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Message no. 1
From: "Falin \"Dark-Claw\"" <jhyatt@****.WINCOM.NET>
Subject: FASA novels
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:41:24 -0500
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Heres the list current list of novel releases from FASA. What happened to
the lucifer deck was it dropped.

5539 Black Madonna
5540 Preying for Keeps
5542 Dead Air
5627 * Steel Rain (Jan. '97)
5628 * Shadowboxer (Mar. '97)


>>>>>[ The only thing that all fear is Knowledge ]<<<<<
-Falin "Dark-Claw" <00:00:00/01-21-57>


jhyatt@********.com
jhyatt@******.net


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<html><head></head><BODY
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><font size=2 =
color="#000000" face="Courier">&#009;Heres the list
current list of =
novel releases from FASA<font size=2>. What happened to the lucifer =
deck was it dropped.<font size=2><br><br>5539
&nbsp;&nbsp;Black =
Madonna<br>5540 &nbsp;&nbsp;Preying for Keeps<br>5542
&nbsp;&nbsp;Dead =
Air<br>5627 &nbsp;&nbsp;* &nbsp;Steel Rain (Jan. '97)<br>5628 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;* &nbsp;Shadowboxer (Mar. '97)<br><br><font
size=2><br> =
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;[ The only thing that all fear is Knowledge =
]&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Falin =
&quot;Dark-Claw&quot; &lt;00:00:00/01-21-57&gt;
<br><br><br><font =
color="#0000FF"><u>jhyatt@********.com</u><font =
color="#000000"><br><font =
color="#0000FF"><u>jhyatt@******.net</u><font =
color="#000000"><br><br><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
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Message no. 2
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:25:22 -0500
At 09:41 PM 1/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
> Heres the list current list of novel releases from FASA. What
happened to
>the lucifer deck was it dropped.
>
>5539 Black Madonna
>5540 Preying for Keeps
>5542 Dead Air
>5627 * Steel Rain (Jan. '97)
>5628 * Shadowboxer (Mar. '97)
>
<shrug>

It couldn't have been dropped, as I just read it a couple weeks ago... Not
too bad, IMO... Not great, but...

Bull
--
Bull-the-cuddley-Kojack-imitating-Star-Wars-lovin'-ork-decker

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

Less than 2 weeks till Star Wars!
Message no. 3
From: "Falin \"Dark-Claw\"" <jhyatt@****.WINCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:09:26 -0500
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> It couldn't have been dropped, as I just read it a couple weeks ago...
Not
> too bad, IMO... Not great, but...

Great then it is out I'll have to get it right away. But still why isn't
it on the list.

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<html><head></head><BODY
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><font size=2 =
color="#000000" face="Courier">&gt; It couldn't have
been dropped, =
as I just read it a couple weeks ago... Not<br>&gt; too bad, IMO... =
&nbsp;Not great, but...<br> <br>&#009;Great then it is out I'll have
to =
get it right away. But still why isn't it on the list.</p>
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Message no. 4
From: Glenn Royer <cyberspunk@********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:19:34 -0500
SH>At 09:41 PM 1/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
SH>> Heres the list current list of novel releases from FASA. What
SH>happened to
SH>>the lucifer deck was it dropped.
SH>>
SH>>5539 Black Madonna
SH>>5540 Preying for Keeps
SH>>5542 Dead Air
SH>>5627 * Steel Rain (Jan. '97)
SH>>5628 * Shadowboxer (Mar. '97)
SH>>
SH><shrug>
A
SH> t couldn't have been dropped, as I just read it a couple weeks ago... Not
SH>too bad, IMO... Not great, but...

I just read Preying for Keeps and enjoyed it... story about a nice
bunch of well prepared, professional, smart-as-nails team. oh wait...
that didnt sound right. i enjoyed it because it didnt deal with
earth-shaking revelations or deep dark centuries-ancient (read:ELVES)
magic and, surprisingly, DIDN'T have an elf for the lead protagonist.
The elves were on the other side of the fence this time. well, it
seems that way, but really it.. oh well never mind. read it yourself.
Anyone else read this novel and have thoughts on it?
By the way, I'm new to the list, hello guys...! (and gals...!)
-Cyberspunk
SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net
Message no. 5
From: "V.A.L.I.S." <Campbellcc@***.HENDRIX.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:53:11 +0100
>I just read Preying for Keeps and enjoyed it... story about a nice
>bunch of well prepared, professional, smart-as-nails team. oh wait...
>that didnt sound right. i enjoyed it because it didnt deal with
>earth-shaking revelations or deep dark centuries-ancient (read:ELVES)
>magic and, surprisingly, DIDN'T have an elf for the lead protagonist.
>The elves were on the other side of the fence this time. well, it
>seems that way, but really it.. oh well never mind. read it yourself.
>Anyone else read this novel and have thoughts on it?

I just finished burning bright, and worlds w/o end. I liked 'em both ok,
though I'm confused about the elves...I mean, who gives a flying f***. They
didn't do anything to stop the horrors last time, and they're (part) of the
reason they're coming back so soon (instead of in the year 7000) ((I mean,
who taught blood magic to the azzies, or the ghost dance to the
amerindians)). Does anyone know if the bugs have any direct connection to
the horrors? And what is it with the elves that makes _them_ so freaking
special. We were the ones here for the last umpteen thousand years. Why no
immortal orc/troll/human, or god-forbid dwarf techno-magical cabals. Anyone
ever here of a round dynamic dwarf character in _any_ FASA product. Why
bother including them? For **&* compatablilty attraction?

Second question.
I like the fasa products a lot, but they leave things too open. I don't
know when I'm stepping on toes. Their worlds are very detailed, but then
comes along something like azatlan, where no _why's_ are given to what's
going on. Sure they _have_ blood magic, but who taught it to them? What is
_really_ going on there. I was kind of hopeing for something more in the GM
section then flat out rules for blood magic ("Mr. GM here is a nifty new
way for baddies the players are going to shoot to resist drain, by KNIFING
themselves) I've had this problem with the other books two. Like those four
pages in Matrix 2.0. What's going to happen? Magic and tech mix? Everyone
lives whole life jacked in? The matrix just gets up and walks off? Huh?
Answers, I want answers. (or at least _more_)

Ammendment: Yes, I am a good GM and will do what I want, taking what I like
and what I don't. I don't _need_ this stuff, and I appreaceate how open
they leave it for the GM's, but I kind of feel like it's a little _too_
open. I'm a new Shadowrun player/GM and sometimes (well, a lot) I feel
lost. Just looking for a few signposts.

your opinions and info is greatly appreaceated.

V.A.L.I.S.-taking-a-break-from-writing-a-paper-and-hopeing-more-is-said-about-th
e-orbital-platform-than-new-fasions-in-the-next-FASA-suppliment.

See! and not one word about woodc-ZOT!!!


Sincerely,

Courtney C. Campbell...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
* Courtney C. Campbell *
* Campbellcc@*****.hendrix.edu *
* Http://www.hendrix.edu/homes/stu/campbellcc/ *
* ____| *
* |_|__ "I am not mad. *
* | I am intrested in freedom." *
* -James Douglas Morrison *
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*
*"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai*
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matter is plastic in the face of mind
-Tractates Cryptica Scriptura
Phillip Kindred Dick/VALIS
Message no. 6
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 02:22:17 -0500
At 10:09 PM 1/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> It couldn't have been dropped, as I just read it a couple weeks ago...
>Not
>> too bad, IMO... Not great, but...
>
> Great then it is out I'll have to get it right away. But still why
isn't
>it on the list.
>
I guess they missed it when they made the list... It happens from time to
time...

Also, BTW, no offense meant, but...

>Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\ReFASAno.htm"
>
QUIT sending fragging attachments! My computer REALLY hates translating
the things...

Bull
--
Bull-the-cuddley-Kojack-imitating-Star-Wars-lovin'-ork-decker

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

Less than 2 weeks till Star Wars!
Message no. 7
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 02:29:20 -0500
At 10:19 PM 1/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I just read Preying for Keeps and enjoyed it... story about a nice
>bunch of well prepared, professional, smart-as-nails team. oh wait...
>that didnt sound right. i enjoyed it because it didnt deal with
>earth-shaking revelations or deep dark centuries-ancient (read:ELVES)
>magic and, surprisingly, DIDN'T have an elf for the lead protagonist.
>The elves were on the other side of the fence this time. well, it
>seems that way, but really it.. oh well never mind. read it yourself.
>Anyone else read this novel and have thoughts on it?
>
I thought it was very well done... The writing seemed a tad choppy, but it
was pretty good...

Personally, I don't mind the major earth shattering style books, and I
think FASA does a good job of spacing them out and mixing in a fair number
of Good, clean, fun novels about everyday shmucks running the shadows...
The books with the big stuff only come out about once every three or four
novels, so they tend to be a nice diversion...

Out of the new books, Dead Air was well done, gives good insight (sort of)
into Rigging, Urban Brawl, and Simsense recording. Also, it was written by
fellow Srn list member Jack Koke!

Black Madonna was somewhat crappy and disappointing (IMO), and DID deal
with some sort of major mega bad guy...

The Lucifer Deck was pretty good... It introduced something new into the
SR world, but at the same time it wasn't Earth Shattering... It was kept
fairly tame and mild, all things considered (especially when compared to
Horrors and teh IE).

Just my rundown on the newest SR novels...

> By the way, I'm new to the list, hello guys...! (and gals...!)
>-Cyberspunk
>
Hello and Welcome, CS... I'm Bull, and ask anyone, you'll see a lot of my
drivel..:)

Good to have you aboard...:)

Bull-the-book-reading-and-newbie-welcoming-ork-decker
--
Bull-the-cuddley-Kojack-imitating-Star-Wars-lovin'-ork-decker

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

Less than 2 weeks till Star Wars!
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 02:51:30 -0500
At 09:53 PM 1/20/97 +0100, you wrote:
>I just finished burning bright, and worlds w/o end. I liked 'em both ok,
>though I'm confused about the elves...I mean, who gives a flying f***. They
>didn't do anything to stop the horrors last time, and they're (part) of the
>reason they're coming back so soon (instead of in the year 7000) ((I mean,
>who taught blood magic to the azzies, or the ghost dance to the
>amerindians)).
>
It is possible that they learned it on their own... The Aztechs and Mayans
were practicing a form of Blood Magic long ago, and some cults (rumor and
myth has it) still do... The whole Aztech/Atzlan thing is just a
continuation of cultural stories... Same goes for teh Indians...
According to the Grimmy and other things, they learned magic first because
to this day, some Indians still beleive in the spirits and magic. I think
the IE had little, if anything, to do with either of those races learning
magic...

> Does anyone know if the bugs have any direct connection to
>the horrors?
>
My take on it is this: There's a saying (I don't know if it's my GM's
original or not) that goes "As above, so below", which means that even as
spirits, bugs follow a set pattern (of a sort) that is similar to their RL
counterparts... i.e., Hives, colonies, Mantids hunting otehr bugs, they're
allergic to bug spray, etc...

I think (this is my own personal theory, developed by my ork persona) that
As bugs are to us, Insect Spirits are to Horrors... that make the Horrors
some really BIG Bad ASSED Mo-Fo's... And that's frightening...

> And what is it with the elves that makes _them_ so freaking
>special. We were the ones here for the last umpteen thousand years.
>
traditionally in Fantasy, the elves are always special... And so it
continues with SR...

>Why no
>immortal orc/troll/human, or god-forbid dwarf techno-magical cabals. Anyone
>ever here of a round dynamic dwarf character in _any_ FASA product. Why
>bother including them? For **&* compatablilty attraction?
>
Ok... First off, it's hinted at in Both Threats and on FASA's home page
where they talk about the Draco Foundation Members that there may be
Immortal Trolls... Twice now it's been hinted at. Also, we've discussed
the possibility (and I think it was also hinted at in teh Germany
Sourcebook) of a hidden Dwarven enclave on par with either of the Tir's...

And, the Dwarves played (AFAIK, I'm not too familiar with ED) a big part in
Earthdawn... I think, at least in some areas, that they were the dominant
race...

plus, with their Wilpower bonus... They make some great spell chuckers.

>Second question.
>I like the fasa products a lot, but they leave things too open. I don't
>know when I'm stepping on toes. Their worlds are very detailed, but then
>comes along something like azatlan, where no _why's_ are given to what's
>going on. Sure they _have_ blood magic, but who taught it to them? What is
>_really_ going on there. I was kind of hopeing for something more in the GM
>section then flat out rules for blood magic ("Mr. GM here is a nifty new
>way for baddies the players are going to shoot to resist drain, by KNIFING
>themselves) I've had this problem with the other books two. Like those four
>pages in Matrix 2.0. What's going to happen? Magic and tech mix? Everyone
>lives whole life jacked in? The matrix just gets up and walks off? Huh?
>Answers, I want answers. (or at least _more_)
>
Mainly, because they are keeping a real, dynamic, growing world going. If
they gave away everything, then it quickly becomes common knowledge to
everyone, including the players... The Super Tuesday campiagn was SO much
cooler, cause our group was actually rooting for certain individuals, not
knowing who would win (Ok, we all expected the Dragon to win, but we
weren't sure). Half my gaming group knew what was in threats before th GM
got ahold of it... Of course, we didn't TELL him we knew what was in it,
but... There's not much you can do to prevent the players natural
curiosity from kicking in...

Plus, as they are trying to keep the world real, we only get to know about
what's semi-public knowledge... A lot of what's in the books is half news
reports, half speculation on Shadowland.

As for Blood Magic... You don't need stats and rules for it, because the
players aren't supposed to have access to it. And if tehy don't have
access to it, keep it a mystery... Much more challenging and exciting for
the players that way...

>Ammendment: Yes, I am a good GM and will do what I want, taking what I like
>and what I don't. I don't _need_ this stuff, and I appreaceate how open
>they leave it for the GM's, but I kind of feel like it's a little _too_
>open. I'm a new Shadowrun player/GM and sometimes (well, a lot) I feel
>lost. Just looking for a few signposts.
>
I agree... At times it can be frustrating... But just sit back and enjoy
it...

They update their stuff fairly regularly, so you should have planty to work
with in the confines that FASA gives ya...:)

>your opinions and info is greatly appreaceated.
>
Well, you got 'em...:)

>V.A.L.I.S.-taking-a-break-from-writing-a-paper-and-hopeing-more-is-said-abo
ut-th
>e-orbital-platform-than-new-fasions-in-the-next-FASA-suppliment.
>
I think we won't see stuff about that for some time, but i think you could
wing that fairly easily without mucking up the world too badly... I'm
looking forward to Cyberpirates.... Me and Johnny are already saving to
buy a big boat...

Just imagin the Big, cuddly ork decker with an eye patch and saying "Arg!"...

Maybe a parrot or two...:):):)

>See! and not one word about woodc-ZOT!!!
>
Behave...

Bull-the-gee-I-actually-posted-a-serious-post!-ork-decekr
--
Bull-the-cuddley-Kojack-imitating-Star-Wars-lovin'-ork-decker

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

Less than 2 weeks till Star Wars!
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:14:22 +0100
V.A.L.I.S. said on 21:53/20 Jan 97...

> I just finished burning bright, and worlds w/o end. I liked 'em both ok,
> though I'm confused about the elves...I mean, who gives a flying f***. They
> didn't do anything to stop the horrors last time

If you read Earthdawn, you'll know that _nobody_ could stop the Horrors.

> Does anyone know if the bugs have any direct connection to the horrors?

They don't. Insect spirits and Horrors are two totally different things,
separated by about 2000 years in the mana cycle.

> And what is it with the elves that makes _them_ so freaking special. We
> were the ones here for the last umpteen thousand years. Why no immortal
> orc/troll/human, or god-forbid dwarf techno-magical cabals. Anyone ever
> here of a round dynamic dwarf character in _any_ FASA product. Why
> bother including them? For **&* compatablilty attraction?

Haven't you heard? Elves Are Cool(R)!

Seriously, that would probably be part of the reason -- just about
everybody (Mike excepted, I believe) loves elves it seems, and Carl
Sargent most of all :) For some reason the buggers have an attraction
across all game systems that (new?) gamers find irresistable...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I wonder why anyone would want to name their kid after an airport...?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:08:13 +0000
|
|V.A.L.I.S. said on 21:53/20 Jan 97...
|
|> I just finished burning bright, and worlds w/o end. I liked 'em both ok,
|> though I'm confused about the elves...I mean, who gives a flying f***. They
|> didn't do anything to stop the horrors last time
|
|If you read Earthdawn, you'll know that _nobody_ could stop the Horrors.

They couldn't even PROTECT themselves proberly from the horrors....
Parlainth failed, and the only way the elves of Wyrmwood survived was by
mutilating themselves....

|> Does anyone know if the bugs have any direct connection to the horrors?
|
|They don't. Insect spirits and Horrors are two totally different things,
|separated by about 2000 years in the mana cycle.

Yep... In fact, the invae in earthdawn are a walkover....

|> And what is it with the elves that makes _them_ so freaking special. We
|> were the ones here for the last umpteen thousand years. Why no immortal
|> orc/troll/human, or god-forbid dwarf techno-magical cabals. Anyone ever
|> here of a round dynamic dwarf character in _any_ FASA product. Why
|> bother including them? For **&* compatablilty attraction?
|
|Haven't you heard? Elves Are Cool(R)!

I though that was "Elves are Cool (tm)!"
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Glenn Royer <cyberspunk@********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:40:40 -0500
SH>I just finished burning bright, and worlds w/o end. I liked 'em both ok,
SH>though I'm confused about the elves...I mean, who gives a flying f***. They
SH>didn't do anything to stop the horrors last time, and they're (part) of the
SH>reason they're coming back so soon (instead of in the year 7000) ((I mean,
SH>who taught blood magic to the azzies, or the ghost dance to the
SH>amerindians)). Does anyone know if the bugs have any direct connection to
SH>the horrors? And what is it with the elves that makes _them_ so freaking
SH>special. We were the ones here for the last umpteen thousand years. Why no
SH>immortal orc/troll/human, or god-forbid dwarf techno-magical cabals. Anyone
SH>ever here of a round dynamic dwarf character in _any_ FASA product. Why
SH>bother including them? For **&* compatablilty attraction?

I don't think the elves taught the azzies blood magic. I cant
speculate on how they got to their level of competency, but to my
knowledge the elves hate azzies and azzies hate elves, mainly over the
blood magic issue.
bugs and horrors... hooboy. i do think that Vergigorm looks a
whole lot like a bug. hmm... dunno. i havent heard anything about the
space around chicago being weak. Blood magic is supposed to speed the
process up a bit... i think it's more related to that sort of thing, but
thats purely speculation. In earthdawn, "Nethermancy" was horror magic,
and it reminded me a lot of blood magic demonstuff. I am wondering if
we're going to see them in the SR game in the future.
Also about the dwarves... AARRGH!!!! I am an adamant lover of
all things dwarf, and it has pained me to see SR play them down so
flippin much. my favorite character is a dwarf physad whose powers i
picked on the "stubborn-as-hell" characterization i love so much.
-Cyberspunk
SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net
Message no. 12
From: Glenn Royer <cyberspunk@********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:21:34 -0500
SH>Seriously, that would probably be part of the reason -- just about
SH>everybody (Mike excepted, I believe) loves elves it seems, and Carl
SH>Sargent most of all :) For some reason the buggers have an attraction
SH>across all game systems that (new?) gamers find irresistable...

Ecch!! Down with elves! Overthrow the pointy-eared flower
sniffing ballet dancers from the forests of Endor! Damn arrogant
immortal holier than friggin thou super magician FAIRIES! ACK! eww! I
hate elves! Sneaky bastard scheming dark and shadowy flowerfolk!
SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net
Message no. 13
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:33:39 EST
On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:14:22 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<snip>
>> Does anyone know if the bugs have any direct connection to the
>horrors?
>
>They don't. Insect spirits and Horrors are two totally different
>things,
>separated by about 2000 years in the mana cycle.
>

So why are Horrors coming so soon, if Bugs and the Enemy are separated by
that long a gap? Just how long have the _Bugs_ been here, anyway?

>> And what is it with the elves that makes _them_ so freaking special.
>We
>> were the ones here for the last umpteen thousand years. Why no
>immortal
>> orc/troll/human, or god-forbid dwarf techno-magical cabals. Anyone
>ever
>> here of a round dynamic dwarf character in _any_ FASA product. Why
>> bother including them? For **&* compatablilty attraction?
>
>Haven't you heard? Elves Are Cool(R)!
>
>Seriously, that would probably be part of the reason -- just about
>everybody (Mike excepted, I believe) loves elves it seems, and Carl
>Sargent most of all :) For some reason the buggers have an attraction
>across all game systems that (new?) gamers find irresistable...

It's the +2 bonus to Charisma:))

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 14
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:21:07 -0500
> Ecch!! Down with elves! Overthrow the pointy-eared flower
>sniffing ballet dancers from the forests of Endor! Damn arrogant
>immortal holier than friggin thou super magician FAIRIES! ACK! eww! I
>hate elves! Sneaky bastard scheming dark and shadowy flowerfolk!
>SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net
>

Yes! Rally ro me my most noble breathern. The pointy-eared ones shall be be
overthrown.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:57:25 +0100
Spike said on 15:08/21 Jan 97...

> |If you read Earthdawn, you'll know that _nobody_ could stop the Horrors.
>
> They couldn't even PROTECT themselves proberly from the horrors....
> Parlainth failed, and the only way the elves of Wyrmwood survived was by
> mutilating themselves....

Plus all the other kaers that failed to keep the Horrors out. These
critters can take their time if they want to, there are lots of mentions
in ED books about Horrors spending decades to break through the powerful
magical defenses. Nobody is going to just wave a wand about and stop the
Horrors.

> |Haven't you heard? Elves Are Cool(R)!
>
> I though that was "Elves are Cool (tm)!"

It used to be, but we need to protect our interests better :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I wonder why anyone would want to name their kid after an airport...?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:12:45 +0100
L Canthros said on 17:33/21 Jan 97...

> So why are Horrors coming so soon, if Bugs and the Enemy are separated by
> that long a gap? Just how long have the _Bugs_ been here, anyway?

The Great Ghost Dance and similar rituals created areas where the mana
level is (almost) high enough for the Horrors to cross to the physical
plane: a mana spike. Once through, they don't need as much mana to stay
as it took for them to get here.
Harlequin's Back (adventure) is about trying to stop them from using the
place where the GGD was performed as a jumping point. In House Of The Sun
(novel) there are magicians trying to open a gateway in a similar area on
Hawaii.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I wonder why anyone would want to name their kid after an airport...?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:39:27 -0800
Bull wrote:
>
> At 10:19 PM 1/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >I just read Preying for Keeps and enjoyed it... story about a nice
> >bunch of well prepared, professional, smart-as-nails team. oh wait...
> >that didnt sound right. i enjoyed it because it didnt deal with
> >earth-shaking revelations or deep dark centuries-ancient (read:ELVES)
> >magic and, surprisingly, DIDN'T have an elf for the lead protagonist.

> I thought it was very well done... The writing seemed a tad choppy, but it
> was pretty good...

I tend to rate books primarily on content and I was so relieved to see
real shadowrunners in a SR novel, doing real shadowrunner stuff.
Definate thumbs up.

>
> Personally, I don't mind the major earth shattering style books, and I
> think FASA does a good job of spacing them out and mixing in a fair number
> of Good, clean, fun novels about everyday shmucks running the shadows...
> The books with the big stuff only come out about once every three or four
> novels, so they tend to be a nice diversion...

I think they tend to be too common, if the world needs to be saved a
couple times a year what happens when somebody fails.

>
> Out of the new books, Dead Air was well done, gives good insight (sort of)
> into Rigging, Urban Brawl, and Simsense recording. Also, it was written by
> fellow Srn list member Jack Koke!

Great book, I do of course wonder why only elves can be great Combat
bikers... I really do enjoy books about people rather than events.

>
> Black Madonna was somewhat crappy and disappointing (IMO), and DID deal
> with some sort of major mega bad guy...

These two guys write very engaging books with terrible endings, so far
they are three for three on that count, it wasn't so bad the first time
but has really worn thin by now.

>
> The Lucifer Deck was pretty good... It introduced something new into the
> SR world, but at the same time it wasn't Earth Shattering... It was kept
> fairly tame and mild, all things considered (especially when compared to
> Horrors and teh IE).

I wish they had spent a little time with an opposing viewpoint, hers the
case in question: Chinese magic can't work because it disagrees with
European magic, sure it was an in character assertion but it was never
refuted, qeustioned or for that matter mentioned again. This just seems
very out of place in SR's magic system, it would be like saying that
Egyptions call their totem Gator, because crocodile doesn't really
exist, the beauty of the Sr magic system is it's broad base of cultures
and practices that can be summerized with one system.
Message no. 18
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:50:54 +0000
|So why are Horrors coming so soon, if Bugs and the Enemy are separated by
|that long a gap? Just how long have the _Bugs_ been here, anyway?

Read (or flick through) Harlequins back for an answer to that question....
(It's all to do with the great ghost dance....)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:21:33 -0005
On 20 Jan 97 at 21:53, V.A.L.I.S. wrote:

>
> I just finished burning bright, and worlds w/o end. I liked 'em both ok,
> though I'm confused about the elves...I mean, who gives a flying f***. They
> didn't do anything to stop the horrors last time, and they're (part) of the
> reason they're coming back so soon (instead of in the year 7000) ((I mean, who
> taught blood magic to the azzies, or the ghost dance to the amerindians)).
It wasn't the elves on either count. Reread WWE again... the indians were
taught by Wovoka... who in reality is Thais.. Aina's son by Yrshgrathe (a
horror). Thais motivation seem to have been attempting to protect the indians,
because they had accepted him. He originally taught them the ritual in the
1800s and thus was responsible for the orignal Ghost Dancers. Most likely he
taught it to Daniel as well.
As for Aztlan and blood magic, not even the elves know where they learned that
from and they are somewhat concerned about it. (I'd like to say very
concerned, but it's hard to know what they really think about anything.) I do
have personal theory about it however. It's a bit convoluted so bear with me.

The Aztec Sun God is the most important figure in Aztec culture. He is
believed to be a "good" god, even though he demanded blood sacrifices. His
appearance is that of a giant man/snake, having a humanoid torso and arms, the
lower body of a snake and a head that is half human-half snake. This is a
generalization of his appearance...it varies according to what source you
check.

In Aztlan, FASA made specific references to the Sun God and some
peculularities surrounding the main teocalli or temple. I'll let you folks
look that up on your own ;)

All the major teocalli glow like small suns on the astral, which indicates
some major mojo going on. Keep in mind that only two things create light on
the astral, magic and life. Since the temples ARE NOT living things, then
there must be a lot of magic/mana building up there. One of the immortals
confirms this when discussing the summoning of blood spirits, stating that such
things need a "certain enviroment" or mana level to be conjured.

My theory is this, that the Aztec Sun God was in reality a horror, probably
Yrsthgrathe (take a look at pictures of him... there's a good one in ED, p269).
This horro has been teaching the Aztlaners blood magic rituals. Why? Because
blood magic draws the horrors. I've also got a theory that ties in with this
about why those temples glow so brightly.. that is where that mana is coming
from. We know that the horrors come from "a magic rich netherworld" (from the
Horror source book, it in the introduction). Perhaps the teocalli are being
used to siphon off small amounts of mana from this metaplane. It's not much,
kinda like trying to drain an ocean with a straw. Then again... if you have a
few thousand straws it adds up. Now thing about this... any pyramid can have a
temple in it... we know this from the Aztlan source book. Now think about all
those Aztecnology pyramid/arcologies..... Pleasant nightmares folks.

> Does anyone know if the bugs have any direct connection to the horrors? And
The bugs, along with wraiths, are considered a harbinger of the arrival of the
Horrors. In ED the Invae and Wraiths appeared in 150 TD... the Scrouge began
858 years later in 1008 TD. The part that really worries me is that according
to my estimates... the wraiths and bugs should not have appeared in our world
yet. They weren't due for another 1500 years!

> what is it with the elves that makes _them_ so freaking special. We were the
> ones here for the last umpteen thousand years. Why no immortal
> orc/troll/human, or god-forbid dwarf techno-magical cabals. Anyone ever here
There may be just such a cabal in Cal Free... very mysterious group of dwarves
there. And then there are the Dwarf and Troll kingdoms in what's left of
Germany. We don't knows going on in Russia (who knows whats out in the frozen
tundra of Sibera...). But no... FASA hasn't done much with them, and I think
they should.

>
> Second question.
> I like the fasa products a lot, but they leave things too open. I don't
> know when I'm stepping on toes. Their worlds are very detailed, but then
> comes along something like azatlan, where no _why's_ are given to what's
> going on. Sure they _have_ blood magic, but who taught it to them? What is
See above.

> _really_ going on there. I was kind of hopeing for something more in the GM
> section then flat out rules for blood magic ("Mr. GM here is a nifty new way
I think FASA is saving this for future products. I'm guessing here... but I
have this feeling that previous staff members had plans to introduce the
Horrors early into the SR world. Current thinking seems to go the other way...
keeping them out. The result is that there are a lot of unanswered questions
out there... some of which we may never have answers too.

> for baddies the players are going to shoot to resist drain, by KNIFING
> themselves) I've had this problem with the other books two. Like those four
> pages in Matrix 2.0. What's going to happen? Magic and tech mix? Everyone
> lives whole life jacked in? The matrix just gets up and walks off? Huh?
> Answers, I want answers. (or at least _more_)
I had a bit of a problem with V2.0 as well... okay.. actually I had some major
problems with it. Magic cannot exist inside the matrix because there is
nothing actually there for it to exist inside. It's like saying your going to
put a 10 lb. weight in a hologram of a box... I'll bet you 100 nuyen you get a
broken toe if you try! But... again.. V2.0 had the involvement of certain
people who are no longer with FASA... and I think they had different views on
what was possible in the Matrix (never mind it didn't make sense...).
Sometimes you just have to take it all with a large grain of salt and let it go
at that.
--

Ashelock
mailto woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."
Message no. 20
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:07:00 MST
> Ecch!! Down with elves! Overthrow the pointy-eared flower
>sniffing ballet dancers from the forests of Endor! Damn arrogant
>immortal holier than friggin thou super magician FAIRIES! ACK! eww! I
>hate elves! Sneaky bastard scheming dark and shadowy flowerfolk!
>SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW -
>http://Spacecst.net

At least they haven't started on some lost dark elf (drow) race. The dark
elf books by Salvatore were good, but D&D has so much dark elf this and dark
elf that. Every innkeeper is secretly a vampire, and lich, or in league
with dark elf slavers.

In shadowrun there is this saying "it isn't a shadowrun until you've been
screwed by your Johnson twice", well in current D&D game materials, "It
isn't an adventure until you've killed that damn vampire city guard member
who was selling prisoners as slaves to those eviiiill drow"

You can complain, but remember that it could be worse...

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 21
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:02:04 -0500
> For any who care, my next project to be published is a trilogy of SR
books
> called The Dragon Heart Saga. Book One, _Stranger Souls_, tells the story
of
> Ryan Mercury--Dunkelzahn main undercover operative as he tries to carry
out
> his mission in the aftermath of Dunkelzahn's assassination. Book Two,
> _Clockwork Asylum_, continues with Ryan as he searches for those
responsible
> for the dragon's death, and Book Three, _Beyond the Pale_, shows Ryan's
> fight to take the Dragon Heart to the metaplanes in time to stop Mr.
Darke.

<Homer Simpson voice on>
Mmmm . . . Mister Darke . . .
Now my runners are going to pay dearly! :-)

Dragon Heart?
Hopefully not something based of the movie of the same name?
Then again, gaining immortality from a deal with a dragon isn't that bad a
deal after all . . .

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"Not even God takes this long to get back."
Message no. 22
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:24:05 EST
On Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:12:45 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>L Canthros said on 17:33/21 Jan 97...
>
>> So why are Horrors coming so soon, if Bugs and the Enemy are
>separated by
>> that long a gap? Just how long have the _Bugs_ been here, anyway?
>
>The Great Ghost Dance and similar rituals created areas where the mana
>level is (almost) high enough for the Horrors to cross to the physical
>plane: a mana spike. Once through, they don't need as much mana to
>stay
>as it took for them to get here.
>Harlequin's Back (adventure) is about trying to stop them from using
>the
>place where the GGD was performed as a jumping point. In House Of The
>Sun
>(novel) there are magicians trying to open a gateway in a similar area
>on
>Hawaii.
>
Actually, I already knew most of that (sitting around on the list for six
months has really brought me up-to-date), except for the bit about
Hawai'i. But, the question which I was trying to ask is, if the Horrors
and the Bugs enter 2000 years apart from each other, just how long have
the Bugs been here, if the Horrors are starting to appear?

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:06:42 +0100
L Canthros said on 17:24/22 Jan 97...

> Actually, I already knew most of that (sitting around on the list for six
> months has really brought me up-to-date), except for the bit about
> Hawai'i. But, the question which I was trying to ask is, if the Horrors
> and the Bugs enter 2000 years apart from each other, just how long have
> the Bugs been here, if the Horrors are starting to appear?

You haven't been paying close enough attention... :) The Horrors _should_
not appear for another 2000 years or so, but because of the GGD they have
the chance of coming through much too soon. The insect spirits have been
around in SR for a while (I don't know how long exactly, maybe it's
mentioned in the Universal Brotherhood module?) and even they were
apparently earlier than in ED.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
eMpty TV
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:17:33 GMT
"Steven A. Tinner" writes

> > For any who care, my next project to be published is a trilogy of SR
> books
> > called The Dragon Heart Saga. Book One, _Stranger Souls_, tells the story
> of
> > Ryan Mercury--Dunkelzahn main undercover operative as he tries to carry
> out
> > his mission in the aftermath of Dunkelzahn's assassination. Book Two,
> > _Clockwork Asylum_, continues with Ryan as he searches for those
> responsible
> > for the dragon's death,
This all sounds good.

> >and Book Three, _Beyond the Pale_, shows Ryan's
> > fight to take the Dragon Heart to the metaplanes in time to stop Mr.
> Darke.
Ah yes..... And why does the 'Threats' book not list the easy way to
solve a certain 'technical hitch' that those of us that have also
played Ed know 'like horrors can solve the problem'???? you don't
need any of the strange solutions suggested there.

>
> <Homer Simpson voice on>
> Mmmm . . . Mister Darke . . .
> Now my runners are going to pay dearly! :-)
>
Yeah those critters of his are fun arn't they 'shadowrunners flying
through the air with the greatest of ease!', and those are onlt
'constructs' :)

> Dragon Heart?
> Hopefully not something based of the movie of the same name?
No, it'll be Dunks heart, 'Dunklezahns secrets notes it may be found
at his lake louise residence, yep it wasn't in the dragon!, welcome
to real magic!

> Then again, gaining immortality from a deal with a dragon isn't that bad a
> deal after all . . .
>
That depends, now Dunks a/was 'nice'guy but i wouldn't try that on
Lofwry :)
>
Mark
Message no. 25
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:43:47 GMT
Ashelock writes
[trim mode on LOP]

> > taught blood magic to the azzies, or the ghost dance to the amerindians)).
> It wasn't the elves on either count. Reread WWE again... the indians were
> taught by Wovoka... who in reality is Thais.. Aina's son by Yrshgrathe (a
> horror). Thais motivation seem to have been attempting to protect the indians,
> because they had accepted him. He originally taught them the ritual in the
> 1800s and thus was responsible for the orignal Ghost Dancers.
correct.

> Most likely he
> taught it to Daniel as well.
I assumed that as well but it does not say anywhere though Ania does
say she warned them of the dangers of spilling so much blood.

> As for Aztlan and blood magic, not even the elves know where they learned
that
> from and they are somewhat concerned about it. (I'd like to say very
> concerned, but it's hard to know what they really think about anything.) I do
> have personal theory about it however. It's a bit convoluted so bear with me.
>
[still chopping]

> there must be a lot of magic/mana building up there. One of the immortals
> confirms this when discussing the summoning of blood spirits, stating that such
> things need a "certain enviroment" or mana level to be conjured.
>
Read the 'blood mage gestal' in threats, then go build yourself a
starship, you might feel in need of one :)

> My theory is this, that the Aztec Sun God was in reality a horror, probably
> Yrsthgrathe (take a look at pictures of him... there's a good one in ED, p269).
..... well Ania had a go at solving that problem.

> > Does anyone know if the bugs have any direct connection to the horrors? And
They are not the same thing 'They will devour all the bugs they can
find' Harlequin on 'are the enemy the bugs' HB bridge part 1.

> The bugs, along with wraiths, are considered a harbinger of the arrival of
the
> Horrors. In ED the Invae and Wraiths appeared in 150 TD... the Scrouge began
> 858 years later in 1008 TD. The part that really worries me is that according
> to my estimates... the wraiths and bugs should not have appeared in our world
> yet. They weren't due for another 1500 years!
>
Ok first notes of wraiths are too indistinct.
Bugs first appeared by at least as early as 2041 or so, see founding
date of the UB, in 'X3XL5' the file that goes with missing blood.

The bugs at least were due about 2250AD or so according to Harlequin
they are only 200-300 years early, again the ghost dance is guilty.
Horrors about 4000AD or so. A few get summoned or find a spike point
well before that, the first ones in Ed were seen 100's of years
before the scourge. Yes were it not for HB SR could have been planet
deep in the things by 2060.

Black Madonna contains another 'anti horror' operation.

but Ania got very silly in 'worlds without end', so that problem
needs patching.

Mark
Message no. 26
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:23:13 EST
On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:06:42 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>L Canthros said on 17:24/22 Jan 97...
>
>> Actually, I already knew most of that (sitting around on the list
>for six
>> months has really brought me up-to-date), except for the bit about
>> Hawai'i. But, the question which I was trying to ask is, if the
>Horrors
>> and the Bugs enter 2000 years apart from each other, just how long
>have
>> the Bugs been here, if the Horrors are starting to appear?
>
>You haven't been paying close enough attention... :) The Horrors
>_should_
>not appear for another 2000 years or so, but because of the GGD they
>have
>the chance of coming through much too soon. The insect spirits have
>been
>around in SR for a while (I don't know how long exactly, maybe it's
>mentioned in the Universal Brotherhood module?) and even they were
>apparently earlier than in ED.
>
Ah...that would explain it....

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 27
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA novels
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:45:03 -0800
Denzil Kruse wrote:

> You can complain, but remember that it could be worse...

It's bad enough that my life works that way, my fantasy shouldn't have
to comform to that belief.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about FASA novels, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!