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From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:00:17 +0200

Message no. 1 From: "Simon and Fiona" <sfuller@******.com.au>
> I'm pretty sure TSR coined GM as well. I think it was in Gamma World. TSR
> was obvoiusly run by computer nerds before computers were widespread. "DM,
> what's the AC of the NPC, I rolled my D12." Instead of "Hey Bob, What's
the
> baddie's armour like? I rolled my 12 sider."
> Anyway, since Shadowrun has been using GM for years and there was a role
> player magazine called GM, it's probably safe :?)

I heard they tried to trademark the word "Nazi" when they produced some WWII
game once,...sad. I also heard in the recordings of the Gencon Fasa
press-conference done by one of the members here (don't remember who, I
applogize), that FASA has the word "Matrix" trademarked. Did they ever
receive a healthy influx of cred from the Wachowski brothers for the movie
"Matrix" or did they let it slide?

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Shadowboy 88 shadowboy88@*******.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:13:06 CDT

Message no. 2 well I believe that FASA let the Matrix thing slide because it didn't have
anything to do with Shadowrun. However they used the terms such as "Jack
out" and as such also coined by FASA, but I don't think they cared, in fact
it probablly sent more people their way with the movie.

-Shadowboy88
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From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:14:13 -0700

Message no. 3 From: "Shadowboy 88" <shadowboy88@*******.com>
> well I believe that FASA let the Matrix thing slide because it didn't have
> anything to do with Shadowrun. However they used the terms such as "Jack
> out" and as such also coined by FASA, but I don't think they cared, in
fact
> it probablly sent more people their way with the movie.

Plus any legal challenge over such a trademark would probably have severely
damaged the company. Not to mention the movie had nothing to do with the
game (similar concepts =/ based on the game).

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

From:	Bull bull@***********.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:24:21 -0400

Message no. 4 At 04:00 PM 6/10/00 +0200, Dennis Steinmeijer wrote:

I also heard in the recordings of the Gencon Fasa
>press-conference done by one of the members here (don't remember who, I
>applogize), that FASA has the word "Matrix" trademarked. Did they ever
>receive a healthy influx of cred from the Wachowski brothers for the movie
>"Matrix" or did they let it slide?
>
Well... ACTUALLY...

There are a handful of differing copyrights out there. I'm not as famiiar
as I should be on the subject, but FASA has the Game Rights to the term
"Matrix", That's porbably one of the biggest reasons you never saw (Nor
may never see) a video game based on the movie (which is almost
unprecedented in this day and age, and even more so given the theme of the
movie :)). Between licensing the movie images/ideas/whatever from the
movie guys and the movie studio, they'd ALSO have to license the name from
FASA...

Bull

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From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:49:20 +0200

Message no. 5 According to Dennis Steinmeijer, at 16:00 on 10 Jun 00, the word on the
street was...

> I also heard in the recordings of the Gencon Fasa press-conference done
> by one of the members here (don't remember who, I applogize)

That was Mike Mulvihill.

> that FASA has the word "Matrix" trademarked. Did they ever receive a
> healthy influx of cred from the Wachowski brothers for the movie
> "Matrix" or did they let it slide?

What Mike was talking about at those GenCon '99 seminars is that FASA has
the word Matrix trademarked for game- and toy-related stuff, so that's why
there's no The Matrix action figures, computer games, and similar
merchandizing. Also that someone (IIRC Mort Weisman, but don't quote me on
that -- it's been 10 months :) figured it might be a good idea to release
a book titled The Matrix, just because they can.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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From:	Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:54:26 -0500

Message no. 6 On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:49:20 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
> What Mike was talking about at those GenCon '99 seminars is that
> FASA has
> the word Matrix trademarked for game- and toy-related stuff, so
> that's why
> there's no The Matrix action figures, computer games, and similar
> merchandizing.
<SNIP>

Actually, I've been debating whether or not to pick up one of The Matrix
action figures. (They've only made, IIRC, five of the characters ... Neo,
Trinity, what's-his-name-the-snitch, Agent Smith, and I don't know who
else.)

As for a video game, wouldn't that need Microsoft's approval or be done
by Microsoft? :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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From:	Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:56:55 -0700

Message no. 7 > From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

>
> What Mike was talking about at those GenCon '99 seminars is that FASA has
> the word Matrix trademarked for game- and toy-related stuff, so that's why
> there's no The Matrix action figures, computer games, and similar
> merchandizing.

But there *are* Matrix action figures. I know because I own
one, and have seen the others. <goes off to do web search>
Here's a picture of one of 'em:

http://www.tmspec.com/tmc/figures/matrix/MX-01.htm

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
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From:	vocenoctum@**.com vocenoctum@**.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:34:36 -0400

Message no. 8 On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:54:26 -0500 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
writes:
> As for a video game, wouldn't that need Microsoft's approval or be
> done
> by Microsoft? :)

See, thats the funny part, if they came out with a paper RPG, then FASA
would have a case, but it'd depend on the power of teh company.
But, the computer game would have to go through MS <evil grin> they got
money to burn (or, rather, delete...)

I wonder if the Justice Department will make them spin off their gaming
section into a company called FASA interactive? :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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From:	Shadowboy 88 shadowboy88@*******.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:23:57 CDT

Message no. 9 I don't see how FASA has any room to complain. I'm sure the movie "The
Matrix" (even how lame the ending was) sent more people their way asking
about shadowrun. Every stop to think why FASA came out the Shadowrun thrid
edition so closely after the movie was reliesed on video? And anyway I
don't really think FASA cares that much about copywrite infringment, they're
only number one, going to suffer a greater increase in sales of shadowrun,
but oh now that leaves number two, people will get more curious about FASA
and get more interested if shadowrun isn't for them in Earthdawn or
Battletech. So anyway, it'd blow my mind to see FASA raise a case against
the makers of "The Matirx" that's what'd hurt em'.

-Shadowboy88

That's my two cents chummer.
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From:	Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 23:40:14 -0400

Message no. 10 > I don't see how FASA has any room to complain. I'm sure the movie "The
> Matrix" (even how lame the ending was) sent more people their way asking
> about shadowrun. Every stop to think why FASA came out the Shadowrun thrid
> edition so closely after the movie was reliesed on video? And anyway I

3rd Edition was released at GenCON '98, well before "The Matrix"
even came out.

> don't really think FASA cares that much about copywrite infringment, they're
> only number one, going to suffer a greater increase in sales of shadowrun,
> but oh now that leaves number two, people will get more curious about FASA
> and get more interested if shadowrun isn't for them in Earthdawn or
> Battletech. So anyway, it'd blow my mind to see FASA raise a case against
> the makers of "The Matirx" that's what'd hurt em'.

Personally, I doubt "The Matrix" impacted the sales of
Shadowrun one bit. An idiot search for "The Matrix" (minus
quotes) turns up no hits for Shadowrun in the first 30 hits (the
furthest I was willing to look).
I'm not sure exactly what FASA's trademarks cover, but I doubt
that Warner Bros will go as far as blatantly breaking copyright
laws. I wouldn't put it past them to get into grey areas (i.e. toys)
and rely on their sheer size to keep FASA in it's place.
Conversely, FASA couldn't hope to pull off a lawsuit against
WB unless they were stupid and quite blatant in their copyright
infringement, (Even then, FASA might lose to WB's sheer mass)
so we won't be seeing any of that either

> -Shadowboy88

BTW, Shadowboy - This is not an in-character mailing list.

-- Fanguad

---------------------------------

"Tech Support, Greg speaking."
"QUICK! How do I change my wallpaper?"
"Well, it's pretty easy. I assume you want to change the
appearance of your desktop?"
"I need to get a picture off my background!"
"Oh, I see... Did someone accidentally set a porn picture
as their wallpaper, and their wife or mom is about
to show up?"
"PLEASE HURRY!"

-- Iliad, User Friendly

From:	Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:46:58 -0600

Message no. 11 At 22:23 6/10/00 -0500, Shadowboy 88 wrote:
>I don't see how FASA has any room to complain. I'm sure the movie "The
>Matrix" (even how lame the ending was) sent more people their way asking
>about shadowrun. Every stop to think why FASA came out the Shadowrun thrid
>edition so closely after the movie was reliesed on video?

SR3 came out in August, 1998. About a year before the motion picture The
Matrix came out, if I remember correctly.

>So anyway, it'd blow my mind to see FASA raise a case against
>the makers of "The Matirx" that's what'd hurt em'.

There's no reason for a case. FASA owns the trademark on the word "Matrix"
when related to gaming
(http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?ENG+ALL+3+980425+0+0+634711+F+11+30+1+fasa)
Nobody is stopping anyone from making a movie called Matrix, as long as it
isn't derived from FASA (or anyone elses) intellectual property, without
the appropriate permissions.

Adam
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From:	Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:58:01 +1000

Message no. 12 At 21:46 2000-06-10 -0600, Adam J wrote:
>
>Nobody is stopping anyone from making a movie called Matrix, as long as it
>isn't derived from FASA (or anyone elses) intellectual property, without
>the appropriate permissions.

Which leads me to the point:

I had heard -rumors- that The Matrix was in fact based off Chris Kubasik's
story in the back of Virtual Realities (1.0, that is) - i.e. the story
about Renny and Lucifer and Dr Halberstam, et. al. I know the movie rights
to that story had been sold, prior to "The Matrix" coming out, and I'd
heard that the movie is the eventual result of constant re-writes and
concept shifts, but that it -is- based on that story. I could easily
believe that; I'm just wondering if anyone has any more accurate info?

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:45:21 -0500

Message no. 13 :I had heard -rumors- that The Matrix was in fact based off Chris Kubasik's
:story in the back of Virtual Realities (1.0, that is) - i.e. the story
:about Renny and Lucifer and Dr Halberstam, et. al. I know the movie rights
:to that story had been sold, prior to "The Matrix" coming out, and I'd
:heard that the movie is the eventual result of constant re-writes and
:concept shifts, but that it -is- based on that story. I could easily
:believe that; I'm just wondering if anyone has any more accurate info?
:
:Lady Jestyr
: ~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

IIRC, what I recall from the Gencon seminar was that there was some link
between the two (maybe not a direct one, I'm not clear on that), but that
both sides got so feed up with the compatability issues and re-writes that
the director / producers just decided to scrap all the ties to shadowrun and
the Virtual Realities story, and start from scratch.

Mongoose

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From:	Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:55:18 +0300

Message no. 14 Shadowboy 88 wrote:
>
> well I believe that FASA let the Matrix thing slide because it didn't have
> anything to do with Shadowrun. However they used the terms such as "Jack
> out" and as such also coined by FASA, but I don't think they cared, in fact
> it probablly sent more people their way with the movie.
>
> -Shadowboy88

the first mention of the Matrix I know about is in the books of W.Gibson
(the Neuromancer, Count Zero,Virtual Light, etc). That was back in the
1980's. Isn't that where FASA got the name from?
Frankly I am surpised (since I am in a cyberpunk rpg list) no one has
mentioned these books yet.
Am I that old, or did people stop reading? :)
Come on out you Gibson fans, show yourselves! :P

the wiz

From:	Jkmiland@*.com Jkmiland@*.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 03:29:24 EDT

Message no. 15 In a message dated 6/10/00 8:24:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
shadowboy88@*******.com writes:

> I don't see how FASA has any room to complain. I'm sure the movie "The
> Matrix" (even how lame the ending was) sent more people their way asking
> about shadowrun.

I don't understand why some people think the movie 'The Matrix' would send
people towards FASA products if they were curious. Only RPGers like us are
likely to know about Shadowrun, and we're a very small segment of the public
(even the movie-going public). Joe Citizen isn't going to make any sort of
connection.

From:	MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 03:39:03 -0400

Message no. 16 Once upon a time, Fanguad wrote;

> I'm not sure exactly what FASA's trademarks cover, but I doubt
>that Warner Bros will go as far as blatantly breaking copyright
>laws. I wouldn't put it past them to get into grey areas (i.e. toys)
>and rely on their sheer size to keep FASA in it's place.

FASA's Matrix was originally going to be a Shadowrun boardgame when
the game first came out. Since the Matrix makes up an important and
identifiable element of Shadowrun it was trademarked for that anyway.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Bull bull@***********.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:56:02 -0400

Message no. 17 At 07:49 PM 6/10/00 +0200, Gurth wrote:

>What Mike was talking about at those GenCon '99 seminars is that FASA has
>the word Matrix trademarked for game- and toy-related stuff, so that's why
>there's no The Matrix action figures, computer games, and similar
>merchandizing. Also that someone (IIRC Mort Weisman, but don't quote me on
>that -- it's been 10 months :) figured it might be a good idea to release
>a book titled The Matrix, just because they can.
>
There ARE Matrix figures (Which has been pointed out by at least 5 others
now :)), and I believe the license that they have it a Game Trademark only.
Mike did say Game and Toys, but well... The copyright laws are tricky
things sometimes :]

Bull

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From:	Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 02:58:29 -0600

Message no. 18 At 22:56 6/10/00 -0400, Bull wrote:

> Mike did say Game and Toys, but well... The copyright laws are tricky
>things sometimes :]

Especially when you confuse Copyright and Trademark laws, Bull ;-)

The text of a Shadowrun book is copyrighted, the word Shadowrun is
trademarked, the process of dikoting something is patented.

Adam
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From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:04:26 +0200

Message no. 19 According to Rat, at 15:56 on 10 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> > What Mike was talking about at those GenCon '99 seminars is that FASA has
> > the word Matrix trademarked for game- and toy-related stuff, so that's why
> > there's no The Matrix action figures, computer games, and similar
> > merchandizing.
>
> But there *are* Matrix action figures. I know because I own
> one, and have seen the others. <goes off to do web search>
> Here's a picture of one of 'em:

Okay, okay, okay... Sue me for not researching the matter of action
figures in-depth because I feel too old to play with them...

*/me hides his Silent Bob action figure*

:)

--
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Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:04:25 +0200

Message no. 20 According to Bull, at 13:24 on 10 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> There are a handful of differing copyrights out there. I'm not as famiiar
> as I should be on the subject, but FASA has the Game Rights to the term
> "Matrix", That's porbably one of the biggest reasons you never saw (Nor
> may never see) a video game based on the movie (which is almost
> unprecedented in this day and age, and even more so given the theme of the
> movie :)). Between licensing the movie images/ideas/whatever from the
> movie guys and the movie studio, they'd ALSO have to license the name from
> FASA...

Which FASA also might not want to do, because computer games can be seen
as competing with FASA's products.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	vocenoctum@**.com vocenoctum@**.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:36:57 -0400

Message no. 21 On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:46:58 -0600 Adam J <adamj@*********.html.com>
writes:
> There's no reason for a case. FASA owns the trademark on the word
> "Matrix"
> when related to gaming
>
(http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?ENG+ALL+3+980425+0+0+634711+
F+11+30+1+fasa)
>
> Nobody is stopping anyone from making a movie called Matrix, as long
> as it
> isn't derived from FASA (or anyone elses) intellectual property,
> without
> the appropriate permissions.

Thanks for the link, it answers everything :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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From:	NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:40:53 -0500

Message no. 22 From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
Subject: Re: FASA Trademarks

> I wonder if the Justice Department will make them spin off their gaming
> section into a company called FASA interactive? :-)

And wouldn't THAT be just the joke of the new millenium?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)

From:	Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 11 Jun 00 13:29:37 -0500

Message no. 23 On 6/10/00 10:58 pm, Lady Jestyr said:

>At 21:46 2000-06-10 -0600, Adam J wrote:
>>
>>Nobody is stopping anyone from making a movie called Matrix, as long as it
>>isn't derived from FASA (or anyone elses) intellectual property, without
>>the appropriate permissions.
>
>Which leads me to the point:
>
>I had heard -rumors- that The Matrix was in fact based off Chris Kubasik's
>story in the back of Virtual Realities (1.0, that is) - i.e. the story
>about Renny and Lucifer and Dr Halberstam, et. al. I know the movie rights
>to that story had been sold, prior to "The Matrix" coming out, and I'd
>heard that the movie is the eventual result of constant re-writes and
>concept shifts, but that it -is- based on that story. I could easily
>believe that; I'm just wondering if anyone has any more accurate info?
>
>Lady Jestyr
> ~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~
>
>* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
>

I also remember these rumors and I thought I remembered that FASA was
paid some money by the movie company when they stopped working together
on the project. It could very easily be if that was the case that some or
all of that money was for use of the name "The Matrix".

Steve

From:	Aris "Deathspirit" Stremmenos aris@***************.de
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:11:36 +0300

Message no. 24 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFD413.899E8E00
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-7"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
>the first mention of the Matrix I know about is in the books of W.Gibson
>(the Neuromancer, Count Zero,Virtual Light, etc). That was back in the
>1980's. Isn't that where FASA got the name from?

Exactly...and not only the name, but the general style. I'm sure you've seen the other
movie based on Gibson's books, Johny Mnemonic. The similarities between the movie, the
books and Shadowrun's Matrix, are too many! Matrix, the movie, is too based on Gibson's
books, but not as Johny Mnemonic did. The creator's have said so.

>Frankly I am surpised (since I am in a cyberpunk rpg list) no one has
>mentioned these books yet.
>Am I that old, or did people stop reading? :)

You are too old, indeed, but that's irrelevant! :P

>Come on out you Gibson fans, show yourselves! :P

>the wiz

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<DIV><FONT size=2>Manolis Skoulikas wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>>the first mention of the Matrix I know about is
in the
books of W.Gibson<BR>>(the Neuromancer, Count Zero,Virtual Light, etc). That
was back in the<BR>>1980's. Isn't that where FASA got the name
from?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Exactly...and not only the name, but the general style.
I'm
sure you've seen the other movie based on Gibson's books, Johny Mnemonic. The
similarities between the movie, the books and Shadowrun's Matrix, are too many!
Matrix, the movie, is too based on Gibson's books, but not as Johny Mnemonic
did. The creator's have said so.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><BR>>Frankly I am surpised (since I am in
a cyberpunk rpg
list) no one has<BR>>mentioned these books yet.<BR>>Am I that
old, or did
people stop reading? :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>You are too old, indeed, but that's irrelevant!
:P</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><BR>>Come on out you Gibson fans, show
yourselves!
:P<BR><BR>>the
wiz<BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:55:47 +1000

Message no. 25 -----Original Message-----
From: Aris "Deathspirit" Stremmenos <aris@***************.de>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: FASA Trademarks

>Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
>>the first mention of the Matrix I know about is in the books of
W.Gibson
>>(the Neuromancer, Count Zero,Virtual Light, etc). That was back in the
>>1980's. Isn't that where FASA got the name from?

>Exactly...and not only the name, but the general style. I'm sure you've
seen the >other movie based on Gibson's books, Johny Mnemonic. The
similarities >between the movie, the books and Shadowrun's Matrix, are too
many! Matrix, >the movie, is too based on Gibson's books, but not as Johny
Mnemonic did. >The creator's have said so.

Shadowrun was going to originally be vanilla cyberpunk, based heavily on
Mr Gibson. Only Cyberpunk 2020 (or whatever it is called) beat them to the
printers, so to save their idea FASA inserted magic into the mix.

From:	Ahuizotl cuellare@*******.net.mx
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 03:01:36 -0500

Message no. 26 >
> the first mention of the Matrix I know about is in the books of W.Gibson
> (the Neuromancer, Count Zero,Virtual Light, etc). That was back in the
> 1980's. Isn't that where FASA got the name from?
> Frankly I am surpised (since I am in a cyberpunk rpg list) no one has
> mentioned these books yet.

Neuromancer matrix is not the same thing but its looks like shadowrun matrix
i supouse that they take the name from there

> Am I that old, or did people stop reading? :)

Whats that ??? read?? :-)

> Come on out you Gibson fans, show yourselves! :P

Ok ok i have my hands in the head please dont shoot.

>
> the wiz
>
the term Matrix: The set of all networks that can exchange electronic mail
either directly or through gateways. This includes the Internet. BITNET,
FigoNet, UUCP, and commertial services such as American Online, CompuServe,
Delphi (do you remember?), Prodigy, as well as other networks. This term was
coined by John S. Quarterman in his book "THE MATRIX" (Digital press 1990).

Ahuizotl

From:	Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:11:42 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 27 <snip>
> > -Shadowboy88
>
> BTW, Shadowboy - This is not an in-character mailing
> list.
>
> -- Fanguad

Actually I think Shadowboy's earlier use of Shadowrun
lingo simply accentuated the idea that a pc's
mentality that it's $#!t wouldn't stink without
acutally cussing, getting the point across and giving
insight into how the pc would have to think.

I wish the other players in my area would use more SR
lingo while playing, except when they suddenly
remember it's not a TV, it's a Trid...

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com

From:	Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:45:37 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 28 > >Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
> >>the first mention of the Matrix I know about
> is in the books of
> W.Gibson
> >>(the Neuromancer, Count Zero,Virtual Light,
> etc). That was back in the
> >>1980's. Isn't that where FASA got the name
> from?
>
> >Exactly...and not only the name, but the
> general style. I'm sure you've
> seen the >other movie based on Gibson's books, Johny
> Mnemonic. The
> similarities >between the movie, the books and
> Shadowrun's Matrix, are too
> many! Matrix, >the movie, is too based on Gibson's
> books, but not as Johny
> Mnemonic did. >The creator's have said so.
>
> Shadowrun was going to originally be vanilla
> cyberpunk, based heavily on
> Mr Gibson. Only Cyberpunk 2020 (or whatever it is
> called) beat them to the
> printers, so to save their idea FASA inserted magic
> into the mix.

I like the magic part...It spices things up.

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com

From:	Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:20:25 +0300

Message no. 29 Manolis Skoulikas wrote:

> the first mention of the Matrix I know about is in the books of W.Gibson
> (the Neuromancer, Count Zero,Virtual Light, etc). That was back in the
> 1980's. Isn't that where FASA got the name from?
> Frankly I am surpised (since I am in a cyberpunk rpg list) no one has
> mentioned these books yet.
> Am I that old, or did people stop reading? :)
> Come on out you Gibson fans, show yourselves! :P
>
> the wiz

I want to thank the <only?> Gibson fans in the list for showing
themselves

I thought I was alone! :)

Btw, Am I too old? :(

the wiz

From:	Jamz JamzTheMan@****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:38:07 -0500

Message no. 30 I thought he coined the term "Cyberspace" and not Matrix.

Jamz
JamzTheMan@****.com
http://members.home.net/jamztheman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Manolis Skoulikas" <great_worm@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: FASA Trademarks

> Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
>
> > the first mention of the Matrix I know about is in the books of W.Gibson
> > (the Neuromancer, Count Zero,Virtual Light, etc). That was back in the
> > 1980's. Isn't that where FASA got the name from?
> > Frankly I am surpised (since I am in a cyberpunk rpg list) no one has
> > mentioned these books yet.
> > Am I that old, or did people stop reading? :)
> > Come on out you Gibson fans, show yourselves! :P
> >
> > the wiz
>
> I want to thank the <only?> Gibson fans in the list for showing
> themselves
>
> I thought I was alone! :)
>
> Btw, Am I too old? :(
>
> the wiz
>
>

From:	Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:11:45 +1000

Message no. 31 At 16:20 2000-06-13 +0300, Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
>
>I want to thank the <only?> Gibson fans in the list for showing
>themselves
>
>I thought I was alone! :)

It's not that - it's that those who've been around on the list for a while
have seen the "Gibson Fandom" thread come up over and over and over again.
I'd reckon it probably comes up every six month - I've been on the list
since 1995, and there's only so many times I can say "Yeah! I love Gibson!
Gibson Is Great!" before I start getting sick of it. :-)

Which means that the newer list members do miss out, I guess, since those
of us who've seen the same discussions continually coming around tend not
to contribute any more. That doesn't mean we don't have opinions, though...
just that we're too lazy to keep writing 'em down. (That's what list
archives are for. ;-)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:00:08 -0400

Message no. 32 Lady Jestyr wrote:

> At 16:20 2000-06-13 +0300, Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
> >
> >I want to thank the <only?> Gibson fans in the list for showing
> >themselves
> >
> >I thought I was alone! :)
>
> It's not that - it's that those who've been around on the list for a while
> have seen the "Gibson Fandom" thread come up over and over and over again.
> I'd reckon it probably comes up every six month - I've been on the list
> since 1995, and there's only so many times I can say "Yeah! I love Gibson!
> Gibson Is Great!" before I start getting sick of it. :-)
>
> Which means that the newer list members do miss out, I guess, since those
> of us who've seen the same discussions continually coming around tend not
> to contribute any more. That doesn't mean we don't have opinions, though...
> just that we're too lazy to keep writing 'em down. (That's what list
> archives are for. ;-)
>

Then there's the reactionary "Gibson Sucks!" threads that inevitably pop up
when the Gibson Fan thread does. I think I'm gonna wait six months and then ask
the list if I should read Gibson...
*Strago realizes this is a bad idea, so he rolls the Die of Wackiness. He gets
a 1.*

>
> Lady Jestyr
> ~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~
>
> * jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:17:41 -0500

Message no. 33 From: Strago
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:00 PM

> Then there's the reactionary "Gibson Sucks!" threads that
> inevitably pop up when the Gibson Fan thread does.

I've been a good kid this time around, though.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:35:19 -0400

Message no. 34 Patrick Goodman wrote:

> From: Strago
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:00 PM
>
> > Then there's the reactionary "Gibson Sucks!" threads that
> > inevitably pop up when the Gibson Fan thread does.
>
> I've been a good kid this time around, though.
>

Well I, for one, thank you. And I thank the others who have restrained
themselves as well.

>
> --
> Patrick E. Goodman
> remo@***.net
> "I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+
m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M P

From:	Shadowboy 88 shadowboy88@*******.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:44:44 CDT

Message no. 35 I've heard of Gibson and yes we was a big contribution to the creation of
Shadowrun, so says The Art of Shadowrun "High tech and Low life" Cyberpunk
was based on a lot of things not only Gibsons novels but a good varitey of
movies as well. Blade runner for instance paved the way for shadowrun. I
haven't had the pleasure of reading neuromancer yet but Ive heard it's very
good. I'll buy it next time I'm at the book store.

-Shadowboy88
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:26:29 +0300

Message no. 36 Jamz wrote:
>
> I thought he coined the term "Cyberspace" and not Matrix.
>
"Case was twenty four. At twenty two, he'd been a cowboy, one of the
best in the sprawl.
He'd been trained by the best, by mc Coy Pauley and bobby Quine, legends
in the biz.
He'd operated in an almost permanent adrenaline high, a byproduct of
youth and proficiency,
jacked int a custom cyberspace deck that projected his disembodied
consciousness into the
consensual hallucination that was the matrix.

W.Gibson's "Neuromancer" page 5.

As you see there are a lot of SR lingos in Gibson's books.

jacked
cyberspace
deck
and of course "MATRIX"

Btw read these books people (if you haven't allready-many of you seem to
have not)
They are great!

for those interested the books are
Neuromancer
Count Zero
Virtual Light

(and others of course but this trilogy is his best work and VERY SR!)

the wiz

From:	Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:26:31 +0300

Message no. 37 Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> At 16:20 2000-06-13 +0300, Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
> >
> >I want to thank the <only?> Gibson fans in the list for showing
> >themselves
> >
> >I thought I was alone! :)
>
> It's not that - it's that those who've been around on the list for a while
> have seen the "Gibson Fandom" thread come up over and over and over again.
> I'd reckon it probably comes up every six month - I've been on the list
> since 1995, and there's only so many times I can say "Yeah! I love Gibson!
> Gibson Is Great!" before I start getting sick of it. :-)
>
I am relieved now. I was getting worried back there! :)

but what worries me most is that we had a huge thread with answers that
indicated that the writers were absolutely oblivious to the fact that
most SR lingos (like the matrix)were introduced by Gibson.
This is a cyberpunk list and such lack of traditionals "must read" is
making me worry about
the youngens. :)

<calls with big instructor's voice>
"READ GIBSON! READ GIBSON! READ GIBSON!"

At least read the summary for god's sake :)

this not a Gibson fandom mail. It is SR must read 101.
If you haven't read this please do. It will be good for you. (IMHO) :)

the wiz

From:	Jeremie Bouillon bouillon@****.dotcom.fr
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:58:25 +0200

Message no. 38 Le 17:26 25/06/00 +0300, Manolis Skoulikas a écrit:
>for those interested the books are
>Neuromancer
>Count Zero
>Virtual Light
>(and others of course but this trilogy is his best work and VERY SR!)

BTW it's Mona Lisa.

Not Virtual Light.

--
> Dis tu nous lâches un peu ? C'est un sujet assez important pour qu'on en
> parle, peu importe le groupe. C'est à cause de gens comme toi si c'est la
> merde sur le net. Tes leçons de nétiquéquette, tu peux te les...
OK?
-+- Ghost in : Guide du Neuneu d'Usenet - Terrorisme neuneulectuel -+-

From:	Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 25 Jun 00 16:21:37 -0500

Message no. 39 On 6/25/00 9:26 am, Manolis Skoulikas said:

>
>Btw read these books people (if you haven't allready-many of you seem to
>have not)
>They are great!
>
>for those interested the books are
>Neuromancer
>Count Zero
>Virtual Light
>
>(and others of course but this trilogy is his best work and VERY SR!)
>

Sorry I tried on several occasions and found it so bad I have never been
able to get through more than about half Neuromancer. About the only good
thing I could say about it was that it was not as bad as The Chronacles
of Thomas Covennant which I was never able to get past the 5th chapter of
the first book.

Not putting Gibson down but frankly his writing style does nothing for me.

From:	Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 25 Jun 00 16:55:00 -0500

Message no. 40 On 6/25/00 9:26 am, Manolis Skoulikas said:

>Lady Jestyr wrote:
>>
>> At 16:20 2000-06-13 +0300, Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
>> >
>> >I want to thank the <only?> Gibson fans in the list for showing
>> >themselves
>> >
>> >I thought I was alone! :)
>>
>> It's not that - it's that those who've been around on the list for a while
>> have seen the "Gibson Fandom" thread come up over and over and over
again.
>> I'd reckon it probably comes up every six month - I've been on the list
>> since 1995, and there's only so many times I can say "Yeah! I love Gibson!
>> Gibson Is Great!" before I start getting sick of it. :-)
>>

I'll try to avoid restarting this thread.

>I am relieved now. I was getting worried back there! :)
>
>but what worries me most is that we had a huge thread with answers that
>indicated that the writers were absolutely oblivious to the fact that
>most SR lingos (like the matrix)were introduced by Gibson.
>This is a cyberpunk list and such lack of traditionals "must read" is
>making me worry about
>the youngens. :)

Um Gibson may or may not have coined those phrases. I doubt it but since
I havn't researched their origins I'll give him the bennefit of the doubt
and say he may have. But except for that there wasn't a single thing
original about his "Cyberpunk" books. Every single element had been
around in other writers works for a while or was co existing in other
authors works at the same time. So it is not a must read, there are
PLENTY of other sources.

>
><calls with big instructor's voice>
>"READ GIBSON! READ GIBSON! READ GIBSON!"

No please, that could be considered a violation of the Geneva Convention.
I'd rather read a stack of Harleaquin Romance Novels (not the elf either).

>
>At least read the summary for god's sake :)
>
>this not a Gibson fandom mail. It is SR must read 101.
>If you haven't read this please do. It will be good for you. (IMHO) :)

No it is not SR must read 101.

You want to know why Sr is a more popular game than Cyberpunk? Because Sr
contains many different game genre's within it. When I run a Sr game
there is no way anyone watching would think it was a cyberpunk setting
because I don't like Cyberpunk settings. I don't like dark there is no
hope settings and Sr can certainly encompass a lighter feel within it
where Cyberpunk cannot. The books where I get my Sr inspiration from are
Friday by Robert Heinlen, Oath of Fealty by Niven and Pournell, or even
the Hobbit for a more magically oriented campaign.

The reason I play Shadowrun and the strength of the world is that you can
play your dark Gibsonesque Cyberpunk game and I can play my Lighter game
where the Megacorps are not evil just some of the people working for them
are and both make sense within the setting.

Steve

From:	Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:53:58 -0400

Message no. 41 Manolis Skoulikas wrote:

> Btw read these books people (if you haven't allready-many of you seem to
> have not)
> They are great!

I wouldn't call them great, but they weren't bad either.

> for those interested the books are
> Neuromancer
> Count Zero
> Virtual Light
>
> (and others of course but this trilogy is his best work and VERY SR!)

Neuromancer
Count Zero and
Mona Lisa Overdrive

All take place within a relative short span of time, but I do not
think they are officialy a trilogy. That is it doesn't take 3 books
to make a whole story. Yes they do share characters, but that alone
doesn't make it a trilogy.

Other books include:

Burning Chrome

Virtual Light and
Idorou (sp?) (I have not read this since I was greatly disappointed by
Virtual Light.)
"title unknown" (there was a third one in this grouping but I don't
know it's title)

This may not be a complete list, as I don't have my whole library here
to reference.

--
Iridios
--
Freedom defined is freedom denied. (Illuminatus)

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
7:48:02 PM/211:00:00 (1) [no thud]

From:	Jkmiland@*.com Jkmiland@*.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:55:22 EDT

Message no. 42 In a message dated 6/25/00 4:46:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
iridios@********.net writes:

> All take place within a relative short span of time, but I do not
> think they are officialy a trilogy. That is it doesn't take 3 books
> to make a whole story. Yes they do share characters, but that alone
> doesn't make it a trilogy.

True--what makes it a trilogy is that not only are characters shared in the
storyline, but the stories interweave; it's a "story arc." Each novel can be
read as a stand-alone, but essentially they are meant as a trilogy.

> Other books include:
>
> Burning Chrome

... a collection of short stories, not all of which are cyberpunk related.
It also includes "Johnny Mnemonic," which was a pretty bad movie but, IMHO, a
very good story.

> Virtual Light and
> Idorou (sp?) (I have not read this since I was greatly disappointed by
> Virtual Light.)
> "title unknown" (there was a third one in this grouping but I don't
> know it's title)

Virtual Light,
Idoru (no second 'O'), and
All Tomorrow's Parties

These aren't really cyberpunk in the 'dark megacorporate world' sense that
most people are familiar with, but Gibson takes an interesting look at the
social aspect of that world. (Idoru, especially--much of the storyline deals
with fans of a particular musician; it's an unwitting play on acts like
Britney Spears and the Backstreet Boys.)

From:	paul collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject:	FASA Trademarks
Date:	Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:42:46 +1000

Message no. 43 > No please, that could be considered a violation of the Geneva Convention.
> I'd rather read a stack of Harleaquin Romance Novels (not the elf either).

AHHHHH!!!!!!!!. Visions of a certain IE enveloped in pick chiffon. Oh the
humanity.

Annachie

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