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From:	K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject:	Enlighten me (spellcasting)
Date:	Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:42:06 -0500

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Okay, I'm asking a stupid question. sigh.

I've been trying to assemble a short, sharp "players' screen"- something
like a GM screen, but for the players. (My goal is to move combats
along. I'm tired of calculating ALL the target numbers...) [It's
currently nine pages long- not as sharp as I'd hoped... :) ]

Along the way, I've learned a lot (some good, some bad, some just
disturbing- why, for example, do you stage the wound up *before* the damage
resistance test in melee, but *after* it in ranged combat?)...

The question:
So, if I cast a combat spell, it is resisted first by spell defense dice,
then by a spell resistance test. Net successes are used to stage the
damage up. (am I right so far?) Is that damage then resisted with
Body? I would assume so, but I can't find it in the book. And can the
damage cause wound effects? Again, I assume so, but can't find a
rule. And how about Knockdown? No rules.

Here's an idea. This is my cheat sheet entry for spell casting. Is it
right? (I feel strangely vulnerable... :)
SPELL casting (SR3 181)
1. Make Sorcery Test
Sorcery (TN per spell) Test. Dice: Spell Pool, totem mods. (For
multiple spells, split dice. For area spells, withhold 2/1m to reduce
radius, 1/1m to increase radius, base radius = Magic.) TN: visibility,
cover. Count successes.
(EM: Use Ranged Cbt Mods)
2. Resolve Spell Defense Test
Spell defense (Force) Test. Count successes.
2a. Resolve Spell Resistance Test
Living targets may always resist.
Body/Willpower/Intelligence (Force) Test; count successes
(EM: Substitute Dodge Test)
3. Compare successes
Calculate net successes. Tie blocks spell.
4. Determine effect
Effects per spell description. Damage: 2 successes = 1 step
0 L M S D Overflow
5a. Resist damage
Body (Force) Test.
2 successes = 1 step.
Overflow D S M L 0
(EM: Use ½ Impact armor)
5b. Determine wound effects
Same roll, open test. TN = # of boxes lost. # of Wound Effects =
TN open roll + Overflow. See Wound Effects.
(EM: Lightning does add’l wound effect on 1-2 on 1D6)
5c. Determine Knockdown
Body (Force) Test. Count successes. See Knockdown.
6. Apply damage
Mark the Condition Monitor
Record stress
7. Drain Resistance Test
Willpower (Drain power) Test. Dice: Spell Pool, totem, +2 per
add’l spell. 2 successes = 1 step. Overflow D S M L 0

Okay, (yet) another stupid question. Every damn mage carries a set of
optical binoculars ''cause with these, I'm a sniper." I can't find
anything in the rules to motivate this. Spells are not affected by range,
so reducing range penalties is pointless. Anyone? [Our 'real roleplayer'
says that the binoculars are color and don't need a rule. I say that color
without rules feels hokey. We're both right.]

More to come,

Keith

ps.
Manolis wrote:
>Munckin...Picture ME without any ethics!!!
This made my day. Thanks.

(btw, how is 'Manolis' pronounced?)

Keith Suderman
Florida State University
Department of Oceanography
850-980-3218
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<html>
Okay, I'm asking a stupid question.  sigh. 
 
I've been trying to assemble a short, sharp "players' screen"-
something like a GM screen, but for the players.  (My goal is to
move combats along.  I'm tired of calculating ALL the target
numbers...)  [It's currently nine pages long- not as sharp as I'd
hoped...  :)   ] 
 
Along the way, I've learned a lot (some good, some bad, some just
disturbing- why, for example, do you stage the wound up *before* the
damage resistance test in melee, but *after* it in ranged
combat?)... 
 
The question: 
So, if I cast a combat spell, it is resisted first by spell defense dice,
then by a spell resistance test.  Net successes are used to stage
the damage up.  (am I right so far?)  Is that damage then
resisted with Body?  I would assume so, but I can't find it in the
book.  And can the damage cause wound effects?  Again, I assume
so, but can't find a rule.  And how about Knockdown?  No
rules. 
 
Here's an idea.  This is my cheat sheet entry for spell
casting.  Is it right?  (I feel strangely vulnerable... 
:) 

<dl><div align="center">

<dd>SPELL casting (SR3 181)</div>

<dd>1. Make Sorcery Test
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Sorcery
(TN per spell) Test. Dice: Spell Pool, totem mods. (For multiple spells,
split dice. For area spells, withhold 2/1m to reduce radius, 1/1m to
increase radius, base radius = Magic.) TN: visibility, cover. Count
successes.
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>(EM:
Use Ranged Cbt Mods)
<dd>2. Resolve Spell Defense Test
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Spell
defense (Force) Test.  Count successes.
<dd>2a. Resolve Spell Resistance Test
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Living
targets may always resist.
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Body/Willpower/Intelligence
(Force) Test; count successes
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>(EM:
Substitute Dodge Test)
<dd>3. Compare successes
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Calculate
net successes.  Tie blocks spell.
<dd>4. Determine effect
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Effects
per spell description.  Damage: 2 successes = 1 step
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>0
L M
S D Overflow
<dd>5a.  Resist damage
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Body
(Force) Test.
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>2
successes = 1 step.
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Overflow
D S M L 0
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>(EM:
Use ½ Impact armor)
<dd>5b.  Determine wound effects
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Same
roll, open test.  TN = # of boxes lost.  # of Wound Effects =
TN  open roll + Overflow.  See Wound Effects.
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>(EM:
Lightning does add’l wound effect on 1-2 on 1D6)
<dd>5c. Determine Knockdown
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Body
(Force) Test.  Count successes.  See Knockdown.
<dd>6. Apply damage
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Mark
the Condition Monitor
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Record
stress
<dd>7. Drain Resistance Test
<dd><x-tab>        </x-tab>Willpower
(Drain power) Test.  Dice: Spell Pool, totem, +2 per add’l spell. 2
successes = 1 step. Overflow D S M L 0 
 
 
 

</dl>Okay, (yet) another stupid question.  Every damn mage carries a
set of optical binoculars ''cause with these, I'm a sniper."  I
can't find anything in the rules to motivate this.  Spells are not
affected by range, so reducing range penalties is pointless. 
Anyone?  [Our 'real roleplayer' says that the binoculars are color
and don't need a rule.  I say that color without rules feels
hokey.  We're both right.] 
 
More to come, 
 
Keith 
 
ps. 
Manolis wrote: 
<blockquote type=cite cite>Munckin...Picture ME without any
ethics!!! 
</blockquote>This made my day.  Thanks. 
 
(btw, how is 'Manolis' pronounced?) 
 
 
<div>Keith Suderman</div>
<div>Florida State University</div>
<div>Department of Oceanography</div>
850-980-3218
</html>

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From:	Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject:	Enlighten me (spellcasting)
Date:	Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:22:11 -0600

Message no. 2 "K. Suderman" wrote:

> I've been trying to assemble a short, sharp "players' screen"-
> something like a GM screen, but for the players. (My goal is to move
> combats along. I'm tired of calculating ALL the target numbers...)
> [It's currently nine pages long- not as sharp as I'd hoped... :) ]

I would advise against allowing players to calculate their own target
numbers. They are not aware of all the facts of a situation and will
usually err on their side.

> The question:
> So, if I cast a combat spell, it is resisted first by spell defense
> dice, then by a spell resistance test. Net successes are used to
> stage the damage up. (am I right so far?) Is that damage then
> resisted with Body? I would assume so, but I can't find it in the
> book. And can the damage cause wound effects? Again, I assume so,
> but can't find a rule. And how about Knockdown? No rules.

No the spell is only resisted once by the target attribute. After the
spell reistance test, the damage is staged up and the target takes
damage. No knockdown from Combat spells, but I use Knockdown from
Elemental Manipulation spells.

> SPELL casting (SR3 181)
> 1. Make Sorcery Test
> Sorcery (TN per spell) Test. Dice: Spell Pool, totem
> mods. (For multiple spells, split dice. For area spells, withhold
> 2/1m to reduce radius, 1/1m to increase radius, base radius > Magic.)
TN: visibility, cover. Count successes.
> (EM: Use Ranged Cbt Mods)
> 2. Resolve Spell Defense Test
> Spell defense (Force) Test. Count successes.
> 2a. Resolve Spell Resistance Test
> Living targets may always resist.
> Body/Willpower/Intelligence (Force) Test; count successes
> (EM: Substitute Dodge Test)
> 3. Compare successes
> Calculate net successes. Tie blocks spell.
> 4. Determine effect
> Effects per spell description. Damage: 2 successes = 1
> step
> 0 L M S D Overflow
> 5a. Resist damage
> Body (Force) Test.
> 2 successes = 1 step.
> Overflow D S M L 0
> (EM: Use œ Impact armor)

This is only valid for Elemental Manipulation spells. For Combat Spells,
this step does not exist.

> 5b. Determine wound effects
> Same roll, open test. TN = # of boxes lost. # of Wound
> Effects = TN open roll + Overflow. See Wound Effects.
> (EM: Lightning does add�l wound effect on 1-2 on 1D6)
> 5c. Determine Knockdown
> Body (Force) Test. Count successes. See Knockdown.

Doesn't apply to Combat spells. Only EM spells.

> 6. Apply damage
> Mark the Condition Monitor
> Record stress
> 7. Drain Resistance Test
> Willpower (Drain power) Test. Dice: Spell Pool, totem,
> +2 per add�l spell. 2 successes = 1 step. Overflow D S M L 0
>
> Okay, (yet) another stupid question. Every damn mage carries a set of
> optical binoculars ''cause with these, I'm a sniper." I can't find
> anything in the rules to motivate this. Spells are not affected by
> range, so reducing range penalties is pointless. Anyone? [Our 'real
> roleplayer' says that the binoculars are color and don't need a rule.
> I say that color without rules feels hokey. We're both right.]

This isn't really any different than a sniper with a silenced sniper
rifle is it? Sure the binocs can be carried in the pocket, but the
effect is the same. I'd just apply an additional penalty of say +2
because of the jerky nature of the binoculars.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

"You're just about as useless as JPEGs to Helen Keller."
-- Weird Al, It's All About the Pentiums

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	Enlighten me (spellcasting)
Date:	Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:27:11 -0500

Message no. 3 "K. Suderman" wrote:

> <SCHNIPPP (tm)>

> Okay, (yet) another stupid question. Every damn mage carries a set
> of optical binoculars ''cause with these, I'm a sniper." I can't
> find anything in the rules to motivate this. Spells are not
> affected by range, so reducing range penalties is pointless.
> Anyone? [Our 'real roleplayer' says that the binoculars are color
> and don't need a rule. I say that color without rules feels hokey.
> We're both right.]
>

Ah, but remember, the spells are LOS. With a pair of optical binocs,
you can see MUCH farther, and thus can hit people much farther away.
That's the reason some of the mages I've seen carry binocs. Simple,
neh?

>
> More to come,
>
> Keith
>
> ps.
> Manolis wrote:
>
>> Munckin...Picture ME without any ethics!!!
>
> This made my day. Thanks.
>
> (btw, how is 'Manolis' pronounced?)
>
> Keith SudermanFlorida State UniversityDepartment of
> Oceanography850-980-3218

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and
the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+
m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M P

From:	Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject:	Enlighten me (spellcasting)
Date:	Mon, 20 Mar 2000 04:35:44 +0200

Message no. 4 K. Suderman wrote:
>
> Okay, I'm asking a stupid question. sigh.
>
> I've been trying to assemble a short, sharp "players' screen"-
> something like a GM screen, but for the players. (My goal is to move
> combats along. I'm tired of calculating ALL the target numbers...)
> [It's currently nine pages long- not as sharp as I'd hoped... :) ]
>
> Along the way, I've learned a lot (some good, some bad, some just
> disturbing- why, for example, do you stage the wound up *before* the
> damage resistance test in melee, but *after* it in ranged combat?)...

It actually makes no difference.
1) Calculate the extra successes of the attacker.
2) Roll for dodge(if the player wants) with combat pool dice only
and deduct the successes of the dodger from the attacker's successes.
If the dodger has MORE successes (not equal) the attack fails
completely.
If not, the extra successes stage up the damage level, which is then
resisted with body and any additional CP dice( the player decideshow
many).
>
> The question:
> So, if I cast a combat spell, it is resisted first by spell defense
> dice, then by a spell resistance test. Net successes are used to
> stage the damage up. (am I right so far?) Is that damage then
> resisted with Body? I would assume so, but I can't find it in the
> book. And can the damage cause wound effects? Again, I assume so,
> but can't find a rule. And how about Knockdown? No rules.
>
Spells are different.
1) Calculate the extra successes of the attacker.
2) Resist with body (if Type P) or Willpower (if Type M) or other
(as noted in specific spells). In these tests only spell defense
dice may be added.If SAME OR MORE successes are rolled by
the defender the spell fails. If not stage damage level apropriately
with net successes.
3) Apply damage with no further resistance or reductions.
It may seem terrible, but remember that target numbers for spells are
fairly high (Body and willpower are usually 5+ on all players with
some experience).
Elemental manipulationwork as ranged attacks and can be doged and
resisted
as mentioned on the first example.
See the relativity? They have a fixed TN 4, so the developers made it
easy
for characters to defend against such a potentially damaging spell
category.
Remember spell defence, shielding and reflecting. They save lives.

> Here's an idea. This is my cheat sheet entry for spell casting. Is
> it right? (I feel strangely vulnerable... :)
>
> SPELL casting (SR3 181)
> 1. Make Sorcery Test
> Sorcery (TN per spell) Test. Dice: Spell Pool, totem
> mods. (For multiple spells, split dice. For area spells, withhold
> 2/1m to reduce radius, 1/1m to increase radius, base radius > Magic.)
TN: visibility, cover. Count successes.
> (EM: Use Ranged Cbt Mods)
> 2. Resolve Spell Defense Test
> Spell defense (Force) Test.

USING ONLY SPELL DEFENSE DICE. Count successes.
>

2a. Resolve Spell Resistance Test
> Living targets may always resist.
> Body/Willpower/Intelligence (Force) Test;

USING ONLY THE APPROPRIATE ATTRIBUTE AND NO ADDITIONAL DICE. count
successes

> (EM: Substitute Dodge Test)

THEN FOLLOWED BY AREGULAR ATTRIBUTE RESISTANSE AS ABOVE (2a).

> 3. Compare successes
> Calculate net successes. Tie blocks spell.
> 4. Determine effect
> Effects per spell description. Damage: 2 successes = 1
> step
> 0 L M S D Overflow

> ((((((( 5a. Resist damage
> Body (Force) Test. THis step has allready been resolved in 2a
> 2 successes = 1 step. So Skip it.
> Overflow D S M L 0
> (EM: Use œ Impact armor) )))))))))

> 5b. Determine wound effects
> Same roll, open test. TN = # of boxes lost. # of Wound
> Effects = TN open roll + Overflow. See Wound Effects.
> (EM: Lightning does add�l wound effect on 1-2 on 1D6)
> 5c. Determine Knockdown
> Body (Force) Test. Count successes. See Knockdown.

Exactly, knockdown depends on the power of the attack
(ANY attack with a power rating, not only Elem. manipulations.

> 6. Apply damage
> Mark the Condition Monitor
> Record stress
> 7. Drain Resistance Test
> Willpower (Drain power) Test. Dice: Spell Pool, totem,
> +2 per add�l spell. 2 successes = 1 step. Overflow D S M L 0
>
> Okay, (yet) another stupid question. Every damn mage carries a set of
> optical binoculars ''cause with these, I'm a sniper." I can't find
> anything in the rules to motivate this. Spells are not affected by
> range, so reducing range penalties is pointless. Anyone? [Our 'real
> roleplayer' says that the binoculars are color and don't need a rule.
> I say that color without rules feels hokey. We're both right.]
>
> More to come,
>
> Keith
>
Remember that in tricky situations the GM may ask for a perception test
before the mage can even DETECT the target. Think Carribean distances
in pirate naval warfare, think hidden sniper one kilometer away, think
copter pilot invisible due to glare (have you noticed that glare is
lessened the closer you get to the reflecting surface?). I play a mage
with cybereyes with electromagnification 3. I also use a range finder
in them. It can help me target the center of an area spell exactly so
that I can hit someone standing next to me and not hit myself with it!
Imaging is everything to mages.

> ps.
> Manolis wrote:
>
> > Munckin...Picture ME without any ethics!!!
> >
> This made my day. Thanks.
>
> (btw, how is 'Manolis' pronounced?)
>
It is pronounced ''ManOlis'' (emphasisis on the middle syllable,
with a curt O like ''toll'' and sounds like
MAN-O-LIS (MAN as in ''man'', ''human'' O like 'prOper'. 'tOll',
'troll' and LIS like 'kIss', blIss'.)

It is the equinalent of Manuel or lovingly Manny in the English
language and derives from the Hebrew name of Jesus EMMANUIL.
It means ''god be with you''
(EM= you, with you MANU=God IL=ending of name).

English = Emmanuel
French = Emmanuel
German = Immanuel
Italian = Manolo
Spanish = Manuel
russian = Manuilo

or for you :

The Wiz

(that comes from first ever SR character who was NOT a mage.
Some day I will tell you about him)

From:	K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject:	Enlighten me (spellcasting)
Date:	Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:16:25 -0500

Message no. 5 > > Along the way, I've learned a lot (some good, some bad, some just
> > disturbing- why, for example, do you stage the wound up *before* the
> > damage resistance test in melee, but *after* it in ranged combat?)...
>
>It actually makes no difference.

Um... Because of rounding, if you have an odd number of net successes
(i.e. Successes to hit minus successes to dodge) and an even number of
successes in the damage resistance test (a situation which will occur
roughly 1 out of 4 times), staging the wound up before the damage
resistance test actually reduces the damage by one level (i.e. you lose the
extra success).
That's not really a problem- just an observation. I don't think
anything is lost by changing the order of operations. Staging damage
before the damage resistance test does allow players to calculate their
damage and report it as a wound (e.g. "I hit this goon for 9S.") rather
than reporting it as base damage plus number of successes (e.g. "I hit this
goon for 9M with 3 successes.") which I hope will speed combat up a
bit. [With the caveat that players are sometimes *quite* generous when
calculating their own target numbers... :) ]

>> If not, the extra successes stage up the damage level, which is then
>resisted with body and any additional CP dice( the player decideshow
>many).
Note that this was the order of operations in SR1 and SR2. SR3 doesn't
stage damage until after the damage resistance test (p 109).
I wonder why they changed it... I wonder if they know they
changed it... :)

<<snip my cheat sheet and comments. Thank you everyone. I have made the
recommended changes>>

>> Okay, (yet) another stupid question. Every damn mage carries a set of
> > optical binoculars

Three replies:

>Remember that in tricky situations the GM may ask for a perception test...

>This isn't really any different than a sniper with a silenced sniper
>rifle is it? Sure the binocs can be carried in the pocket, but the
>effect is the same. I'd just apply an additional penalty of say +2
>because of the jerky nature of the binoculars.

>Ah, but remember, the spells are LOS. With a pair of optical binocs,
>you can see MUCH farther, and thus can hit people much farther away.
>That's the reason some of the mages I've seen carry binocs. Simple,
>neh?

These are all good reasons to carry binoculars. Essentially, binoculars
offset penalties due to range, much like imaging scopes do. However, I
have not been able to find range modifiers for either perception or spell
targeting, so I don't understand what is being offset. What page are they
on? Or are these house rules? GM fiat?
(btw, LOS on a sphere (e.g. Earth) depends on the curvature of the
surface. On Earth, LOS is 20-30 miles, iirc, assuming no intervening
terrain (e.g. plains, oceans). Unless the binoculars have some *very*
peculiar properties, they will not increase that distance. TN to hit that
speck on the horizon with a Hellblast: 4.)

Keith

Keith Suderman
Florida State University
Department of Oceanography
850-980-3218

From:	Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject:	Enlighten me (spellcasting)
Date:	Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:51:49 -0500

Message no. 6 "K. Suderman" wrote:

> >> Okay, (yet) another stupid question. Every damn mage carries a set of
> > > optical binoculars

<snip previous reasons>

> These are all good reasons to carry binoculars. Essentially, binoculars
> offset penalties due to range, much like imaging scopes do. However, I
> have not been able to find range modifiers for either perception or spell
> targeting, so I don't understand what is being offset. What page are they
> on? Or are these house rules? GM fiat?

Combat spells have a range of LOS because all you really need is the
semi-psychic connection of "seeing" your target. You don't even have
to really recognize your target, just seeing a meta-human form is
enough. Remember, combat spells travel through astral space at
extreme speed and so aren't affected by wind resistance or any of the
other things that affect normal ranged attacks.

There are no range modifiers for using binocs with spells, because
there aren't range categories for combat spells.

Note, IMO this ruling came about before the release of 3rd Edition
which moved all the elemental combat spells to the manipulation
category.

> (btw, LOS on a sphere (e.g. Earth) depends on the curvature of the
> surface. On Earth, LOS is 20-30 miles, iirc, assuming no intervening
> terrain (e.g. plains, oceans). Unless the binoculars have some *very*
> peculiar properties, they will not increase that distance. TN to hit that
> speck on the horizon with a Hellblast: 4.)

I imagine binoculars are more useful in ensuring that your target is
actually the one you intend. And not some unexpected innocent.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."

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