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Message no. 1
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:18:57 -0400
[lots of discussion and speculation about the Big D's death snipped]

I think this had been an interesting discussion so far. Not all of it is
accurate. Some of it is WAY off, in fact, but there are a few telling points.

Without blowing the whole plotline, I will mention the Election of '57,
Dunkelzahn's death and the events which followed were not haphazard or a
"panic" reaction by FASA. As someone who was at the planning meeting, I can
tell you a lot of thought and planning when into the whole plotline and where
it would go. FASA knows EXACTLY what happened in front of the Watergate Hotel
that night and they know just why it happened. Most of it will be revealed in
Jak Koke's Dragonheart Trilogy, but elements and aftershocks of the
assassination will be around in Shadowrun for years to come.

On a related note, speaking completely unofficially, I have worked as a
freelancer with Mike Mulvihill since before he was official Shadowrun
Developer and I have the utmost confidence in his ability to steer the game
and the game universe in the right direction. He's been telling me about
plans for '98 and I can tell you some real cool things are in store for
Shadowrun. It's going to be up to Mike to tell you what they will be : )

FASA is NOT going to turn Shadowrun into "Earthdawn with guns." At least not
in the forseeable future. If they are, then they've been keeping it a REAL
good secret : ) Magic is, and will hopefully remain, an important element of
the Sixth World, but there are lots of other areas Shadowrun will explore.
The second edition of the Rigger Black Book is going to be full of
techno-toys and goodies galore and some upcoming plots are going to focus
much more on the non-magical side of things in SR much in the same way the
Mob War! plotline did.

Stick around for the ride, chummers. It'll be a good one.

Steve K.
Message no. 2
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:54:37 +0100
In article <970507165453_1521760863@*******.mail.aol.com>, Steve Kenson
<TalonMail@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
>[lots of discussion and speculation about the Big D's death snipped]
>
>I think this had been an interesting discussion so far. Not all of it is
>accurate. Some of it is WAY off,

Yeah, but that's what makes it all so much fun :)

<snip Steve finally telling the fans that the novels are canon, and that
they can be taken for rules and game reference - not a good thing
IMNSHO>

>On a related note, speaking completely unofficially, I have worked as a
>freelancer with Mike Mulvihill since before he was official Shadowrun
>Developer and I have the utmost confidence in his ability to steer the game
>and the game universe in the right direction.

Mike's abilities weren't IIRC questioned, just the apparent direction
Shadowrun was taking for a while. Thankfully, when Mike introduced
himself to the list, he made a few things very clear, and I for one am
looking forward to what he's going to do with the game, I just have this
terrible dread deep down...

>He's been telling me about
>plans for '98 and I can tell you some real cool things are in store for
>Shadowrun. It's going to be up to Mike to tell you what they will be : )

Yeah right, like he's going to get everyone's hopes up, and then suffer
schedule delays and the resultant screaming from this motley crew. :)

>FASA is NOT going to turn Shadowrun into "Earthdawn with guns."

That's a _very_ reasuring comment, nicely covered with ..

>At least not
>in the forseeable future.

The standard company disclaimer. Erm, Mr. Kenson, you do realise that
in two sentences you have semi-contradicted a statement, and covered
your butt <grin>. Ever thought of running for President?

>If they are, then they've been keeping it a REAL
>good secret : )

Ah... now that's a possibility <g> but seriously, I for one will thank
you for that reassurance above, and hold you personally responsible, up
to the point of posting a killer goldfish to you if it's proved that
you're wrong - disclaimer or no. ;)

>Magic is, and will hopefully remain, an important element of
>the Sixth World,

Fair enough. As far as I know, the majority of Shadowrun players and
GMs don't have a problem with magic in Shadowrun, (beyond the
occassional rule) they just vary the power of the game reflected in how
much magic is available.

>but there are lots of other areas Shadowrun will explore.
>The second edition of the Rigger Black Book is going to be full of
>techno-toys and goodies galore

Not the mysterious RBB2 again. :) Does this book really exist then?
Oh, sorry , silly question, you just said it did :)

While we seem to have grasped your attention, what are the chances of
FASA producing something similar to the map discussion we had on this
list a while back, deliniating borders, and giving us a rough idea what
the Shadowrun world actually looks like. It would halp a lot in
speculation, and I can't see something like that interfering with future
releases from FASA, for the simple reason, that the developers would
have a world to work with, but it would help us non-cartographic types a
_lot_ :)

>and some upcoming plots are going to focus
>much more on the non-magical side of things in SR much in the same way the
>Mob War! plotline did.

OK, that's good news as well, though cutting magic out too drastically
may be taken as a poor reflection as well. I do personally feel that
Shadowrun has had too much concentration on magic, especially as mages
etc are supposedly relatively rare. I seem to recall working out the
percentage population of mages, adepts etc a while ago. The game
modules and stuff have highlighted the presence of magic in a more
"present" manner, which I found strange, but not a problem as such. For
low powered games like the one's I run, it's relatively simple to turn a
magical threat into a more mundane problem.

>Stick around for the ride, chummers. It'll be a good one.

I hope so. I have and had every intention of sticking around, as do
others that share my opinions and attitudes towards some of Shadowrun's
previous development. I, and others were simply worried about the
increasing presence and evidence of an SR/ED merger. You've at least
temporarily put my fears to rest, but I'll be watching <grin>.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:10:44 +0100
Avenger said on 1:54/ 8 May 97...

> The standard company disclaimer. Erm, Mr. Kenson, you do realise that
> in two sentences you have semi-contradicted a statement, and covered
> your butt <grin>. Ever thought of running for President?

He'd have to blow himself up if he'd get elected, wouldn't he? :)

> Not the mysterious RBB2 again. :) Does this book really exist then?
> Oh, sorry , silly question, you just said it did :)

You must be confusing the RBB2 with Running Short...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 4
From: Jak Koke <jkoke@******.UOREGON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:36:34 -0700
Dark Avenger wrote:
><snip Steve finally telling the fans that the novels are canon, and that
>they can be taken for rules and game reference - not a good thing
>IMNSHO>

I don't think Steve meant to say that novels are canon as far as rules go.
However, _certain_ novels portray important world events as FASA sees them.
_Burning Bright_ comes to mind, as does the Dragon Heart Trilogy and Steve's
upcoming novel, which I think is still called _Technobabel_. As with
anything FASA publishes, including sourcebooks, individuals can and should
disregard events and characters which don't fit with their campaign.

The world map idea is a good one, btw.

Best,

--Jak

Jak Koke La Jolla, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
Stranger Souls chapters are now online at
http://www.fasa.com/NEW%20FICTION/MAIN/NewFiction.html
Message no. 5
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:46:42 +0100
In article <199705081008.MAA08320@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> rambled on endlessly about Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
>Avenger said on 1:54/ 8 May 97...
>
>> The standard company disclaimer. Erm, Mr. Kenson, you do realise that
>> in two sentences you have semi-contradicted a statement, and covered
>> your butt <grin>. Ever thought of running for President?
>
>He'd have to blow himself up if he'd get elected, wouldn't he? :)

Would this be one of those "you know something nobody else does" things?
I mean, if Mr. Kenson has to blow himself up after being elected, are
you implying he's a great dragon? <g>

>> Not the mysterious RBB2 again. :) Does this book really exist then?
>> Oh, sorry , silly question, you just said it did :)
>
>You must be confusing the RBB2 with Running Short...

I'm not confusing anything, honest. Steve definately mentioned the RBB2,
which has been in production and promised for a little while now, and, I
think, the release date has been shifted back twice. :(

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 6
From: Dale Talbert <LuvsAmanda@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:16:12 -0400
I asked FASA about the RBB2 book and they said that it would be out in
September.
Message no. 7
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:44:55 -0400
On 8 May 1997 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:

><snip Steve finally telling the fans that the novels are canon, and that
>they can be taken for rules and game reference - not a good thing
>IMNSHO>

WHOA! I said nothing of the kind! While I think that every effort is being
made (now) to keep the SR novels within the reasonable bounds of the rules, I
wouldn't use them as anything other than inspiration for an SR game, not a
source of definitive rules. Even within the rules FASA allows a certain
amount of "dramatic license" to writers, involving interpretation of rules
that individual gamemasters might not go along with. Just because something
appears in a Shadowrun novel doesn't mean it has to be allowed in someone's
campaign.

The novels will sometimes describe important events in the Sixth World (like
Burning Bright did) but that does not make them "cannon" as far as the rules
are concerned. For example, there is some magic stuff in Burning Bright I
personally don't agree with and wouldn't allow in my campaign. It's up to the
gamemaster what stuff from the novels is cannon, IMHO.

>The standard company disclaimer. Erm, Mr. Kenson, you do realise that
>in two sentences you have semi-contradicted a statement, and covered
>your butt <grin>. Ever thought of running for President?

I apologize for seeming wishy-washy on the whole thing, but you have to
realize my position. I am not an employee or a representative of FASA, I just
write some stuff for them from time to time <grin>. So I can't speak
"officially" on anything where FASA's game lines are concerned. That's the
job of a FASA employee, Mike Mulvihill in this case. I just saw the "oh no,
Shadowrun is going to turn into Earthdawn with guns" thread starting up and
wanted to say that I was well-assured by people in the know that wasn't going
to happen. All of the hedging comes from the fact that I don't make the
decisions. If it were up to ME, there would be next to no official connection
between Shadowrun and Earthdawn, but that decision lies with FASA.

>Not the mysterious RBB2 again. :) Does this book really exist then?
>Oh, sorry , silly question, you just said it did :)

Yes, the Rigger Black Book does indeed exist. I know the author and I have
seen a draft copy of the rules. I think they will tell people things they
didn't even know they wanted to know about riggers, along with lots of new
toys, a vehicle construction system and (as marketing says) much, much more.
It's all Rigger 1.0 should have been in the first place, IMHO.

>While we seem to have grasped your attention, what are the chances of
>FASA producing something similar to the map discussion we had on this
>list a while back, deliniating borders, and giving us a rough idea what
>the Shadowrun world actually looks like. It would halp a lot in
>speculation, and I can't see something like that interfering with future
>releases from FASA, for the simple reason, that the developers would
>have a world to work with, but it would help us non-cartographic types a
>_lot_ :)

Again, I can't speak for FASA on what products they will or will not produce,
but I'd say pretty unlikely. You MIGHT be able to get FASA to do a map of a
region like North America, which is pretty well worked out in game product,
but regions that haven't been written up yet are literal unknowns and I can't
imagine FASA publishing a map which could constrain their authors in the
future in describing those areas, just as you mention. Also, in pure economic
terms, maps and map books don't sell very well compared to other types of
products.

Stick to the shadows,
Steve K.
(who doesn't have a .sig in Target: UCAS...)
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:29:18 -0400
At 09:44 PM 5/12/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote these timeless words:

>>The standard company disclaimer. Erm, Mr. Kenson, you do realise that
>>in two sentences you have semi-contradicted a statement, and covered
>>your butt <grin>. Ever thought of running for President?
>
>I apologize for seeming wishy-washy on the whole thing, but you have to
>realize my position. I am not an employee or a representative of FASA, I just
>write some stuff for them from time to time <grin>. So I can't speak
>"officially" on anything where FASA's game lines are concerned. That's the
>job of a FASA employee, Mike Mulvihill in this case. I just saw the "oh no,
>Shadowrun is going to turn into Earthdawn with guns" thread starting up and
>wanted to say that I was well-assured by people in the know that wasn't going
>to happen. All of the hedging comes from the fact that I don't make the
>decisions.
>
Fully understandable, Mr. Kenson. Now, I believe the Game Police are here
to see you about some of your earlier comments...

<grin>

>If it were up to ME, there would be next to no official connection
>between Shadowrun and Earthdawn, but that decision lies with FASA.
>
Personally, It doesn't bother me in the least that there is a connection.
I'm not that happy with the game mechanics of ED, but that's a personal gripe.

I think it's kinda cool that there is a "history" to the SR world, one that
includes magic and stuff. But at the same time, I see the need to keep the
two seperated. No reason for everything from teh one to be in the other
(Though I think T'skrang and Obsidimen would be cool in SR:)).

>>Not the mysterious RBB2 again. :) Does this book really exist then?
>>Oh, sorry , silly question, you just said it did :)
>
>Yes, the Rigger Black Book does indeed exist. I know the author and I have
>seen a draft copy of the rules. I think they will tell people things they
>didn't even know they wanted to know about riggers, along with lots of new
>toys, a vehicle construction system and (as marketing says) much, much more.
>It's all Rigger 1.0 should have been in the first place, IMHO.
>
You have no idea how eagerly Bull is awaiting this and Cyberpirates...
Because he can't buy the boat, the parrot, and the eyepatch till these
books come out...:]

>>While we seem to have grasped your attention, what are the chances of
>>FASA producing something similar to the map discussion we had on this
>>list a while back, deliniating borders, and giving us a rough idea what
>>the Shadowrun world actually looks like. It would halp a lot in
>>speculation, and I can't see something like that interfering with future
>>releases from FASA, for the simple reason, that the developers would
>>have a world to work with, but it would help us non-cartographic types a
>>_lot_ :)
>
>Again, I can't speak for FASA on what products they will or will not produce,
>but I'd say pretty unlikely. You MIGHT be able to get FASA to do a map of a
>region like North America, which is pretty well worked out in game product,
>but regions that haven't been written up yet are literal unknowns and I can't
>imagine FASA publishing a map which could constrain their authors in the
>future in describing those areas, just as you mention. Also, in pure economic
>terms, maps and map books don't sell very well compared to other types of
>products.
>
I think this is one product that WOULD sell... It weems to be one of the
mosyt frustrating things that every GM feels... What lies OUTSIDE the
boundaries? Sure, we could make it up, but it will likely not be anything
like what FASA could eventually come up with, and chances are, FASA's will
be cooler...:] Then what do we do?

"Oh, sorry guys... Tibet ISN'T a land full of magical monks... Instead
tehy are all gun toting maniacs bent on taking over the world... and Dunky
lives there with Elvis and JFK..."

<grin>

>Stick to the shadows,
>Steve K.
>(who doesn't have a .sig in Target: UCAS...)
>
Yeah, like Talon isn't in a bunch of other books already...:]

Bull
--
Now the Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

"The best Ork Decker you never met"
-Me, in the upcoming "Target: UCAS" Shadowrun Sourcebook!
Message no. 9
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:59:30 +0100
In article <970512214432_811451129@*******.mail.aol.com>, Steve Kenson
<TalonMail@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
>On 8 May 1997 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:
>
>><snip Steve finally telling the fans that the novels are canon, and that
>>they can be taken for rules and game reference - not a good thing
>>IMNSHO>
>
>WHOA! I said nothing of the kind!

Actually Mr. Kenson, you strongly implied it. I don't have a copy of
the mail at this time, as I have this list set up as a newsgroup for
automatic expire, but there was a definate and definable statement in
your post that said the novels were acceptable as canon. If the novels
are canon Shadowrun, it would seem a safe assumption that you were
saying they could be used for rule call judgements, something I and a
couple of other people have argued against in the list. If I
misinterpreted your statement, I apologise, but I don't feel that I did.

>While I think that every effort is being
>made (now) to keep the SR novels within the reasonable bounds of the rules, I
>wouldn't use them as anything other than inspiration for an SR game, not a
>source of definitive rules.

Neither do I. The novels, in my opinion are equivelent to better than
normal fan fiction, and a lot of dramatic licence is available in a
book, that would not normally be available in the game system, hence my
above statement of disappointment.

>Even within the rules FASA allows a certain
>amount of "dramatic license" to writers, involving interpretation of rules
>that individual gamemasters might not go along with. Just because something
>appears in a Shadowrun novel doesn't mean it has to be allowed in someone's
>campaign.

Thankyou. I will now apologise to you for the accusation you quoted at
the beginning of this mail, and humbly request your forgiveness for what
was obviously a mistaken interpretation of your previous comments.

>>The standard company disclaimer. Erm, Mr. Kenson, you do realise that
>>in two sentences you have semi-contradicted a statement, and covered
>>your butt <grin>. Ever thought of running for President?
>
>I apologize for seeming wishy-washy on the whole thing, but you have to
>realize my position.

I do appreciate your position, hence the humourous statement asking if
you would consider running for Presidential office.

>I am not an employee or a representative of FASA, I just
>write some stuff for them from time to time <grin>. So I can't speak
>"officially" on anything where FASA's game lines are concerned. That's the
>job of a FASA employee, Mike Mulvihill in this case. I just saw the "oh no,
>Shadowrun is going to turn into Earthdawn with guns" thread starting up and
>wanted to say that I was well-assured by people in the know that wasn't going
>to happen. All of the hedging comes from the fact that I don't make the
>decisions. If it were up to ME, there would be next to no official connection
>between Shadowrun and Earthdawn, but that decision lies with FASA.

Your reply to the ED with guns thread was well appreciated, and I took a
lot of reassurement from a person who "occassionally" <g> writes some
'stuff'. Even Mike, as line developer is careful what he says on this
or any other list, but still, it was amusing to watch you make a
statement, and then immediately cover yourself with a standard
disclaimer. The comment I made was not an observation on your
personality, standing or honesty, it was just a comment on how
situations like this arise from time to time, and people start making
sure that 't's are crossed and i's dotted :)

>>Not the mysterious RBB2 again. :) Does this book really exist then?
>>Oh, sorry , silly question, you just said it did :)
>
>Yes, the Rigger Black Book does indeed exist.

Double confirmation, that means it does :) Oh goody.

>I know the author and I have
>seen a draft copy of the rules. I think they will tell people things they
>didn't even know they wanted to know about riggers, along with lots of new
>toys, a vehicle construction system and (as marketing says) much, much more.
>It's all Rigger 1.0 should have been in the first place, IMHO.

As you are probably more than well aware this is something that has been
long looked forward to by the Shadowrun fans, and is eagerly awaited.
Nice to see it's going to be up to the standard FASA first set for the
game, and hopefully the standard that Mike will be following through his
tenureship as Line Developer.

>>speculation, and I can't see something like that interfering with future
>>releases from FASA, for the simple reason, that the developers would
>>have a world to work with, but it would help us non-cartographic types a
>>_lot_ :)
>
>Again, I can't speak for FASA on what products they will or will not produce,
>but I'd say pretty unlikely. You MIGHT be able to get FASA to do a map of a
>region like North America, which is pretty well worked out in game product,
>but regions that haven't been written up yet are literal unknowns and I can't
>imagine FASA publishing a map which could constrain their authors in the
>future in describing those areas, just as you mention. Also, in pure economic
>terms, maps and map books don't sell very well compared to other types of
>products.

Fair comment. Something I think many here would disagree with, after
all, in the last ten years borders have changed considerably in certain
areas, not least Europe and the Russian Federation (USSR), so a present
map would not necessarily reflect poorly on future products, where the
lines could be redrawn accordingly with some common sense. Though
obviously it might create some constraints upon future sourcebook
writers. I do however appreciate that maps and such are not great
sellers. However, it wouldn't be entirely necessary to release
something like this as a supplement in itself. It could, like the North
American map in the Seattle sourcebook, be included with a sourcebook,
we have a book due to be released, Target UCAS. Target World, or
similar, would not be too far out of survivability for FASA to produce
such an item, in much the same vein as the EuroSource and PacRim books
from RTG. This product could include a map, with country delineations
marked out, yet not necessarily infringe on versatility for later
products. Theoretically, such material would still be purchased by the
Shadowrun supporters, and yet still contain something that many are
requesting. I did doubt that such an item would be forthcoming, so I
don't expect something like this to be forthcoming, but it would be a
nice touch from FASA. There is so much supposition and suggestion in
previous source material, that such a map may even assist future writers
in not contradicting previous material, like the situation that has
arisen between Underworld and the Denver Sourcebook.

Oh well, I guess it's back to the design table and carry on with my own
then :)

>Stick to the shadows,

Ah, but it's so much more fun in the light <g>

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:38:18 +1000
> <TalonMail@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
> >On 8 May 1997 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:
> >
> >><snip Steve finally telling the fans that the novels are canon, and that
> >>they can be taken for rules and game reference - not a good thing
> >>IMNSHO>
> >
> >WHOA! I said nothing of the kind!
>
> Actually Mr. Kenson, you strongly implied it. I don't have a copy of
> the mail at this time, as I have this list set up as a newsgroup for
> automatic expire, but there was a definate and definable statement in
> your post that said the novels were acceptable as canon.

Well, I don't see how it really matters all that much, but if you're
really interested in the exact wroding of that post, the last six months
of posts are archived at itribe.net. You can find them by browsing
Paolo's site.


> >>Not the mysterious RBB2 again. :) Does this book really exist then?
> >>Oh, sorry , silly question, you just said it did :)
> >
> >Yes, the Rigger Black Book does indeed exist.
>
> Double confirmation, that means it does :) Oh goody.
>

Should have asked him for a double-confirm on the release date, instead
*grin*

Marty
Message no. 11
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:27:29 +0100
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970514233452.9782A-100000@*****.student.gu.edu
.au>, "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> rambled on
endlessly about Dunkelzahn's Life & Death

>Well, I don't see how it really matters all that much, but if you're
>really interested in the exact wroding of that post, the last six months
>of posts are archived at itribe.net. You can find them by browsing
>Paolo's site.

It's OK, a very kind friend sent me a copy, and I'm not wrong with my
assumption. :) It was stated that the majority of Dunklezahn's death
details will be revealed in Jak Koke's trilogy, which means the books
are to be considered canon for the game system, as they have essential
details regarding a major plot line and continuing story. Indicating
that the rest of the novels are also canon, and can be used for plot and
rules judgements. :)

Well, that's what I thought at the time, and I'm a tad disappointed as I
don't buy the novels on principle.

>> >Yes, the Rigger Black Book does indeed exist.
>>
>> Double confirmation, that means it does :) Oh goody.
>
>Should have asked him for a double-confirm on the release date, instead
>*grin*

I know. I realised that as soon as I sent the post. :) Oh well, I'll
try harder next time :)


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:17:02 +0100
|It's OK, a very kind friend sent me a copy, and I'm not wrong with my
|assumption. :) It was stated that the majority of Dunklezahn's death
|details will be revealed in Jak Koke's trilogy, which means the books
|are to be considered canon for the game system, as they have essential
|details regarding a major plot line and continuing story. Indicating
|that the rest of the novels are also canon, and can be used for plot and
|rules judgements. :)

|Well, that's what I thought at the time, and I'm a tad disappointed as I
|don't buy the novels on principle.

Well.... They MIGHT (in special cases) be cannon as far as plot goes, but
RULES??? Nope. Never.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:21:38 GMT
Avenger writes
>
> It's OK, a very kind friend sent me a copy, and I'm not wrong with my
> assumption. :) It was stated that the majority of Dunklezahn's death
> details will be revealed in Jak Koke's trilogy, which means the books
> are to be considered canon for the game system, as they have essential
> details regarding a major plot line and continuing story. Indicating
> that the rest of the novels are also canon, and can be used for plot and
> rules judgements. :)
I think you should split this up.
1) some of the novels contain details of major events, for example
the destruction of Nukes in the secrets of power, Dunkelzahn stuff in
the forthcomming trillogy. This probably should be taken as canon
FASA.
2) game rules. The novels bend them and all too often break them.
AFAIK nothing anyone who is associated with FASA or writing novels
etc. for them has said implies that the novels can be safely used for
rules judgements. They can be used as a guide as to whats possible
where the rules don't state anything, eg rigging motorcycles but GM
discretion is edvised in all cases.

Mark
Message no. 14
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:44:34 -0500
Hold on a minute here Bucko!. Just because the honorable Mr. Koke got to
wax poetic about Herr Darktooth. To wit; I am eagerly looking forward to
his books. Nothing is Canon is Shadowrun. any GM can do whatever he
darn well likes (so long as he lays his house rules out before he
starts... or gives enough warning before he picks up new ones). The one
thing that I like about this GAME is its flexibility. $$&$ is NOT.
though under the right DM it is still way fun.

I think that I am rambling now so I'll shut up. SR is a game... for
fun...If you don't like Jak Koke's story don't use it.

If you think that I'm full of ... uh ... dog turds... lets go private.


regards


Bill

I admire anybody who actually gets something published ...
"Too Much Coffee Man" is my hero etc etc etc
Message no. 15
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:23:12 +1000
> >Well, I don't see how it really matters all that much, but if you're
> >really interested in the exact wroding of that post, the last six months
> >of posts are archived at itribe.net. You can find them by browsing
> >Paolo's site.
>
> It's OK, a very kind friend sent me a copy, and I'm not wrong with my
> assumption. :) It was stated that the majority of Dunklezahn's death
> details will be revealed in Jak Koke's trilogy, which means the books
> are to be considered canon for the game system, as they have essential
> details regarding a major plot line and continuing story. Indicating
> that the rest of the novels are also canon, and can be used for plot and
> rules judgements. :)

How does it mean that they can be used for rules judgments? I can see that
that statement can only be read to mean that as far as the story goes, the
events are canon in Shadowrun history, but how does that stretch to cover
the rules? I am not trying to start an argument here, I just wish to see
how you came to your point of view.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 16
From: Jak Koke <jkoke@******.UOREGON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:43:11 -0700
Did anyone see this before? I sent this post almost a week ago, and it
showed up in the digest I got, but I got no responses. I'm not saying it
deserved a response. It just seemed ususual.

Basically, it states my beliefs about what FASA (and me as a novelist) sees
as the role of novels among the various types of SR products (Sourcebooks,
Adventures, CCG, etc...). Novels contain no rules and therefore can not be
used for any rules judgments in role playing sessions. They do contain
story (at least most of them :} ), and sometimes, that story contains events
which could affect your campaign. (ie. If you run in post Bug City Chicago,
_Burning Bright_ contains events which are probably important background)

You can, of course, disregard as much or as little of the story as you
choose for role playing purposes. This has always been and will always be
the perogative of the GM.

Original message follows: (please let me know if it came through the first
time. I recently switched email servers and had to resubscribe.)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Dark Avenger wrote:
><snip Steve finally telling the fans that the novels are canon, and that
>they can be taken for rules and game reference - not a good thing
>IMNSHO>

I don't think Steve meant to say that novels are canon as far as rules go.
However, _certain_ novels portray important world events as FASA sees them.
_Burning Bright_ comes to mind, as does the Dragon Heart Trilogy and Steve's
upcoming novel, which I think is still called _Technobabel_. As with
anything FASA publishes, including sourcebooks, individuals can and should
disregard events and characters which don't fit with their campaign.

The world map idea is a good one, btw.

Best,

--Jak

Jak Koke La Jolla, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
Stranger Souls chapters are now online at
http://www.fasa.com/NEW%20FICTION/MAIN/NewFiction.html
Message no. 17
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn's Life & Death
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:22:22 GMT
Jak Koke writes

> Did anyone see this before?
Yes i believe the message did come through origonally.

[chop]
>
> Dark Avenger wrote:
> ><snip Steve finally telling the fans that the novels are canon, and that
> >they can be taken for rules and game reference - not a good thing
> >IMNSHO>
>
> I don't think Steve meant to say that novels are canon as far as rules go.
> However, _certain_ novels portray important world events as FASA sees them.
> _Burning Bright_ comes to mind,
Yes. Despite the varied complaints about its sometimes blatant
disregard of the rules it is a good read, contains a lot of useful
information on how the mess in Chicago came to be and does
demonstrate an initiated magician using his abilities to full effect
and sensibly.

> as does the Dragon Heart Trilogy
Which i am seriously hoping comes out through the RPG trade
everywhere at the same time, sourcebooks on time in Britian is no
problem but the arrival order for novels and timing in the past has
been more than erratic.
One chapter only of stranger souls is so interesting but!!!

> and Steve's
> upcoming novel, which I think is still called _Technobabel_. As with
> anything FASA publishes, including sourcebooks, individuals can and should
> disregard events and characters which don't fit with their campaign.
>
> The world map idea is a good one, btw.
>
Mark

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Dunkelzahn's Life & Death, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!