plastic in the face of mind
-Tractates Cryptica Scriptura
Phillip Kindred Dick/VALIS
Message no. 4
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:20:32 +0000
> From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
> Subject: Dunkelzahn's Children
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET


> Common 2058 theory is that ceratin beings are immortal.
> Science tells us that this is caused by a particular gene that becomes
> active in certain levels of magic.
> This sounds specious, as many EI's lasted humndreds of years during the
> fifth world, and the low mana ebb.

This is simple to explain. It takes a higher mana level to initiate
a magic than to maintain it. Much like TSR's that require more
memory to load than to remain active.

> Also, if immortality were a biological trait, then more and more beings
> would eventually gain it.

This depends. How much do the beings with this gene
procreate?

> It certainly sounds like a positive trait that nature would select for.

Yes, but name givers presumably have a choice in the matter of
whether or not to procreate.

> Assuming that dragons can take human form, they SHOULD be able to mate with
> metahumans.

I doubt that the dragon's genes change, and would not be compatable
with a human's.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 5
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:26:00 +0100
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:15:50 +0100, V.A.L.I.S. wrote:

>(the guy who's name I can't spell, who, if i have it
>right, whipped christ???)
>
>Cursed to forever walk the earth and combat evil and all that jazz...

Ahasver (or anythin like it)?

Arno (not really a christian...)
Message no. 6
From: 'Spaceman' WD Lee <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:43:55 -0800
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:15:50 +0100, V.A.L.I.S. wrote:
# (the guy who's name I can't spell, who, if i have it
# right, whipped christ???)
#
# Cursed to forever walk the earth and combat evil and all that jazz...
#
It's the Wandering Jew, the person who held the vinegar jar for
the Roman centurion......"one of you shall tarry here until i return" and
all that

The Spaceman |You are Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.
spaced@*.washington.edu |That is enough.
Check out the Bill Page! | -The Player
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P+ L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G+ e+ h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ Dr
Message no. 7
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:51:35 EST
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:43:55 -0800 "'Spaceman' WD Lee"
<spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU> writes:
>On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:15:50 +0100, V.A.L.I.S. wrote:
># (the guy who's name I can't spell, who, if i have it
># right, whipped christ???)
>#
># Cursed to forever walk the earth and combat evil and all that
>jazz...
>#
> It's the Wandering Jew, the person who held the vinegar jar
>for
>the Roman centurion......"one of you shall tarry here until i return"
>and
>all that
>
Can someone give me a specific reference for this? I'm intensely curious,
as I've been at a Christian school and had to tkae Bible classes for the
last 12 years, and this has never popped up (even though the story of did
at least once or twice).

Canthros-the-Christian
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 8
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:21:34 EST
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:51:35 EST L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM> writes:
>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:43:55 -0800 "'Spaceman' WD Lee"
><spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU> writes: >On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:15:50 +0100,
>V.A.L.I.S. wrote:
>># (the guy who's name I can't spell, who, if i have it
>># right, whipped christ???)
>>#
>># Cursed to forever walk the earth and combat evil and all that
>>jazz...
>>#
>> It's the Wandering Jew, the person who held the vinegar jar
>>for the Roman centurion......"one of you shall tarry here until i
return"
>>and all that
>>
>Can someone give me a specific reference for this? I'm intensely
>curious, as I've been at a Christian school and had to tkae Bible
classes for
>the last 12 years, and this has never popped up (even though the story
>of did at least once or twice).
>Canthros-the-Christian

Thats because it probably doesn't exist. If you want ACTUAL biblical
references, just read the tail-end of any of the gospels. Anything not
there is well....not there.

~Tim
Message no. 9
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:58:48 -0500
> Thats because it probably doesn't exist. If you want ACTUAL biblical
> references, just read the tail-end of any of the gospels. Anything not
> there is well....not there.

Actually it all depends on what version of the Bible you read.
Different faiths use different translations.
To the best of my knowledge, this tale comes from the Apocrypha - a
seperate section of books used by the Catholic Church.
The Apoc. is considered an intermediate to the old and new testaments.
It contains stories of the occupation of Jerusalem by the Romans, as well
as a few noyes on the childhood of Jesus, and if I remember correctly, it
also has an account of a Dragon?

I'm not sure if the Apocrypha is STILL used by Rome or not, but I beleive
that is the origin of the tale.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"Not even God takes this long to get back."
Message no. 10
From: 'Spaceman' WD Lee <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:28:36 -0800
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
# Actually it all depends on what version of the Bible you read.
This is why the quotation hard to track
# To the best of my knowledge, this tale comes from the Apocrypha - a
# seperate section of books used by the Catholic Church.
Actually, I found it in an odd translation of the book of Mark.
It's in Chapter 23, I believe (I couldn't find the original bible, but the
online Revised Standard reminded). Right after Jesus cries "Father,
Father, why hast thou forsaken me?", somone runs up with a sponge full of
vinegar. While Luke clearly states that it is a Roman centurion, Mark and
Matthew don't make the distinction, as well as implying that it is a Jew.
The version I saw was Jesus's response right before he died to the vinegar

# also has an account of a Dragon?

Among other things, there's an account of the Maccabean rebellion
(1-4 Maccabees) and a story involving Daniel, entitled _Bel and the
Dragon_.

The Spaceman |You are Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.
spaced@*.washington.edu |That is enough.
Check out the Bill Page! | -The Player
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P+ L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G+ e+ h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ Dr
Message no. 11
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:04:02 EST
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:28:36 -0800 "'Spaceman' WD Lee"
<spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU> writes:
>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
># Actually it all depends on what version of the Bible you read.
> This is why the quotation hard to track
># To the best of my knowledge, this tale comes from the Apocrypha - a
># seperate section of books used by the Catholic Church.
> Actually, I found it in an odd translation of the book of
>Mark.
>It's in Chapter 23, I believe (I couldn't find the original bible, but

Do you maybe mean Matthew Twenty-three (can't be there, either)? Or is
that what was so odd about the translation? I've checked all the Gospels
in the King James version (almost certainly not the translation you're
referring to, but it's about the only thing around here) and can find no
reference to any such condemnation in Christ's remarks on the Cross in
any of them.
>the
>online Revised Standard reminded). Right after Jesus cries "Father,
>Father, why hast thou forsaken me?", somone runs up with a sponge full
>of
>vinegar. While Luke clearly states that it is a Roman centurion, Mark
>and
>Matthew don't make the distinction, as well as implying that it is a
>Jew.
>The version I saw was Jesus's response right before he died to the
>vinegar

In John 19:30, Christ replies "It is finished", in Luke chapter 23, they
never mention His response to the centurions offering vinegar, in Mark
chapter 15, Christ is said to have "cried with a loud voice, and gave up
the ghost" (v37), and Matthew records the same (Matthew 27:46-49). Do you
know what translation of the Bible you were reading when you ran across
this? it would help me immensely.

># also has an account of a Dragon?
>
> Among other things, there's an account of the Maccabean
>rebellion
>(1-4 Maccabees) and a story involving Daniel, entitled _Bel and the
>Dragon_.
>
Always wanted to read Bel and the Dragon, I've just never gotten around
to it.

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 12
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:04:02 EST
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:21:34 EST Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM> writes:
>Thats because it probably doesn't exist. If you want ACTUAL biblical
>references, just read the tail-end of any of the gospels. Anything
>not there is well....not there.
>~Tim
>
Well, I didn't figure this would be somewhere in the Bible, but figured
maybe it was either a)in a book not included in the New Testament, or b)a
sort-of folk-tale, in which case I was hoping for an entire explanation
(I doubt i'll get it, but I can always ask:) It also sounded like a good
hook for the beginnings of an SR game with a supernatural twist:)

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 13
From: Faux Pas <thomas@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Children
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:23:28 -0600
At 11:04 PM 1/17/97 EST, you wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:21:34 EST Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM> writes:
>>Thats because it probably doesn't exist. If you want ACTUAL biblical
>>references, just read the tail-end of any of the gospels. Anything
>>not there is well....not there.
>>~Tim
>>
>Well, I didn't figure this would be somewhere in the Bible, but figured
>maybe it was either a)in a book not included in the New Testament, or b)a
>sort-of folk-tale, in which case I was hoping for an entire explanation
>(I doubt i'll get it, but I can always ask:) It also sounded like a good
>hook for the beginnings of an SR game with a supernatural twist:)

Information on the Wandering Jew can be found at:

http://www.art.man.ac.uk/english/ramiconf.htm


-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"Fnord."

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Dunkelzahn's Children, you may also be interested in:

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